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Why Was Robb Such An Awful Diplomat?


shadeofthemorning

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10 minutes ago, divica said:

But the facts is that when he explained himself to his mother he didn t mention anything about being married because he was worried about a snow problem. We don t even know if he doesn t have a son with some whore he doesn t know about… Without some kind of evidence it is kind of pointless to debate these things...

Of course he doesn't mention that to his mother, if that were the case.

"Yeah, mom, I felt honor bound to wed this girl I wasn't in love with, and also because I don't want to end up in a situation like dad, and my wife being nasty to my Snow bastard." Now that would not be tactful, would it?

It's SPECULATION... but it's not pointless speculation, even if we will never have an answer to it. Asking questions is important, even if you can't always "answer" the question.

If you don't care for the question, then just ignore my post and move on. But who gave you the right to decide what ponderings and speculations are worthwhile my time and whomever else who wonders about Robb's motivations.

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Robb, like Jon, was tone deaf to how others around them feel.  Robb was diplomatic when he needed to be.  He was  humble and took insults when he needed to.  But when called to deliver judgment and justice?  He failed as miserably as Jon.  Robb chose Jeyne over his oath and insulted a family who had already bled for him.  Jon failed to realize how strongly the men of the watch would honor their vows. They were better men than he was.  Robb failed politically because he was not good at reading people and situations.  He was deaf.  

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1 hour ago, divica said:

He could have traded Jaime way before renly died. 

“I had heard that Queen Cersei has the Hand’s daughters,” Lefford said hopefully. “If we give the lad his sisters back . . . ”

Ser Addam snorted disdainfully. “He would have to be an utter ass to trade Jaime Lannister’s life for two girls.”

1 hour ago, divica said:

He would trade Jaime for his sisters and potentially gain thousands of men. Do you think rickard wouldn t be happy to have more men and be able to win the war? 

 The decision to not trade Jaime for his sisters is another exemple of bad political decisions. At the time he didn t see that they could give him more men for his army through marriage...

No he couldn't, Robb is just wishing a positive scenario in mid of dispair, as readers we know that it wasn't the case.

The Tyrells wanted a queen of the seven kingdoms, Mace does not even care about the north as we saw he say himself.

Lord Redwyne laughed. “What is there north of the Neck that any sane man would want? If Greyjoy will trade swords and sails for stone and snow, I say do it, and count ourselves lucky.”

“Truly,” agreed Mace Tyrell.

 

1 hour ago, divica said:

Debatable. Stannis sees himself as the king of the SEVEN kingdoms and from his pov considerst robb a traitor. He has no good reason to accept robb's Independence because stannis thins he is the rightful heir and therefore robb owes him his allegiance...

Stannis was in the wrong there and behave like a bitter child. He didn't just ignored Robb's but also the Vale and Dorne for no reason. He rumbled the whole prologue about how Robert loved Ned and not him, and how he was wronged by him, than his bitter about Renly and about not being loved by the stormlords...

He ignored Cressen and once Catelyn showed up he insults Eddard for no reason and threatned Robb when was proposed an alliance... great display of diplomacy right there.

Stannis was a idiot self centered, and is now having to eat several humble pies in the north, fighting for "Ned's girls", the man he envy so much.

1 hour ago, divica said:

This isn t true. He could have sent him to the Wall or kept him prisoner to ensure the karstarks remained loyal. He decided to do what he thought was right even though it was an awfull political decision.

Karstark already had sent his cavalry to hunt Jaime, and his infantry remained in control. Sparing or killing Rickard  has no effect what so ever on Robb's army or his fate.

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Sending the wrong emissary to the Iron Isles despite warnings against his choice was definitely an error, though perhaps not as much of one as one might think at first blush, as the Greyjoys were already arming and gathering their ships before Theon was sent to them. Balon seemed likely to go to war without any concern for his sole surviving son. Still, it was something Robb shouldn't have done, perhaps accelerating Balon's plans and, of course, leading to the capture and ultimate razing of Winterfell.

 

Robb was proposing an alliance, sending Theon was a great show of good faith, and we know from Theon own POV that he had all the intention to make this alliance. 

Little Finger did the same thing when he was negotiating with the Tyrells, he wanted to return both of the Redwynes twins. 

Balon was the idiot that not only rejected the only alliance possible for him, but also decided to attack a place he had no chance to conquer in the middle of winter, and at the same time making all the other kings his enemies... 

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23 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

No he couldn't, Robb is just wishing a positive scenario in mid of dispair, as readers we know that it wasn't the case.

The Tyrells wanted a queen of the seven kingdoms, Mace does not even care about the north as we saw he say himself.

First, it is a matter of perspective. Trading Jaime for 2 girls is a bad deal. Trading Jaime for 1 or 2 marriage aliances that gains him several thousand men is a good deal.

Second, why are you only focusing on major houses? Aren t there houses like the freys, royces, tarlys, hightower and the like that might be interested in a marriage with the kitn sister and have a few thousand soldiers?

26 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Stannis was in the wrong there and behave like a bitter child. He didn't just ignored Robb's but also the Vale and Dorne for no reason. He rumbled the whole prologue about how Robert loved Ned and not him, and how he was wronged by him, than his bitter about Renly and about not being loved by the stormlords...

He ignored Cressen and once Catelyn showed up he insults Eddard for no reason and threatned Robb when was proposed an alliance... great display of diplomacy right there.

Stannis was a idiot self centered, and is now having to eat several humble pies in the north, fighting for "Ned's girls", the man he envy so much.

It is very debatable. I am not saying stannis was smart or diplomatic. But he actually had reasons to not agree to robb being king and thinking of him as a traitor. Not even renly agrees to him being king… It would remain an empty title.

29 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Karstark already had sent his cavalry to hunt Jaime, and his infantry remained in control. Sparing or killing Rickard  has no effect what so ever on Robb's army or his fate

I have no idea what you are talking about. 

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27 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Balon was the idiot that not only rejected the only alliance possible for him, but also decided to attack a place he had no chance to conquer in the middle of winter, and at the same time making all the other kings his enemies...

Balon was an idiot. No argument. However what do you call a person that sends an hostage with a lot of knowledge about the north to a person that hates the starks?

And I think robb had to know that balon didn t like the starks no?

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Lately I've been wondering whether Robb's motivation for marrying Jeyne Westerling has anything to do with how he witnessed Jon being treated by Catelyn.

We know he wasn't in love with Jeyne Westerling at the time. He gave in to seeking comfort, realizing the morning after what he had done and what the potential consequence would be: in his mind Jeyne could end up carrying his child, and then he'd have to raise that child as a bastard with a Frey wife being suspicious of him. It's something he never explains to Catelyn, but that's hardly a reason he could have told his mother.

That may be part of it, but understand that Robb was also under the influence of one of grandma Maggie's love potions, so he wasn't in his right mind at the time.

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

That may be part of it, but understand that Robb was also under the influence of one of grandma Maggie's love potions, so he wasn't in his right mind at the time.

I had always understood it as Robb being under the influence of the love potion when he ended up sleeping with her, which is not the same thing as deciding to marry a wman you claim to not have been in love with, despite under the influence of a love potion.

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10 hours ago, shadeofthemorning said:

It seems like the thought process required to be a good war strategist is extremely similar to the thought process required to be a good politician/diplomat. If that’s the case, why was Robb such an awful politician? You would think that he would employ some of the techniques he used strategically in battle to the political playing field. I suppose you could make the argument that Robb was an aggressor in war, and being an aggressor in diplomacy doesn’t work the same way as being an aggressor on the battlefield does, but still it doesn’t explain how someone so tactically gifted would be so stupid as far as diplomacy goes, considering how similar war and politics tend to be. Does anybody have a good answer for this?

Robb is only 15 at the time, and his battle strategy and tactics likely came from the Blackfish and some of the other lords rather than Robb.

It's kind of a running theme in history, though, that the battle commanders who tend to be very effective at overthrowing existing governments often find themselves out of their depth when it comes to politics and managing that government. They both require markedly different skillsets, and few people possess both of them to any great degree. One of those few, of course, was George Washington.

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1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

I had always understood it as Robb being under the influence of the love potion when he ended up sleeping with her, which is not the same thing as deciding to marry a wman you claim to not have been in love with, despite under the influence of a love potion.

Hard to say exactly when it stopped. I would imagine Sybelle would keep dosing him up until the wedding. After that, who cares?

I don't recall Robb ever claiming not to be in love, or had never been in love, with Jeyen. As time goes by, we see him becoming increasingly distant and even frustrated from/with her, but I don't think he ever comes out and says this. Did he?

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10 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Hard to say exactly when it stopped. I would imagine Sybelle would keep dosing him up until the wedding. After that, who cares?

I don't recall Robb ever claiming not to be in love, or had never been in love, with Jeyen. As time goes by, we see him becoming increasingly distant and even frustrated from/with her, but I don't think he ever comes out and says this. Did he?

Went back and this is the quote to his mother

Quote
"I took her castle and she took my heart." Robb smiled. "The Crag was weakly garrisoned, so we took it by storm one night. Black Walder and the Smalljon led scaling parties over the walls, while I broke the main gate with a ram. I took an arrow in the arm just before Ser Rolph yielded us the castle. It seemed nothing at first, but it festered. Jeyne had me taken to her own bed, and she nursed me until the fever passed. And she was with me when the Greatjon brought me the news of . . . of Winterfell. Bran and Rickon." He seemed to have trouble saying his brothers' names. "That night, she . . . she comforted me, Mother."
Catelyn did not need to be told what sort of comfort Jeyne Westerling had offered her son. "And you wed her the next day."
He looked her in the eyes, proud and miserable all at once. "It was the only honorable thing to do. She's gentle and sweet, Mother, she will make me a good wife."

He indeed does not say he hadn't fallen in love with her, but the "it was the only honorable thing to do," and his "she's gentle and sweet," never much sounds like a man in love. I do think he grows to love Jeyne, but the way he speaks of her, even when defending her, it doesn't sound like a man in love.

So, you might be right that if Planetos allows for such a potion to work some type of love spell (and I'm not sure it does), then it has to be taken into account.

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He's 14-15 years old with no exposure to politics outside the north. There's no reason to expect him to be good at diplomacy. George got this part right. 

But, if George had wanted to go a different way with Robb's character and the course of the story, he could have put a more politically savvy character next to him, either a Northern Lord or one from the Riverlands or even the Vale. Maybe when Ned and Robert were in the Vale, there was actually a third Lordling that was fostering there as well, and all three became fast friends, and this third friend, Lord So and So from Such and Such becomes Robb's chief advisor and keeps him from major fuckups like his marriage to the Westerling girl, and really teaches him how to be a king. That's something George could have done if he'd wanted Robb's story to go in a more sophisticated direction politically, if he'd wanted Robb to become a "player" on the level of Tywin Lannister, Varys, or Littlefinger. 

But he didn't want that. So he made Robb into this tactically brilliant, but doomed character.

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1 hour ago, divica said:

First, it is a matter of perspective. Trading Jaime for 2 girls is a bad deal. Trading Jaime for 1 or 2 marriage aliances that gains him several thousand men is a good deal.

Second, why are you only focusing on major houses? Aren t there houses like the freys, royces, tarlys, hightower and the like that might be interested in a marriage with the kitn sister and have a few thousand soldiers?

To what house would he use Sansa to marry into?

Westerlands and Ironborns are his enemies.

The reach lords doesn't care about the north, as we already saw Redwyne and Tyrell refusing the idea, Tarly, would not betrayl his liege as we saw in Renly's death, and this is the same for Rowan, Oakheart and Hightower.

Dorne is too far away and already tooked the bethrothal to Myrcella.

And no lord in the Vale would risk being cut off from his lands by the bloody gate.

1 hour ago, divica said:

It is very debatable. I am not saying stannis was smart or diplomatic. But he actually had reasons to not agree to robb being king and thinking of him as a traitor. Not even renly agrees to him being king… It would remain an empty title.

Stannis failed to realize that the IT has killed Robb's father, grandfather, aunt, uncle, has imprisoned his sisters and stole Ice, a heirdom of his house...

Just to put in comparison, Lyonnel Baratheon declared himself king, after a broken bethrothal by Aegon V...

If Stannis had any sense he would realize the North grievances and negotiate. Instead he became mad for Robb not following him for a kingship he didn't even declare. Stannis is too self centered.

1 hour ago, divica said:

Balon was an idiot. No argument. However what do you call a person that sends an hostage with a lot of knowledge about the north to a person that hates the starks?

 And I think robb had to know that balon didn t like the starks no?

Robb knows that Balon wants his independence, and he is realizes that they have the same goal at the moment, break free from the IT. Robb also knows that Theon is Balon's heir, and his best friend and expected as any logical human being that Balon would have cared for his son and his strategic goals and take the said alliance. Theon was more than just a emisary, he was a living prof of goodwill to make the alliance.

Why Balon hates the Starks? and why should Robb know this? 

Balon was defeated and humiliated by Robert, if anything Balon has more reason to hate Joffrey "his son" and Stannis the one that defeated them in the sea.

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2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb did listened to Catelyn several times and it backfired on him. Like choosing Roose to lead an army...

He was going to have the Greatjon lead it instead, which probably would have led to that whole host being destroyed. Neither she nor Robb (nor, indeed, Eddard) knew of Roose Bolton's perfidy. This is an 

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb was proposing an alliance, sending Theon was a great show of good faith,

Faith in a person whom could only be trusted insofar that it was believed he placed value on the life of his son. Giving that son to him to negotiate was an obvious error. Better to send some good lord high in Robb's trust, and let Theon rejoin his father only after the alliance was secured and solid.

 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

and we know from Theon own POV that he had all the intention to make this alliance. 

Sure. Balon was the issue. To whatever degree he held off his attack because he had some lingering thought for Theon, sending Theon right into his hands was disasterous.

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Little Finger did the same thing when he was negotiating with the Tyrells, he wanted to return both of the Redwynes twins. 

Very different situations. All the Lannisters could offer the Redwynes were the sons. Robb was offering much more -- giving him Theon to bear the message was, again, a mistake. 

2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Balon was the idiot that not only rejected the only alliance possible for him, but also decided to attack a place he had no chance to conquer in the middle of winter, and at the same time making all the other kings his enemies... 

 

Even so. Robb was wrong to trust that sending Theon was the right choice, and truth be told he was wrong to trust in Theon, whose resentments and self-interest made him immediately turn his cloak. Catelyn was entirely right on this.

 

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3 minutes ago, Ran said:

He was going to have the Greatjon lead it instead, which probably would have led to that whole host being destroyed. Neither she nor Robb (nor, indeed, Eddard) knew of Roose Bolton's perfidy. This is an 

 

Roose was a disaster, he throw the battle without any need and made everything on his power to allow Tywin a easy victory. Exausted his army, when he had the element of surprise he stopped, gave up on high ground and fired arrows at his own men, for a battle that wasn't needed.

And why Greatjon would be such a disaster? his idea was the exactly same that Roose tried: catch Tywin by surprise, but unlike Roose I don't see him betraying Robb or trowing the battle.

Catelyn made several mistakes herself, starting the whole mess by kidnaping Tyrion without preparing the north like Eddard asked her, losing Tyrion, and later on freeing Jaime.

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1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

Roose was a disaster, he throw the battle without any need and made everything on his power to allow Tywin a easy victory. Exausted his army, when he had the element of surprise he stopped, gave up on high ground and fired arrows at his own men, for a battle that wasn't needed.

All things that Robb, as commander of the forces he had brought south, should have paid attention to. It's actually an indictment of him that once he gave Bolton the command he basically completely abrogated all responsibility for what Bolton did. 

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

And why Greatjon would be such a disaster? his idea was the exactly same that Roose tried: catch Tywin by surprise, but unlike Roose I don't see him betraying Robb or trowing the battle.

The Greatjon wouldn't have deliberately placed rivals in harm's way, but he would instead likely have pushed for aggression to the point where few of the forces would have been able to retreat, I expect. A destroyed host would have meant no pressure from that side of things helping to pin Tywin Lannister in place.

Both Robb and Catelyn believed Roose was loyal. They both believed Theon was loyal, more or less. But what Catelyn was right about was that Balon Greyjoy was not a man to look kindly on Robb under any circumstances, and that by giving him Theon it weakened Robb's ability to leverage him. It was a real mistake.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

The Greatjon wouldn't have deliberately placed rivals in harm's way, but he would instead likely have pushed for aggression to the point where few of the forces would have been able to retreat, I expect. A destroyed host would have meant no pressure from that side of things helping to pin Tywin Lannister in place.

 

What makes you said that? Greatjon had his own command on Robb's campaing in the Westerlands and it never said that he performed poorly, Robb even let him takes the van on his last plan to take the Moat. Greatjon also had to deal more with wildlings than any other lord, and probably took part on Robert's Rebellion and the Greyjoy revolt. 

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17 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Went back and this is the quote to his mother

He indeed does not say he hadn't fallen in love with her, but the "it was the only honorable thing to do," and his "she's gentle and sweet," never much sounds like a man in love. I do think he grows to love Jeyne, but the way he speaks of her, even when defending her, it doesn't sound like a man in love.

So, you might be right that if Planetos allows for such a potion to work some type of love spell (and I'm not sure it does), then it has to be taken into account.

Awesome. Thanks. I'll put that conversation in the vault. It does indeed look like he's making excuses for why he married her. Even the bit about "she took my heart" seems to imply that he never actually gave it to her.

And I have no doubt that Maggy's love potions are legit. She wouldn't have lasted very long in Lannisport if she was a fraud. And here eerily accurate predictions for both Cersei and Melara shows that she was the real deal.

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