Why Was Robb Such An Awful Diplomat?

[frenin]

17 hours ago, Chris Mormont said:

Robb was not a politician but neither was Ned.  If anyone's political follies created the mess it was Ned for telling Cersie what he knew about the incest. 

Robb knew of honor, and that got him in trouble with Karstark, with Jeyne, and with Jamie.

Ned is a good politician, what he said to Cersei was motivated by the urge to sabe her children, it was a horrible call, but Ned simply wasn't thinking straight.

[shadeofthemorning]

I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that Stannis was a valuable ally for Robb and that disregarding him was another one of his mistakes. I disagree with that, his tepid relationship with Stannis was one of the only things I agreed with. Stannis was a joke, even before he lost the Battle of the Blackwater. Aligning himself with somebody that everyone in the Seven Kingdoms (save the idiotic Ned and maybe one or two others) views as at best a power hungry block of ice and at worst a madman would have made a mockery of his claim as King in the North. People already doubted Robb as a king, he didn’t need to go making friends with lunatics on top of that.

[Chris Mormont]

On 11/21/2019 at 7:30 AM, frenin said:

Ned is a good politician, what he said to Cersei was motivated by the urge to sabe her children,

A good politician doesn't get himself killed for being kind. 

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Chris Mormont said:

A good politician doesn't get himself killed for being kind. 

 

I don't even know what that means.

[Marysa Blackfyre]

Robb was thrown into a context too much bigger than him, where he has sinned to be too confident towards the people around him and too naive. Moreover, the Starks are not known for their political intelligence.

[Bernie Mac]

On 11/18/2019 at 8:34 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Robb did listened to Catelyn several times and it backfired on him. Like choosing Roose to lead an army...

 

She wanted Roose to lead a battle, which did not backfire on Robb. At no point did she tell Robb to leave the majority of his army with Roose indefinitely. That is not on Cat, quite the opposite in fact as she suggested peace after Riverrun, not a continuation of the war.

[Bernie Mac]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:57 PM, Arthur Peres said:

Roose was a disaster,

According to who in the series?

Robb does not think Roose was a disaster at the Battle of the Green Fork, as he is happy to have him remain in charge and wants him to lead a third of his troops when he is retaking Moat Cailin.

We don't hear any grumblings from the Blackfish, his chief of scouts and second in command, or any of the other Lords present.

Neither Tywin or Tyrion think Roose messed up. Tywin is actually angry that the Northern army did not fall into his trap and escaped with more men.

The nobles with Roose; Glover, Tallhart and Freys, are not blaming Roose for that defeat nor think he was disastrous. Disastrous commanders who are seen as at fault for the loss of huge number of their army don't usually have the same level of support Roose did from his host.

No one, not Robb's faction, Tywin's faction of Roose's own host, has came to the conclusion that Roose was disastrous at the Battle of the Green Fork.

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he throw the battle without any need

According to who? Which character in the books makes this claim?

I see this repeated as fact by so many in the fandom and I'd love to know which character gives this impression in the books?

There was a very real need. Tywin needed to be occupied if Robb was to have a chance of freeing Riverrun.

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and made everything on his power to allow Tywin a easy victory.

This is just idle speculation. Why does Robb, the Blackfish or any of the nobles in Roose's own command not realize this?

What incentive does Roose have to do this? Defeat can easily turn into a rout and his own death. There is zero reason for Roose to do this. It makes no logical sense and nothing in the books actually suggests this is the case

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Exausted his army,

He had to. His foot had to somehow beat Robb's cavalry to the central Riverlands. That is the job he was given.

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when he had the element of surprise he stopped,

Yes. The majority of medieval armies have to do this when they come into distance of their enemy. They stop and get into formation.

He needs to stop, organize and know where their enemy is coming from, how they are organized and which parts of the land are vulnerable to them. He can't march and do this. Especially not in enemy territory.  Quite a few notable English defeats came doing just that, marching into the unknown.

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gave up on high ground and fired arrows at his own men, for a battle that wasn't needed.

Where is any of this claimed in the books.

• We have no idea about the majority of the territory in this battle. It baffles me how no more than two paragraphs of the geography is enough for some to tell Roose what he did wrong
• We don't know who fired the arrows, it was the fog of war, likely both sides. Tyrion or Tywin certainly don't make any mention of the Northern army deliberately killing each other. Given the battle is from Tyrion's POV if it is not obvious to him that Roose is sabotaging the war, how can it be to you?
• If the battle was not needed then why does Robb not act in the same way he acted when Edmure or Glover gave battles that were not needed?

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And why Greatjon would be such a disaster? his idea was the exactly same that Roose tried: catch Tywin by surprise, but unlike Roose I don't see him betraying Robb or trowing the battle.

Because the Greatjon is vainglorious. He was exactly the type of commander that Tywin was hoping for.

Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout.

Roose was cautious, his caution meant more of the Northmen were spared. The Greatjon is perfect for leading the Van, when you want a ferocious attack

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Catelyn made several mistakes herself, starting the whole mess by kidnaping Tyrion

True.

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without preparing the north like Eddard asked her,

She could hardly do that when the North had been raised and was marching to war by the time she arrived. That is not on Cat, but the timeline.

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losing Tyrion,

She did not lose him, he was released. Though I think you are quibbling here, you can't really count Tyrion twice.

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and later on freeing Jaime.

True. She made two huge errors. Not several, though.

[divica]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

True. She made two huge errors. Not several, though.

I think she did another one. 

She should have forgotten about Brienne and Don t leave Renly's camp without an alliance with the tyrells. She could offer Sansa's hand and Robb support if they wanted to conquer the Iron Throne. 

 

And for me the big problem about roose is that nobody thought about he conserved most of his troops and the other lords lost men. This should have raised questions about him

[The Young Maester]

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. The majority of medieval armies have to do this when they come into distance of their enemy. They stop and get into formation.

He needs to stop, organize and know where their enemy is coming from, how they are organized and which parts of the land are vulnerable to them. He can't march and do this. Especially not in enemy territory.  Quite a few notable English defeats came doing just that, marching into the unknown.

Roose already formed up his army like a mile away from Lannister camp. The Northmen started blowing horns whilst they waited for Tywin to prepare his lines and formations.

It dosent take that long to assess the land when you have had plenty of time to send scouts and have full knowledge of the fields of the green fork. 

The battle of the green fork lacked the cunning we have witnessed at Harrenhal and the Red wedding. 
Im not of the belief that he botched the battle but more that he didn’t try to win. He knew he had no chances of winning but at the same time he got lazy when he sent his infantry down the hill to meet the incoming cavalry. 
Roose was playing it smart. He was weakening his home rivals whilst at the same time playing both sides in case Robb got captured. He probably thought Robb was a green boy that was going to fail at his mission (fair enough since Robb was leading an army into a risky situation against a commander much more experienced than him). By weakening the rest of the army he prepared himself in case he had to submit to Tywin. But after robbs success we get to witness Roose’s smart tactical thinking and cautious approach. Since at this point the Lannister’s are losing the war and the north had a chance at winning. 

Taking up a defensive position at the hill he was on would’ve lessened casualties. 

[Bernie Mac]

33 minutes ago, divica said:

I think she did another one. 

She should have forgotten about Brienne and Don t leave Renly's camp without an alliance with the tyrells.

Renly was going to make her his 'guest'. His lords would have done the same and given they were about to join up with the Crown it would have been yet another hostage, one that Robb would possibly have to concede to.

Renly made it clear what was going to happen to Cat, she has no reason to believe that the same would not be true of the Tyrells or Stannis.

33 minutes ago, divica said:

 

She could offer Sansa's hand and Robb support if they wanted to conquer the Iron Throne. 

Could she? It seems she was not authorized to do so, to set aside Robb's crown.  She can hardly barter with Sansa's hand in marriage, given Sansa was in the control of another faction and already betrothed.

33 minutes ago, divica said:

 

And for me the big problem about roose is that nobody thought about he conserved most of his troops and the other lords lost men. This should have raised questions about him

That is why he was picked, because he was cautious. This is not exactly unheard of in these circumstances. Tywin does the same at the Green Fork, he puts the Mountain Clans in the Vanguard, Jaime does the same when telling the Blackfish of how he will take Riverrun, Riverland men in first, then Frey and then Westerland.

Roose having his own men with him in the Rearguard would be expected. I'd be flabbergasted if this was not unknown or unexpected from Robb's camp. Roose was picked because Robb needed men to survive that battle and defend the King's Road if things go wrong. In regards to the battle of the Green Fork he did his job as well as could be expected.

[Bernie Mac]

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Roose already formed up his army like a mile away from Lannister camp. The Northmen started blowing horns whilst they waited for Tywin to prepare his lines and formations.

No. This is constantly said in the fandom and every time someone corrects this misconception it seems to be ignored.

… and woke in darkness to the blare of trumpets. Shae was shaking him by the shoulder. "M'lord," she whispered. "Wake up, m'lord. I'm frightened."

Groggy, he sat up and threw back the blanket. The horns called through the night, wild and urgent, a cry that said hurry hurry hurry. He heard shouts, the clatter of spears, the whicker of horses, though nothing yet that spoke to him of fighting. "My lord father's trumpets," he said.

 

You and others have been duped into believing that the horns were by Roose. This is what happens when a fandom becomes an echo chamber. People tend to ignore or downvote(if on Reddit) any evidence that contradicts their pet theories. For more than a decade people have been claiming that the horns were by the Northmen and in many of those discussions there would be someone pointing out that the books explicitly point out that they are wrong.

 

 

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

It dosent take that long to assess the land when you have had plenty of time to send scouts and have full knowledge of the fields of the green fork. 

How long? Tell me how long it takes and how long Roose had.

I am puzzled how you can claim this given the lack of information we have on this subject. There is not one POV in Roose's camp. All of our information comes from a groggy Tyrion awoken early in the early morning.

Why does Tyrion not come to the same conclusion that you have?

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

The battle of the green fork lacked the cunning we have witnessed at Harrenhal and the Red wedding. 

Yes. Do I really need to explain why?

Roose had the jump on both of those events, having the Brave Companions and Freys on the 'inside' to get his way. Roose does not have that opportunity here. His objective is to get to the Green Fork in time before Robb's army is spotted and Tywin is able to move and reinforce Jaime's.

Robb could not be sure that;

• None of Jaime's scouts would spot what he was doing
• That Jaime would be idiotic enough to give battle himself with only a fraction of his forces
• That none of his army would alert the sleeping camp that they were under attack

Robb's plan went 100% smoothly, but any commander with a smidgen of common sense would realize that contingency plans are needed in case something does not go to plan. Roose and the Northern foot was that contingency plan. He was needed to engage with Tywin.

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Im not of the belief that he botched the battle but more that he didn’t try to win.

The author's own words suggest he did want to win.

GRRM: And the best sword is the one that cuts both ways, he might tell you. Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened. The only way he could lose there would be if were captured or slain himself, and he did his best to minimize the chances of that.

Roose wanted victory, but victory, given how outmatched the Northern army was, was always a longshot.

 

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

He knew he had no chances of winning but at the same time he got lazy when he sent his infantry down the hill to meet the incoming cavalry. 

Again, how do you know this given we are given so little information on the subject?

Why does Robb, the Blackfish, Tywin and Tyrion, the Lords with Roose, all not come to this same conclusion?

If Roose had messed up so badly why are these lords still following him? Why does Robb still have faith in him?

There is nothing from the books to validate the idea that Roose deliberately lost the battle of the Green Fork or did not try to win. But Roose had two objectives, to engage and have enough men to defend the Kings Road if need be. He accomplished both of these. 

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Roose was playing it smart. He was weakening his home rivals

How so?

Were the Freys not also fighting? More Freys seem to have been captured than any other faction.

Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey.

Notice who else is not mentioned? The Bolton's nearest neighbours, the Umbers. Or the main competition in the north-east region of the North, the Manderlys.  Yet somehow the far away Glovers are a House that Bolton is trying to weaken? Come on! People have jumped to so many conclusions based on one paragraph, that they seemingly have not properly analysed.

Fandoms are excellent, they give us all a chance to discuss and theorize about events in the book. Unfortunately a negative of that is that sometimes they turn into echo chambers and people will ignore what is actually written and rely on theories as fact.

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

whilst at the same time playing both sides in case Robb got captured. He probably thought Robb was a green boy that was going to fail at his mission (fair enough since Robb was leading an army into a risky situation against a commander much more experienced than him).

I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense. Even if he believed that Robb's army would be defeated, how is deliberately getting beat and weakening his force a good idea for Roose? Routs happen. He himself becomes vulnerable to attack.

Roose does not know

• That Ned will die
• That Joffrey and his siblings are bastards and the realm is about to have multiple kings
• That the war will go on indefinitely
• That the Ironborn will attack Winterfell

Roose is in the dark about what is about to happen. He is not planning accordingly.

38 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

By weakening the rest of the army he prepared himself in case he had to submit to Tywin.

I'm sorry, ask any military leader if that makes any sense. The weaker Roose's army is the weaker his position to negotiate with Tywin becomes. The stronger his army is, the stronger his position is.

You are literally abandoning common sense to try and make a conspiracy theory work.

 

 

 

[The Young Maester]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No. This is constantly said in the fandom and every time someone corrects this misconception it seems to be ignored.

… and woke in darkness to the blare of trumpets. Shae was shaking him by the shoulder. "M'lord," she whispered. "Wake up, m'lord. I'm frightened."

Groggy, he sat up and threw back the blanket. The horns called through the night, wild and urgent, a cry that said hurry hurry hurry. He heard shouts, the clatter of spears, the whicker of horses, though nothing yet that spoke to him of fighting. "My lord father's trumpets," he said.

 

You and others have been duped into believing that the horns were by Roose. This is what happens when a fandom becomes an echo chamber. People tend to ignore or downvote(if on Reddit) any evidence that contradicts their pet theories. For more than a decade people have been claiming that the horns were by the Northmen and in many of those discussions there would be someone pointing out that the books explicitly point out that they are wrong.

I'm not referring to the horns in that quote. I am referring to an army blowing horns in general. Armies blow horns before battle. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How long? Tell me how long it takes and how long Roose had.

I am puzzled how you can claim this given the lack of information we have on this subject. There is not one POV in Roose's camp. All of our information comes from a groggy Tyrion awoken early in the early morning.

Armies have scouts. Scouts normally patrol the nearby lands and scout out the enemy camp and the ground where the battle is due to happen. I claim he had full knowledge of the land because its natural for a leader to scout out the area. 

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why does Tyrion not come to the same conclusion that you have?

Why would he? He has never been to war or been taught its arts by his father.

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

es. Do I really need to explain why?

Roose had the jump on both of those events, having the Brave Companions and Freys on the 'inside' to get his way. Roose does not have that opportunity here. His objective is to get to the Green Fork in time before Robb's army is spotted and Tywin is able to move and reinforce Jaime's.

Robb could not be sure that;

• None of Jaime's scouts would spot what he was doing
• That Jaime would be idiotic enough to give battle himself with only a fraction of his forces
• That none of his army would alert the sleeping camp that they were under attack

Robb's plan went 100% smoothly, but any commander with a smidgen of common sense would realize that contingency plans are needed in case something does not go to plan. Roose and the Northern foot was that contingency plan. He was needed to engage with Tywin.

When I say cunning its not backstabbing tactics. It is using your brain in general. Something Roose has. 

If Tywin or Jamie discovered robbs army, it wouldnt have mattered since it would take a week for Tywins army to march towards riverrrun. Timing in between both armies dosent have to be exact. If Roose wanted to he couldve delayed the battle for days and it wouldnt have changed much since Tywin would still be distracted keeping an eye out on the army right in front of him. It takes days for word to travel between riverrun and tywins army. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The author's own words suggest he did want to win.

GRRM: And the best sword is the one that cuts both ways, he might tell you. Take the Battle of Green Fork. Had his night march taken Lord Tywin unawares and won the battle, he would have smashed the Lannisters and become the hero of the hour. While if it failed... well, you see what happened. The only way he could lose there would be if were captured or slain himself, and he did his best to minimize the chances of that.

Roose wanted victory, but victory, given how outmatched the Northern army was, was always a longshot.

Nowhere it says that Roose attempted to achieve victory. 

But thats the thing, he failed to capitulate on his night march. Instead, he decided to stay put and let tywin form up his armies. Any smart man (Which Roose clearly is) wouldve charged at Tywins unorganised army. 

Because only an idiot would abandon a strong defensive position and send his infantry against heavy cavalry. If he thought he could win, he wouldve set up a defensive position. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why does Robb, the Blackfish, Tywin and Tyrion, the Lords with Roose, all not come to this same conclusion?

If Roose had messed up so badly why are these lords still following him? Why does Robb still have faith in him?

Because Roose's action seem genuine. And they were genuine, even though he couldve lessened casualties by using other tactics. He still did his duty and didnt lose his army. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is nothing from the books to validate the idea that Roose deliberately lost the battle of the Green Fork or did not try to win. But Roose had two objectives, to engage and have enough men to defend the Kings Road if need be. He accomplished both of these. 

Why would there be? Unless Roose reveals to Theon that he bottled the green fork. We will never know. But using the basis that the books say nothing applies to your own theory that he wanted to win the battle. It works both ways. 

Dont deny he failed at his accomplishment. Just saying he didnt bother trying to win the battle of the green fork. 

 

 

 

 

2

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

 

 

2

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

How so?

Were the Freys not also fighting? More Freys seem to have been captured than any other faction.

Their captains led them on armored warhorses, standard-bearers riding alongside with their banners. He glimpsed the bull moose of the Hornwoods, the Karstark sunburst, Lord Cerwyn's battle-axe, and the mailed fist of the Glovers … and the twin towers of Frey, blue on grey.

Notice who else is not mentioned? The Bolton's nearest neighbours, the Umbers. Or the main competition in the north-east region of the North, the Manderlys.  Yet somehow the far away Glovers are a House that Bolton is trying to weaken? Come on! People have jumped to so many conclusions based on one paragraph, that they seemingly have not properly analysed.

You forget that Tyrion was in the left flank. Armies of 20k are large to look upon a field. I doubt the author would have wanted Tyrion to recite every single northern houses present (that would be a long text). Then again his chapter was full of confusion with Tyrion barely saying anything about the enemys formation and tactics. 

Wyllis was captured. Which implies that manderly forces bled. Just because Tyrion didnt notice other houses banners, dont mean they werent present at the fight. 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Fandoms are excellent, they give us all a chance to discuss and theorize about events in the book. Unfortunately a negative of that is that sometimes they turn into echo chambers and people will ignore what is actually written and rely on theories as fact.

Mayhaps you take quotes and text too much to heart. And fail to acknowledge the minor details. Like using Tyrions quote about the northern banners. But you failed to notice that Tyrion was in the other end of his fathers army, and most likely didnt have full view of the enemys and his fathers army (especially the right flank). 

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, but that makes zero sense. Even if he believed that Robb's army would be defeated, how is deliberately getting beat and weakening his force a good idea for Roose? Routs happen. He himself becomes vulnerable to attack.

Roose does not know

• That Ned will die
• That Joffrey and his siblings are bastards and the realm is about to have multiple kings
• That the war will go on indefinitely
• That the Ironborn will attack Winterfell

Roose is in the dark about what is about to happen. He is not planning accordingly.

 

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm sorry, ask any military leader if that makes any sense. The weaker Roose's army is the weaker his position to negotiate with Tywin becomes. The stronger his army is, the stronger his position is.

You are literally abandoning common sense to try and make a conspiracy theory work.

Sorry, I forgot to add why I believe weakening his rivals is good for Roose and makes him play both sides. 

Im not saying that Roose wanted to usurp the starks but more that he didnt want to be caught in between the stark-Lannister feud and potentially lose his house and lands. By weakening the rest of the army and keeping his own levies fresh he is in a position to force the rest of the army to submit to his own decision in case Robbs plan failed and he had to negotiate a peace offer with Tywin. Plus by refusing to put his own levies at the frontlines he can use the basis that "no bolton soldier ever fought against the lannisters". 

Think about it. If Robb failed and his army was wiped (highly possible since he was facing 3-1 odds). Robb wouldve been captured or killed, and Catelyn would have been taken hostage. Roose is pretty much at this point the representative of the north, since he has command of the norths only army. A favourable peace term could be negotiated in which house stark swear fealty to Joffrey and Roose is maybe declared Brandons regent (Robb would have been executed or sent to the wall for treason). With the high casualties, Roose received at the green fork he has a higher chance of subduing the rest of his army with Tywins help. 

[1908]

On 11/18/2019 at 7:02 PM, Ran said:

She did not do that, and he never had a "multitude" of plans.

 

On 11/18/2019 at 6:43 PM, shadeofthemorning said:

Let’s see

 

There’s the most obvious one, beheading the Karstark.

Sending conniving, easily manipulated Theon as an emissary to his homeland.

Not moving on bargaining Jamie sooner rather than later.

Letting his mother call the shots and undermine him regularly, which not only screwed up a multitude of his plans, but also made him look like a chump in front of his bannermen.

The breaking of a pact, of course, which would have been egregious even if it hadn’t been a pact with the emotionally unstable Freys, because it soils his honor and his word.

He made quite a few diplomatic blunders. I’d say age and the isolation of the North is an excuse, but really the only excuse I can come up with is being raised by the father and mother he got stuck with. Any other man who had been groomed to be King or Lord or Warden or whatever wouldn’t have made his mistakes. Although, once again, he was screwed from birth, given how naive his father was and how ignorant his mother was.

1. He had no choice, Karstark had to be punished. 

2. Yeah Theon was a bad idea. 

3. You may not like Catelyn, but you shouldn't deny that she was a very smart woman. 

And Robb didn't let her call the shots

4. Exchanging a seasoned battle commander and a great fighter for a couple of little girls during a war doesn't seem like a good idea 

[Tyrion1991]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:52 AM, shadeofthemorning said:

It seems like the thought process required to be a good war strategist is extremely similar to the thought process required to be a good politician/diplomat. If that’s the case, why was Robb such an awful politician? You would think that he would employ some of the techniques he used strategically in battle to the political playing field. I suppose you could make the argument that Robb was an aggressor in war, and being an aggressor in diplomacy doesn’t work the same way as being an aggressor on the battlefield does, but still it doesn’t explain how someone so tactically gifted would be so stupid as far as diplomacy goes, considering how similar war and politics tend to be. Does anybody have a good answer for this?

 

Because George is writing a story where what happens is dictated by the drama. It’s a romantic tragedy that the brave warrior king who never lost a battle ultimately fails because of his personal decisions. It also sets up the martyrdom of House Stark for our other POV.

So he’s not really writing about realistic scenarios and what is reasonable for his characters to know. He relies a lot of Rob being ignorant at how the Frey’s and Karstarks. Something he does with Roberts Rebellion and it being impossible for Lyanna to have told somebody what was going on. He also makes the huge leap that, in the real world a man won’t drop his principles when his necks on the line. You learn a lot about human nature playing Pathfinder; people are cowards. I’ve never taken George’s assertion that people do blindly do the right thing and get burned for it seriously. It’s very unrealistic that Rob would marry Jeyne Westerling.

Also, Cat in AGOT all but says that Walker Frey has nothing but a gaggle of creatures for daughters. Why exactly would Cat not know or be shown this stunning daughter that he wants to marry off her son? Why would she not be escorting Rob like Margery did with Renly. It’s a massive plot hole.

Plus, pulling off the Red Wedding would have been too difficult since the incentive would there for one of the common soldiers to rat them out for a reward.

I could go on, but my point is that the story is there to belabour a moral point; not be realistic. George is starting with the message and then going back and rationalising it. This isn’t an entirely organic story where events are just playing out.

As an aside, I think the novels vastly play down how disastrous Rob Stark was a King. This whole “let’s restore the Starks” should not be taken seriously by anyone in the North. This is the House of Habsburg after WW1. That family destroyed the North through their selfish goals and mismanagement. Nobody should take them serious and their reputation should be in tatters. Yet the books never assign blame to them for this.

Ill put it this way. House Stark is not the little guy. Through marriages and vassals they on paper at the tales beginning controlled the Vale, Riverlands and Iron Islands. That’s three of the Seven Kingdoms against one in House Lannister. This alliance destroyed the Targaryens and the Reach/Dorne only 13 years ago. It is a formidable host of seasoned warriors and commanders. Yet Rob allowed that alliance to disintegrate and fall apart through utter incompetence.. He became bogged down in an unwinnable war in the Riverlands with unachievable objectives that exposed the North to invasion. Remember, Greyjoy’s, Frey’s, Bolton’s and Karstsrks are all people Ned assumed would be on side yet they do far more damage than Tywin. I cannot understand the level of blame that gets hurled at Dany in the books for Slavers Bay and yet this gets treated with any sympathy.

[Bernie Mac]

On 11/25/2019 at 9:48 PM, The Young Maester said:

I'm not referring to the horns in that quote. I am referring to an army blowing horns in general. Armies blow horns before battle. 

 

Sorry, I'm not reading the rest of your post until you can prove you are not arguing in bad faith.

Your original quote was

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Roose already formed up his army like a mile away from Lannister camp. The Northmen started blowing horns whilst they waited for Tywin to prepare his lines and formations.

Which is not based on anything from the books. Tyrion, from the quote I provided, is literally woken up by Lannister trumpets.  The Lannisters scouts know where the Northmen are.

Where is this claim that the Northmen started blowing their horns before the Lannisters did?

1. Are you genuinely arguing in bad faith?
2. Did you mistakenly believe the books showed evidence of the Northmen alerting the Westerland scouts/army to their position?
3. Do you simply not care what is written in the books?

[The Young Maester]

 

 

 

 

53 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, I'm not reading the rest of your post until you can prove you are not arguing in bad faith.

Your original quote was

Which is not based on anything from the books. Tyrion, from the quote I provided, is literally woken up by Lannister trumpets.  The Lannisters scouts know where the Northmen are.

How am I arguing in bad faith if I just told you that armies blow horns in general. I wasnt using it as an excuse that this is what alerted the Lannister camp. all I said was that they sat on a field and blew horns whilst they waited for the lannister army. It seems silly to pick such a minor detail and decide to instantly accuse me. 

 

 

 

 

55 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where is this claim that the Northmen started blowing their horns before the Lannisters did?

Mayhaps I shall use this as an excuse to not reply to this quote (bad faith?) since I never claimed they started blowing horns before the lannisters.

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Are you genuinely arguing in bad faith?

Dont think so. 

58 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Did you mistakenly believe the books showed evidence of the Northmen alerting the Westerland scouts/army to their position?

No, I didnt mistakenly believe that the Northmen alerted the westerlander army. An army of that size will always alert anything within miles, be it scouts or farmers. But if you are referring to me, believing that horns are what alerted the Lannister camp than you are throwing things at me which are not true. I could also call that bad faith.

[Ponzi Scheme]

Robb never had to play diplomat.  He was stuck in the north all of his life.  The people there naturally deferred to him because of his position in society.  He asked and he got.  He thought he could get away with humiliating the Freys because he probably could have in the north.  

[Bernie Mac]

2 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

How am I arguing in bad faith if I just told you that armies blow horns in general.

Your original point was that Roose was sabotaging the battle and you deduced that one of the key evidence was;

 

Quote

The Northmen started blowing horns whilst they waited for Tywin to prepare his lines and formations.

 Now we have no idea if that happened in the books. You've made that up.  Rather than admit you were mistaken you've doubled down.

Frankly, if your only evidence of the horn blowing is down to that being the general behaviour of armies how is that evidence that Roose sabotaged the battle?

1. Would you have blown the horns in Roose's situation?
2. If not, why do you assume Roose did?

Again, I'm not reading the rest of your post until I know whether you are arguing in bad faith or just confused on the subject.

 

 

[Arthur Peres]

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

According to who in the series?

Robb does not think Roose was a disaster at the Battle of the Green Fork, as he is happy to have him remain in charge and wants him to lead a third of his troops when he is retaking Moat Cailin.

We don't hear any grumblings from the Blackfish, his chief of scouts and second in command, or any of the other Lords present.

Robb does not have all the information to make a judment call, Robb only has the reports given to him by Roose himself. This is so clear, that a huge mistake as Duskendale was wright off as Robett Glover mistake instead of Roose's orders. 

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Neither Tywin or Tyrion think Roose messed up. Tywin is actually angry that the Northern army did not fall into his trap and escaped with more men.

 The nobles with Roose; Glover, Tallhart and Freys, are not blaming Roose for that defeat nor think he was disastrous. Disastrous commanders who are seen as at fault for the loss of huge number of their army don't usually have the same level of support Roose did from his host.

Tyrion cleary says that Roose was making a blunder before the Greenfork. 

The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man’s fool.

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

There was a very real need. Tywin needed to be occupied if Robb was to have a chance of freeing Riverrun.

Tywin need to be distracted, not fought, and the best case scenario would be to avoid battle and do not engage in a fight that it had no chance to win.

Remember what Robb wanted

“I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway,” he said, “but once we’re below the Neck, I’d split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins.” He pointed. “When Lord Tywin gets word that we’ve come south, he’ll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun.”

Now remember what Tywin expected:

“No sword is strong until it’s been tempered,” Lord Tywin declared. “The Stark boy is a child. No doubt he likes the sound of warhorns well enough, and the sight of his banners fluttering in the wind, but in the end it comes down to butcher’s work. I doubt he has the stomach for it.”

And now remember how he reacted to Roose coming to him:

Lord Tywin Lannister did not smile. Lord Tywin never smiled, but Tyrion had learned to read his father’s pleasure all the same, and it was there on his face. “So the wolfling is leaving his den to play among the lions,” he said in a voice of quiet satisfaction. “Splendid. Return to Ser Addam and tell him to fall back. He is not to engage the northerners until we arrive, but I want him to harass their flanks and draw them farther south.”

“We are well situated here,” Ser Kevan pointed out. “Close to the ford and ringed by pits and spikes. If they are coming south, I say let them come, and break themselves against us.”

“The boy may hang back or lose his courage when he sees our numbers,” Lord Tywin replied. “The sooner the Starks are broken, the sooner I shall be free to deal with Stannis Baratheon. Tell the drummers to beat assembly, and send word to Jaime that I am marching against Robb Stark.”

Roose is pretending to be Robb, a 14 years old boy who barely even held a sword on his life, if stoped his march, retreated or stayed put in some defensive position after being spoted and harassed by ser Addam his objectives would be complete without any fuss. At that pont Tywin was already too far to reach Jaime and keeping the position would be the most sensible think he could do.

To make things worse for Roose performance, Tywin only learns Robb's plan and reacted to it, because of the capitives he tooked...

“My liege, we have taken some of their commanders. Lord Cerwyn, Ser Wylis Manderly, Harrion Karstark, four Freys. Lord Hornwood is dead, and I fear Roose Bolton has escaped us.”

“And the boy?” Lord Tywin asked.

Ser Addam hesitated. “The Stark boy was not with them, my lord. They say he crossed at the Twins with the great part of his horse, riding hard for Riverrun.”

 

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

He had to. His foot had to somehow beat Robb's cavalry to the central Riverlands. That is the job he was given.

As said above his objetives were completed when he was spoted and harassed by Addam, he didn't need to force a night march, in fact this was extremely counter productive. His mission was to gain time, and he does that by keeping Tywin as far as possible from him.

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Where is any of this claimed in the books.

•  We have no idea about the majority of the territory in this battle. It baffles me how no more than two paragraphs of the geography is enough for some to tell Roose what he did wrong

We do know that Roose abandoned the high ground and came to battle on Tywin's terms.

The drums were so near that the beat crept under his skin and set his hands to twitching. Bronn drew his longsword, and suddenly the enemy was there before them, boiling over the tops of the hills, advancing with measured tread behind a wall of shields and pikes.

the northman came from a hill as we see above and later on they strugled to make it back to the hills on their retreat... It was the worst position of all.

He saw that Ser Kevan had brought up his center in support of the van; his huge mass of pikemen had pushed the northerners back against the hills. They were struggling on the slopes, pikes thrusting against another wall of shields, these oval and reinforced with iron studs.

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

She could hardly do that when the North had been raised and was marching to war by the time she arrived. That is not on Cat, but the timeline.

The north was marching because she kidnaped Tyrion.

[Arthur Peres]

 

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Because the Greatjon is vainglorious. He was exactly the type of commander that Tywin was hoping for.

Robb Stark is a green boy, more like to be brave than wise. I'd hoped that if he saw our left collapse, he might plunge into the gap, eager for a rout.

Roose was cautious, his caution meant more of the Northmen were spared. The Greatjon is perfect for leading the Van, when you want a ferocious attack

Tywin cleary did not know Robb and this quote becomes a joke at the end of the books as Tyrion puts: 

A green boy, Tyrion remembered, more like to be brave than wise. He would have laughed, if he hadn’t hurt so much.

And either way, the Greatjon is not a green boy, this quote does not really aply to him... The mountain was more brave than wise and we don't see him making such a big blunders.

About sparing more men... Roose lost 1/3 of his army, and this is because Tywin choose to not give persuit... he barely inflicted any casualities on his foe as his army performed so badly  that the ragtag vanguard that Tywin putted there was able to hold and repel them. Tywin's trap failed because the northem could not even achieve the initial sucess he expected.

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. The majority of medieval armies have to do this when they come into distance of their enemy. They stop and get into formation.

He needs to stop, organize and know where their enemy is coming from, how they are organized and which parts of the land are vulnerable to them. He can't march and do this. Especially not in enemy territory.  Quite a few notable English defeats came doing just that, marching into the unknown.

No really, armies marched under organized column that allowed then to quickly charge upon desorganized foes. If you want examples you have the Battle of Zappolino were a organized army surprised a much larger army with a quick charge while the foe was in disarray.

On 11/25/2019 at 3:02 AM, Bernie Mac said:

She did not lose him, he was released. Though I think you are quibbling here, you can't really count Tyrion twice.

There was two diferent mistakes there... first in kidnaping him and then in letting him go... Tyrion pretty much won the war for the Lannisters with the Martell and Tyrell alliance and holding Stannis enough time at KL.