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shadeofthemorning

Why Was Robb Such An Awful Diplomat?

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20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

Tywin cleary did not know Robb and this quote becomes a joke at the end of the books as Tyrion puts: 

Except he kind of did. Every battle Robb leads he rushes in and mostly it works, the only time it backfires is when he is injured taking the poorly defended Crag.

Robb takes the chance that Jaime is unaware of his coming, or that the army at Riverrun is unaware, he marches West without any real plan and his magical wolf finds a hidden entrance into the West. His plan to retake the North hinges on there being secret passages into the North that will allow him to take Moat Cailin.

In the battles Robb leads bravery and chance take up a huge part. There is nothing wrong in this, many a young successful commander was the same. But he very much was a risk taker.

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

A green boy, Tyrion remembered, more like to be brave than wise. He would have laughed, if he hadn’t hurt so much.

 

I think in fairness, that quote is spot on in regards to Robb and his campaign. He was more brave than he was wise.

Are  you really under the impression that Robb was less brave than he was wise?

20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

 

And either way, the Greatjon is not a green boy, this quote does not really aply to him..

Jesus Christ, Are any of you able to debate in good faith?

Did I say the Greatjon is green? Does Tywin saying that about Robb mean that he thought every one of Robb's commanders was going to be green?

The Greatjon was the kind of commander that Tywin was hoping Robb would use.  A vainglorious commander who would risk it all for a win. The fact that Robb was going to the use the Greatjon until his mother talked him out of it precisely for these reasons shows that Tywin had a decent understanding of Robb.

39 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

 

There was two diferent mistakes there... first in kidnaping him and then in letting him go... Tyrion pretty much won the war for the Lannisters with the Martell and Tyrell alliance and holding Stannis enough time at KL.

She didn't have much choice in letting him go, he won his trial. Lysa did not give Cat that option.

She made a huge mistake with regards to Tyrion, but it was just one mistake.

 

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5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb does not have all the information to make a judment call,

You don't know that. There is zero suggestion that Robb does not have enough information to make a judgement call on this one.

You have an agenda to push and are pushing a narrrative that is not presented in the book.

No one

  • Not the Blackfish and his scouting network
  • Not the nobles with Roose, including the Freys who remain in contact with the Twins
  • Not Tywin or Tyrion

Think that Roose sabotaged the battle. The only reason some readers think this is because of Roose's later actions.

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Robb only has the reports given to him by Roose himself.

Again, a made up point on your part. We have no idea if this is true.

We do know however that the Freys are in contact with the Twins and there seems to be no suggestion that Roose deliberately butchered a good portion of their men and got Walder's sons captured.

Many of the Northern and Frey noble prisoners were captured at Harrenhal, none seem to blame Roose for what happened to him.

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This is so clear, that a huge mistake as Duskendale was wright off as Robett Glover mistake instead of Roose's orders. 

Yes. Because Roose lied about it and all the men with Glover were either captured or killed.

  1. There is no suggestion that anyone was scapegoated for the battle of the Green Fork
  2. There is no suggestion that Robb was angry with what happened at the battle of the Green Fork
  3. Roose's gambit with Glover was only possible because he knew Robb would be dead before he found out the truth. He does not have that same option at the start of the war when everything was unclear.
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Tyrion cleary says that Roose was making a blunder before the Greenfork. 

The northerners would be exhausted after their long sleepless march. Tyrion wondered what the boy had been thinking. Did he think to take them unawares while they slept? Small chance of that; whatever else might be said of him, Tywin Lannister was no man’s fool.

No, you seem to be missing what is being said here. He makes zero mention of Roose.

Tyrion, like Tywin, is under the impression that this was the entire Northern army led by Robb, when infact it was a successful diversion. 

Are you under the impression that Tyrion still thought it foolish after the battle when the news of Riverrun comes in? No. It was a success.

 

 

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Tywin need to be distracted, not fought,

We don't know if there was another option.

Roose had to get close enough to get Tywin's attention. Roose had no cavalry. It seems unlikely that battle was not an option.

If you can quote anything from the books or GRRM's numerous comments on the series to support the idea that battle was not an option I will gladly hear it.

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and the best case scenario would be to avoid battle and do not engage in a fight that it had no chance to win.

You say that? How he has no cavalry, and he needs to distract Tywin. Battle seems unavoidable.

Why is Robb not angry about this? He's certainly aware of his losses and has a competent scouting network in the Riverlands. Is the Blackfish not very good at his job?

Why are the men with Roose not angry about this?

Why does Tywin still think of Roose as wary and cautious after the battle if this was the case?

No one in the books thinks Roose fucked up.

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snip

I'm sorry, but how do any of these quotes back up your point?

 

 

 

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Roose is pretending to be Robb, a 14 years old boy who barely even held a sword on his life,

 

15 and you are miscalculating the medieval world and nobility training. Tyrion and Sam apart, every noble son of Robb's age would have been trained in the art of warfare.

He is not calling Robb braindead, he is saying he is green. Which he was. Green does not mean being untrained.

 

 

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The north was marching because she kidnaped Tyrion.

No, it was not. That is demonstrably false. They marched because Ned was arrested, Ned was arrested because he knew the truth about the incest and was not willing to drop it.

Either you are unclear about why the North marched South or you are deliberately misrepresenting why they did so to try and win a meaningless internet argument.

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48 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think in fairness, that quote is spot on in regards to Robb and his campaign. He was more brave than he was wise.

 Are  you really under the impression that Robb was less brave than he was wise?

I think Robb is more clever and brave and that Tywin was very wrong during the whole chapter... Tywin was describing Joffrey, not Robb.

Robb was cleary afraid of going against Tywin at the start, he says himself that he doesn't belive that he can take him with his guard down, and that Tywin's army was better than his, so while Robb was brave, he was not super brave so to speak, he used more deception and inteligence to win his battles than bravery.

 

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2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You don't know that. There is zero suggestion that Robb does not have enough information to make a judgement call on this one.

You have an agenda to push and are pushing a narrrative that is not presented in the book.

No one

  • Not the Blackfish and his scouting network
  • Not the nobles with Roose, including the Freys who remain in contact with the Twins
  • Not Tywin or Tyrion

Think that Roose sabotaged the battle. The only reason some readers think this is because of Roose's later actions.

Tyrion does point out the blunder of exhausting his army.

Roose did not developed as a character, he was the same men in AGoT that he is in ADoD, so of course his actions are viewed as a whole. And on your own quote of GRRM he says that Roose was playing both sides, keeping his options opened for the longest time possible, there was always duplicity on his character... His son also went on to attack other northem lords and I doubt that this was made without the knowloge of Roose.

The Blackfish that you pointed out is on Robb's camp, and have the same information that the boy has. Roose constatly pushes the blame of his failures and treason on others as we saw he doing with Duskendale and Glover, and with Darry.

10 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes. Because Roose lied about it and all the men with Glover were either captured or killed.

  1.  There is no suggestion that anyone was scapegoated for the battle of the Green Fork
  2. There is no suggestion that Robb was angry with what happened at the battle of the Green Fork
  3. Roose's gambit with Glover was only possible because he knew Robb would be dead before he found out the truth. He does not have that same option at the start of the war when everything was unclear.

Roose can pin it down as some sort of great manouver by Tywin or push the blame on a dead men like lord Hornwood. Roose did it several times, the men he send to Duskendale and the men he left on Darry, he is always shifting the blame on someone. 

12 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

We do know however that the Freys are in contact with the Twins and there seems to be no suggestion that Roose deliberately butchered a good portion of their men and got Walder's sons captured.

 Many of the Northern and Frey noble prisoners were captured at Harrenhal, none seem to blame Roose for what happened to him.

The freys are in contact with each other so what? They don't blame Roose but they don't know what their order was.

Roose for example pushed that Robb ordered them to put the Darry castle to the torch and we know it wasn't the case. Roose has no pear or equal among his army, he is in control and acting in Robb's name as far as the northems know, they cleary didn't saw through him and followed idiot orders like Duskendale.

15 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

You say that? How he has no cavalry, and he needs to distract Tywin. Battle seems unavoidable.

 Why is Robb not angry about this? He's certainly aware of his losses and has a competent scouting network in the Riverlands. Is the Blackfish not very good at his job?

Why are the men with Roose not angry about this?

Why does Tywin still think of Roose as wary and cautious after the battle if this was the case?

No one in the books thinks Roose fucked up.

If the battle is unavoidable it sure can be delayed...and are several ways to stall an army... left loot behind to delay them, send outrageous terms before battle to gain time, pick a better defensive position that would force the Lannister to cross a river or fight against higher ground and so on and on...

Roose did achieve his objective... but he also butchered 1/3 of his army.

No one in the books knows about all the details as the reader... no one in the books thanks Tyrion for defending the city either.

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it was not. That is demonstrably false. They marched because Ned was arrested, Ned was arrested because he knew the truth about the incest and was not willing to drop it.

 Either you are unclear about why the North marched South or you are deliberately misrepresenting why they did so to try and win a meaningless internet argument.

You're right on this one. My mistake.

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Robb was raised feeling entitled.  Having to suck up his feelings and work things out with an equal is not on his skills list.  Though he did hold his tongue after being verbally chastised by Lord Walder.  He was slightly humbled at that time. 

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On 11/28/2019 at 4:05 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Your original point was that Roose was sabotaging the battle and you deduced that one of the key evidence was;

I don’t believe Roose sabotaged the battle. More like he didn’t try to win because he didn’t believe he could win. Forcing a night march and not using the element of surprise to your advantage is the mentality of a doubtful commander.

On 11/28/2019 at 4:05 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Now we have no idea if that happened in the books. You've made that up.  Rather than admit you were mistaken you've doubled down.

 Frankly, if your only evidence of the horn blowing is down to that being the general behaviour of armies how is that evidence that Roose sabotaged the battle?

  1. Would you have blown the horns in Roose's situation?
  2. If not, why do you assume Roose did?

Again, I'm not reading the rest of your post until I know whether you are arguing in bad faith or just confused on the subject.

I was most likely mistaken. Since I remember reading somewhere about Roose’s army blowing horns on a hill. But I never wrote that with Tyrions chapter in mind. Tyrions beginning of the chapter had nothing to do with my assessment that the northern army was blowing horns. I only remembered that bit when you mentioned it, and still I never connected the northern horns with the southern trumpets. 
And when I mean blowing horns in general, I am not referring to how making loud noises is what botched the battle and alerted the enemy of the incoming army. Roose was most likely spotted minutes before he started forming up.
But had he just charged into the disarrayed camp. Maybe just maybe he could’ve won. 

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On 11/21/2019 at 6:32 PM, shadeofthemorning said:

I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that Stannis was a valuable ally for Robb and that disregarding him was another one of his mistakes. I disagree with that, his tepid relationship with Stannis was one of the only things I agreed with. Stannis was a joke, even before he lost the Battle of the Blackwater. Aligning himself with somebody that everyone in the Seven Kingdoms (save the idiotic Ned and maybe one or two others) views as at best a power hungry block of ice and at worst a madman would have made a mockery of his claim as King in the North. People already doubted Robb as a king, he didn’t need to go making friends with lunatics on top of that.

 

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On 11/21/2019 at 6:32 PM, shadeofthemorning said:

I’ve seen a lot of people arguing that Stannis was a valuable ally for Robb and that disregarding him was another one of his mistakes. I disagree with that...

I'd disagree with that too. This was Stannis' mistake, not Robb's.

Stannis screwed them both over by not declaring until so late. Stannis knew he was Robert's lawful heir before Ned arrived in KL or Robert died, yet he remained on Dragonstone doing very little.

Robb had time to receive a raven about Ned's imprisonment, march to Rivverrun, fight a battle, spread word to Dragonstone of his crowning, get news from scouts that Tywin was gathering a second army and decide to send Cat as an envoy to Renly. All before Stannis drafts a letter to the other lords of the 7K about the incest and that he is proclaiming himself the rightful king.

And that was the solution Robb would have wanted. Before the council at Riverrun he discusses that Joffrey is the rightful king who he can't support, and Renly has no rightful claim. If Robb had already received a version of Stannis' letter then he could have forestalled the proclamation of himself as KitN by backing the enemy of Joffrey who had a lawful claim to the Iron Throne.

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... his tepid relationship with Stannis was one of the only things I agreed with. Stannis was a joke, even before he lost the Battle of the Blackwater. Aligning himself with somebody that everyone in the Seven Kingdoms (save the idiotic Ned and maybe one or two others) views as at best a power hungry block of ice and at worst a madman would have made a mockery of his claim as King in the North. People already doubted Robb as a king, he didn’t need to go making friends with lunatics on top of that.

 


 

I dislike Stannis too, but before the war of 5 Kings he was considered a 'hard man' (maester Cressen's POV) not a joke. Stannis was a weak  ally early in the war only because so many of his Bannermen had already proclaimed for Renly, again before Stannis had made it known he was the lawful heir.
Edited by Buried Treasure

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