Theories on The Hound? *spoilers*

[LadyBlackwater]

In the books, they say the hound is dead. When Brienne and Pod join the Septon at his home base, there is a very tall man digging a grave and they have the hounds horse(renamed Driftwood). I used to theorize that the silent digger is actually the hound. In the show version, the hound is actually alive and joined up with a septon. Do you think this solidifies the theory that the hound is the silent digger?

[John Suburbs]

I'd be surprised if that turned out not to be the Hound. But in typical Martin fashion, he throws out one mystery like this in order to deflect from something far more interesting.

The whole bit about Stranger rearing up and biting the brother who tried to geld him. It sounds an awful lot like he knew what was about to happen, which is simply impossible for a horse. Mayhaps the Hound and Stranger have some sort of mind-connection like the Stark kids and their wolves? Several other characters seem to have this as well: Lyanna Stark, Domeric Bolton (both mad for horses), and even Arya, during her escape attempt from the brotherhood, seems to feel that the horse knows what to do without being told.

Why would House Clegane have this ability, though? And might it in some way explain Gregor? As in, his mind as an infant was being tainted by the thoughts of some animal -- a vicious dog, perhaps? Kind of like what is happening between Rickon and Shaggy Dog? Might this also be the source of the "wolf blood" in certain Starks?

I'm just ruminating, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't more the House Clegane than meets the eye.

[#1dolFAN]

12 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Mayhaps the Hound and Stranger have some sort of mind-connection like the Stark kids and their wolves?

I'm just ruminating, but I can't help but wonder if there isn't more the House Clegane than meets the eye.

Dogs & Direwolfs = both canines

[John Suburbs]

10 hours ago, #1dolFAN said:

Dogs & Direwolfs = both canines

Right, but how could a common kennelmaster from the westerlands share what otherwise appears to be a unique trait in the ruling house of the north?

And at the same time, am I the only one who sees a parallel between the wolf blood of the Starks and the madness of the Targaryens? It seems that the gods flip a coin for every babe born to both houses: madness/wolf blood for some, sanity for others.

[#1dolFAN]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And at the same time, am I the only one who sees a parallel between the wolf blood of the Starks and the madness of the Targaryens? It seems that the gods flip a coin for every babe born to both houses: madness/wolf blood for some, sanity for others.

Refresh me on any Starks who suffered from insanity/schizophrenia/madness?

[John Suburbs]

On 11/27/2019 at 1:17 PM, #1dolFAN said:

Refresh me on any Starks who suffered from insanity/schizophrenia/madness?

Wolf blood causes a kind of maniacal, defiant, risk-taking behavior among Starks: Brandon, Lyanna, Arya . . .

Targ madness cause maniacal, defiant, risk-taking behavior in Targs: Maegor, Daeron I, Aerion Brightflame, Aerys II . . .

I don't see anyone suffering from schizophrenia, and both insanity and madness are in the eye of the beholder.

[#1dolFAN]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Wolf blood causes a kind of maniacal, defiant, risk-taking behavior among Starks: Brandon, Lyanna, Arya . . .

Targ madness cause maniacal, defiant, risk-taking behavior in Targs: Maegor, Daeron I, Aerion Brightflame, Aerys II . . .

I don't see anyone suffering from schizophrenia, and both insanity and madness are in the eye of the beholder.

The wolf blood influences personality traits more so than psychological/mental health issues is what you’re saying.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 27. November 2019 at 5:48 PM, John Suburbs said:

Right, but how could a common kennelmaster from the westerlands share what otherwise appears to be a unique trait in the ruling house of the north?

But skinchangers are not that unique. 1 in 1000. If I remember correctly. Not only the ruling house of the north shares that ability. Why should it matter that granddad Clegane was a common kennel master?

[John Suburbs]

On 11/29/2019 at 11:54 AM, #1dolFAN said:

The wolf blood influences personality traits more so than psychological/mental health issues is what you’re saying.

Maniacal behavior is a psychological/mental health issue. If Brandon had been a king and behaved the way he did, would he be considered mad? The only difference I see between him and Aerys is that Aerys had more political power to wield. So I contend that wolf blood and Targ "madness" might be caused by the same thing: some kind of reverse warg that allows animal minds to shape human minds in the infant or even in utero stages.

Just a thought.

[John Suburbs]

On 11/30/2019 at 2:21 AM, Nagini's Neville said:

But skinchangers are not that unique. 1 in 1000. If I remember correctly. Not only the ruling house of the north shares that ability. Why should it matter that granddad Clegane was a common kennel master?

I can't imagine that it's 1 in 1000. That would mean there are literally a million skin changers in the world. I think that number may refer to northmen and wildlings, since that is where the bulk of the known skinchangers reside. Bloodraven is the only known southron changer that I'm aware of, but he is a Blackwood, and a greenseer to boot.

I'm not saying there has to be a connection between Clegane's and Starks. It's just odd that among all of the southron houses, only the Clegane's seem to have this ability, and they are a very recent house.

[sweetsunray]

On 12/1/2019 at 5:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

I can't imagine that it's 1 in 1000. That would mean there are literally a million skin changers in the world. I think that number may refer to northmen and wildlings, since that is where the bulk of the known skinchangers reside. Bloodraven is the only known southron changer that I'm aware of, but he is a Blackwood, and a greenseer to boot.

I'm not saying there has to be a connection between Clegane's and Starks. It's just odd that among all of the southron houses, only the Clegane's seem to have this ability, and they are a very recent house.

Not skinchangers, but Jaime and Cersei and even Tyrion seem to have some of that "dreamsight" blood like Jojen's and GoHH. All have foretelling dreams. Jaime even has a dream where he communicates with his dead mother. They all have green eyes (well Tyrion has one green eye).

There are also some Houses in the Reach that may have skinchanger abilities. The big difference is that the Houses south of the Neck were heavily Andalized and became believers of the Faith and are under the sway of maesters for far longer. Neither Faith or maesters like skinchangers, nor did the Andals. The risk of ending up being hunted if anyone would come out and admit it is too big. On top of that, Robb was quite evidently a warg, but he denied this even to himself, and wanted to dissociate from this. Heck, even Bran (a child who believes in CotF and Giants) and who dreams of the 3EC starts to doubt and negate any such thing as warging and dreamsight to Jojen and Meera after maester Luwin talked and manipulated such ideas out of Bran (by drugging him to stop the nightmares, except they don't stop). If Stark children even deny their abilities, even to themselves, then why would you expect Andalized southerners to accept it of themselves, let alone train it, or openly flaunt it.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 1. Dezember 2019 at 5:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

I can't imagine that it's 1 in 1000. That would mean there are literally a million skin changers in the world. I think that number may refer to northmen and wildlings, since that is where the bulk of the known skinchangers reside. Bloodraven is the only known southron changer that I'm aware of, but he is a Blackwood, and a greenseer to boot.

I'm not saying there has to be a connection between Clegane's and Starks. It's just odd that among all of the southron houses, only the Clegane's seem to have this ability, and they are a very recent house.

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Dance With Dragons, Bran 3

He doesn't say it's only northerners. I think it's quite likely the Hound is a skinchanger:

“This thing about your mother …” “It doesn’t matter,” Arya said in a dull voice. “I know she’s dead. I saw her in a dream.” The Hound looked at her a long time, then nodded. No more was said of it."

A Storm of Swords, Arya 12

[John Suburbs]

On 3/20/2020 at 7:48 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Dance With Dragons, Bran 3

He doesn't say it's only northerners. I think it's quite likely the Hound is a skinchanger:

“This thing about your mother …” “It doesn’t matter,” Arya said in a dull voice. “I know she’s dead. I saw her in a dream.” The Hound looked at her a long time, then nodded. No more was said of it."

A Storm of Swords, Arya 12

I think he is too. I just don't think we should take the "one man in a thousand" literally. If Elio's estimate of 40 million people in Westeros is correct, that would put the number of skinchangers at 40,000. That's a helluva lot of people running around in the minds of wolves, bears, birds and whatnot. But even if the 1:1000 ratio is even close, skinchangers were usually killed south of the Wall and shunned in the north, so there should be even fewer that grow to adulthood.

And it might not be just northeners, but it is definitely more of a First Man thing than an Andal thing. It's closely tied to the CotF and the First Men, with the Starks likely acquiring the trait when they defeated the Warg King and took his daughters as prizes. I'd be interested to know how it entered the Clegane bloodline, and whether this is what caused the senior Clegane to become a kennelmaster. as well as producing the horse-warging abilities in Sandor, and perhaps the horrific personality of Gregor.

[glassgardens]

On 3/20/2020 at 4:48 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

“Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger,” Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, “and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer.”

Dance With Dragons, Bran 3

He doesn't say it's only northerners. I think it's quite likely the Hound is a skinchanger:

“This thing about your mother …” “It doesn’t matter,” Arya said in a dull voice. “I know she’s dead. I saw her in a dream.” The Hound looked at her a long time, then nodded. No more was said of it."

A Storm of Swords, Arya 12

He’s not a skin changer, but he is likely being warged by Sansa since after Lady died. He no doubt experiences this as singing, and it drives him to drink. Robin Arryn (Sansa’s cousin) experiences much the same thing at the Eyrie. Robin is being drugged to drown out the singing he hears, Sandor probably just drinks more.

”A voice from nowhere,” Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. “Spirits of the air!”

She starts warging him because he’s as close to a dire wolf as can be found in the South: he’s a great savage “half-wild” dog. Later, the Hound says to Arya that dogs and wolves are his cousins, and hers.

[redwolf@winterhell]

On 12/1/2019 at 9:57 AM, John Suburbs said:

Maniacal behavior is a psychological/mental health issue. If Brandon had been a king and behaved the way he did, would he be considered mad? The only difference I see between him and Aerys is that Aerys had more political power to wield. So I contend that wolf blood and Targ "madness" might be caused by the same thing: some kind of reverse warg that allows animal minds to shape human minds in the infant or even in utero stages.

Just a thought.

I think he would be considered crazy, because didn't he like cut up Littlefinger after he lost? I don't know , but Brandon seemed a little extreme with his actions

On 5/3/2020 at 11:32 PM, glassgardens said:

He’s not a skin changer, but he is likely being warged by Sansa since after Lady died. He no doubt experiences this as singing, and it drives him to drink. Robin Arryn (Sansa’s cousin) experiences much the same thing at the Eyrie. Robin is being drugged to drown out the singing he hears, Sandor probably just drinks more.

”A voice from nowhere,” Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. “Spirits of the air!”

She starts warging him because he’s as close to a dire wolf as can be found in the South: he’s a great savage “half-wild” dog. Later, the Hound says to Arya that dogs and wolves are his cousins, and hers.

When I first read about where Lady dies, because it seemed really annoying that the other Starks could have a Direwolf but not Sansa, I was really ticked at Martin. It would seem kind of cool for the Hound to be a 'replacement' for Sansa since they have a special connection.

[Nagini's Neville]

On 4. Mai 2020 at 6:32 AM, glassgardens said:

”A voice from nowhere,” Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. “Spirits of the air!”

 

That's taken out of context though. He says that deliberately to mock Tyrion. I don't think that you can warg a human being in such a subtle way as you're suggesting. At least there is no textual evidence for that.

[glassgardens]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's taken out of context though. He says that deliberately to mock Tyrion. I don't think that you can warg a human being in such a subtle way as you're suggesting. At least there is no textual evidence for that.

Context is overrated. 
 

Arya and Bran are two of the most powerful skin changers in existence. All of the Stark babies are wargs, per GRRM. Who's to say Sansa doesn't have a variation that's powerful but as different from Arya's skill "as the sun and the moon"?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, redwolf@winterhell said:

I think he would be considered crazy, because didn't he like cut up Littlefinger after he lost? I don't know , but Brandon seemed a little extreme with his actions

He cut him badly after Petyr refused to yield following a number of smaller cuts and blows. It sounds like Brandon was just getting bored with the whole thing and decided to end it. And he did remove some of his armor after he saw how lightly armored Petyr was.

But Brandon has demonstrated his maniacal tendencies elsewhere, which is what prompts Ned to say he had the wolf blood. It just seems to me that the only reason we don't call this madness like the Targaryens is because Brandon did not have the unfettered power that Aerys had, nor the paranoia brought on by people trying to usurp his crown. And that leads me to believe that both phenomena are caused by something external mucking with an infant mind, whether it's a nearby animal, dragon dreams, etc.

Take a close look at Rickon throughout Game and Clash, BTW, and see if you don't spot glimpses where it is more Shaggy Dog in there that Rickon.

[redwolf@winterhell]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He cut him badly after Petyr refused to yield following a number of smaller cuts and blows. It sounds like Brandon was just getting bored with the whole thing and decided to end it. And he did remove some of his armor after he saw how lightly armored Petyr was.

But Brandon has demonstrated his maniacal tendencies elsewhere, which is what prompts Ned to say he had the wolf blood. It just seems to me that the only reason we don't call this madness like the Targaryens is because Brandon did not have the unfettered power that Aerys had, nor the paranoia brought on by people trying to usurp his crown. And that leads me to believe that both phenomena are caused by something external mucking with an infant mind, whether it's a nearby animal, dragon dreams, etc.

Take a close look at Rickon throughout Game and Clash, BTW, and see if you don't spot glimpses where it is more Shaggy Dog in there that Rickon.

Thank you for explaining further.

[Nagini's Neville]

19 hours ago, glassgardens said:

Context is overrated. 

lol alright then

19 hours ago, glassgardens said:

Arya and Bran are two of the most powerful skin changers in existence. All of the Stark babies are wargs, per GRRM. Who's to say Sansa doesn't have a variation that's powerful but as different from Arya's skill "as the sun and the moon"?

I don't doubt Sansa is a warg. GRRM has said as much. But there is still a big difference between warging an animal or warging a human being. I don't think you can just in a subtle way warg someone a little bit, without even knowing it yourself- that's all. The Hound doesn't need to be warged to act crazy, he's messed up enough on his own.

Also why would Sansa choose Sandor to warg and not Loras Tyrell? Why didn't she make him stop threatening to kill her? Warging is a big "intrusive" thing- it just doesn't make any sense to me and I don't think there is anything in the text that would suggest it. But I respect your opinion