Lose Your Purpose, Lose Your War

[Angel Eyes]

So I've been looking at why Robb lost his war in the books, and I believe that he lost his war because he lost sight of what he was fighting for: freeing his father and sisters. Because he let Sansa (and Arya) to rot in the Red Keep, his mother was desperate enough to free Jaime (going by the show's timeline he hasn't decided to marry Talisa), and that allowed Tywin to pull off the Red Wedding because the dissent in Robb's ranks (particularly among the Karstarks) led to him losing the Karstark infantry and forcing him to rely on the Freys. It's actually a recurring pattern in some characters. Robert Baratheon liked war for the purpose it gave him and when he had no purpose, he self-destructed; Stannis describes Robert as feeling relief when the Ironborn declared independence because war was something he could understand and gave him a reason not to spend his days drinking and whoring. Jon and Tyrion are at their lowest point when they have no purpose; Tyrion attempts to drink himself to death before he reached Meereen and Jon wanted to bugger off and die alone until Sansa came and gave him a purpose: take back Winterfell and help save humanity.

Point is in this series, if you lose sight of what your purpose, you lose your war.

[BlackLightning]

That's not exactly right.

The point of the series is that if you try to make the world a better place, you're probably going to be a tyrant who needs to be put down. It's better to just  accept the way things are and build more brothels...instead of say, more homes and schools.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

It was probably an easier out for our dinamic duo? Botch a character's purpose through shoddy plotting and have them die in disgrace?

[Angel Eyes]

1 minute ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

It was probably an easier out for our dinamic duo? Botch a character's purpose through shoddy plotting and have them die in disgrace?

This isn't solely for the dynamic duo, though you could apply it to them; Daenerys in particular because she lost sight of her goals; instead of flying up to the Red Keep and taking out Cersei directly, she attacked the civilians.

But it's something I saw with Robb and Robert in particular.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

Indeed. But Robb was curiously alike ol' Bobby B in that aspect for all that he should be such only in name and be Ned Stark's boy not some Southron playing at politics. Cursed name? Robert Arryn isn't looking lucky either. (Did turn up all suddenly handsome in the show, though.)

And my particular beef is actually for D&D turning characters even with dubious smarts into complete morons, let alone Robert Baratheon, whose lack of kingly traits needed no help from them. 

The Tyrells 'weren't much for fighting' or some such? Varys the protector of children? Tyrion the pacifist? Euron the Caribean Pirate? Darth Sansa?

It's easy for characters to loose their purpose and flounder if instead of having the decisiveness to accomplish a storyline full of enough complications and conflict.... you have Robb boink a nurse and forget about his war, let alone why he's fighting it. 

It's the story we were shown. 

[Angel Eyes]

8 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Indeed. But Robb was curiously alike ol' Bobby B in that aspect for all that he should be such only in name and be Ned Stark's boy not some Southron playing at politics. Cursed name? Robert Arryn isn't looking lucky either. (Did turn up all suddenly handsome in the show, though.)

It's easy for characters to loose their purpose and flounder if instead of having the decisiveness to accomplish a storyline full of enough complications and conflict.... you have Robb boink a nurse and forget about his war, let alone why he's fighting it. 

It's the story we were shown. 

He'd already forgotten why he was fighting by the time he had sex with Talisa.

[Angel Eyes]

24 minutes ago, It_spelt_Magalhaes said:

Indeed. But Robb was curiously alike ol' Bobby B in that aspect for all that he should be such only in name and be Ned Stark's boy not some Southron playing at politics. Cursed name? Robert Arryn isn't looking lucky either. (Did turn up all suddenly handsome in the show, though.)

And my particular beef is actually for D&D turning characters even with dubious smarts into complete morons, let alone Robert Baratheon, whose lack of kingly traits needed no help from them. 

The Tyrells 'weren't much for fighting' or some such? Varys the protector of children? Tyrion the pacifist? Euron the Caribean Pirate? Darth Sansa?

It's easy for characters to loose their purpose and flounder if instead of having the decisiveness to accomplish a storyline full of enough complications and conflict.... you have Robb boink a nurse and forget about his war, let alone why he's fighting it. 

It's the story we were shown. 

All true, unfortunately.

Also about purpose: this is one of the reasons why people ship Jon and Sansa because she gave him purpose after he just wanted to bugger off South and die after being resurrected.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

Still ew. 

I was all for the grand Stark pack reunion, after all, as far as all of Westeros and Jon himself knew, Sansa was the last of the Starks. 

Jumping from that to straight up Jonsa though? Is it not enough that they are family and together? Incest? Really? And these are mostly the same folks who shit on anything Targ? 

Just ew.

[Rose of Red Lake]

On 11/19/2019 at 3:09 PM, Angel Eyes said:

This isn't solely for the dynamic duo, though you could apply it to them; Daenerys in particular because she lost sight of her goals; instead of flying up to the Red Keep and taking out Cersei directly, she attacked the civilians.

I dont see how wars could ever be as neat and clean as that, especially for someone starting an unprovoked war with Westeros. Unless Dany gets special privileges that no one else in the story does. I think the idea is that if there is a story about war, you can die at any time, even at random and unexpectedly. I don't know if there's a larger message about losing your mojo, but it's an interesting point nonetheless. 

[Angel Eyes]

On 11/21/2019 at 11:08 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont see how wars could ever be as neat and clean as that, especially for someone starting an unprovoked war with Westeros. Unless Dany gets special privileges that no one else in the story does. I think the idea is that if there is a story about war, you can die at any time, even at random and unexpectedly. I don't know if there's a larger message about losing your mojo, but it's an interesting point nonetheless. 

I don’t think Daenerys gets special privilege, since most surviving characters up to the last season got their stories messed up, but this isn’t about that. It’s about losing sight of what you’re fighting for, and how it leads to destruction, and how some are pulled back from the brink (Jon comes to mind). Robert Baratheon liked war because it gave him a purpose to do something other than drink and whore, and he wasted away without a calling. Robb chose to invade the Westerlands instead of rescue his sister, and because he was unwilling to made a trade for them, Catelyn grew desperate enough to free Jaime as a bargaining chip.

[Angel Eyes]

On 11/21/2019 at 11:08 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont see how wars could ever be as neat and clean as that, especially for someone starting an unprovoked war with Westeros. Unless Dany gets special privileges that no one else in the story does. I think the idea is that if there is a story about war, you can die at any time, even at random and unexpectedly. I don't know if there's a larger message about losing your mojo, but it's an interesting point nonetheless. 

She forgot what she came to do; instead of taking the Red Keep and intimidating Cersei into surrender, she targeted civilians when she had already won the battle.