Kalbear Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, DMC said: Red herring as in it was distracting from the true foe/enemy/opposition/threat, which was Lady Trieu. That's not the only definition of red herring, but it's one of them. That also ruins half of the series and what the central themes were, but hey, fuck black people right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: That also ruins half of the series and what the central themes were, but hey, fuck black people right? How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 Just now, DMC said: How so? Trieu was not the main threat. had Will Reeves never told her about Dr. Manhattan she presumably would have been content torturing her father. Also had Trieu and will not intervened, Keene would be either president or god or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, DMC said: How so? Because the whole white supremacist bullshit was just trieu fucking around in order to get dr m power. The crisis of this season wasnt white supremacy- it was the power of godhood. So the Tulsa massacre, wills story, all of it- was entirely a red herring. None of it really mattered. Compare that to the original, where the ever present fear of nuclear armageddon is what drives the whole reason behind veidt and his plot. What is driving Trieu - daddy approval? That's entirely on brand for lindelof, but is pretty lame. The whole Tulsa storyline ended up being an interesting and irrelevant side note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Kalbear said: What is driving Trieu - daddy approval? That's entirely on brand for lindelof, but is pretty lame. I didn't get that at all. She wasn't looking for him on Europa, he had to beg for her help. maybe mommy approval, since she cloned her and all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Just now, RumHam said: Also had Trieu and will not intervened, Keene would be either president or god or both. This is where you fall down a rabbit hole. If Manhatten just had the wherewithal to intervene at opportune times, none of this was necessary. It's a story, as was Moore's comic, that's going to always have to be contrived when you have a god character like Jon or Superman. Anyway, Trieu always was going to intervene. That's the entire point that Laurie tries to tell them. She used Keene as a pawn from the beginning. I thought that was clear. 4 minutes ago, Kalbear said: Compare that to the original, where the ever present fear of nuclear armageddon is what drives the whole reason behind veidt and his plot. What is driving Trieu - daddy approval? That's entirely on brand for lindelof, but is pretty lame. The whole Tulsa storyline ended up being an interesting and irrelevant side note. Fair enough, maybe you're right. That's not how I take it, but I'm a dumb white guy. Totally get that's how others might. I mean, in terms of what I was complaining about the past couple weeks, I didn't want it to be like some wish fulfillment crap like Tarantino. So, I'm happy I'd didn't veer into the whole white supremacy thing and instead expedited it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, RumHam said: I didn't get that at all. She wasn't looking for him on Europa, he had to beg for her help. maybe mommy approval, since she cloned her and all She did both. She sent a ship to europa and froze him as a statue only to unfreeze him at precisely the time to witness her triumph and she mentions that several times. She even says it to him directly. But either way its very lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Also, my wife was incredibly angry at the artificial insemination thing. That's not remotely how that works, and even if it was - Bian's big fuck you to Veidt was...to carry a child of his he doesnt know about to term? That's not a womans revenge fantasy. That's a mans weird fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briantw Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I just finished the finale and I'm still not entirely sure if I loved it or hated it. I feel like the series kind of went off the rails after the Nostalgia episode (which was the best of the season imo), but at the same time it was just so batshit crazy that I also was on board. I need to rewatch the whole series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I really enjoyed the episode. It wrapped everything up for me. I don’t think Tulsa was a red herring. Tulsa created and shaped the central characters. Tulsa created the world they live in. It’s the background story. Like the real world. Racism motivates all kinds of people, and Keene and the 7k were motivated to capture Dr M because of it. Sure, Trieu was manipulating them behind the scenes, but she was manipulated by Reeves, who in turn worked with Dr M because he satisfied Reeves’ need for revenge for what happened in Tulsa and all through his life. But I agree the updated version of the turkey baster pregnancy was totally a male fantasy. On the other hand, it was a very comic book kinda event, and this was a comic book spin-off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 31 minutes ago, Triskele said: Was it ever explained why the Game Warden was acting as a warden? It didn't seem like it ultimately was motivated by Trieu or Manhattan unless I missed something. I interpreted that as the classic nurture over nature argument, which is always prevalent in this type of stuff. The rest of them lined up and clapped. The warden didn't because that's not how he was "programmed." It's not too different than Westworld, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leofric Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Triskele said: Was it ever explained why the Game Warden was acting as a warden? It didn't seem like it ultimately was motivated by Trieu or Manhattan unless I missed something. Total resemblance to the Man in Black from Princess Bride with that look. No explanation on Lube Guy? Veidt ordered him to be the game warden because he would go crazy in a perfect world with no conflict, he needed an antagonist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Silk Spectre II arrests Ozymandias with Rorschach-as-he-should-be as back up while Ozy is in the midst of offering her the imprisoned Nite Owl II's ship. That's deliverance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted December 16, 2019 Author Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Triskele said: No explanation on Lube Guy? Peteypeida explains Lube Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Still processing the finale but I think Will saying 'he could have done more' re: Dr Manhattan is directly talking about the white supremacy, and the passivity of Dr M as it relates to dealing with that - in addition, I think that's why Angela consumes the egg, because *she* is that non-passive person, after having experienced her grandfather's life ( and her own, obviously), that has a 'nose for white supremacy' and is the best person to combat it. I think that's what the show is trying to tell us anyway. I'm glad that Will & Angela shared that final conversation because for me they were the best parts of the show. I wish the last few episodes hadn't got lost in the plot so much, as I think those were the weakest parts of the show. I didn't *really* care about Ozy or Trieu and I think there is a stronger season in there that focuses less on them and more on Cal, Will & Angela and white supremacy ( but ymmv on this, as I know I'm advocating for the things I found interesting & more substantive) I still think it's a solid season of TV though, and an excellent Watchmen follow up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I also think it's important & informative to read reviews of the series by African-American critics 1. Here's Melanie Mcfarland for Salon 2. Joelle Monique for the AV Club 3. Angelica Jade Bastein for Vulture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mexal Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I loved the finale and the series as a whole. I really don’t have any of the issues that people here do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeyjack Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 Thought it was very good. The key question to me - and the main thing that determines how I'll think of the series - is whether (1) Jon allowed himself to be killed because that was how things had to be and he couldn't stop it, or (2) he determined that he was wrong person to hold so much power, wanted to pass it on to somebody who would do more with it, chose Angela to be next in line, and recognized that he needed to go through all of these steps to get her to a place where she would decide to take up the responsibility. Option 1 is garbage, and would hugely diminish the show for me. But Option 2 is pretty good. And I think it lines up okay. So I'm content to go with that, and feel really good about the series.* A few other things. Don't think the racism plot was undermined at all. They were still bad guys. They were just outdone by another faction (or multiple other factions really, since Trieu and Will/Dr. M weren't truly aligned). Also, overall, I enjoyed episode 1 and episodes 6-9 the most. The tone, style, and approach to story telling in those episodes resonated with me a lot. Episodes 2-5 were still okay, but they dragged a bit for me. *Spoiler for The Leftovers (seriously, don't click if you haven't seen the ending of that show) - Spoiler Interestingly, I felt kind of the same way about the ending for The Leftovers (which is one of my favorite shows ever). If Nora is telling the truth, then it is completely incomprehensible to me and destroys a lot of what I loved about the show. If she is lying, and her story is her way of coping and moving on, then it brings everything together in an extremely sad yet satisfying way that wraps it all up perfectly. Since the latter is the only answer that makes sense to me, I have to go with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 This is a very good summation of The Watchmen and its final episode -- and indeed, no one this morning among those who are paid to publish their thoughts even considers that the white supremacy aspect was anything but central -- and the point of -- of both the series and the final episode: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/16/arts/television/watchmen-finale.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Zorral said: This is a very good summation of The Watchmen and its final episode -- and indeed, no one this morning among those who are paid to publish their thoughts even considers that the white supremacy aspect was anything but central -- and the point of -- of both the series and the final episode: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/16/arts/television/watchmen-finale.html I disagree. Note that the white supremacy that that article talks about as central basically ends at the end of the 6th episode, so it really isn't an argument against this being forgotten or brushed aside. In fact, it says as much - that the racism angle is pushed aside to ask "who can be entrusted with power", and the statement is that neither a white man or a vietnamese woman can be. Again, compare to the book. If white supremacy was the key thing, how does this show resolve it in the same way veidt resolved world war and nuclear armageddon? And the answer is that...it doesnt. It kills some conspirators, but it also sets in motion a massive right wing backlash and removal of Redford and sets in motion nuclear armageddon again. Alternately it sets in a potentially benevolent god who rules the world and crushes freedom even further, but I guarantee you a white supremacy isn't going to go away with a black woman as god. So all that changed was that they succeeded in stopping saving the world, and the threat of white supremacy was a fairly myopic problem with no real addressing. Also, also, Trieu was SO DISAPPOINTING. The whole last episode was monologue after monologue. No amazing planning, no I did it 35 minutes ago. Just veidt talking (and what a stupid arc that was), then Trieu, then keene, then trieu again, talking all the while instead of getting shit done. And angela just stands there and talks to jon instead of fighting back or knocking trieu out or doing anything. And veidt - who beat rorschach and nite owl by himself and unarmed, who caught a bullet this episode - gets knocked out by a wrench? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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