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RumHam

Watchmen: Nostalgia is a helluva drug. (spoilers)

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I like this idea - if Watchmen does a second season, it should do Vietnam - because that's where the show fell flat.

Quote

 

For all the series is dedicated to moving black Americans from the margins to the center, “Watchmen” doesn’t eliminate the margins altogether. Rather, Vietnam and Vietnamese and Vietnamese-American people end up occupying that vacated space, but largely in service of other people’s stories.

Angela, for example, was born and orphaned in Saigon, but “Watchmen” only explores her relationship to Vietnamese culture in reference to bakery she runs as a cover for her real work as a cop. The lingering tensions between Vietnamese people who fought on the opposite side of the conflict are only expressed in the suicide bombing that kills Angela’s parents. In the finale, we learn that the trillionaire inventor Lady Trieu (Hong Chau) is the daughter of a Vietnamese domestic worker employed by the masked adventurer Ozymandias (Jeremy Irons), though we never learn anything more about the older woman. Though Lady Trieu is named for the Vietnamese woman who fought against a 3rd century occupation — a reference the show makes explicit in the finale — her motivations turn out to be oddly generic for a show that’s fascinated by the historically specific.

 

 

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The finale was like the show mostly was, fairly meh. The middle couple of episodes were pretty great but both the the start and the ending was mediocre.

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I liked it. It’s not joining The Leftovers as one of my favorite shows ever, but it was an entertaining season overall, and I’m glad they made it. I don’t have any problems with it that some here do, but everyone should at least be able to agree the cast was great. I’d watch more episodes about Looking Glass, Laurie, Angela, etc, if they did them, but if not this was a perfectly satisfying conclusion for me. 

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On 12/2/2019 at 9:25 PM, briantw said:

Well, Keene literally said that Judd was a member of the Seventh Kavalry (which we now know is basically Cyclops) and working with him, and then last night we found out his wife was totally in on the conspiracy.  He also had the KKK robe in his closet.

It's pretty obvious Judd was involved.

That doesn't mean he didn't come to like Angela after the White Night, though.  

 

I still have problems with Will's murder of Judd.  

At the time that we meet the elderly Will, from what he tells Angela; and what her later absorption of his memories imply, Will murdered Judd because Will was fed up with taking crap (killing, persecution, beatings of his own race and other minorities) from white supremacists; and selected Judd for killing because Judd had a KKK outfit as a family souvenir.  I don't think Will ever articulates his reason for murdering Judd.

Is it alright to kill someone who may be conspiring to commit a criminal act with intent to cause harm to the killer's race of people?  I don't know.  We don't know to what extent Judd was complicit, how much he knew.  I would have preferred there to be some clarification, i.e. that Judd couldn't wait for Keene to get Manhattan's powers so he could get a promotion when Keene became president or king of the world or whatever or that Judd was impatient for Keene to get Manhattan's powers so they could finally put black people in their proper place, etc.  

Though I can understand why Angela isn't going to turn her grandfather in for prosecution....

 

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On 12/4/2019 at 12:21 AM, Kalbear said:

But that's the thing - Keene was saying he put Judd in charge of the police to make sure that White night didn't happen again and things didn't go crazy too fast. And Judd's wife clearly was in on things and knew about Keeen'es plan to become blue man group - it seems pretty implausible that Judd didn't know about it either, with the KKK cloak and his painting that was a KKK relic in his house.

I really don't get the apologia for Judd. He's a fucking racist and Will saw right through him. He was literally a member of a group that descended from Cyclops and is trying to foment white power. He's also charming, as so many racist asshats are. Fuck that guy, and kill him again. 

 

Yes, but is it morally justifiable to murder someone because he is a racist and is trying in some way to "foment white power"?  How was he fomenting white power?  Was he fully aware of the plan to murder Doc Manhattan and give his powers to that nitwit Keene in order to harm black people and fine with it; or not only okay with it but actively participating in the planning and implementation of the conspiracy?  Or did Judd only know that they were going to use Dr. Manhattan in some way to advance their cause?

I don't know.  But I don't like the murder.  It does seem like Will is taking it upon himself to murder a racist.  Racists do not deserve death just unless they are committing crimes that deserve it.  People have the right to think bad thoughts and have attitudes we disapprove of; as long as they do not break the law (or deliberately hurt innocent people)

I don't know to what degree Judd was involved with the actual planning and implementation of the Cyclops plan to murder Dr. Manhattan and give his powers to Keene so that Cyclops could have a weapon with which to persecute minorities.  I wish there had been more clarification as to why Will chose to murder Judd.

 

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16 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Yes, but is it morally justifiable to murder someone because he is a racist and is trying in some way to "foment white power"?

I don't know to what degree Judd was involved with the actual planning and implementation of the Cyclops plan to murder Dr. Manhattan and give his powers to Keene so that Cyclops could have a weapon with which to persecute minorities.  I wish there had been more clarification as to why Will chose to murder Judd.

He wasn't just a racist, he was a senior member of a racist criminal organisation - we saw a pretty decent sample of what they got up to in the Nostalgia episode, and there's no reason to think they've cleaned up their act recently. He belongs in jail at the very least. Keene's plan seems to have been generally known by the 7K members, and Judd was personally monitoring Dr Manhattan for years - by faking a close friendship with Will's granddaughter, which it's reasonable for him to take personally. Oh, there's White Night, too - Judd was in charge of the murder of Angela's partner and the mother of the kids she adopted, along with many of her other colleagues, and the attempted murder of Angela herself. Vigilante justice is extremely problematic, but I'd shed no tears over Judd's death if he'd been a real person.

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26 minutes ago, felice said:

He wasn't just a racist, he was a senior member of a racist criminal organisation - we saw a pretty decent sample of what they got up to in the Nostalgia episode, and there's no reason to think they've cleaned up their act recently. He belongs in jail at the very least. Keene's plan seems to have been generally known by the 7K members, and Judd was personally monitoring Dr Manhattan for years - by faking a close friendship with Will's granddaughter, which it's reasonable for him to take personally. Oh, there's White Night, too - Judd was in charge of the murder of Angela's partner and the mother of the kids she adopted, along with many of her other colleagues, and the attempted murder of Angela herself. Vigilante justice is extremely problematic, but I'd shed no tears over Judd's death if he'd been a real person.

 

It's very likely that Judd belonged in jail.  But did he deserve to be murdered?  I didn't remember Judd being in charge of the murder of Angela's partner and his late wife, though.  (doesn't mean he wasn't, I just don't remember that detail) Do you happen to know in which episode it's said that Judd planned that murder, not to mention where it's confirmed that Judd tried to murder Angela?  And do we know that Judd was faking friendship for Angela in order to keep tabs on Dr. Manhattan - and does Judd deserve to die for that? 

I certainly don't shed tears for Judd; but justice is supposed to apply to people we don't like, people who have problematic attitudes, etc.  Nor does conspiracy to commit murder always get the same legal penalty as murder, as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong).  I'd also like to know if Will believed that killing Judd would slow down the implementation of Cyclops' agenda.

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Maybe Will saw Knives Out and thought the world wouldn't miss someone like Judd.

Edited by Raja

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3 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

It's very likely that Judd belonged in jail.  But did he deserve to be murdered?  I didn't remember Judd being in charge of the murder of Angela's partner and his late wife, though.  (doesn't mean he wasn't, I just don't remember that detail) Do you happen to know in which episode it's said that Judd planned that murder, not to mention where it's confirmed that Judd tried to murder Angela?  And do we know that Judd was faking friendship for Angela in order to keep tabs on Dr. Manhattan - and does Judd deserve to die for that? 

I certainly don't shed tears for Judd; but justice is supposed to apply to people we don't like, people who have problematic attitudes, etc.  Nor does conspiracy to commit murder always get the same legal penalty as murder, as far as I know (please correct me if I am wrong).  I'd also like to know if Will believed that killing Judd would slow down the implementation of Cyclops' agenda.

I'm pretty sure Will murdered Judd because that was one of the series of events that had to happen for everything to play out properly.  It seems clear that Manhattan was planning his own death and Judd's death was a stepping stone to get there, as it brought Spectre into the equation and she played a role as well.

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36 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Judd was a participant in the murder of dozens of police officers.

Also, didn't Judd claim to have killed the 7th Cavalry member who was sent to kill him on White Night.   I assume he had a body asproof, so was that a fanatical member who was willing to die for the cause?  Or did Judd slap a 7th Cavalry mask on some innocent man and kill him, in order to make himself a heroic survivor of White Night?

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I think the final eps did a good job of resolving the various plot threads...but the actual payoff was pretty low. Blake and Looking Glass (easily the best two characters in the show) did hardly anything at the end, apart from some weird whispered attempts to work out what was going on. And the villains' final gambits were all pretty lame. 

Angela had a good ending though.

Edited by Paxter

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It's definitely clear Judd was a racist who deserved what he got. I just don't understand why he did some of the things he did in the first episode. Namely authorize the unrestricted use of guns and go after that 7K plane so hard. I thought they were gonna go with "befriending Angela softened him and he was no longer fully on board with Keene's plan" but they didn't. 

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24 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It's definitely clear Judd was a racist who deserved what he got. I just don't understand why he did some of the things he did in the first episode. Namely authorize the unrestricted use of guns and go after that 7K plane so hard. I thought they were gonna go with "befriending Angela softened him and he was no longer fully on board with Keene's plan" but they didn't. 

Yeah I'm confused too on this point. He did seem very different from his wife, who was more of your typical KKK-style villain. 

I actually didn't mind the earlier episodes as much as others, but the Hooded Justice episode onwards really weakened the show for mine. 

Edited by Paxter

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20 minutes ago, Paxter said:

Yeah I'm confused too on this point. He did seem very different from his wife, who was more of your typical KKK-style villain. 

I actually didn't mind the earlier episodes as much as others, but the Hooded Justice episode onwards really weakened the show for mine. 

hmm, to me the hooded justice episode & the looking glass episode were the strongest episodes of the season.

The hooded justice one will probably stay with me for a long time.

Edited by Raja

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Stated by Keene, judd was specifically tasked with befriending angela and cal and keeping them close so they could betray her when they had all their shit in order. He was part of the white night plan as well, and was specifically brought in after so that they could keep a lid on things until they could figure out how to kill god. 

But again, that's where things fall apart when you start looking at them. Why authorize firearms? Why have 7k go and try and kidnap keene? Why tell LG anything at all, much less reveal the big lie? Why dont they just kill angela? Some of it got revealed as Typical Stupid Villain - like bringing Laurie into it instead of someone that's 7k FBI - but a lot of the generic plot doesnt make any sense at all with the new revelations. 

Another one that's odd - why on earth would trieu have to buy that specific plot of land if it's her rocketship? You're telling me that a ship that has artificial gravity and carbonite and can self pilot to fucking europa cant land where she wants on earth? 

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11 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Another one that's odd - why on earth would trieu have to buy that specific plot of land if it's her rocketship? You're telling me that a ship that has artificial gravity and carbonite and can self pilot to fucking europa cant land where she wants on earth? 

Eh, I'll give them a pass on that one. I real life they often don't know exactly where a crashing satellite will land until shortly before re-entry, they just have a window. She probably aimed for her land but something went wrong or someone forgot to carry the 1. 

wait but then she had the baby ready....so yeah doesn't really make sense why she waited until the last minute to secure the land. I guess you could say she always knew there was a chance it could miss her property and land on someone else's land so she had contingency plans to convince all her neighbors to sell, but that's straining. 

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46 minutes ago, Raja said:

hmm, to me the hooded justice episode & the looking glass episode were the strongest episodes of the season.

The hooded justice one will probably stay with me for a long time.

HJ ep was cool I’ll admit...but where was the payoff on all that background? The Cyclops storyline fell pretty flat for mine.

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

It's definitely clear Judd was a racist who deserved what he got. I just don't understand why he did some of the things he did in the first episode. Namely authorize the unrestricted use of guns and go after that 7K plane so hard. I thought they were gonna go with "befriending Angela softened him and he was no longer fully on board with Keene's plan" but they didn't. 

I'm thinking that he wanted to make sure no one was taken alive to be questioned.  

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