Watchmen: Nostalgia is a helluva drug. (spoilers)

[red snow]

I think lindelof was saying he felt the show should be like "fargo" in the sense each season could be its own thing eg do one set in hooded justice era or one focused on hunting down vigilantes etc, etc. Probably his way of getting out of doing another season if he isn't interested. So far he says he has no ideas but will commit one way or other in a few months. Guess money might inspire him but he's probably also wanting to guage reaction to season 1

[DMC]

On 12/18/2019 at 3:32 AM, Kalbear said:

Again, Judd was one of the masterminds behind the slaughter of most of the cops in Tulsa. How much more guilt do you need?

I think this woefully misses the basis of the complaints about Judd.  His death/murder is the entire inciting incident for the series, and he's set up in the pilot and that subsequent flashback as being very close to the main character.  And then...nothing other than a handful of second hand accounts from unreliable narrators.

In hindsight it makes sense because the season was already overstuffed and even glossed over more pertinent aspects - e.g. Trieu's past/machinations, but it's still something that remains distinctly incomplete that could and should be mined if there is another offering.

[Kalbear]

How is his wife an unreliable narrator? Heck, how is Keene? 

I dont think you need to make him a sympathetic character at all. Why bother?

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

How is his wife an unreliable narrator? Heck, how is Keene? 

I dont think you need to make him a sympathetic character at all. Why bother?

Keene definitely is an unreliable narrator.  We have zero first hand knowledge concerning the relationship between him and Judd, or if there even was one.  His wife is plainly more reliable, granted, but all this is still entirely missing the point.  My issue has nothing to do with his guilt but rather the details of his involvement.

Once again, has nothing to do with making him a sympathetic character.  Has to do with actually making him a character.  Why did he take it upon himself to be a father figure to Angela?  Why did Keene apparently rely upon him to perpetuate a rather preposterous task of actually being a part of the 7K/Cyclops while also in charge of taking them down?  Why does Will think murdering him will proverbially "start the clock"?  Why does he apparently have no one else within his command that was a co-conspirator?  And hell, how the fuck does he get ambushed in his own town on the way to visit an injured officer if he's in the good graces of both sides?  

Many if not all of these questions can be inferred or speculatively answered, but to me it's rather cheap to set him and more importantly his death up as so important and then just hand-wave his role the rest of the season.  You seem to have a bug up your ass that we all aren't just willing to dismiss him because he was a white supremacist.  If that's all that was to it, it's pretty vapid storytelling.

[Paxter]

On Judd, yeah, I think it was just bad storytelling. They sacrificed that plot line to stuff all the Dr Manhattan/Veidt/Trieu storylines into the last few eps. In fact, the whole KKK angle got pretty scant treatment post Hooded Justice, aside from the Keen speech.

[RumHam]

I read in one of the interviews that they were originally going to do ten episodes but didn't want to stretch the story too thin. Judd was probably a casualty of cutting it to nine. I know he said there was a lot of Lady Trieu stuff that never made it on screen.

 

[Heartofice]

On 12/21/2019 at 8:37 PM, red snow said:

I think lindelof was saying he felt the show should be like "fargo" in the sense each season could be its own thing eg do one set in hooded justice era or one focused on hunting down vigilantes etc, etc. Probably his way of getting out of doing another season if he isn't interested. So far he says he has no ideas but will commit one way or other in a few months. Guess money might inspire him but he's probably also wanting to guage reaction to season 1

That could be really good, although I feel like they have already blown their load by using Dr Manhattan and Ozymandius so centrally in this story. Those two were so central to the original story I feel that any subsequent season would feel quite distant from Watchmen as a brand. 

Overall I ended enjoying this first season, even if the show was a bit of a slow starter for me. In the end I'm not sure it felt all that coherent, the first few episodes feeling almost as if they had nothing to do with Watchmen, and were more of a KKK crime drama, and the last few episodes being a trippy sci fi superhero romp. 

My interest was really only piqued in the Nostalgia episode and maybe the penultimate episode with Dr Manhattan, other than that it kind of didn't have much momentum. I'll look forward to another season though.

[DMC]

42 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I feel like they have already blown their load by using Dr Manhattan and Ozymandius so centrally in this story.

They could explore what's going on with Night Owl and give him a story, while continuing Ozy, Laurie, and Angela's stories.  The bases for another offering are sitting right there.  But I understand Lindelof's reticence in trying to do it again, even if he is just angling for more money.  If he's not inspired to do it again, he shouldn't do it.  Instead, find someone talented that is inspired and has a cool idea.

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, nah said:

I could also see Trieu coming back with the fancy Jesus scars in her palms

LOL, not the worst idea in the world.  The entire idea of the finale - that Trieu intensely prepared for that moment her entire life and then was felled by frozen squids - is more preposterous than her coming back with stigmata.

[RumHam]

If they do a second season my vote would be for more minutmen stuff. But they'd have to come up with an interesting story to justify it without breaking canon. 

[red snow]

15 hours ago, RumHam said:

If they do a second season my vote would be for more minutmen stuff. But they'd have to come up with an interesting story to justify it without breaking canon. 

If they can do similar things to what they did with Hooded Justice then I'd be all for a minutemen focused season. Or shine some attention on a shocking point in american history like they did with season 1

There's also the possibility of there being some other team that existed between the graphic novel and the TV show.

17 hours ago, DMC said:

They could explore what's going on with Night Owl and give him a story, while continuing Ozy, Laurie, and Angela's stories.  The bases for another offering are sitting right there.  But I understand Lindelof's reticence in trying to do it again, even if he is just angling for more money.  If he's not inspired to do it again, he shouldn't do it.  Instead, find someone talented that is inspired and has a cool idea.

Night Owl seems the best opportunity and obvious gap regarding follow up of original characters. I think Lindelof is being genuine in this case. He's probably breathing a huge sigh of relief that season 1 was popular and well-received. Does he want to risk that again? I think he'll stay on as a producer but be more than happy to take a back seat. Money could help as an incentive but then again, I imagine Lindelof can command a decent sum. I'd be shopping around netflix or getting a sweet continuation of his HBO deal moreso than doing season 2. I'd really like to see him do a big show again - ideally one where he isn't restricted by existing material.

 

17 hours ago, Heartofice said:

That could be really good, although I feel like they have already blown their load by using Dr Manhattan and Ozymandius so centrally in this story. Those two were so central to the original story I feel that any subsequent season would feel quite distant from Watchmen as a brand. 

Overall I ended enjoying this first season, even if the show was a bit of a slow starter for me. In the end I'm not sure it felt all that coherent, the first few episodes feeling almost as if they had nothing to do with Watchmen, and were more of a KKK crime drama, and the last few episodes being a trippy sci fi superhero romp. 

My interest was really only piqued in the Nostalgia episode and maybe the penultimate episode with Dr Manhattan, other than that it kind of didn't have much momentum. I'll look forward to another season though.

I think they'd be best avoiding Dr Manhattan for a while as a more proactive Dr Manhattan could be very tricky to handle (although given the show's timetravel dynamics you'd imagine she won't be messing with the timeline).

It was a bit of a gamble how they slowly made it a more obvious sequel but I guess it didn't allow them to say "this is something different". I also see your point regarding season coherence with the first few episodes being quite different from later ones. What did the minutemen show really add beyond setting up the surprise? Trieu came in and out of focus quite a bit. The police department aspect of the show completely disappeared whereas it initially seemed like it could become a police procedural set in a weird masked vigilante race-issues world (which I'd still watch). Because from the actions of the masked police and interrogations they seemed far from good guys - although I guess that was sort of the point once it turned out it was a cover for allowing dodgy police behaviour.

Whatever they do with season 2, Lindelof added plenty of avenues for further exploration

[Spockydog]

edit: wrong thread.

[RumHam]

It appears there will be no second season. 

Quote

 

Lindelof told USA TODAY this week that he's told the story he wants to tell and has no interest in a second season, though he's "given my blessing" to HBO should it want to pursue a new installment with another writer-producer.

But [HBO programming cheif] Bloys concedes that's unlikely to happen: "It would be hard to imagine doing it without Damon involved in some way."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/tv/2020/01/16/watchmen-second-hbo-season-wont-happen-after-creator-bails/4491269002/

[DMC]

Oh well.  While as a fan I'd be very happy to see more, good for Lindelof to resist the temptation if he didn't have anything he thought was worth it.

[john]

The only disappointment for me is that it’ll have to now be evaluated on the strength of that one series, which didn’t quite live up to it’s potential.

[Heartofice]

THIS was the story Lindelof wanted to tell? Just that on it's own? Hmmm.

It was a decent first season, a bit loose and messy but I was giving it the benefit of the doubt because I assumed it would settle into something more interesting next time. But news that they probably weren't going to continue the story and now that there might never be a second season really doesn't do the show many favours. 

[BigFatCoward]

Finally finished it. Last episode was all rather silly, but not necessarily in a bad way. 

Not sad that there is no season 2, no huge unresolved cliffhangers. 

[Martini Sigil]

I'm a little bummed... I mean, I'll get over it, but I'd have preferred 2-seasons to wrap up some loose ends --like what happened, and will happen to Dan, what happens to Adrian, and the world beyond Tulsa, etc-- .... kind of like what they did with Counterpart. the one-season story didn't feel like a limited series to me... like there was an intention to have a S2... 

[Corvinus85]

I finally watched this. Binging this show was probably a different experience, as instead of discussing my confusion about stuff at the end of each episode, I just dove in to the next episode. OK, it took me about 5 days to watch it.

I quite enjoyed it, and binging it may be the way to go. The main plotline is broken more than once by non-linear storytelling and extensive background expositions, which are all wrapped in some excellent episodes, but might have been more annoying to watch on a week-by-week basis.

I was even liked that, for the most part, they managed to make Dr. Manhattan's involvement and ultimate demise believable and sensible. There were some issues, like why did he turn his back on that cannon?

A couple of questions: What was the point of Lube Man? What was the point of the suicide vest Kav guy taking the senator hostage at the funeral? 

[RumHam]

29 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I finally watched this. Binging this show was probably a different experience, as instead of discussing my confusion about stuff at the end of each episode, I just dove in to the next episode. OK, it took me about 5 days to watch it.

I quite enjoyed it, and binging it may be the way to go. The main plotline is broken more than once by non-linear storytelling and extensive background expositions, which are all wrapped in some excellent episodes, but might have been more annoying to watch on a week-by-week basis.

I was even liked that, for the most part, they managed to make Dr. Manhattan's involvement and ultimate demise believable and sensible. There were some issues, like why did he turn his back on that cannon?

A couple of questions: What was the point of Lube Man? What was the point of the suicide vest Kav guy taking the senator hostage at the funeral? 

https://www.hbo.com/peteypedia

Has some supplemental information that was released after each episode. Two of the last ones make it clear Lube Man was agent Petey and that he's gone rogue after the events of the finale. 

I think the suicide vest guy was the show's version of Veidt hiring someone to try to kill him to dodge suspicion in the comic.