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RumHam

Watchmen: Nostalgia is a helluva drug. (spoilers)

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1 minute ago, briantw said:

Didn't Keene say that she was the backup plan to draw Dr. Manhattan out due to their history?

That's what I thought as well, but that kind of got blown to shit by the idea that they didn't need to draw Dr M out. 

Now, there's another possibility - that they're going to use her to threaten Dr M into giving up his power. 

Oh, holy shit. Maybe that's it. They didn't see Cal go all Dr M and use his power on White Night; they saw Angela do it. She already has Dr M powers, and she's not aware of them. She's the one who did the autonomous reflex to blow away her attacker. And so they know that Dr M is around (but they don't know who it is, unlike Will) so they need to draw him out, but they also need a way to threaten because they know that somehow he can transfer his powers over. 

Hmm.

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Even better, his powers can be something like transferrable through time, IE, she would always have had them at some point. So we get the whole 'do it? What do you mean, do it? I did it 5 years ago'. 

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13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It suggests a whole hell of a lot more than that, like some big events. 

Nothing we haven't basically figured/expected though, no? 

I assume the redacted names are Keene and Cal/Jon. or maybe Angela if she gets Manhattanized in the finale. So Keene got his powers and then shit exploded and he died along with basically anyone else who could explain what happened to the FBI.  (Including probably poor Wade, who we know took a 7K mask from one of the dead ones) Am I missing something?

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So...if they don't take credit for it, people don't think it's 7k, and therefore they're in the clear? That seems like a kind of good plan if you're trying to lay low! 

I'm not sure if the 7K lettuce guy from the first episode was aware, but the cop did mention the Rorschach mask when he radioed in. Plus I get the impression that whenever a cop is murdered they just assume 7K. I don't think avoiding suspicion was really an option. So they rolled with it and did what was expected of them. That's my guess anyway. 

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The dilemma and paradox of those who live past, present and future simultaneously, knowing all, seems to conclude always in madness, or at best, disappearing from the mundane worlf, ascending to godhood, Their infinite looping chicken and egg existence is / becomes / was miserable.  Paul Atreides and the subsequent Dune messes come to mind with Dr. M.  But Dr. M's already a god? 

But what does it matter and who cares.  There is no point to it.  Of course there's no point to life either.  You're born, you live, you die and so does everything else.

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1 hour ago, Martini Sigil said:

The only reason I can think that Jon didn't disintegrate the tachyon gun was because there was an advantage to him getting "captured"... He'd seen it and knows what he's doing.... The creators/writers couldn;t have been so attentive to detail all season just to leave this gaping WTF, could they?

... could they?

The writers did make a point of having the dialogue between Dr Manhattan and Veidt where they reminisce about Manhattan knowing that Veidt would attempt to kill him, but letting it happen anyway..

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Nothing we haven't basically figured/expected though, no? 

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I assume the redacted names are Keene and Cal/Jon. or maybe Angela if she gets Manhattanized in the finale. So Keene got his powers and then shit exploded and he died along with basically anyone else who could explain what happened to the FBI.  (Including probably poor Wade, who we know took a 7K mask from one of the dead ones) Am I missing something?

 

There's a few things:

Spoiler

An entire hazmat team to deal with whatever huge explosion and horribleness that happened. Destruction raining down on Tulsa. Petey confirmed as Lube Man. (I"m amused that if you copy the text it shows up as 'placeholder name' and 'placeholder text'. 

But yeah, I think Tulsa exploding is kind of a big deal, and I don't know that people were expecting Tulsa to blow up. 

 

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Pardon my breathtaking ignorance, but is the latest still that this is just supposed to be a one season show only and that we have only this one final episode of Lindelof's Watchmen on HBO?  

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2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

There's a few things:

  Hide contents

An entire hazmat team to deal with whatever huge explosion and horribleness that happened. Destruction raining down on Tulsa. Petey confirmed as Lube Man. (I"m amused that if you copy the text it shows up as 'placeholder name' and 'placeholder text'. 

But yeah, I think Tulsa exploding is kind of a big deal, and I don't know that people were expecting Tulsa to blow up. 

 

I don't expect Tulsa to blow up. The Millennium Clock maybe, or part of Greenwood.  

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15 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Pardon my breathtaking ignorance, but is the latest still that this is just supposed to be a one season show only and that we have only this one final episode of Lindelof's Watchmen on HBO?  

Supposedly. Though, ya know, nothing ever ends. 

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Also, not sure if this really matters but:

Am I correct that while Manhattan obviously seeded life on Europa and created the Philips and Crookshanks infants is the machine that speeds up their development supposed to be something that Manhattan also created or did Veidt create that?  

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2 hours ago, Triskele said:

Pardon my breathtaking ignorance, but is the latest still that this is just supposed to be a one season show only and that we have only this one final episode of Lindelof's Watchmen on HBO?  

From what I've read, it was designed as a one season show to tell one story. 

Doesn't mean there won't be additional seasons, but next Sunday's episode should wrap up most of the loose ends from this season.

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16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

He is a senator from Oklahoma. He doesn't need a reason to be in Tulsa. Especailly for the week or so that he's doing this. It's not like he's been there forever or staying a really long time. 

 

Yes she does. He created that law that required all cops to hide their faces. So if the 7k is starting to kill masked cops again, then that is his issue..

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15 hours ago, Zorral said:

The dilemma and paradox of those who live past, present and future simultaneously, knowing all, seems to conclude always in madness, or at best, disappearing from the mundane worlf, ascending to godhood, Their infinite looping chicken and egg existence is / becomes / was miserable.  Paul Atreides and the subsequent Dune messes come to mind with Dr. M.  But Dr. M's already a god? 

But what does it matter and who cares.  There is no point to it.  Of course there's no point to life either.  You're born, you live, you die and so does everything else.

and thats why DR. M is so nonchalant to everything.

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16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That's what I thought as well, but that kind of got blown to shit by the idea that they didn't need to draw Dr M out. 

Now, there's another possibility - that they're going to use her to threaten Dr M into giving up his power. 

Oh, holy shit. Maybe that's it. They didn't see Cal go all Dr M and use his power on White Night; they saw Angela do it. She already has Dr M powers, and she's not aware of them. She's the one who did the autonomous reflex to blow away her attacker. And so they know that Dr M is around (but they don't know who it is, unlike Will) so they need to draw him out, but they also need a way to threaten because they know that somehow he can transfer his powers over. 

Hmm.

This is pretty sound and in line with my thoughts.

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13 hours ago, Triskele said:

Also, not sure if this really matters but:

Am I correct that while Manhattan obviously seeded life on Europa and created the Philips and Crookshanks infants is the machine that speeds up their development supposed to be something that Manhattan also created or did Veidt create that?  

I'm thinking Veidt created the machine, probably after he did something that got his first two caretakers killed and he needed replacements.   Dr M didn't need a machine to speed up the development of the first two babies.

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4 hours ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Yes she does. He created that law that required all cops to hide their faces. So if the 7k is starting to kill masked cops again, then that is his issue..

That is A  reason for him to be there. But he doesn't need that to go to his home state, especially since we're not talking about many days. So yes, you're right, this makes sense for him to go home for a while - but so does any number of things. So does him simply doing town halls or other public events. 

My point is that him doing this incredibly risky thing - bringing the feds in, even stoking more press about it before the feds - is a way to cause problems with his plan, and I'm very confused as to why he would need to do it at all. 

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On 12/10/2019 at 9:31 AM, Kalbear said:

it's very likely that he was what returned to earth and Trieu got him. He returns in the next year, 2015 or 2016, and Trieu is expecting him. Why? Dunno. My suspicion is that somehow, he was turned to bronze and the statue she has of him is, well, him. That she's had for display.

Presumably she rescues him; he makes the message out of corpses for her satellite to see, and he has no plausible way of constructing his own spaceship. Going to the trouble of bringing him back to Earth just to turn him into a statue doesn't seem very plausible.

On 12/10/2019 at 10:36 AM, Charlie Hustle said:

As stated they're not really racists

They really really are racists, whatever claims to the contrary they might make. Judd's apparent friendship with the Abars was actually about keeping tabs on Dr Manhattan.

On 12/10/2019 at 11:18 AM, Kalbear said:

Getting the attention of the feds is a Bad Thing. And specifically, it was not necessary at all. Let's assume that you're right and that they wanted an excuse to get Keene there. Cool, cool. Keene then uses his power specifically to get Laurie there after Judd, and he got the feds interested in Judd as a personal favor. But...why? Why bring in all that pressure and whatnot when they're so close?

Aside from the potential leverage over Manhattan, he really wants to get Judd's murder solved! The mysterious death of his top lieutenant so soon before the big day must be a major concern. While Judd is unlikely to have been the only 7K agent amongst the cops, the others presumably aren't in a position to redirect the investigation away from what the rest of the local cops all consider the obvious suspects. Keene needs someone competent and open-minded to take over.

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I thought the "A God walks into a bar" episode had some glaring plot-holes (some of which have been commented on by others).

 

- Why does Dr. Manhattan fall in love? At the end of Watchmen he was shown as becoming increasingly detached from humanity and his human emotions, completely unable to make his relationship with Laurie work. After 20 years I would expect him to be surfing the cosmos, not picking up girls in bars. There's also a bit of a bogus causal loop with his ability to experience all time simultaneously, where he goes to meet Angela because he knows he will fall in love with her, but wouldn't have fallen in love with her if he hadn't decided to meet her.

 

- How on earth did the 7th K manage to beat/disable Dr. Manhattan? It's established that he's basically immortal and that it's beyond the powers of even the smartest man on earth to harm him. That's what makes Veidt's plan to alienate him and make him leave via the cancer scare so brilliant. It's completely implausible that the 7th K red-necks (with whatever tech they cooked up) could better Veidt's ultimately fruitless efforts. Also, as has been said, Dr. Manhattan could have disintegrated all of them and their weapon with a single snap of his fingers. The only thing that makes sense is that he loses on purpose, somehow foreseeing a better outcome and doing an Endgame gambit, but to what end? I speculate that the whole plot may be an attempt by Dr. Manhattan to commit suicide by presenting himself as a threat and have Lady Trieu somehow destroy him with whatever it is she's building.

 

- Dr. Manhattan becoming human also seems like nonsense. It seems unlikely he would want to in the first place. The way he handles his relationship with Angela and its bumps seems completely different from the way he handles Laurie or his previous girlfriend (his colleague from the physics lab) and a being that exists at all times simultaneously doesn't learn from its past mistakes. Veidt's amnesia device which attaches to his frontal lobe (which it seems unlikely he even uses, as it has been established that his consciousness is not dependant on an organic brain, regardless of him adopting a human appearance) also seems far too gimmicky.

 

In short, the Dr. Manhattan we get seems very different to the Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. He's somehow living the Superman 2 subplot, but the whole point of his characterization in Watchmen is that such a powerful being would find it increasingly difficult to retain any semblance of humanity or attachment to humans (unlike Superman).

 

On 12/9/2019 at 11:28 PM, Kalbear said:

They didn't see Cal go all Dr M and use his power on White Night; they saw Angela do it. She already has Dr M powers, and she's not aware of them. She's the one who did the autonomous reflex to blow away her attacker. And so they know that Dr M is around (but they don't know who it is, unlike Will) so they need to draw him out, but they also need a way to threaten because they know that somehow he can transfer his powers over.

 

I think Dr. Manhattan's powers are somehow dependant on him perceiving the atomic structure of everything in order to manipulate it (kind of like Neo's powers stem from his consciousness of the Matrix), that said, at this point I wouldn't rule anything out...

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20 hours ago, Leofric said:

I'm thinking Veidt created the machine, probably after he did something that got his first two caretakers killed and he needed replacements.   Dr M didn't need a machine to speed up the development of the first two babies.

I think it's Veidts. I guess Dr Manhattan wasn't too bothered about the time it would take for adam/eve to grow.

22 hours ago, Mexal said:

This is pretty sound and in line with my thoughts.

It would also be very rewarding to discover that "how could she push that coffin" criticism be an actual valid plot point given it upset some people for some reason or other.

I think the issue with Dr Manhattan is that we're not supposed to be able to comprehend the causality of his actions - it's impossible. So I don't try to get too hung up on plot holes because I don't think we can really look at it that way without understanding how he comprehends things. What I enjoyed about the comic was that in many ways he's more powerless than anyone because he knows how things play out but can't change them. I tend to think of it along the lines of I can't change my past irrespective of knowing how it played out.

The problem is that it makes stories featuring Dr Manhattan very hard to connect with because he is so alien. So while it's a clever episode it left me a bit cold.

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5 hours ago, Mentat said:

In short, the Dr. Manhattan we get seems very different to the Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. He's somehow living the Superman 2 subplot, but the whole point of his characterization in Watchmen is that such a powerful being would find it increasingly difficult to retain any semblance of humanity or attachment to humans (unlike Superman).

I mean none of Watchmen the tv show is particularly similar to Watchmen the comic book series.  Veidt is not a crackpot inventor. Laurie is not a smart mouthed badass.  This is less of a problem but they both also seem a bit too young to me (is there not a mandatory retirement age for the FBI in this reality?)

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  Where’s all the airships?  Seems like the only reason this story needed to be Watchmen at all was because it would’ve been a hassle to invent their own super alien god guy.

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