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RumHam

Watchmen: Nostalgia is a helluva drug. (spoilers)

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8 hours ago, felice said:

Presumably she rescues him; he makes the message out of corpses for her satellite to see, and he has no plausible way of constructing his own spaceship. Going to the trouble of bringing him back to Earth just to turn him into a statue doesn't seem very plausible.

 

Maybe he was turned into a statue in order to bring him back to Earth.  A statue wouldn't need food and water and air, which means you could use a much simpler space craft to rescue him.     She may be keeping him a statue until she's ready to use him, as once he is reanimated he may be difficult to control.

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2 hours ago, john said:

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  Where’s all the airships?  Seems like the only reason this story needed to be Watchmen at all was because it would’ve been a hassle to invent their own super alien god guy.

I agree that the reasoning for Lindelof using Watchmen as the platform to tell this story is difficult to discern with one episode left.

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Even though I wasn't really sold by this latest episode - I think the show has done a lot of interesting stuff with both the characters from the comic & also really expanded upon the themes and the questions the comic was asking so I'll disagree that this isn't a 'Watchmen' show.

I think the show has suffered a little bit in trying to get all the pieces in the right place over the last two episodes and that has made me feel a little...disconnected? from the characters.

Edited by Raja

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8 hours ago, Mentat said:

- Why does Dr. Manhattan fall in love? At the end of Watchmen he was shown as becoming increasingly detached from humanity and his human emotions, completely unable to make his relationship with Laurie work.

Detached or not, he still wanted to make his relationship with Laurie work, he just didn't know how. Angela isn't Laurie, and for most of their relationship he was effectively human. And his disappointing experience with creating human-ish life would have made him reconsider the value of the real thing.

8 hours ago, Mentat said:

- How on earth did the 7th K manage to beat/disable Dr. Manhattan?

I'm not sure his perception of time actually makes sense, but even in the comic he gets surprised by some things when they happen even though he's previously mentioned that they're going to happen. He kills all the 7Kers he sees, but fails to notice the one who shoots him. He only knows about the threat of the tachyon weapon because it will be used on him, and he can't change the future (if he decided to change something based on knowledge of the future, the information motivating that decision would no longer exist, so the decision would no longer have happened). And he's disorientated by the recent restoration of his powers and memories.

2 hours ago, john said:

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  Where’s all the airships?

There was a backlash against advanced tech in the wake of the Squid event. And presumably the world has been more or less at peace for the last thirty years, which was his primary goal.

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3 hours ago, john said:

I mean none of Watchmen the tv show is particularly similar to Watchmen the comic book series.  Veidt is not a crackpot inventor. Laurie is not a smart mouthed badass.  This is less of a problem but they both also seem a bit too young to me (is there not a mandatory retirement age for the FBI in this reality?)

Lauire I get. If you read Peteypedia it explains she ditched her Silk Specter persona to fight crime as The Comedienne after the comic. So she spent ten years trying to be more like her dad, and then was arrested and soured on masked heroes altogether. Considering all the time that's passed her current personality fits. Personally I love it, she's my favorite character on the show.  

They definitely shouldn't have used Irons as 11/1/85 Veidt. But I'm ok with him being a defeated recluse after his fortunes turned and Redford told him to fuck off instead of giving him the praise and appreciation he was looking for. 

3 hours ago, john said:

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  

An unintentional side effect of the "Dr. Manhatten is a carcinogen" plot was everyone freaking out about the technology he helped create and trashing all their computers and other fancy technology. This also caused Veidt's company to lose a lot of money and influence. 

3 hours ago, john said:

 Seems like the only reason this story needed to be Watchmen at all was because it would’ve been a hassle to invent their own super alien god guy.

 

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I agree that the reasoning for Lindelof using Watchmen as the platform to tell this story is difficult to discern with one episode left.

HBO came to him about doing a Watchmen show, after first having discussions with Snyder. Supposedly they offered him Watchmen before he did The Leftovers and he said no. But then they asked again after The Leftovers and he had the Hooded Justice idea and said yes. 

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5 hours ago, john said:

I mean none of Watchmen the tv show is particularly similar to Watchmen the comic book series. 

Yeah, I disagree. I think the show has nailed the natural evolution of both Laurie & Ozy. In fact, the last few pages of the comic hint at Laurie evolving into being more like her father, and that's why to me this seems like a natural progression for her character, so 'smart mouthed badass' makes total sense to me :dunno:

In addition, the themes that the show is exploring is also in keeping with the comic book, imo.

I'm curious about the finale, but I feel like I don't have the emotional connection to these characters, besides maybe Regina King & Will Reeves given how plot heavy these last two episodes have been. I still think the show has had some *very* good episodes, namely the episode centering on Hooded Justice & the looking glass episodes

Edited by Raja

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

HBO came to him about doing a Watchmen show, after first having discussions with Snyder. Supposedly they offered him Watchmen before he did The Leftovers and he said no. But then they asked again after The Leftovers and he had the Hooded Justice idea and said yes. 

That doesn't sound like a very inspiring reason.  I agree with others that Lindelof has provided interesting takes on how Laurie/Ozy/Dr. M evolved over the past thirty years, plus the Hooded Justice idea is pretty cool and was executed well.  But I can't help but feeling like I'd be much more interested if Lindelof portrayed his take on white supremacy through an original (or perhaps an alternative IP) lens.

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Lauire I get. If you read Peteypedia it explains she ditched her Silk Specter persona to fight crime as The Comedienne after the comic. So she spent ten years trying to be more like her dad, and then was arrested and soured on masked heroes altogether. Considering all the time that's passed her current personality fits. Personally I love it, she's my favorite character on the show. 

She’s a good character, no argument there.  I just don’t buy that she is a good progression of the Laurie from the comic.  In 85 Laurie, who was already 35, was frustrated and emotional under pressure.  I can imagine she became stronger over time but where did the acerbic wit come from, you don’t just develop that.  And as I say, I don’t think Veidt or Manhattan are naturally progressed versions of their characters either.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

HBO came to him about doing a Watchmen show, after first having discussions with Snyder. Supposedly they offered him Watchmen before he did The Leftovers and he said no. But then they asked again after The Leftovers and he had the Hooded Justice idea and said yes. 

I get how it happened.  WB own a property they want to exploit for profit.  But I don’t think as a creative endeavour this story needed to be Watchmen.  Like @DMC says it would have also been interesting to see a story about police and racial tensions in a different setting.  It’s still a Lindelof HBO show with Regina King and Jeremy Irons, it would’ve probably hit without the Watchmen motif (and that’s mostly what it is).

1 hour ago, Raja said:

In addition, the themes that the show is exploring is also in keeping with the comic book, imo.

I’d say it was more like an exploration of vaguely similar themes through a more modern lens.  But aside from that the feel is not the same.  The comic felt more gritty and urban.  The show feels much more sci fi.  With a lot more silly hand wavy concepts like pills with memories in and mesmeric flashlights (to be fair I guess Moore did start that with the psychic squid concept).

Dont get me wrong, it’s good and I enjoy it.  I just think it’s something else, not really Watchmen.

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21 minutes ago, john said:

She’s a good character, no argument there.  I just don’t buy that she is a good progression of the Laurie from the comic.  In 85 Laurie, who was already 35, was frustrated and emotional under pressure.  I can imagine she became stronger over time but where did the acerbic wit come from, you don’t just develop that. 

I think the show is clearly showing her developing a milder version of her father's ( The Comedian) personality - And you know, she went through fairly significant life events during the comic, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that those led to the character she is in the show.

Edited by Raja

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On 12/9/2019 at 9:57 PM, Triskele said:

Also, not sure if this really matters but:

Am I correct that while Manhattan obviously seeded life on Europa and created the Philips and Crookshanks infants is the machine that speeds up their development supposed to be something that Manhattan also created or did Veidt create that?  

rewatching, Manhattan says he created two infants who "by virtue of accelerated bio-mechanical maturation would soon become a man and a woman."

Which makes sense cause how would Veidt make such a thing with the limited technology and materials available to him?

Edited by RumHam

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5 hours ago, RumHam said:

An unintentional side effect of the "Dr. Manhatten is a carcinogen" plot was everyone freaking out about the technology he helped create and trashing all their computers and other fancy technology.

That and advanced technology apparently opening the door to the Squid dimension.

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2 hours ago, felice said:

That and advanced technology apparently opening the door to the Squid dimension.

Right, but that was a very specific type of technology, no? 

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22 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but that was a very specific type of technology, no? 

True, but people's reactions to that sort of thing aren't necessarily entirely rational.

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10 hours ago, felice said:

I'm not sure his perception of time actually makes sense, but even in the comic he gets surprised by some things when they happen even though he's previously mentioned that they're going to happen. He kills all the 7Kers he sees, but fails to notice the one who shoots him. He only knows about the threat of the tachyon weapon because it will be used on him, and he can't change the future (if he decided to change something based on knowledge of the future, the information motivating that decision would no longer exist, so the decision would no longer have happened). And he's disorientated by the recent restoration of his powers and memories.

Yup - he misses that one, because he's already missed that one. His memory of future events in no grants him foresight with agency when they come to pass. His future is also his past. He can speak his future memories even before they came to pass, because he's always remembered them and thus always been able to speak them. Being untethered in time really breaks the perception of agency.

So what are the chekovs various plot devices that we still need to see pay off in the finale? Aside from the obvious stuff like how the 7K tries to kill DM/take his powers and what is LT going to do. I'm thinking stuff like

  • The watch batteries.

I'm assuming these are going to be linked to the plan to kill DM.

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I only really would like to see a couple of things from the finale. Firstly, I hope the show sort of reckons with Dr M & his propensity to leave his girlfriend for someone younger. There's certainly a confrontation between Dr M & Laurie coming, but I feel like the finale has left itself *so* much to do, that this might be fairly short.

I'm kinda hoping that the finale isn't as plot heavy as the last few episodes, but that seems unlikely.

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On 12/11/2019 at 10:04 PM, john said:

The show feels much more sci fi.  With a lot more silly hand wavy concepts like pills with memories in and mesmeric flashlights (to be fair I guess Moore did start that with the psychic squid concept).

Dont get me wrong, it’s good and I enjoy it.  I just think it’s something else, not really Watchmen.

Wasn't an old villain in the comic a guy who could mesmerise people? I just figured he was using lights back then and this was his tech?

18 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yup - he misses that one, because he's already missed that one. His memory of future events in no grants him foresight with agency when they come to pass. His future is also his past. He can speak his future memories even before they came to pass, because he's always remembered them and thus always been able to speak them. Being untethered in time really breaks the perception of agency.

So what are the chekovs various plot devices that we still need to see pay off in the finale? Aside from the obvious stuff like how the 7K tries to kill DM/take his powers and what is LT going to do. I'm thinking stuff like

  • The watch batteries.

I'm assuming these are going to be linked to the plan to kill DM.

I'm hoping nite-owl appears. He seems to be the only character from the original who hasn't appeared but could. Other than some weird reason for bringing back Rorschach which i think would be a mistake.

For season 2 I'd like more emphasis on the next generation of heroes. A big part of the comic was the legacy aspect and the evolution of heroes. While it's maintained the original hooded justice to ozymandias legacy they've yet to explore the next generation. I guess the police force are semi vigilantes and the Vietnamese woman who took over from ozymandias are candidates but we haven't really seen any new heroes emerge or take up the mantle. Maybe because laurie hunts them all down.

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12 hours ago, red snow said:

Wasn't an old villain in the comic a guy who could mesmerise people? I just figured he was using lights back then and this was his tech?

There was Moloch the Mystic, he was like a stage magician so he could possibly hypnotise people but he didn’t use any tech as far as I know.

There’s plenty of fantastical tech in Watchmen the book but they don’t push suspension of disbelief quite as much as mesmeric flashlights or pills with nanotech memories in them (imo). Nostalgia was a perfume in the book with a subtle subliminal advertising campaign to help get people on board with Ozy’s scheme.

There’s also no explicit powers in the book EXCEPT Dr M and one random psychic medium that Moore probably put in because he believes in that kind of shit.  That’s presumably why Looking Glass can be a human lie detector.

 

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Yeah there is a lot to get through in this final ep. Personally I've really missed Looking Glass and Spectre - the show has been nowhere near as engaging from a character perspective recently.

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2 hours ago, Paxter said:

Yeah there is a lot to get through in this final ep. Personally I've really missed Looking Glass and Spectre - the show has been nowhere near as engaging from a character perspective recently.

Wade has to return in a big way in the finale.

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3 hours ago, Paxter said:

Yeah there is a lot to get through in this final ep. Personally I've really missed Looking Glass and Spectre - the show has been nowhere near as engaging from a character perspective recently.

Agreed. Looking Glass is probably my favorite character, and Laurie is a close second. 

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