Watchmen: Nostalgia is a helluva drug. (spoilers)

[.H.]

1 minute ago, RumHam said:

I don't get why he can't leave? Is it just that Manhattan made "don't leave" part of the clones core programming and they don't think Ozzy should leave either? 

But how would he actually leave?  He'd just die.

Even so, I think it's more that they want him to want to stay.  That is, they want him to be their master, but he has so much contempt for them that he has no desire to be a master of what he sees as idiots.  Sort of a Hegelian Lordship and Bondage dialectic in action.  But, such is my own demented bias of course.

[briantw]

Yeah I'd say the obvious reason they waited to strike was because they were perfecting the tech to take down Manhattan, hence why we've been shown them testing it in previous episodes.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, briantw said:

Yeah I'd say the obvious reason they waited to strike was because they were perfecting the tech to take down Manhattan, hence why we've been shown them testing it in previous episodes.

Then why not just kill angela? Why have that idiotic bomb threat at the funeral? Why release a video to terrorize? If their goal is to just take down dr m, and they know who he is and where he is, the best strategy is to be as quiet as possible and get as little attention as possible. Instead they actually themselves send the FBI to Tulsa on behalf of Keene, they do multiple attacks after being revealed including a God damned video, and they set up their attack outside of Angela's with a cannon on the back of a pickup truck. 

It is a ludicrously stupid plan. It's the opposite of veidt. 

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, .H. said:

But how would he actually leave?  He'd just die.

Right, I meant more why won't they allow him to leave. Though he really should have brought some kinda space ship instead of counting on Dr. M to be his ride home if he got bored. Really curious how he makes it back to Earth. 

Edit: I also don't get why Veidt doesn't just kill the game warden? He's killed so many other Mr. Phillipses and clearly still has great aim. 

[.H.]

27 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, I meant more why won't they allow him to leave. Though he really should have brought some kinda space ship instead of counting on Dr. M to be his ride home if he got bored. Really curious how he makes it back to Earth. 

Edit: I also don't get why Veidt doesn't just kill the game warden? He's killed so many other Mr. Phillipses and clearly still has great aim. 

Because they don't want him to die?  But I still think it's more that they feel the need to make him stay and make him want to stay.  Serving him is their whole Being.  They couldn't do that with Dr. Manhattan, because he just vanishes.  But they can try to ply Ozy.

I don't think he'd kill the Gamewarden for a similar reason why he wouldn't kill himself.  Or, why he allows the Gamewarden to try and jail him.  The Gamewarden is, for some reason, viewed as his "equal" or at least not as strictly inferior.  For whatever reason, Ozy respects the Gamewarden, or the Gamewardens authority, but he does not respect the following of the rules outside the Gamewarden's explicit decrees.

Also, there were only something like 7 candles on that last cake, so we are still not yet in 2019 with him on Europa, so he's got 3 years to do whatever it is he is going to do.

[Kalbear]

25 minutes ago, .H. said:

Also, there were only something like 7 candles on that last cake, so we are still not yet in 2019 with him on Europa, so he's got 3 years to do whatever it is he is going to do.

We now know he's been on Europa since 2009. There were 6 candles, so he's been there since 2015. Meaning that it's very likely that he was what returned to earth and Trieu got him. He returns in the next year, 2015 or 2016, and Trieu is expecting him. Why? Dunno. 

My suspicion is that somehow, he was turned to bronze and the statue she has of him is, well, him. That she's had for display. 

How did she know about Tulsa? Because of paradox shenanigans, basically, notably Will telling her about it and Dr M telling Will a whole lot. 

[Charlie Hustle]

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Then why not just kill angela? Why have that idiotic bomb threat at the funeral? Why release a video to terrorize? If their goal is to just take down dr m, and they know who he is and where he is, the best strategy is to be as quiet as possible and get as little attention as possible. Instead they actually themselves send the FBI to Tulsa on behalf of Keene, they do multiple attacks after being revealed including a God damned video, and they set up their attack outside of Angela's with a cannon on the back of a pickup truck. 

It is a ludicrously stupid plan. It's the opposite of veidt. 

You answered your own question, that was a reason for Keene to be there. Who is trying to take Dr. M powers. As stated they're not really racists, but that would get the attention of the Feds. And send Keene down there to be in place for when things pop off with Dr. M.

[RumHam]

15 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Also, don't read peteypedia for this week unless you want to be spoiled. It is set after whatever happens in the next episode.

It's not much of a spoiler, really. It suggests a specific character might have died but Petey doesn't actually know. The second file is spoiler free. 

I did not get the point of all that Fogdancer stuff, but I just read a comment elsewhere that that's basically what Lube Man was dressed as, and his lube was probably that SPF-666 stuff. 

3 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Why have that idiotic bomb threat at the funeral?

I saw that as the show's version of Veidt having someone try to kill him to divert suspicion. The idea that the bomb threat was an attempt to get Cal to blow his cover doesn't really hold up. They didn't have any of their equipment there to capture him. 

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Why release a video to terrorize?

Because they thought they'd killed a cop (which was unplanned) and as Keene said they always take credit when they do that. 

[Martini Sigil]

The only reason I can think that Jon didn't disintegrate the tachyon gun was because there was an advantage to him getting "captured"... He'd seen it and knows what he's doing.... The creators/writers couldn;t have been so attentive to detail all season just to leave this gaping WTF, could they?

... could they?

 

[Kalbear]

34 minutes ago, Charlie Hustle said:

You answered your own question, that was a reason for Keene to be there.

He is a senator from Oklahoma. He doesn't need a reason to be in Tulsa. Especailly for the week or so that he's doing this. It's not like he's been there forever or staying a really long time. 

31 minutes ago, RumHam said:

It's not much of a spoiler, really. It suggests a specific character might have died but Petey doesn't actually know. The second file is spoiler free. 

It suggests a whole hell of a lot more than that, like some big events. 

31 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I saw that as the show's version of Veidt having someone try to kill him to divert suspicion. The idea that the bomb threat was an attempt to get Cal to blow his cover doesn't really hold up. They didn't have any of their equipment there to capture him. 

We don't know they didn't have that equipment. But if Laurie isn't there, how does Keene escape? Or does he bother? I guess it would make some vague sense to have that as the way that he is 'captured' by the 7K and miraculously, accidentailly, is turned into Dr KKK. Okay, I can kind of buy that. It's pretty stupid, but it tracks. 

31 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Because they thought they'd killed a cop (which was unplanned) and as Keene said they always take credit when they do that. 

So...if they don't take credit for it, people don't think it's 7k, and therefore they're in the clear? That seems like a kind of good plan if you're trying to lay low! 

34 minutes ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Who is trying to take Dr. M powers. As stated they're not really racists, but that would get the attention of the Feds. And send Keene down there to be in place for when things pop off with Dr. M.

Getting the attention of the feds is a Bad Thing. And specifically, it was not necessary at all. Let's assume that you're right and that they wanted an excuse to get Keene there. Cool, cool. Keene then uses his power specifically to get Laurie there after Judd, and he got the feds interested in Judd as a personal favor. But...why? Why bring in all that pressure and whatnot when they're so close? Hell, they fucking kidnapped Laurie - why do that instead of kill her? But more importantly why bother with having her there at all? 

 

[briantw]

4 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Getting the attention of the feds is a Bad Thing. And specifically, it was not necessary at all. Let's assume that you're right and that they wanted an excuse to get Keene there. Cool, cool. Keene then uses his power specifically to get Laurie there after Judd, and he got the feds interested in Judd as a personal favor. But...why? Why bring in all that pressure and whatnot when they're so close? Hell, they fucking kidnapped Laurie - why do that instead of kill her? But more importantly why bother with having her there at all? 

Didn't Keene say that she was the backup plan to draw Dr. Manhattan out due to their history?

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, briantw said:

Didn't Keene say that she was the backup plan to draw Dr. Manhattan out due to their history?

That's what I thought as well, but that kind of got blown to shit by the idea that they didn't need to draw Dr M out. 

Now, there's another possibility - that they're going to use her to threaten Dr M into giving up his power. 

Oh, holy shit. Maybe that's it. They didn't see Cal go all Dr M and use his power on White Night; they saw Angela do it. She already has Dr M powers, and she's not aware of them. She's the one who did the autonomous reflex to blow away her attacker. And so they know that Dr M is around (but they don't know who it is, unlike Will) so they need to draw him out, but they also need a way to threaten because they know that somehow he can transfer his powers over. 

Hmm.

[Kalbear]

Even better, his powers can be something like transferrable through time, IE, she would always have had them at some point. So we get the whole 'do it? What do you mean, do it? I did it 5 years ago'. 

[RumHam]

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

It suggests a whole hell of a lot more than that, like some big events. 

Nothing we haven't basically figured/expected though, no? 

I assume the redacted names are Keene and Cal/Jon. or maybe Angela if she gets Manhattanized in the finale. So Keene got his powers and then shit exploded and he died along with basically anyone else who could explain what happened to the FBI.  (Including probably poor Wade, who we know took a 7K mask from one of the dead ones) Am I missing something?

13 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

So...if they don't take credit for it, people don't think it's 7k, and therefore they're in the clear? That seems like a kind of good plan if you're trying to lay low! 

I'm not sure if the 7K lettuce guy from the first episode was aware, but the cop did mention the Rorschach mask when he radioed in. Plus I get the impression that whenever a cop is murdered they just assume 7K. I don't think avoiding suspicion was really an option. So they rolled with it and did what was expected of them. That's my guess anyway. 

[Zorral]

The dilemma and paradox of those who live past, present and future simultaneously, knowing all, seems to conclude always in madness, or at best, disappearing from the mundane worlf, ascending to godhood, Their infinite looping chicken and egg existence is / becomes / was miserable.  Paul Atreides and the subsequent Dune messes come to mind with Dr. M.  But Dr. M's already a god? 

But what does it matter and who cares.  There is no point to it.  Of course there's no point to life either.  You're born, you live, you die and so does everything else.

[williamjm]

1 hour ago, Martini Sigil said:

The only reason I can think that Jon didn't disintegrate the tachyon gun was because there was an advantage to him getting "captured"... He'd seen it and knows what he's doing.... The creators/writers couldn;t have been so attentive to detail all season just to leave this gaping WTF, could they?

... could they?

The writers did make a point of having the dialogue between Dr Manhattan and Veidt where they reminisce about Manhattan knowing that Veidt would attempt to kill him, but letting it happen anyway..

[Kalbear]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Nothing we haven't basically figured/expected though, no? 

  Hide contents

I assume the redacted names are Keene and Cal/Jon. or maybe Angela if she gets Manhattanized in the finale. So Keene got his powers and then shit exploded and he died along with basically anyone else who could explain what happened to the FBI.  (Including probably poor Wade, who we know took a 7K mask from one of the dead ones) Am I missing something?

 

There's a few things:

Spoiler

An entire hazmat team to deal with whatever huge explosion and horribleness that happened. Destruction raining down on Tulsa. Petey confirmed as Lube Man. (I"m amused that if you copy the text it shows up as 'placeholder name' and 'placeholder text'. 

But yeah, I think Tulsa exploding is kind of a big deal, and I don't know that people were expecting Tulsa to blow up. 

 

[RumHam]

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

There's a few things:

  Hide contents

An entire hazmat team to deal with whatever huge explosion and horribleness that happened. Destruction raining down on Tulsa. Petey confirmed as Lube Man. (I"m amused that if you copy the text it shows up as 'placeholder name' and 'placeholder text'. 

But yeah, I think Tulsa exploding is kind of a big deal, and I don't know that people were expecting Tulsa to blow up. 

 

I don't expect Tulsa to blow up. The Millennium Clock maybe, or part of Greenwood.  

[Kalbear]

15 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Pardon my breathtaking ignorance, but is the latest still that this is just supposed to be a one season show only and that we have only this one final episode of Lindelof's Watchmen on HBO?  

Supposedly. Though, ya know, nothing ever ends. 

[briantw]

2 hours ago, Triskele said:

Pardon my breathtaking ignorance, but is the latest still that this is just supposed to be a one season show only and that we have only this one final episode of Lindelof's Watchmen on HBO?  

From what I've read, it was designed as a one season show to tell one story. 

Doesn't mean there won't be additional seasons, but next Sunday's episode should wrap up most of the loose ends from this season.