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RumHam

Watchmen: Nostalgia is a helluva drug. (spoilers)

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16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

He is a senator from Oklahoma. He doesn't need a reason to be in Tulsa. Especailly for the week or so that he's doing this. It's not like he's been there forever or staying a really long time. 

 

Yes she does. He created that law that required all cops to hide their faces. So if the 7k is starting to kill masked cops again, then that is his issue..

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15 hours ago, Zorral said:

The dilemma and paradox of those who live past, present and future simultaneously, knowing all, seems to conclude always in madness, or at best, disappearing from the mundane worlf, ascending to godhood, Their infinite looping chicken and egg existence is / becomes / was miserable.  Paul Atreides and the subsequent Dune messes come to mind with Dr. M.  But Dr. M's already a god? 

But what does it matter and who cares.  There is no point to it.  Of course there's no point to life either.  You're born, you live, you die and so does everything else.

and thats why DR. M is so nonchalant to everything.

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16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

That's what I thought as well, but that kind of got blown to shit by the idea that they didn't need to draw Dr M out. 

Now, there's another possibility - that they're going to use her to threaten Dr M into giving up his power. 

Oh, holy shit. Maybe that's it. They didn't see Cal go all Dr M and use his power on White Night; they saw Angela do it. She already has Dr M powers, and she's not aware of them. She's the one who did the autonomous reflex to blow away her attacker. And so they know that Dr M is around (but they don't know who it is, unlike Will) so they need to draw him out, but they also need a way to threaten because they know that somehow he can transfer his powers over. 

Hmm.

This is pretty sound and in line with my thoughts.

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13 hours ago, Triskele said:

Also, not sure if this really matters but:

Am I correct that while Manhattan obviously seeded life on Europa and created the Philips and Crookshanks infants is the machine that speeds up their development supposed to be something that Manhattan also created or did Veidt create that?  

I'm thinking Veidt created the machine, probably after he did something that got his first two caretakers killed and he needed replacements.   Dr M didn't need a machine to speed up the development of the first two babies.

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4 hours ago, Charlie Hustle said:

Yes she does. He created that law that required all cops to hide their faces. So if the 7k is starting to kill masked cops again, then that is his issue..

That is A  reason for him to be there. But he doesn't need that to go to his home state, especially since we're not talking about many days. So yes, you're right, this makes sense for him to go home for a while - but so does any number of things. So does him simply doing town halls or other public events. 

My point is that him doing this incredibly risky thing - bringing the feds in, even stoking more press about it before the feds - is a way to cause problems with his plan, and I'm very confused as to why he would need to do it at all. 

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On 12/10/2019 at 9:31 AM, Kalbear said:

it's very likely that he was what returned to earth and Trieu got him. He returns in the next year, 2015 or 2016, and Trieu is expecting him. Why? Dunno. My suspicion is that somehow, he was turned to bronze and the statue she has of him is, well, him. That she's had for display.

Presumably she rescues him; he makes the message out of corpses for her satellite to see, and he has no plausible way of constructing his own spaceship. Going to the trouble of bringing him back to Earth just to turn him into a statue doesn't seem very plausible.

On 12/10/2019 at 10:36 AM, Charlie Hustle said:

As stated they're not really racists

They really really are racists, whatever claims to the contrary they might make. Judd's apparent friendship with the Abars was actually about keeping tabs on Dr Manhattan.

On 12/10/2019 at 11:18 AM, Kalbear said:

Getting the attention of the feds is a Bad Thing. And specifically, it was not necessary at all. Let's assume that you're right and that they wanted an excuse to get Keene there. Cool, cool. Keene then uses his power specifically to get Laurie there after Judd, and he got the feds interested in Judd as a personal favor. But...why? Why bring in all that pressure and whatnot when they're so close?

Aside from the potential leverage over Manhattan, he really wants to get Judd's murder solved! The mysterious death of his top lieutenant so soon before the big day must be a major concern. While Judd is unlikely to have been the only 7K agent amongst the cops, the others presumably aren't in a position to redirect the investigation away from what the rest of the local cops all consider the obvious suspects. Keene needs someone competent and open-minded to take over.

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I thought the "A God walks into a bar" episode had some glaring plot-holes (some of which have been commented on by others).

 

- Why does Dr. Manhattan fall in love? At the end of Watchmen he was shown as becoming increasingly detached from humanity and his human emotions, completely unable to make his relationship with Laurie work. After 20 years I would expect him to be surfing the cosmos, not picking up girls in bars. There's also a bit of a bogus causal loop with his ability to experience all time simultaneously, where he goes to meet Angela because he knows he will fall in love with her, but wouldn't have fallen in love with her if he hadn't decided to meet her.

 

- How on earth did the 7th K manage to beat/disable Dr. Manhattan? It's established that he's basically immortal and that it's beyond the powers of even the smartest man on earth to harm him. That's what makes Veidt's plan to alienate him and make him leave via the cancer scare so brilliant. It's completely implausible that the 7th K red-necks (with whatever tech they cooked up) could better Veidt's ultimately fruitless efforts. Also, as has been said, Dr. Manhattan could have disintegrated all of them and their weapon with a single snap of his fingers. The only thing that makes sense is that he loses on purpose, somehow foreseeing a better outcome and doing an Endgame gambit, but to what end? I speculate that the whole plot may be an attempt by Dr. Manhattan to commit suicide by presenting himself as a threat and have Lady Trieu somehow destroy him with whatever it is she's building.

 

- Dr. Manhattan becoming human also seems like nonsense. It seems unlikely he would want to in the first place. The way he handles his relationship with Angela and its bumps seems completely different from the way he handles Laurie or his previous girlfriend (his colleague from the physics lab) and a being that exists at all times simultaneously doesn't learn from its past mistakes. Veidt's amnesia device which attaches to his frontal lobe (which it seems unlikely he even uses, as it has been established that his consciousness is not dependant on an organic brain, regardless of him adopting a human appearance) also seems far too gimmicky.

 

In short, the Dr. Manhattan we get seems very different to the Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. He's somehow living the Superman 2 subplot, but the whole point of his characterization in Watchmen is that such a powerful being would find it increasingly difficult to retain any semblance of humanity or attachment to humans (unlike Superman).

 

On 12/9/2019 at 11:28 PM, Kalbear said:

They didn't see Cal go all Dr M and use his power on White Night; they saw Angela do it. She already has Dr M powers, and she's not aware of them. She's the one who did the autonomous reflex to blow away her attacker. And so they know that Dr M is around (but they don't know who it is, unlike Will) so they need to draw him out, but they also need a way to threaten because they know that somehow he can transfer his powers over.

 

I think Dr. Manhattan's powers are somehow dependant on him perceiving the atomic structure of everything in order to manipulate it (kind of like Neo's powers stem from his consciousness of the Matrix), that said, at this point I wouldn't rule anything out...

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20 hours ago, Leofric said:

I'm thinking Veidt created the machine, probably after he did something that got his first two caretakers killed and he needed replacements.   Dr M didn't need a machine to speed up the development of the first two babies.

I think it's Veidts. I guess Dr Manhattan wasn't too bothered about the time it would take for adam/eve to grow.

22 hours ago, Mexal said:

This is pretty sound and in line with my thoughts.

It would also be very rewarding to discover that "how could she push that coffin" criticism be an actual valid plot point given it upset some people for some reason or other.

I think the issue with Dr Manhattan is that we're not supposed to be able to comprehend the causality of his actions - it's impossible. So I don't try to get too hung up on plot holes because I don't think we can really look at it that way without understanding how he comprehends things. What I enjoyed about the comic was that in many ways he's more powerless than anyone because he knows how things play out but can't change them. I tend to think of it along the lines of I can't change my past irrespective of knowing how it played out.

The problem is that it makes stories featuring Dr Manhattan very hard to connect with because he is so alien. So while it's a clever episode it left me a bit cold.

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5 hours ago, Mentat said:

In short, the Dr. Manhattan we get seems very different to the Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. He's somehow living the Superman 2 subplot, but the whole point of his characterization in Watchmen is that such a powerful being would find it increasingly difficult to retain any semblance of humanity or attachment to humans (unlike Superman).

I mean none of Watchmen the tv show is particularly similar to Watchmen the comic book series.  Veidt is not a crackpot inventor. Laurie is not a smart mouthed badass.  This is less of a problem but they both also seem a bit too young to me (is there not a mandatory retirement age for the FBI in this reality?)

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  Where’s all the airships?  Seems like the only reason this story needed to be Watchmen at all was because it would’ve been a hassle to invent their own super alien god guy.

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8 hours ago, felice said:

Presumably she rescues him; he makes the message out of corpses for her satellite to see, and he has no plausible way of constructing his own spaceship. Going to the trouble of bringing him back to Earth just to turn him into a statue doesn't seem very plausible.

 

Maybe he was turned into a statue in order to bring him back to Earth.  A statue wouldn't need food and water and air, which means you could use a much simpler space craft to rescue him.     She may be keeping him a statue until she's ready to use him, as once he is reanimated he may be difficult to control.

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2 hours ago, john said:

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  Where’s all the airships?  Seems like the only reason this story needed to be Watchmen at all was because it would’ve been a hassle to invent their own super alien god guy.

I agree that the reasoning for Lindelof using Watchmen as the platform to tell this story is difficult to discern with one episode left.

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Even though I wasn't really sold by this latest episode - I think the show has done a lot of interesting stuff with both the characters from the comic & also really expanded upon the themes and the questions the comic was asking so I'll disagree that this isn't a 'Watchmen' show.

I think the show has suffered a little bit in trying to get all the pieces in the right place over the last two episodes and that has made me feel a little...disconnected? from the characters.

Edited by Raja

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8 hours ago, Mentat said:

- Why does Dr. Manhattan fall in love? At the end of Watchmen he was shown as becoming increasingly detached from humanity and his human emotions, completely unable to make his relationship with Laurie work.

Detached or not, he still wanted to make his relationship with Laurie work, he just didn't know how. Angela isn't Laurie, and for most of their relationship he was effectively human. And his disappointing experience with creating human-ish life would have made him reconsider the value of the real thing.

8 hours ago, Mentat said:

- How on earth did the 7th K manage to beat/disable Dr. Manhattan?

I'm not sure his perception of time actually makes sense, but even in the comic he gets surprised by some things when they happen even though he's previously mentioned that they're going to happen. He kills all the 7Kers he sees, but fails to notice the one who shoots him. He only knows about the threat of the tachyon weapon because it will be used on him, and he can't change the future (if he decided to change something based on knowledge of the future, the information motivating that decision would no longer exist, so the decision would no longer have happened). And he's disorientated by the recent restoration of his powers and memories.

2 hours ago, john said:

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  Where’s all the airships?

There was a backlash against advanced tech in the wake of the Squid event. And presumably the world has been more or less at peace for the last thirty years, which was his primary goal.

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3 hours ago, john said:

I mean none of Watchmen the tv show is particularly similar to Watchmen the comic book series.  Veidt is not a crackpot inventor. Laurie is not a smart mouthed badass.  This is less of a problem but they both also seem a bit too young to me (is there not a mandatory retirement age for the FBI in this reality?)

Lauire I get. If you read Peteypedia it explains she ditched her Silk Specter persona to fight crime as The Comedienne after the comic. So she spent ten years trying to be more like her dad, and then was arrested and soured on masked heroes altogether. Considering all the time that's passed her current personality fits. Personally I love it, she's my favorite character on the show.  

They definitely shouldn't have used Irons as 11/1/85 Veidt. But I'm ok with him being a defeated recluse after his fortunes turned and Redford told him to fuck off instead of giving him the praise and appreciation he was looking for. 

3 hours ago, john said:

Theres also not much evidence of Ozymandias’ utopian future world.  

An unintentional side effect of the "Dr. Manhatten is a carcinogen" plot was everyone freaking out about the technology he helped create and trashing all their computers and other fancy technology. This also caused Veidt's company to lose a lot of money and influence. 

3 hours ago, john said:

 Seems like the only reason this story needed to be Watchmen at all was because it would’ve been a hassle to invent their own super alien god guy.

 

1 hour ago, DMC said:

I agree that the reasoning for Lindelof using Watchmen as the platform to tell this story is difficult to discern with one episode left.

HBO came to him about doing a Watchmen show, after first having discussions with Snyder. Supposedly they offered him Watchmen before he did The Leftovers and he said no. But then they asked again after The Leftovers and he had the Hooded Justice idea and said yes. 

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5 hours ago, john said:

I mean none of Watchmen the tv show is particularly similar to Watchmen the comic book series. 

Yeah, I disagree. I think the show has nailed the natural evolution of both Laurie & Ozy. In fact, the last few pages of the comic hint at Laurie evolving into being more like her father, and that's why to me this seems like a natural progression for her character, so 'smart mouthed badass' makes total sense to me :dunno:

In addition, the themes that the show is exploring is also in keeping with the comic book, imo.

I'm curious about the finale, but I feel like I don't have the emotional connection to these characters, besides maybe Regina King & Will Reeves given how plot heavy these last two episodes have been. I still think the show has had some *very* good episodes, namely the episode centering on Hooded Justice & the looking glass episodes

Edited by Raja

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

HBO came to him about doing a Watchmen show, after first having discussions with Snyder. Supposedly they offered him Watchmen before he did The Leftovers and he said no. But then they asked again after The Leftovers and he had the Hooded Justice idea and said yes. 

That doesn't sound like a very inspiring reason.  I agree with others that Lindelof has provided interesting takes on how Laurie/Ozy/Dr. M evolved over the past thirty years, plus the Hooded Justice idea is pretty cool and was executed well.  But I can't help but feeling like I'd be much more interested if Lindelof portrayed his take on white supremacy through an original (or perhaps an alternative IP) lens.

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Lauire I get. If you read Peteypedia it explains she ditched her Silk Specter persona to fight crime as The Comedienne after the comic. So she spent ten years trying to be more like her dad, and then was arrested and soured on masked heroes altogether. Considering all the time that's passed her current personality fits. Personally I love it, she's my favorite character on the show. 

She’s a good character, no argument there.  I just don’t buy that she is a good progression of the Laurie from the comic.  In 85 Laurie, who was already 35, was frustrated and emotional under pressure.  I can imagine she became stronger over time but where did the acerbic wit come from, you don’t just develop that.  And as I say, I don’t think Veidt or Manhattan are naturally progressed versions of their characters either.

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

HBO came to him about doing a Watchmen show, after first having discussions with Snyder. Supposedly they offered him Watchmen before he did The Leftovers and he said no. But then they asked again after The Leftovers and he had the Hooded Justice idea and said yes. 

I get how it happened.  WB own a property they want to exploit for profit.  But I don’t think as a creative endeavour this story needed to be Watchmen.  Like @DMC says it would have also been interesting to see a story about police and racial tensions in a different setting.  It’s still a Lindelof HBO show with Regina King and Jeremy Irons, it would’ve probably hit without the Watchmen motif (and that’s mostly what it is).

1 hour ago, Raja said:

In addition, the themes that the show is exploring is also in keeping with the comic book, imo.

I’d say it was more like an exploration of vaguely similar themes through a more modern lens.  But aside from that the feel is not the same.  The comic felt more gritty and urban.  The show feels much more sci fi.  With a lot more silly hand wavy concepts like pills with memories in and mesmeric flashlights (to be fair I guess Moore did start that with the psychic squid concept).

Dont get me wrong, it’s good and I enjoy it.  I just think it’s something else, not really Watchmen.

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21 minutes ago, john said:

She’s a good character, no argument there.  I just don’t buy that she is a good progression of the Laurie from the comic.  In 85 Laurie, who was already 35, was frustrated and emotional under pressure.  I can imagine she became stronger over time but where did the acerbic wit come from, you don’t just develop that. 

I think the show is clearly showing her developing a milder version of her father's ( The Comedian) personality - And you know, she went through fairly significant life events during the comic, I don't think it is unreasonable to think that those led to the character she is in the show.

Edited by Raja

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On 12/9/2019 at 9:57 PM, Triskele said:

Also, not sure if this really matters but:

Am I correct that while Manhattan obviously seeded life on Europa and created the Philips and Crookshanks infants is the machine that speeds up their development supposed to be something that Manhattan also created or did Veidt create that?  

rewatching, Manhattan says he created two infants who "by virtue of accelerated bio-mechanical maturation would soon become a man and a woman."

Which makes sense cause how would Veidt make such a thing with the limited technology and materials available to him?

Edited by RumHam

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5 hours ago, RumHam said:

An unintentional side effect of the "Dr. Manhatten is a carcinogen" plot was everyone freaking out about the technology he helped create and trashing all their computers and other fancy technology.

That and advanced technology apparently opening the door to the Squid dimension.

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