Heresy 228 and one over the eight

[alienarea]

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Are you suggesting that the tourney itself was sort of like a battle plan being acted out? That would be very covert.

I just had the thought and spilled it over heresy. 

I wouldn't put it beyond Rhaegar to arrange for weird things to match some prophecy.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

56 minutes ago, alienarea said:

If the Tourney of Harrenhal was a staged play, and Rhaegar winning might be a clue to that, then Lyanna's abduction was maybe part of the play? Some Southron play the Starks didn't know?

And by placing the roses in Lyanna's lap, Rhaegar indicates the change in the play, i.e. she will be abducted. That is why all the smiles died - they know.

As we are dealing with prophecy, this could lead to Rickard dying before Brandon (as I speculated a few times before), so both die Kings(in the North).

This is required to birth the dragon, and the night the Starks die, the Mad King rapes his wife and Daenerys is "made".

 

If the Starks knew Lyanna would be abducted...why would they do such an awful job preventing it?

[alienarea]

Just now, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

If the Starks knew Lyanna would be abducted...why would they do such an awful job preventing it?

Maybe the Starks didn't know because the were too Northern?

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

49 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, fresh perspectives are always good, which is why I suggested it. The invitation still holds good for 229

I'd really like to read what Corbon comes up with. 

But if we are ever pressed for a topic I think a good one would be " Is Bran is every Brandon?+ Can Bran talk to people through trees?+ Can Bran manipulate the past and maybe future too?"

Or maybe just predictions about what we expect to happen in TWOW specifically.

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

44 minutes ago, JNR said:

And here's a side point not often discussed.

While it's an old dream... one he's had before... it's also a dream Ned has not had for a very long time.  This means something has brought it back, inspiring Ned's dreaming mind to roll it out again and put it front and center in his thoughts.

And this bothers Ned a lot.

 

That begs the question... What caused Ned to have the dream again? And why did it bother him so much?

[LynnS]

43 minutes ago, JNR said:

And here's a side point not often discussed.

While it's an old dream... one he's had before... it's also a dream Ned has not had for a very long time.  This means something has brought it back, inspiring Ned's dreaming mind to roll it out again and put it front and center in his thoughts.

And this bothers Ned a lot.

Yes, what the heck is the catalyst?  If this is about Jon then he has gone to the Wall; a place that Ned thinks will give him a position and security.  While in fact it's the place where he is in the most jeopardy.
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

When he kept very still, his leg did not hurt so much, so he did his best to lie unmoving. For how long he could not say. There was no sun and no moon. He could not see to mark the walls. Ned closed his eyes and opened them; it made no difference. He slept and woke and slept again. He did not know which was more painful, the waking or the sleeping. When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises. When he woke, there was nothing to do but think, and his waking thoughts were worse than nightmares. The thought of Cat was as painful as a bed of nettles. He wondered where she was, what she was doing. He wondered whether he would ever see her again.

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII

The mention of dreams reminded him. "I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad."

"And why was that?" Luwin peered through his tube.

"It was something to do about Jon, I think." The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. "Hodor won't go down into the crypts."

The maester had only been half listening, Bran could tell. He lifted his eye from the tube, blinking. "Hodor won't …?"

 

 

[Lord Aegon The Compromiser]

22 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Maybe the Starks didn't know because the were too Northern?

Maybe. Just seemed like you included them as knowing as well. 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, where to start? It might be useful to look at the elements of Ned's dream as separate dreams that become conflated or connected to what I consider to be the oldest of Ned's dreams.   You can argue that his dreams of Lyanna (which are not always connected to the ToJ)

Lyanna is never mentioned as a subject of his dreams. There is just the one set of dreams mentioned as "dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." which I think we probably all agree is about Lyanna, even though she isn't mentioned. I think 'blood and broken promises' is itself a link to the ToJ via Lyanna's bed of blood (part of his ToJ dream title), and promises he made (and some he broke) to Lyanna in her bed of blood.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

and his dream of the Kingsguard are also old dreams and that's true.  But they are actual memories whereas the dream of the blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals blue as the eyes of death is not a memory but something more akin to a green dream.

Or a fever dream...

I know. I'm the guy always telling everyone that its not a fever dream, its an old dream. Thats because people use the fever dream aspect to rule out everything. There are clear aspects of un-reality though, especially at the end, and I put them down to the fever and muddled head from both fever and dream-state, interrupting or adapting the memory-dream.
Its the dream title that matters most for me. That part is not fever or dream-state addled, its Ned's conscious-level mind's descriptive title. This dream is 'that' old one, the whitecloaks/tower/LYANNAbedofblood one. It fades in, acts real and precise more like a memory, and towards the end starts going off the rails before Vayon Poole's voice intrudes and wakes him up.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

It has the same flavor as Jojen's dream of the sea coming to Winterfell. 

How so? We only hear about Jojen's dream indirectly and briefly. How can you possible tell it shares 'flavour' with Ned's dream that we see live from inside his head?

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned's dream is also a warning of things to come, a vision of ice and fire; the red comet, dragons and wights.  

Thats a fairly wide interpretation. I understand its possible, though its seems extremely tenuous to me.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

We don't know anything about Ned's early years other than he was fostered out to Jon Arryn; but according to Catelyn, he is devoted to the old gods; taking solace in the god's wood when his mind is troubled.  We could say he feels close to his gods.  So I don't think it's a far stretch to think he has received a vision from them. 

Its possible, I can concede that. But that seem like it would be not only a unique thing in Ned's experience, but also an odd and un-useful way for them to communicate with him. 
Sending their own dream would make more sense than highjacking, extremely vaguely and poorly, an older existing dream that is clearly based on memories of real events he lived through.
And why no follow-up on their part?

Seems far far more reasonable to just put the messy parts of the dream down to fever and dream-state than a unique, muddled, pointless and irrelevant Old Gods intervention.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

He may not understand the dream, but he is conflicted with a feeling of foreboding.

Err, you remember the position he is in? The conversations with Cat when they were deciding how to respond to Robert's invitations?
He doesn't need an Old Gods 'sending' to have a heck of a lot of foreboding right now...

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

The imagery of roses has wide interpretation.  What strikes me is that Rhaegar didn''t place the crown on Lyanna's head instead placing it in her lap.  All the smiles dies.  It's Ned who sees Lyanna's wearing the queen of beauty's laurel on her statue in the crypt.

Umm, you have the maiden seat in the stands. You have the victorious Knight still ahorse, with a garland crown to award. No doubt its recieved on the end of his lance (the he rides to his choice), and delivered the same way, and the natural delivery in such a case is too the lap, her hands, not the head, which is awkward.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is this why the smiles died? 

Surprise. Shock. Unexpectedness. Thinking through the implications...

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Was Rhaegar saying that Lyanna wasn't a virgin or is this how the onlookers saw the gesture?  Selmy thinks it's about love, Kevan Lannister thinks it's about beauty;

I think everyone has their own, different thoughts, and nearly all of them are wrong. They don't know the factors that really mattered.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned thinks it has nothing to do with love;  Lyanna is shamed and the Starks are pissed off.  What does Rhaegar think?

Where does Ned think it wasn't love? I don't recall, and can't find, any indication of Ned's own reaction?
Where is Lyanna shamed?
Brandon Stark was more than pissed off, where do you get any other Stark having any such reaction? Brandon is a hotheaded, arrogant, entitled douche who just lost to Rhaegar in the biggest event of his lifetime.

I think Rhaegar doesn't care what others think. I think Rhaegar thinks that this is a just and suitable reward for Lyanna's actions as the KotLT. I think Rhaegar thinks that any political implications will blow over in time as he resumes his husbandly place with his wife and shows no further regard for Lyanna.
I think its not until after Aegon is born and Rhaegar realises that he can't get his third head from Elia that he starts thinking about Lyanna again.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think Rhaegar is one of the few characters who might actually know something about the prophecy.  Something he refers to the song of ice and fire.  Did he recognize Lyanna's part, was the crown for one she would hold in her lap.  Did he know she would die?

I very much doubt the prophecy is that specific. His reference to the Song of Ice and Fire is months later after the birth of Aegon. I don't think he thought of Lyanna as having a part until he realised Elia could not provide the third head.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

The death of Arthur Dayne is something for which Ned is also conflicted.  We know he would have  killed Ned if it wasn't for Howland's intervention, whatever that was.  Howland couldn't let Ned be killed of course.  Ned has to be father to the next generation so important to the old gods. 

Err, Ned's his friend, and if Ned dies, then its Arthur against Howland and so does Howland and their mission. I don't think we need to rely on mystical reasons for Howland to help Ned in the fight.
Ned is conflicted because he respected Arthur Dayne, and didn't feel it was necessary to kill him, though Arthur clearly disagreed.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Ned might even consider Arthur's death dishonourable in some way.  It would certainly upset him to kill the brother of the woman he loved and a man he admired.

There is no reasonable indication Ned loved Ashara. She is entirely absent in his thoughts and even actions. Ned Dayne's evidence is clearly flawed, Barristan Selmy clearly doesn;t think Ned messed Ashara around, and the Harrenhal dance story actually reads more reasonably once you realise that it was Brandon who was hanging out with Ashara and he talked her into getting Ned off the bench in the corner to get Ned past himself and into the party, not because Ned wanted Ashara.
I can't agree that we can be certain Ned would be upset to kill Arthur more than any other man he respected.

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

What is significant about the death of Arthur is that the Dawn sword no longer has a master.  This is the the unique and singular magic sword in the whole story.  What is the connection to the song of ice and fire?

Must there be one? Why? Can there not be more than one significant tale in a world?

5 hours ago, JNR said:

And "all" presumably includes Lyanna's smile.  It died on the spot.

This ("all") is, oddly, one of the things I suspect is not literally true. Heck, I'm certain of it.

"All the smiles died" is a figurative speech pattern, rather than a literal speech pattern. It indicates that many, or most, or all-of-those-nearby smiles died, not that literally every smile in the entire place suddenly died. I'm sure that there were people there who didn't understand the significance, and saw a young and pretty maiden awarded. Their smiles probably died a bit later, when the other smiles dying clued them that something was wrong. I'm sure there were people. likely Rhaegar haters from court, who saw instantly the flaws in this action and smiled as they realised the ammunition Rhaegar had just given them.

I'm not sure whether Lyanna's smile died or not. She knows why she's been given the honour, and honour it is. The political relevance may not be immediately on her mind. 
Or maybe it was, and her smile did die immediately, I don't know.

5 hours ago, JNR said:

However, your larger point is that this memory is logically connected to the storm of rose petals in his TOJ dream. On that, you are undoubtedly correct.

I agree.

5 hours ago, JNR said:

I would hazard a guess that smiles died because Rhaegar had just snubbed his wife (who would have been very pregnant with his heir, if we are to believe the World book -- but that's another subject). And instead, he had demonstrated an extraordinary interest in this girl from the north, Lyanna Stark.

Sort of yes. Shock and surprise for the most part. I think it was very unexpected for almost everyone there.

5 hours ago, JNR said:

This would have struck the crowd of nobility as deeply problematic for many different reasons.  The political consequences alone would be a smoking hot mess, roughly like Bill Clinton announcing on national TV "This girl is far hotter than my wife Hillary," and then pointing to Monica Lewinsky on camera, so everyone could see whom he meant.

Perhaps. I agree there would be many different reasons and reactions, other than the initial surprise.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes that would be how it plays out for others in a politically charged event.  I question why Rhaegar was paying extraordinary attention to Lyanna.  We'll leave the smitten at first second glance aspect out of it.  

Is there any evidence he payed any attention to Lyanna at all, other than presenting her with the crown?
Before the months-later abduction that is, of course.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've said before that I think Rhaegar knew more about the prophecy than we have been told.  Speculation I know, but off page he spent a lot of time alone at Summerhall.  I imagine that he was seeking out the Ghost of High Heart, who may have traded visions for songs in an attempt to learn more.  Potentially, he was told something about the wolf girl, that  became clearer to him when he saw her at Harrenhal. 

Agreed.

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll go further and say that the sad song that Rhaegar sings and the sad tale of Lyanna (as mentioned by Meera) are one in the same.   

Thats... fanciful. You're saying that before Lyanna did the KotLT thing, Rhaegar sang a sad song that was actually about here, what she would do, what everyone else around her would do, and her ending? Obviously well disguised of course.

I rather suspect, being a melancholy sort of chap, and with the history his family has, he had plenty of other sad stories to sing rather than prophesying one of his own in the future.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As you may have surmised, the OP was a quick and dirty one written in haste and in need of expanding on.

Traditionally of course it has been read as a memory and by extension unutterable proof that Lyanna Stark died at the tower of joy

Its the title, not the memory-laced contents, that places here there, and his actual waking memories that tie in perfectly.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

as a result of giving birth to Jon and that the presence of the Kings Guard proves that he is of royal blood and therefore by extension is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, etc etc

Not their presence there as such, but the fact that they chose to ignore the entire remaining Targaryen family (on Dragonstone) while emphasising that they were kingsguard who held to their vows and loyalty to Aerys. they could easily have split at least one of their number off, but didn't.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As Lynn proposes the symbolism is of Ice and Fire, and its also about death; unnecessary death at that. The Kings Guard die for a lost cause, Lord Eddard's friends die and his sister Lyanna dies - and the grief is unassuaged by the birth of Jon Snow. Why?

Why would Jon Snow be enough to assuage Ned's grief? A bastard newborn nephew who will cause enormous problems forever, vs Lyanna and his closest friends? Not even close.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

WE can reasonably assume that the geography isn't important.

For the dream, for Ned, no. From GRRM to us, why not? Its a clue, something that helps us put together an accurate narrative.
Now we know that Ned went from breaking the siege of Storms End, via the Red Mountains of Dorne where he slew Arthur Dayne, or somewhere very close to them, then to Starfall to return Dawn. There are plenty of other places Ned could have gone that would have been a lot easier to get to Starfall by ship from. But the geography in the dream agrees with other memories that he went from Storms End to the red mountains of Dorne to Starfall.  

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its a dream and an old dream. There are all manner of dreams elsewhere in the book but none of them are memories.

Are there none? I have't checked in detail - seems like an enormous task! Is not Ned's other 'Lyanna' dream also memories? Are not Jon;s dreams of the grey walls of Winterfell not memories? Are Arya's dream of her father not memories? Tyrion's sweat-drench dreams of the Eyrie's skycells? Cersei's dream of the crone seems to be largely memory (as it was in life). Varamyr, Haggon and Bump?

While not all of these are necessarily memories, I think there's plenty of evidence that this statement is simply factually wrong. There are a number of dreams in the books that are memories.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

The two are quite distinct. All of the memories in this particular dream are linked by the symbology of Ice and Fire and Death.

How so? The memories seem to be just that, memories. There doesn't seem to be any symbolic linking. Just some weird dream/fever state symbolism at the end.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Its not a happy dream any more than all the other dreams which come to people in the night.

It seems the brain tends to go over troublesome memories during sleep, not happy, settled memories.

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

That begs the question... What caused Ned to have the dream again? And why did it bother him so much?

This to a very large degree is why its significant that its a dream. Its possible, and the faithful have done it often enough, to construct a plausible chain of reasoning as to why Lord Eddard might remember

But it isn't a memory, but a dream and a sinister one at that, which he has had in the past and as JNR points out the distant past at that. What I have trouble getting out of my head here is that elsewhere in the books, dreams [or at least those making it on to the page] are not sweet and random, but are the result of others getting into the head of the dreamer. Its Bloodraven, or Bran, or Quaithe messing with their minds for good or for ill

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, alienarea said:

I just had the thought and spilled it over heresy. 

I wouldn't put it beyond Rhaegar to arrange for weird things to match some prophecy.

It could be very confusing, even if everyone understood that some of the events during the tourney were symbolic. Apparently Lyanna's crowning was unexpected, and people were confused enough about it to "gasp". In our modern times we often take for granted the speed with which we communicate with each other, but in colonial days - and likely as far back as medieval days - people took a long time absorbing the contents of a letter, being careful to extract every meaning and intention behind every word before replying back. Catelyn certainly contemplated the meaning behind the lens that her sister had sent her:

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn II

Ned frowned. He had little patience for this sort of thing, Catelyn knew. "A lens," he said. "What has that to do with me?"

"I asked the same question," Maester Luwin said. "Clearly there was more to this than the seeming."

Under the heavy weight of her furs, Catelyn shivered. "A lens is an instrument to help us see."

"Indeed it is." He fingered the collar of his order; a heavy chain worn tight around the neck beneath his robe, each link forged from a different metal.

Catelyn could feel dread stirring inside her once again. "What is it that they would have us see more clearly?"

 

 

I think that might be the case with Lyanna's crowning. People were shocked by the action and were unsure what it meant.

 

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

If the Starks knew Lyanna would be abducted...why would they do such an awful job preventing it?

I don't think they knew she would be abducted. That's just one interpretation of how "playing at war" at a tourney might unfold. It's supposed to be an honor bestowed upon a maiden as having the strength of character to resist succumbing to lust. Which may be notable, because her betrothed was such a horn dog.  Maybe that was the message? A congratulations for resisting Robert's advances? Or good luck on resisting Robert until the marriage bed? I wish we knew when the betrothal took place, because if Rickard had informed Lyanna of the betrothal during the tourney, it might be a good reason why "the wolfmaid sniffled". 

6 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'd really like to read what Corbon comes up with. 

But if we are ever pressed for a topic I think a good one would be " Is Bran is every Brandon?+ Can Bran talk to people through trees?+ Can Bran manipulate the past and maybe future too?"

Or maybe just predictions about what we expect to happen in TWOW specifically.

I would love a discussion centered on Bran! Lets table the idea for Heresy 229.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, what the heck is the catalyst?  If this is about Jon then he has gone to the Wall; a place that Ned thinks will give him a position and security.  While in fact it's the place where he is in the most jeopardy.

The event that occurred immediately prior to the dream was the encounter that injured his leg - namely the attack by Jaime and his men when Ned came out of Chataya's after seeing one of Robert's bastards.

There are similar elements between the fight and his fever dream. Eddard IX details the events. Littlefinger was bringing Ned to see one of Robert's bastards. They rode down the street in the dark and in the rain. Ned's mind turns to the memory of Lyanna complaining that Robert will never keep to one bed, and she brings up Mya Stone in the Vale. She also famously said, "love is sweet, but it cannot change a man's nature". So far his thoughts are focused on Robert and his bastards. The mother of Robert's bastard looks so young, Ned doesn't dare ask her age, but he's convinced she had been a virgin. - Side note: she had red hair and freckles. Other maidens described with freckles are often killed or already dead, and I think the freckles are meant to evoke blood being spattered. 

Seeing Barra caused Ned to think of Jon. The young mother asks Ned to tell Robert how beautiful the child is. This request causes Ned to think back on Lyanna's pleading and how she made him promise. He followed that up with that Robert was prone to making promises that were forgotten the next day, but Ned kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made as Lyanna lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. 

I think its notable that Ned compared himself to Robert with regard to keeping vows. The subject was about Robert's technique of using promises in order to get a virgin into bed, but once he got what he wanted he moved on to the next girl. So IMO Ned isn't just thinking about the promises he made to Lyanna, he's thinking about his vows, as in marriage vows. 

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own - not so like his mother’s, but rather so much like Ned’s. To me this thought is very telling that Jon is indeed Ned's bastard, but Ned couldn't marry Jon's mother, because he made a vow to Catelyn and to Hoster Tully. Ned also thought dully, "If the gods frowned so on bastards, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Sounds like an admission that Ned felt lustful and that lust led to fathering Jon.

Ned and Littlefinger began counting off all of Robert's known bastards, and the discussion next turned to Jon Arryn's murder and how it might be connected to his sudden interest in Robert's bastards. Littlefinger suggested that Jon Arryn had been making sure all of Robert's bastards were being cared for. Ned didn't think that was a good enough reason to kill him. Littlefinger said, "Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." Ned could only frown at that, but he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen and whether or not he frequented brothels. Why would Jon Arryn's murder cause Ned to think of Rhaegar? The words that Littlefinger said that caused Ned to think of Rhaegar were this:

Quote

"Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east."

Lets be like people living in medieval times and take some time to study Littlefinger's words to see what meaning can be extracted, because my mind interprets this as Rhaegar possibly learning that Aerys had filled the bellies of "whores and fishwives" and fathered bastards, which falls under a pet theory of mine that Aerys was sacrificing bastards - "dragonseed" - in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast trying to hatch dragon eggs.

But what about the last part of Littlefinger's quote? What meaning can we extract about his comment that the sun rises in the east? Of course the sun rises in the east, so Littlefinger is trying to point out something that is obvious. With regards to Robert, everybody knew of his womanizing ways and the number of bastards, so was it an open secret about Aerys' bastards?

I've spent, perhaps, a little more time than I intended on what led up to the attack, because the attack and the parallels to the fever dream was the main purpose of this post. 

So Ned, Rory, and Wyl, are riding with Littlefinger in the dark and in the rain when suddenly Jory called out in alarm, "My lord!" In an instant the street was full of soldiers - Lannister soldiers, as evidenced by the golden lions on their crests, were there led by Jaime. Ned had no time to count, but he guessed there were at least ten of them, on foot, blocking the street, with longswords and spears. "Behind!" he heard Wyl cry, and when he turned his horse, there were more in back of them, cutting off their retreat.

Ned's fever dream had only seven against three, but this time Ned is among the "three". Jaime brought more than seven, and he said, "The wolves are howling. Such a small pack, though." And then, "You remember my brother, don't you, Lord Stark? He was with us at Winterfell.

Jaime attacked Ned, because Catelyn took Tyrion hostage. This is similar to what happened with Lyanna. Ned, along with Robert, attacked Rhaegar, because they thought he took Ned's sister. 

Jaime demands to know why Catelyn took Tyrion. Ned lied that she had done so at his command so Tyrion would be held accountable for "his crimes" - namely that he sent someone to kill Bran. IMO the parallel to this would be that Tywin had sent someone to kill Rickard's child - his daughter Lyanna, but a lie was formulated in that the wrong person got blamed. Just as the wrong person was blamed for trying to kill Bran.

Littlefinger leaves at Jaime's urging, but promises that he'll send the City Watch.

Next, Ned's men had drawn their swords, but they were three against twenty. That's a lot more than three against seven, but the main point is that it was an unequal fight. Ned warns Jaime, "Kill me, and Catelyn will most certainly slay Tyrion."

Jaime poked at Ned's chest with the same sword that killed Aerys and said, "Would she? The noble Catelyn Tully of Riverrun murder a hostage? I think ... not." 

It has been thrown about before that Lyanna was actually taken as a hostage. I agree with that, but I will go further and say the real kidnappers fully intended to kill her - and I believe that's exactly what happened to her - that she died of a sword wound that festered. The symbolism of Robert being gored by a boar is meant as a clue and I believe the man that wielded the sword used on Lyanna was Tywin's bannerman, Sumner Crakehall whose sigil is a boar.

Jaime decides against killing Ned, but orders Jory and Wyl killed as punishment:

Quote

 

"No!" Ned Stark screamed, clawing for his sword. Jaime was already cantering off down the street as he heard Wyl shout. Men closed from both sides. Ned rode on down, cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him....

 

Ned's leg was actually injured when his horse slipped under him and came crashing down in the mud. As he's trapped under his horse, he watches helpless while Jaime's men cut the legs off of Jory's horse and then they all circle and stab Rory to death - very reminiscent of the circle of white walkers that surrounded Waymar. 

When Ned's horse lurched to back to its feet, he tried to rise, only to fall again, choking on a scream. He could see the splintered bone poking through his calf. It was the last thing he saw for a time. The rain came down and down and down. When he opened his eyes again he was alone with the dead. His horse caught the smell of blood and ran away, so Ned had to drag himself through the mud. Littlefinger and the City Watch found him holding Jory's body. They brought Ned back to the castle on a litter, but he kept falling in and out of consciousness, but he remembered seeing the Red Keep looming ahead in the first grey light of dawn. The rain had darkened the pale pink stone of the massive walls to the color of blood. 

The next time he wakes, Grand Maester Pycelle was encouraging him to drink milk of the poppy. The next Eddard chapter is the fever dream.

[corbon]

 

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

I would have been happy to go with a subject of your choosing.  I'm not sure why it's not your place any more than it is mine.

Haha. Because if anything, I'm the anti-heretic, though I'm certainly not anti-heresy (just anti bad arguments). My thinking is 'plain', logical, non-mystical as much as is possible, though I don't deny the mysticism aspect of the series and world entirely, obviously. 
I like hanging out here because there are more interesting thoughts, of types that don't occur to me, than in the main forum. I don't agree with that many of them, but I do get at least to consider them, expand my understanding, learn about aspects and patterns that I couldn't possibly do on my own. I don;t really feel like I have anything to contribute as a basis for discussion.

Its not you, its me.

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Indeed, fresh perspectives are always good, which is why I suggested it. The invitation still holds good for 229

Heh, thanks, but no doubt I'll decline politely again. I'm a lieutenant, not a captain. Not that its about being in charge, but I do better following other thoughts than starting originals of my own. I don;t actually recall ever starting any thread, though its possible. 

2 hours ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I'd really like to read what Corbon comes up with. 

99.9% boring compared to the ideas usually coming out here. People are people, and do people stuff. There much much less deep plotting, and very little god-like overwatch or action by hidden powers in my ASoIaF. Just about the only recognisable act by the Old Gods is the extremely passive one of triggering the arrival of the direwolf pups.
Some examples:
There's no Night King just an old LC who went a bit rogue (perhaps!) and got some super-bad press afterwards by his victorious enemies.
There does seem to be some sort of cognisant "great Other" but he may be no more than a rogue CotF or something similar, not much different from Bloodraven.
Craster left his sons in the cold to die. So there were no rivals. No true 'sacrifice', do 'deal', that is just the excuse to keep the wives in line, and their 'the sons are coming' line is just their superstition. Its just 'normal' white walkers coming, nothing to do with Craster's sons.
Rhaegar honoured Lyanna for he KotLT exploits. He had no real interest in her at that time. There were neither politics nor romance involved in that act, but people misinterpreted it at the time because they didn't understand the real reason. Notice how there is no significant fallout beyond the instant reactions? Nothing at all further happens, at least as far as we know so far, until the abduction event months later after much has changed (most particularly, the arrival of Aegon and the implications of Elia being unable to birth a third child).
Rh'lor is mostly a human scam based around certain magical properties and rituals. Probably. True believers, but not a real 'actor'.

I do greatly respect LmLs ideas about pre-history

I think that gives you some idea. Not very heresy... 

 

[corbon]

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

It could be very confusing, even if everyone understood that some of the events during the tourney were symbolic. Apparently Lyanna's crowning was unexpected, and people were confused enough about it to "gasp". In our modern times we often take for granted the speed with which we communicate with each other, but in colonial days - and likely as far back as medieval days - people took a long time absorbing the contents of a letter, being careful to extract every meaning and intention behind every word before replying back. Catelyn certainly contemplated the meaning behind the lens that her sister had sent her:

I think this is an extraordinarily good point. And excellently backed up by the Catelyn example.
Thank you.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think that might be the case with Lyanna's crowning. People were shocked by the action and were unsure what it meant.

I absolutely agree. And I think many of them leapt to, or came to, different (and almost all wrong) conclusions.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The event that occurred immediately prior to the dream was the encounter that injured his leg - namely the attack by Jaime and his men when Ned came out of Chataya's after seeing one of Robert's bastards.

There are similar elements between the fight and his fever dream. Eddard IX details the events. Littlefinger was bringing Ned to see one of Robert's bastards. They rode down the street in the dark and in the rain. Ned's mind turns to the memory of Lyanna complaining that Robert will never keep to one bed, and she brings up Mya Stone in the Vale. She also famously said, "love is sweet, but it cannot change a man's nature". So far his thoughts are focused on Robert and his bastards. 

I don't agree with this focus. It was Lyanna, who led him to this. The recollection of her words, led to Robert's bastard Mya, and the parallel with Robert's bastard Barra, whom he'd just visited.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Seeing Barra caused Ned to think of Jon.

He'd promised bastard Barra would not go wanting
Recalling the promise to care for a bastard brings up Jon's face, and then to the treatment of bastards.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The young mother asks Ned to tell Robert how beautiful the child is. This request causes Ned to think back on Lyanna's pleading and how she made him promise.

One plea leads to the memory of another, similar plea.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

He followed that up with that Robert was prone to making promises that were forgotten the next day, but Ned kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made as Lyanna lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them. I think its notable that Ned compared himself to Robert with regard to keeping vows. The subject was about Robert's technique of using promises in order to get a virgin into bed, but once he got what he wanted he moved on to the next girl. So IMO Ned isn't just thinking about the promises he made to Lyanna, he's thinking about his vows, as in marriage vows. 

Lets look at the actual passage

Quote

"Tell him that when you see him, milord, as it … as it please you. Tell him how beautiful she is."

"I will," Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he'd paid to keep them.

Ned's not thinking of marriage vows. Its explicit he's thinking of his promises to Lyanna, nothing to do with marriage.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. To me this thought is very telling that Jon is indeed Ned's bastard, but Ned couldn't marry Jon's mother, because he made a vow to Catelyn and to Hoster Tully. Ned also thought dully, "If the gods frowned so on bastards, why did they fill men with such lusts?" Sounds like an admission that Ned felt lustful and that lust led to fathering Jon.

Except that the vows that were brought to mind were his vows to Lyanna, not Catelyn. Jon's face is bought to mind as the direct response to a promise about caring for a bastard - not his bastard, a plea from a mother to care for someone else's bastard, and promises by him to do so. This is clear from the parts you cut out of the quote.

Quote

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

Riding through the rainy night s not a new paragraph, isolated, later in time. Its the same paragraph, a continuation of him thinking over the meeting he'd just had. And its his promise to care for someone else's bastard that triggers Jon Snow's face.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Ned and Littlefinger began counting off all of Robert's known bastards, and the discussion next turned to Jon Arryn's murder and how it might be connected to his sudden interest in Robert's bastards. Littlefinger suggested that Jon Arryn had been making sure all of Robert's bastards were being cared for. Ned didn't think that was a good enough reason to kill him. Littlefinger said, "Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east." Ned could only frown at that, but he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen and whether or not he frequented brothels. Why would Jon Arryn's murder cause Ned to think of Rhaegar?

Ned's just been at a brothel, to save Robert's casual leavings, a bastard.
During which he was reminded of his promises to Lyanna, saving a different man's bastard.
There's a stark contrast between Rhaegar and Robert. And the next thought shows that this is why its come up. Did Rhaegar frequent brothels? He thought not.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The words that Littlefinger said that caused Ned to think of Rhaegar were this:

Lets be like people living in medieval times and take some time to study Littlefinger's words to see what meaning can be extracted, because my mind interprets this as Rhaegar possibly learning that Aerys had filled the bellies of "whores and fishwives" and fathered bastards, which falls under a pet theory of mine that Aerys was sacrificing bastards - "dragonseed" - in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast trying to hatch dragon eggs.

I don;t think a casual conversation has the same level of import, or depth, as do carefully considered written letters and gifts.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

But what about the last part of Littlefinger's quote? What meaning can we extract about his comment that the sun rises in the east? Of course the sun rises in the east, so Littlefinger is trying to point out something that is obvious. With regards to Robert, everybody knew of his womanizing ways and the number of bastards, so was it an open secret about Aerys' bastards?

If so, its funny its never come up anywhere else...

No, this is just a reference to the open secret that Robert frequents brothels and many bastards. Which does come up in many other places. But has to be kept 'secret' because Cersei's pride makes it dangerous to acknowledge. Cigar.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I've spent, perhaps, a little more time than I intended on what led up to the attack, because the attack and the parallels to the fever dream was the main purpose of this post. 

So Ned, Rory, and Wyl, are riding with Littlefinger in the dark and in the rain when suddenly Jory called out in alarm, "My lord!" In an instant the street was full of soldiers - Lannister soldiers, as evidenced by the golden lions on their crests, were there led by Jaime. Ned had no time to count, but he guessed there were at least ten of them, on foot, blocking the street, with longswords and spears. "Behind!" he heard Wyl cry, and when he turned his horse, there were more in back of them, cutting off their retreat.

Ned's fever dream had only seven against three, but this time Ned is among the "three". Jaime brought more than seven, and he said, "The wolves are howling. Such a small pack, though." And then, "You remember my brother, don't you, Lord Stark? He was with us at Winterfell.

So what I'm seeing is... no parallels at all. the numbers don't match (many vs 4 against 7 vs 3), the weather doesn't match, the locale doesn't match, the sides don't match, the verbals don't match or sync in any way, the results don't match... what actually matches???

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Jaime attacked Ned, because Catelyn took Tyrion hostage. This is similar to what happened with Lyanna. Ned, along with Robert, attacked Rhaegar, because they thought he took Ned's sister. 

Not remotely close. Never mind the reasons for the war, which don;t actually involve Lyanna directly, this is supposed to be about the fight at the ToJ. 

I'm giving up at this point, it just gets more tortuous and less parallel from here.

4 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The next time he wakes, Grand Maester Pycelle was encouraging him to drink milk of the poppy. The next Eddard chapter is the fever dream.

Yep.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

I'm giving up at this point, it just gets more tortuous and less parallel from here.

Poor Corbon! After posting I thought maybe my theories would cause your head to explode. You actually did fairly well.

[corbon]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Poor Corbon! After posting I thought maybe my theories would cause your head to explode. You actually did fairly well.

It was such a magnificent start too, the Catelyn example of how in those times there were often deeper things communicated and that they did look for those things. 

ETA: This, for example, is why I hang around and listen even when I think there are hugely flawed arguments being presented. Because you never know when or where the next striking point will come from. And people who think differently are more likely to make them than people who think the same.

I still think that doesn't apply so much to quips and casual conversation, but its certainly a striking point regarding letters and gifts and such.

[Lady Dyanna]

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

I just had the thought and spilled it over heresy. 

I wouldn't put it beyond Rhaegar to arrange for weird things to match some prophecy.

I believe that you might be correct. I haven’t analyzed this battle, but I believe that the tourney that was held for Ned becoming hand was in fact reflective of the battle plan from The War of Five Kings. 

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I believe that you might be correct. I haven’t analyzed this battle, but I believe that the tourney that was held for Ned becoming hand was in fact reflective of the battle plan from The War of Five Kings. 

That’s an interesting idea. Do you have any examples?

[Lady Dyanna]

33 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

That’s an interesting idea. Do you have any examples?

I think that this is where you need to look at house colors in relation to the horses and how they are adorned. For example, I believe that both Hugh of the Vale might actually represent the death of Jon Arryn. Loras Tyrell represents two different characters. In his multiple colored jewels he represents Brynden Tully. In his blue flowered armor he represents Lysa Arryn. (Clegane kills his horse and there is mention of an avalanche) 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, corbon said:

...Are there none? I have't checked in detail - seems like an enormous task! Is not Ned's other 'Lyanna' dream also memories? Are not Jon;s dreams of the grey walls of Winterfell not memories? Are Arya's dream of her father not memories? Tyrion's sweat-drench dreams of the Eyrie's skycells? Cersei's dream of the crone seems to be largely memory (as it was in life). Varamyr, Haggon and Bump?

While not all of these are necessarily memories, I think there's plenty of evidence that this statement is simply factually wrong. There are a number of dreams in the books that are memories.

How so? The memories seem to be just that, memories. There doesn't seem to be any symbolic linking. Just some weird dream/fever state symbolism at the end.

It seems the brain tends to go over troublesome memories during sleep, not happy, settled memories.

 

I'll rephrase my statement. The dreams have a significance beyond mere memory and GRRM's warning in that old SSM is quite clearly referring to more than cosmetic flourishes. I strongly maintain therefore that far from being a straightforward recital of events, Ned's "old dream" is directly comparable with Jaime's - and not improbably with a shared origin

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I'll rephrase my statement. The dreams have a significance beyond mere memory and GRRM's warning in that old SSM is quite clearly referring to more than cosmetic flourishes. I strongly maintain therefore that far from being a straightforward recital of events, Ned's "old dream" is directly comparable with Jaime's - and not improbably with a shared origin

I’m not so sure. I think that it might be a prediction of the battle for the dawn. The blue eyed lot v. the blood of the dragon. Thing is that we still don’t know that it’s inevitable. Sometimes it can be possible for fire and ice to coexist. However, that is only if both sides are willing to put in the effort to make it be that way. 

[Lady Dyanna]

If I look to the tale that Cersei tells of the Maegi, it seems to be told over again itself when Stannis murders Renly in the tent. There is an every green glow in both tents. However in this case due to the decisions they have made I believe that we are looking at a mirror image. Renly’s OLDER brother bleeds the life out of him, and he chokes on his own blood. This would actually make Marjory the Queen in question to be replaced.