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Heresy 228 and one over the eight


Black Crow

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7 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Shadrich is a potentially interesting character in that he was searching for Sansa, clearly recognised her, hangs around but hasn't yet claimed the reward. There's a big clue in the upcoming Aleyne chapter when he describes himself as a mouse with wings; die fleidermaus or bat, which suggests a Whent and takes us to Harrenhal

Oh Wow!.  I didn't think Martin gave him orange hair for nothing.  He also knows about Ser Dontos fleeing with Sansa from Varys.  It won't pass Varys notice that Petyr has a daughter Sansa's age all of a sudden.  

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I can’t help but wonder if we might be entirely too focused on things being a duality. Maybe it’s always needed to be a TRINITY all along. Father, Sin, and Holy Ghost. Or rather in this case Fire, Ice and a ghost (sacrifice) Maybe the outcome of the story depends on the sacrifice itself. Is it a willing sacrifice or not? Everyone is always free to make their own choices. Lyanna CHOSE to be a willing sacrifice to allow Ned to be able to take the throne. She was willing to be the scapegoat. Unfortunately it seems that her and Ned should really have talked first. Ned never wanted the throne so there was really no need for Lyanna to sacrifice herself. It was a needless sacrifice that ended in disaster. 
 

With Aerys we see the same thing. He is also more that willing to sacrifice his own son. Only Rhaegar. He isn’t willing. He WANTS to live. But that doesn’t seem to matter much to his dad. It could very well be that the Starks were trying to stay neutral in the upcoming battles, but when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna it forced the Starks into making a choice that they weren’t necessarily prepared to make. Lyanna was more than willing to sacrifice herself for her family, but in the end it was really never necessary. 
 

If this holds true I’d imagine that there are at least THREE possibilities. It’s never good to go to one extreme or the other. There’s always a middle ground. That’s the choice that does NOT end in disaster. In this case I think that maybe we need look at Jaime. He is more than willing to sacrifice himself for the cause and become a kings guard. His father is the one who is not happy with his decision to do so and tries to prevent this. His interference results in a war, but Jaime is then able to save kings landing from turning into a funeral pyre and in the process manages to live himself. Unfortunately it happened a bit too early for things to turn out the way that Tywin wanted completely. He would have preferred Tyrion to be the sacrifice. Just like Hoster Tully preferred for Lysa to be the sacrifice instead of Cat. As a matter of fact, Lysa WAS the sacrifice. Or rather Lisa’s unborn child. And not only does Littlefinger have access to Lysa. So does Jaime.  And there was a betrothal being discussed between Lysa and Jaime when he visited....

 

TLDR: I think we are looking for a total of NINE sacrifices. Three are important to our current story. They are the ones that resulted in Jon, Dany, and Bran. In this case Bran is the willing sacrifice that his mother tries to prevent. Jon is needlessly sacrificed. And Dany would be an unwilling sacrifice. 

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I guess the question remains if there is enough communication between the necessary characters to prevent disaster this time or if they make the wrong choice again. Sacrifice should only occur when needed and only if it is done willingly. Otherwise things tend to end in disaster. 

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Sometimes there is no further information available until there is. It’s only then that things become clear in hindsight. All that can be done in the meantime is to make the best choices possible based on the available information. Kinda sounds like the lesson someone like GRRM would like us to learn. 

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3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Shadrich is a potentially interesting character in that he was searching for Sansa, clearly recognised her, hangs around but hasn't yet claimed the reward. There's a big clue in the upcoming Aleyne chapter when he describes himself as a mouse with wings; die fleidermaus or bat, which suggests a Whent and takes us to Harrenhal

It's Fledermaus with capital F and without an i.

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13 hours ago, alienarea said:

It's Fledermaus with capital F and without an i.

So far Sansa and Bran have been described as winged wolves:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Arya XIII

"What wife?"

"I forgot, you've been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell's daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head."

That's stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not spells, and she'd never marry the Imp.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"My brother dreams as other boys do, and those dreams might mean anything," Meera said, "but the green dreams are different."

Jojen's eyes were the color of moss, and sometimes when he looked at you he seemed to be seeing something else. Like now. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

"Did the crow have three eyes?"

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Bran felt along his shoulders, groping for feathers.

There are different kinds of wings, the crow said.

The Fledermas,  The Bat also known as the Revenge of the Bat.   It seems that if Ser Shadrich describes himself as a winged mouse or bat; then he must be a Whent.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Whent

Describing Bran and Sansa as winged wolves with leathery wings; points to the connection to the Whents through Catelyn and her mother.

Quote

The Whents may have high cheekbones. Sansa Stark and her mother, Catelyn Stark, are known for their fine high cheekbones,[3] and Catelyn resembles her own mother, the late Minisa Whent, in her cheekbones and jaw  

If the Mad Mouse is a Whent; perhaps the son of Shella and Walter;  then Sansa is blood relation.

Quote

Elio has meanwhile also made another comment about reading a chapter with Sansa in the Vale and mentioned that "interesting things are happening in the Vale",

Spoiler

Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall. “My lady. My pardons if I took you unawares.” “The fault was mine. I did not see you standing there.” “We mice are quiet creatures.” Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though. “Will you be seeking wings?” the Royce girl said. “A mouse with wings would be a silly sight.” “Perhaps you will try the melee instead?” Alayne suggested. The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but there would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms. “A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

https://www.reddit.com/r/GRRMTWOW/comments/4m850z/alayne/?st=k3mvxazf&sh=533c8a2b

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Ser Shadrich laughed. "Oh, I doubt that, but it may be that you and I share a quest. A little lost sister, is it? With blue eyes and auburn hair?" He laughed again. "You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well."

Brienne kept her face a mask, to hide her dismay. "Who is this Sansa Stark, and why do you seek her?"

"For love, why else?"

She furrowed her brow. "Love?"

"Aye, love of gold. Unlike your good Ser Creighton, I did fight upon the Blackwater, but on the losing side. My ransom ruined me. You know who Varys is, I trust? The eunuch has offered a plump bag of gold for this girl you've never heard of. I am not a greedy man. If some oversized wench would help me find this naughty child, I would split the Spider's coin with her."

 

Any thoughts about where this is all going?  

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

So far Sansa and Bran have been described as winged wolves:

The Fledermas,  The Bat also known as the Revenge of the Bat.   It seems that if Ser Shadrich describes himself as a winged mouse or bat; then he must be a Whent.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Whent

Describing Bran and Sansa as winged wolves with leathery wings; points to the connection to the Whents through Catelyn and her mother.

If the Mad Mouse is a Whent; perhaps the son of Shella and Walter;  then Sansa is blood relation.

  Reveal hidden contents

Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall. “My lady. My pardons if I took you unawares.” “The fault was mine. I did not see you standing there.” “We mice are quiet creatures.” Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though. “Will you be seeking wings?” the Royce girl said. “A mouse with wings would be a silly sight.” “Perhaps you will try the melee instead?” Alayne suggested. The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but there would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms. “A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

https://www.reddit.com/r/GRRMTWOW/comments/4m850z/alayne/?st=k3mvxazf&sh=533c8a2b

Any thoughts about where this is all going?  

I think that maybe you might be going a step too far with this, but it might end up taking you to the same place. I think that maybe the wolves indicate STARKS. and the wings indicate DEATH. The colors involved also indicate the house, either literally or figuratively. If it’s a fake death the colors are reversed as in the case of Bloodraven. For Sansa it’s figuratively as she is in hiding as someone else. For Bran I believe it may be that he does become a greenseer and is assumed dead. Guess the question then becomes who the winged Beast might be. Is it Jon or Robb? Robb is already dead and I have read theories that he is currently residing in either Grey Wind or Cat that are more than plausible. If that’s the case then Jon may not truly NEED to be dead. If he is the chink in the wall is that a good thing or a bad thing? I guess it depends on the end result. 
 

I think that you might be right about Ser Shaderich though. SHADE is in both his name and the location he is from. The wings indicate death, and the reversed colors indicate it is a faked death. Is Oswald Whent still alive? 
 

Ugh. I’m not quite getting it right. Maybe we should create a key for it. 
 

1. Colors indicate the ASSUMED HOUSE

2. Animal type indicates ACTUAL HOUSE  

3. Wings indicate DEATH real or assumed. 

4. If colors are REVERSED you are a bastard.

Anyone see any more? 

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So far Sansa and Bran have been described as winged wolves:

The Fledermas,  The Bat also known as the Revenge of the Bat.   It seems that if Ser Shadrich describes himself as a winged mouse or bat; then he must be a Whent.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Whent

Describing Bran and Sansa as winged wolves with leathery wings; points to the connection to the Whents through Catelyn and her mother.

If the Mad Mouse is a Whent; perhaps the son of Shella and Walter;  then Sansa is blood relation.

  Reveal hidden contents

Alayne turned abruptly from the yard… and bumped into a short, sharp-faced man with a brush of orange hair who had come up behind her. His hand shot out and caught her arm before she could fall. “My lady. My pardons if I took you unawares.” “The fault was mine. I did not see you standing there.” “We mice are quiet creatures.” Ser Shadrich was so short that he might have been taken for a squire, but his face belonged to a much older man. She saw long leagues in the wrinkles at the corner of his mouth, old battles in the scar beneath his ear, and a hardness behind the eyes that no boy would ever have. This was a man grown. Even Randa overtopped him, though. “Will you be seeking wings?” the Royce girl said. “A mouse with wings would be a silly sight.” “Perhaps you will try the melee instead?” Alayne suggested. The melee was an afterthought, a sop for all the brothers, uncles, fathers, and friends who had accompanied the competitors to the Gates of the Moon to see them win their silver wings, but there would be prizes for the champions, and a chance to win ransoms. “A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

https://www.reddit.com/r/GRRMTWOW/comments/4m850z/alayne/?st=k3mvxazf&sh=533c8a2b

Any thoughts about where this is all going?  

Yes.Ser Shadrich is Howland Reed!

Maybe..

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1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that you might be right about Ser Shaderich though. SHADE is in both his name and the location he is from. The wings indicate death, and the reversed colors indicate it is a faked death. Is Oswald Whent still alive? 
 

Ugh. I’m not quite getting it right. Maybe we should create a key for it. 
 

1. Colors indicate the ASSUMED HOUSE

2. Animal type indicates ACTUAL HOUSE  

3. Wings indicate DEATH real or assumed. 

4. If colors are REVERSED you are a bastard.

This is very interesting because it fits with the plot of the Fledermaus where everyone is disguised as someone else or not what they seem.

I'm not really going anywhere with the wings except that The Crow may have been referring to other types of wings:  eagles, falcons, etc.  not necessarily bat wings.  Whereas Sansa looks like a Whent.  

I'm not sure that Ser Shadrich wants silver wings else it will tie him down to Sweetrobin for seven years.

I'm not sure what is controversial about the Sansa chapter or what Sansa fans might find disagreeable.  I don't even know what Sansa fans like.   

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16 minutes ago, redriver said:

Not mine, though it's one I like.The main points are in this link.

Not so sure about the ideas on Sers Morgarth and Byron.

I'll have a look.  Just trying to get a picture of Ser Shadrich.  Seems he fought for Stannis on the Blackwater.

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

"Aye, love of gold. Unlike your good Ser Creighton, I did fight upon the Blackwater, but on the losing side. My ransom ruined me. You know who Varys is, I trust? The eunuch has offered a plump bag of gold for this girl you've never heard of. I am not a greedy man. If some oversized wench would help me find this naughty child, I would split the Spider's coin with her."

 

 

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28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'll have a look.  Just trying to get a picture of Ser Shadrich.  Seems he fought for Stannis on the Blackwater.

 

The chestnut courser is interesting.It's not a horse you'd expect your average hedge knight to have. It is a trained battle horse. I believe Sansa rode a similar horse-was it during the bread riot?

Some have suggested Shady Glen could refer to Dusken Dale.Maybe it could refer to somewhere in the Red mountains of Dorne.

"The hidden valleys and high meadows of the Red Mountains have sweet and green grass.[7]"

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5 minutes ago, redriver said:

The chestnut courser is interesting.It's not a horse you'd expect your average hedge knight to have. It is a trained battle horse. I believe Sansa rode a similar horse-was it during the bread riot?

Some have suggested Shady Glen could refer to Dusken Dale.Maybe it could refer to somewhere in the Red mountains of Dorne.

"The hidden valleys and high meadows of the Red Mountains have sweet and green grass.[7]"

I just finished reading the link you provided.  Very interesting and well thought out.  The OP echoes some of my thoughts and questions.  In particular, Ser Shadrich's search for Sansa for love (rather than the love of gold); warning Brienne that others are also looking for Sansa are not as harmless as she thinks.  He really does put her on her guard.

I've suspected that Howland has already made an appearance in the story but I suspect him to be the High Sparrow working out his plan. He would be in a better position to do so as the High Sparrow than the Mad Mouse.   The Mad Mouse might still be a crannogman.

The reference to Shady Glen and Dusken Dale is resolved, I think.

We still don't know what Howland looks like to make a final connection.

Thanks for the link, I'll have to read it over several times.  

 

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9 hours ago, Travis said:

I just don't think GRRM is playing with us that much. Mr. Reed will appear when he appears. Or he won't.

I think he plays with his readers all the time.  He has said that he wanted to write a story where nobody could anticipate the plot and that he had deliberately laid down clues.  It's an open invitation to investigate and use one's noggin.  Otherwise, what would be the point of any forum at all.  He wants to surprise and delight the reader.  He's also very cagey when answering any questions.

Telling readers that Howland will make an appearance in the next book invites questions like  how he will appear, what we will learn.  I think it likely that Howland has already been introduced as a character in ADWD.  That would be a hell of a surprise, no?  I don't think he is just going to come striding off the page fresh from Greywater Watch.  Did you look at the link that Redriver provided upthread?  It's a strong argument that Martin has a mouse up his sleeve.

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22 hours ago, redriver said:

Not mine, though it's one I like.The main points are in this link.

Not so sure about the ideas on Sers Morgarth and Byron.

There is no denying that it's a strong case.  And pretty exciting either way.  I think he is right in his interpretation of Morgarth and Byron in that they can't be trusted. 

There are still things that nag at me.  I can't decide if Shadrich is a Whent; one of Lady Whent's unknown sons, one of her ghosts.  A mouse can easily keep out of sight at Harrenhal.  He might even overhear Howland praying for revenge.

Meera seems pretty definite that nobody knew if he was a crannogman or a green man or a child of the forest.

I leans towards crannogman, only because of his size but wonder about the green men.  Bran asks if they are green and really the question is what do they look like, what do they do on the Gods Eye, where do they come from?

Martin has said that they will make an appearance as well.  I assume they all come from Howland's people but Harrenhal is close as well.  It once held a large number of weirwood all cut down except for one tree with a face full of rage.

I assume that they are trained in combat to protect the Gods Eye and will make an appearance when the place is attacked. 

Their appearance is up for grabs.  I imagine that a green man might have feet like gnarled tree roots not unlike the High Sparrow.  Perhaps they are also warriors like Ser Shadrich trained in combat.  

Howland would certainly know how to ride a horse by now having ridden with Ned during the war and he would have combat skill to have survived the fight at the ToJ.  Perhaps he invoked some magic then to give himself strength and did the same at Harrenhal.   Part of the magic that he learned on the Gods Eye.

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