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Heresy 228 and one over the eight


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I'll post my standard response for Shadrich - that's he is who he says he is. People inflate his importance, because they subconsciously recognize a pattern. I've pointed out this pattern before, but it hasn't registered. His actions are an echo of two previous "turns of the wheel": Howland, and then Arya. 

Pretty Pig was the first to post a comparison of Howland's actions at the Harrenhal Tourney to Arya's Weasel Soup plan. I tagged on Shadrich as the third. You can see for yourself if you are so inclined to read the following:

KEY:  H = Howland , A = Arya, S = Shadrich

 

H:  The castle of Harrenhal is filled with people who have arrived for the tournement.

A:  The castle of Harrenhal is mostly empty; the people have departed for battle.

S:  Shadrich has become a symbol representing Harrenhal, because of the reference to a flying mouse, which could be a bat (Lothston, Harrenhal, etc)

 

H:  A guest from a noble northern house, Howland is persuaded to sit at the table with the other guests of high birth. He mingles with the members of other northern houses.

A:  A captive from a noble northern house, Arya is forced to serve the people at the table, and sleep and dine in the cellar. Arya cannot mingle with members of other northern houses, because they are imprisoned in the dungeons.

S:  Shadrich is with Brienne when they stopped for the knight at the Old Stone Bridge Inn. His meal and stay are paid for by his employer, a merchant, while Brienne pays for herself and the two penniless hedge knights Creighton and Illifer. I guess you could say they are all staying the night with a symbol of Harrenhal.

 

H:   At Harrenhal there is singing, dancing, and merriment, sounds of people having fun.

A:   At Harrenhal there is eerie silence and ghostly noises broken by sounds of general work.

S:   There were only six locals sitting at a table at the inn when Shadrich and Brienne’s party arrived. They hear the sounds of a roast spitting and crackling over a fire.

 

H:   Howland does not actively seek aid in getting revenge upon the three squires; instead, his friends the wolf maid and the pup offer to help him (their “father’s man”) challenge the squires by providing materials/assistance.

A:   Arya actively seeks help in fulfilling her plan (setting free her “father’s men”) by going to Hot Pie and Gendry for materials/assistance; they refuse her.

S: Ser Creighton, Ser Illifer the Penniless, and Brienne came upon a merchant who was protected by Ser Shadrich. The merchant produced a crossbow and called, “You will forgive me if I am suspicious, but the times are troubled, and I have only good Ser Shadrich to defend me.

 

H:  A young crannogman, small of stature and naïve to the ways of the big outside world.

A:  A young girl, small of stature and suspicious of the ways of the big outside world.

S: A wiry, fox-faced man, cocksure though no more than five foot two.

 

H:   With pledges of support of his new friends, Howland goes to the lake’s edge after the night’s festivities are over, casts his gaze to the Isle of Faces with its grove of weirwoods, and “said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck .  .  .”

A:   Without pledges of support of her old friends, Arya goes to the godswood of Harrenhal in the dark of night and says a silent prayer in front of the wicked & twisted heart tree.

S:  No mention of a prayer for our Ser Shadrich. You could turn this around and state that Shadrich didn't pray, but Brienne prayed to the Crone.

 

H:  Howland asks the gods for a way to win upon those who wronged him, but he won’t shame himself and his people. He desires to be brave.

A:  Arya desires vengeance on those who wronged her, and to restore pride to herself and her shamed (captured) people. She desires to be brave.

S: Shadrich is unafraid of the three knights (Creighton, Illifer, and Brienne) who he refers to as “old”, “fat”, and “a woman”. He mocks Brienne by noting, “You’re a strapping healthy wench, I’d say.” After Brienne says, “A giant, compared to some.” He laughed. “I am big enough where it counts, wench.” He also explains that while a common mouse will run from blood and battle, a mad mouse seeks blood and battle. Brienne prayed for the Crone to light her way to Sansa.

 

H: King Aerys offers ransom for capture of the Knight of the Laughing Tree

A: Arya holds Jaqen’s life ransom until he helps her release the northern captives

S: Shadrich tells Brienne he’s looking for Sansa in order to claim a ransom - Vary’s “plump bag of gold”.

 

H: Lyanna ends up missing - Rhaegar blamed for her abduction.

A: Arya escaped from Kings Landing. No one blamed. She escaped by disguising herself as a boy.

S: Brienne has gone missing, but she's only hiding from Shadrich.

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On 11/28/2019 at 11:22 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

You have gotta be kidding me. Who do you think would be a fat man pissed at a dwarf? Think hard. He wears lots of rings. 

I assume you mean Illyrio, and that would be a more obvious interpretation. In an earlier post, I had mentioned that Izembaro seems to channel a couple of characters, including Robert and Tywin. Illyrio could also be possible. However, we don't really know that Illyrio is "pissed" at Tyrion. I am not sure he cares about Tyrion much at all, even though he has Tyrion lined up in his plot for Young Griff. Tyrion didn't escape from the group that Illyrio placed him with, he was kidnapped by Jorah. And so far, Tyrion's words have served to motivate Young Griff in a way that Illyrio might like. Since we have not seen Illyrio since early in Dance, it's hard to say.

On 11/28/2019 at 11:22 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

And let’s see. Who could be related to a dog? Pretty sure that we have two here. Ramsey and uh, who was that again???? 
 

Seeing as the Hound doesn’t actually try to skin Sansa alive, but rather leaves her with a cloak of protection, how about you guess. 

I am not sure what you are trying to say with these comments. First, the Hound says this to Arya, not Sansa. Yes, the Hound does have two cloak incidents with Sansa, the first when he tosses a cloak towards her after Tyrion puts an end to Joffrey's ordered beating of the girl, and again after the Blackwater, when he leaves his cloak in her room. Neither time does he cloak her, but she does cover herself with these cloaks. He does act in a protective manner to her on several occasions, as he does to Arya. It's actually Arya that the Hound binds in a cloak at nights, although it's doubtful that it's his own cloak.

But what does this have to do with Sandor's threat to Arya, which ironically comes just after the Red Wedding? I was only pointing out the oddity of his threat, considering the recent betrayal of the Stark's and that Roose has had his bed covered in wolf skins at Harrenhal, a family history of skinning Starks, and he himself was one of the people who might have claimed Robb's remains. Certainly, the Hounds actions at the Twin's saved Arya (and himself) from falling into Roose Bolton's hands, and therefore Ramsay's. The Hound has certainly protected both Stark girls, and all hounds and wolves have skin's in common, and are cousins, of a sort.

Ramsay isn't related to a dog, although he does seem to have a dog pack he uses for hunting humans. That's pretty much his only dog imagery, and all he really seems to have symbolically done with that pack is in some way make Theon a part of it. 

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I do see additional parallels for Shadrich, for anyone that's interested...

ARYA:

Arya was intercepted by Sandor Clegane. First he brought her to the Twins with the intention of ransoming her to her brother, but he prevented her from going inside, because of the Red Wedding. All the while Sandor is traveling with Arya, even though she is his hostage, he treats her like his squire. The imagery is a distorted echo of Dunk and Egg.

Next he decided to bring her to the Vale of Arryn to ransom her to her aunt Lysa. When they stopped at a small village a man told them the high road was full of snow and warned about the mountain clans. Sandor wonders if he can write Lysa a letter. Sandor and Arya help the man build a palisade around his home, but after its finished, the owner wants them both to leave. He knows Sandor as Joffrey's dog. 

The village elder's daughter is of an age with Arya, but less mature. She carries a doll - a man at arms doll - and cries if she skins her knee. Arya is sick of the girl following her around, grabs the doll, tears it open, pulls out some of the stuffing, threw it in a brook and declared, "Now he really looks like a soldier." If this is an echo of Howland and/or Lyanna, it seems implied that they met a soldier and someone took a wound to the belly and ended up in the water.

After the girl stopped pestering her, Arya spent her days grooming their horses, Craven and Stranger, or sometimes she would find a stick and practice her needlework, but that would make her remember the Twins and the Red Wedding and she'd smash the stick against a tree.

Sandor tells Arya that the plan now is to go to Riverrun to see if her uncle Blackfish will pay a ransom. Arya is sick of heading for Riverrun, because she's been trying to reach Riverrun for what seemed like years, and she doesn't think the Blackfish even knows who she is. Arya suggests going to the Wall, but Sandor only laughed at that.

On the way to Riverrun they stop at the Inn at the Crossroads and encounter Tickler and Poliver who inform them that Riverrun is under siege. This news causes Sandor to ask if there are ships in Saltpans, but the Tickler tells Sandor he ought to return with them to Harrenhal to join his brother. The comment leads to a fight. Sandor is injured, but he and Arya manage to kill Tickler and Poliver. It's on the way to Saltpans that Sandor grows weak and Arya leaves him to die. She books passage on the Titan's Daughter using the coin Jaqen gave her, and she becomes "no one".

SHADRICH:

Brienne met Shadrich on the road. He was riding as hedge knight in service to a merchant named Hibald. Shadrich had served under Stannis at one time, but after the defeat on the Blackwater he had to pay a large ransom. We are to conclude this is how he ended up a hedge knight.

Shadrich was escorting Hibald to Duskendale when Brienne's party came upon them. Brienne informs Hibald that she is searching for her sister (Sansa). Brienne's companions offer to ride with Hibald who in turn checks with Shadrich to see if he's OK with them joining parties, to which Shadrich says, "The one is old, t'other fat, and the big one is a woman. Let them come." This could be another distorted echo of Howland's encounter with the three squires and the Knight of the Laughing Tree's encounter with the three knights.

Shadrich examines Brienne up and down and declares she's a strapping healthy wench, to which she replied, "a giant to some". Shadrich is all of 5 foot 2 inches, so his retort was that he is big enough where it counts. Shadrich explains his sigil this way:

Quote

"Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen. Some call me the Mad Mouse." He turned his shield to show her his sigil, a large white mouse with fierce red eyes, on bendy brown and blue. "The brown is for the lands I've roamed, the blue for the rivers that I've crossed. The mouse is me."

Brienne asked him if he was mad. He replies he's mad, because he runs to blood and battle. He also informs Brienne that they share a quest for Sansa Stark, tells her about Varys's ransom, and that he's only traveling with Hibald until Duskendale. He offers to share the ransom with Brienne if she wants to work together, and identifies "the fool" as Ser Dontos.

They stop at The Old Stone Bridge Inn. Brienne paid for Illifer and Creighton to share a room. We come across another echo of Dunk and Egg - their first meeting at an inn when Dunk thought Egg was a stableboy. At the inn where Shadrich and Brienne are staying, a small boy offers to take Brienne's horse and mistakes her for a "ser". This is interesting, because now I have to go back and see if there's a "Shadrich" type character in the Dunc and Egg tale - someone that would be an earlier echo of Howland. Hibald pays for a room to share with Shadrich, and the rest of his party slept in the stables.

At dinner they talked of Jaime and how he lost his hand, then Creighton brags that he fights just as well with either hand, to which Shadrich gets in an unnoticed dig when he replies, "Oh, I have no doubt of that."

Brienne goes up to bed early, and unwraps the hidden sword, Oathkeeper. Holding Oathkeeper, she knelt and said a silent prayer to the Crone. She heard Creighton talk about a shield with a blood-red chicken and a blade dripping gore. As soon as she was sure everyone was asleep, she made her escape. Later on she worries that Shadrich is catching up with her, but it turns out to be Podrick.

The next time Shadrich is on the page he's at the Gates of the Moon, newly hired as one of Petyr Baelish's knights, and introduced to Sansa.

PARALLELS:

Arya travels the Riverlands with Sandor as a hostage, wanting to go home or to the Wall. Shadrich is wandering the Riverlands searching for Sansa. Possible parallel for Howland: he may have also travelled the Riverlands, quite possibly alongside Lyanna.

There are dual Dunk and Egg echoes in the two accounts. Arya plays Egg to Sandor's Dunk, while the stable boy at the inn (where Shadrich also stayed) offers to take Brienne's horse and called her "ser".

There's an echo of Howland's treatment by the three squires and the Knight of the Laughing Tree's defeat of the three knights when Shadrich calls Brienne, Creighton, and Illifer, old, fat, and the big woman.

I may be misremembering, but wasn't there a scene where Sandor eats roast chicken at one of the inns or the farmer he robs? Or was that only on the mummer's version? In Shadrich's version, Brienne hears Creighton talking about a blood-red chicken.

Sandor kills Poliver and Arya kills a squire and the Tickler. At the inn where Shadrich and Brienne are staying, there is no fighting - only swapped stories of past fights, people being put to the sword, and Brienne's thoughts of heroes with famous swords.

Arya was on her way to the Vale of Arryn, but Sandor's mind is changed after an encounter in an inn. Shadrich was on his way to Duskindale, but after an encounter in an inn he shows up at the Gates of the Moon in the Vale of Arryn.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I'll post my standard response for Shadrich - that's he is who he says he is. People inflate his importance, because they subconsciously recognize a pattern. I've pointed out this pattern before, but it hasn't registered. His actions are an echo of two previous "turns of the wheel": Howland, and then Arya. 

Pretty Pig was the first to post a comparison of Howland's actions at the Harrenhal Tourney to Arya's Weasel Soup plan. I tagged on Shadrich as the third. You can see for yourself if you are so inclined to read the following:

KEY:  H = Howland , A = Arya, S = Shadrich

 

H:  The castle of Harrenhal is filled with people who have arrived for the tournement.

A:  The castle of Harrenhal is mostly empty; the people have departed for battle.

S:  Shadrich has become a symbol representing Harrenhal, because of the reference to a flying mouse, which could be a bat (Lothston, Harrenhal, etc)

 

H:  A guest from a noble northern house, Howland is persuaded to sit at the table with the other guests of high birth. He mingles with the members of other northern houses.

A:  A captive from a noble northern house, Arya is forced to serve the people at the table, and sleep and dine in the cellar. Arya cannot mingle with members of other northern houses, because they are imprisoned in the dungeons.

S:  Shadrich is with Brienne when they stopped for the knight at the Old Stone Bridge Inn. His meal and stay are paid for by his employer, a merchant, while Brienne pays for herself and the two penniless hedge knights Creighton and Illifer. I guess you could say they are all staying the night with a symbol of Harrenhal.

 

H:   At Harrenhal there is singing, dancing, and merriment, sounds of people having fun.

A:   At Harrenhal there is eerie silence and ghostly noises broken by sounds of general work.

S:   There were only six locals sitting at a table at the inn when Shadrich and Brienne’s party arrived. They hear the sounds of a roast spitting and crackling over a fire.

 

H:   Howland does not actively seek aid in getting revenge upon the three squires; instead, his friends the wolf maid and the pup offer to help him (their “father’s man”) challenge the squires by providing materials/assistance.

A:   Arya actively seeks help in fulfilling her plan (setting free her “father’s men”) by going to Hot Pie and Gendry for materials/assistance; they refuse her.

S: Ser Creighton, Ser Illifer the Penniless, and Brienne came upon a merchant who was protected by Ser Shadrich. The merchant produced a crossbow and called, “You will forgive me if I am suspicious, but the times are troubled, and I have only good Ser Shadrich to defend me.

 

H:  A young crannogman, small of stature and naïve to the ways of the big outside world.

A:  A young girl, small of stature and suspicious of the ways of the big outside world.

S: A wiry, fox-faced man, cocksure though no more than five foot two.

 

H:   With pledges of support of his new friends, Howland goes to the lake’s edge after the night’s festivities are over, casts his gaze to the Isle of Faces with its grove of weirwoods, and “said a prayer to the old gods of north and Neck .  .  .”

A:   Without pledges of support of her old friends, Arya goes to the godswood of Harrenhal in the dark of night and says a silent prayer in front of the wicked & twisted heart tree.

S:  No mention of a prayer for our Ser Shadrich. You could turn this around and state that Shadrich didn't pray, but Brienne prayed to the Crone.

 

H:  Howland asks the gods for a way to win upon those who wronged him, but he won’t shame himself and his people. He desires to be brave.

A:  Arya desires vengeance on those who wronged her, and to restore pride to herself and her shamed (captured) people. She desires to be brave.

S: Shadrich is unafraid of the three knights (Creighton, Illifer, and Brienne) who he refers to as “old”, “fat”, and “a woman”. He mocks Brienne by noting, “You’re a strapping healthy wench, I’d say.” After Brienne says, “A giant, compared to some.” He laughed. “I am big enough where it counts, wench.” He also explains that while a common mouse will run from blood and battle, a mad mouse seeks blood and battle. Brienne prayed for the Crone to light her way to Sansa.

 

H: King Aerys offers ransom for capture of the Knight of the Laughing Tree

A: Arya holds Jaqen’s life ransom until he helps her release the northern captives

S: Shadrich tells Brienne he’s looking for Sansa in order to claim a ransom - Vary’s “plump bag of gold”.

 

H: Lyanna ends up missing - Rhaegar blamed for her abduction.

A: Arya escaped from Kings Landing. No one blamed. She escaped by disguising herself as a boy.

S: Brienne has gone missing, but she's only hiding from Shadrich.

Huh. I think you might be onto something here if we were to combine the keys that we both created it might lead us further down this rabbit hole. 

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On 12/2/2019 at 3:09 AM, redriver said:

Yes.Ser Shadrich is Howland Reed!

Maybe..

 

On 12/2/2019 at 4:34 AM, redriver said:

Not mine, though it's one I like.The main points are in this link.

An argument should have some actual factual data in it, not pure allusion and vague manufactured connections.

Boil it down and it consists of:
 - he's crossed a lot of rivers - so has Howland Reed!
 - he's short, he's old, he maybe dies his hair - none of which is incompatible with Howland Reed!
 - a lot of his imagery can be twisted into third and fourth level connections... or more levels... to Harrenhal or Bloodraven, and hence to Howland Reed!

If the Mad Mouse was HR then I'd want some actual real connection. To have a trident (frogspear) or lizard-lion symbol for example, or grey and green colours. To tell a story about when he was at the great tournament of Harrenhal maybe. To indicate, even indirectly, a love of Ned Stark or House Stark, perhaps. Something.
Or even one or two more direct allusions, say to Greywater Watch or House Reed.

All I see is a six degrees of separation type connecting of the dots. You could connect those dots up to practically anything if you tried and were clever enough.
 

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Doesn’t hurt to try. We all tend to look at different things. I’m just still not positive that we have enough to narrow it down or not. So we want to look for parallels between ...

1. House Color

2. Sigil Representation.

3. House Name

4.  Character Name

5. Physical location

6. Significant Symbolism. 
 

Am I forgetting anything? 

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Oh wait.... We also need to add in

1.  Flower Type

2. Flower color  

3. ??? Material of some sort?

4. Eye Color (This might be why it was important that Renley’s eyes are known to be green and NOT blue. Why else would GRRM care enough to make a later correction to that be known unless there was some significance.

 

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I think that maybe we need to start out looking at the Wardens of each of the separate kingdoms in order to narrow down our options. So...

1. Stark is the North

2 Tully is the Riverlands

3. Martell for Dorne

4. Lannister for the West

5. Arryn for the East

6. Baratheon for the Stormlands

7. Targaryen for the crown

8.

9. 
 

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

 

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1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Doesn’t hurt to try. We all tend to look at different things. I’m just still not positive that we have enough to narrow it down or not. So we want to look for parallels between ...

1. House Color

2. Sigil Representation.

3. House Name

4.  Character Name

5. Physical location

6. Significant Symbolism. 
 

Am I forgetting anything? 

 

55 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Oh wait.... We also need to add in

1.  Flower Type

2. Flower color  

3. ??? Material of some sort?

4. Eye Color (This might be why it was important that Renley’s eyes are known to be green and NOT blue. Why else would GRRM care enough to make a later correction to that be known unless there was some significance.

 

We might be looking at different things. I don't think Shadrich is Howland, but I do think he's repeating events that happened to Howland and Arya. Since we know what happened to Arya and we know some of the things that happened to Shadrich we might be able to fill in some blanks with regards to Howland and maybe even Lyanna. Is that what you hope to do with your exercise?

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Hmmmm. I think we might be looking for a total of 16 houses as events have happened twice. That’s where we get the opposing 9 and 7 from, I think. 
 

Maybe we need to look at who was in attendance at each of the events that was prophesied and compare it to whomever was present at each of the actual event. It starts out with 9 possible options and then seven are taken away. It leaves two possible outcomes each time. 
 

 I think that this key might be in effect in some manner for each of the prophecies that are on page. 

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3 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

 

We might be looking at different things. I don't think Shadrich is Howland, but I do think he's repeating events that happened to Howland and Arya. Since we know what happened to Arya and we know some of the things that happened to Shadrich we might be able to fill in some blanks with regards to Howland and maybe even Lyanna. Is that what you hope to do with your exercise?

See what I said in the post above. I think that GRRM might be trying to give us a type of Rosetta Stone. To Clarify... A key that we can apply to come to the end result each time something is prophesied. Problem is that he only gives enough information to come up with and rule out 7 out of 9 options. I’m the end it’s always a choice between two final options. You just need to hope that you’ve chosen correctly. 

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21 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

See what I said in the post above. I think that GRRM might be trying to give us a type of Rosetta Stone. To Clarify... A key that we can apply to come to the end result each time something is prophesied. Problem is that he only gives enough information to come up with and rule out 7 out of 9 options. I’m the end it’s always a choice between two final options. You just need to hope that you’ve chosen correctly. 

I have a theory about the wheel of time that I call "Eating the Dragon's Tail", because it's a phrase that's mentioned in the books, and it helps me visualize the concept. I also take into consideration that the Wall is like a giant mirror. If you're facing the mirror, the reflection is actually backwards. Have you ever noticed when taking a selfie with your phone that any wording on your clothing read backwards in the pic? In mirrored Westeros, east is west and north is upside down. This is why Braavos mirrors the Riverlands, Dorne mirrors Casterly Rock's past, the Greyjoys of Iron Islands are mirroring the Blackfyre Pretender landings near Massey's Hook, and the north - which is upside down and under water - is described as a great northern sea. If you were to take an eastern House and compare it laterally to a western House, you'll discover the eastern people are finding themselves in situations very much like what happened to the western people about a generation ago. Thus the Martells are repeating what the Lannisters did prior to the Rebellion.

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Yeah. I think you can look at that as well. But when looking at the toj there are only two possibilities I see. Both are BBJ. But this time I think it’s Barbery Dustin and Brandon that are Jon’s parents. It was Dany that is the Child of Rhaegar and Ashara. Mellaria is Melisandra. And Lyanna is Septa Lemore. I still need to work through the others. It is kinda a big leap. But the evidence is there to support it all. 

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10 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yeah. I think you can look at that as well. But when looking at the toj there are only two possibilities I see. Both are BBJ. But this time I think it’s Barbery Dustin and Brandon that are Jon’s parents. It was Dany that is the Child of Rhaegar and Ashara. Mellaria is Melisandra. And Lyanna is Septa Lemore. I still need to work through the others. It is kinda a big leap. But the evidence is there to support it all. 

I was thinking that there used to be another Wall at Moat Cailin and the two walls reflected off of each other. If the north is upside down, I think Lyanna was actually found near the ruins of Whitewalls which is further south from Harrenhal on the shore of the God's Eye. The real tower of joy is Maegor's Holdfast. I think Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents and that Ashara is still alive and living at home in Starfall in disguise as Wylla, just as Sansa is now Alayne. I have no reason to doubt that Daenerys is Aerys and Rhaella's child, and that together with Rhaegar and Viserys they were the "child of three" in the Prince that was Promised prophecy. I don't really have any theories about Melisandre, but I think Septa Lenore is Rhaella Targaryen.

We've got seven or eight separate theories here. Just throwing them all out there for posterity!

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1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I was thinking that there used to be another Wall at Moat Cailin and the two walls reflected off of each other. If the north is upside down, I think Lyanna was actually found near the ruins of Whitewalls which is further south from Harrenhal on the shore of the God's Eye. The real tower of joy is Maegor's Holdfast. I think Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents and that Ashara is still alive and living at home in Starfall in disguise as Wylla, just as Sansa is now Alayne. I have no reason to doubt that Daenerys is Aerys and Rhaella's child, and that together with Rhaegar and Viserys they were the "child of three" in the Prince that was Promised prophecy. I don't really have any theories about Melisandre, but I think Septa Lenore is Rhaella Targaryen.

We've got seven or eight separate theories here. Just throwing them all out there for posterity!

I’m pretty sure that those are definitely all possibilities. It just depends on what it is about the story that catches our eye. There are always going to be nine options, but in the end only three are potentially correct. Ice wins. Fire wins. Or they become balanced. 

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11 hours ago, corbon said:

 

An argument should have some actual factual data in it, not pure allusion and vague manufactured connections.

Boil it down and it consists of:
 - he's crossed a lot of rivers - so has Howland Reed!
 - he's short, he's old, he maybe dies his hair - none of which is incompatible with Howland Reed!
 - a lot of his imagery can be twisted into third and fourth level connections... or more levels... to Harrenhal or Bloodraven, and hence to Howland Reed!

If the Mad Mouse was HR then I'd want some actual real connection. To have a trident (frogspear) or lizard-lion symbol for example, or grey and green colours. To tell a story about when he was at the great tournament of Harrenhal maybe. To indicate, even indirectly, a love of Ned Stark or House Stark, perhaps. Something.
Or even one or two more direct allusions, say to Greywater Watch or House Reed.

All I see is a six degrees of separation type connecting of the dots. You could connect those dots up to practically anything if you tried and were clever enough.
 

I'm sticking with die Fledermaus

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48 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'm sticking with die Fledermaus

A tenuous connection and a solitary one at that. The only line in this context is

"A mouse with wings would be a silly sight."

He's dissociating himself from bats here, as well as telling Sansa he wont enter the Winged Knight Tourney He's not a jouster and neither was Howland, then or since.

I'd be very nonplussed if Shadrich turned out to be a Whent.

 

 

 

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