Heresy 228 and one over the eight

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, Melifeather said:

That’s an interesting idea. Do you have any examples?

It strikes me that Aerys was very suspicious of Rhaegar plotting behind his back and so chose to attend the tourney at Harrenhal.  Is it possible that he ordered Rhaegar to give the crown of roses to Lyanna, in order to discredit Rhaegar and throw a spanner into whatever alliances were being formed?  

[Lady Dyanna]

40 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Or perhaps to kill Jon under certain conditions.

That is definitely a possibility. It would definitely be a difficult choice for Jon to make. The thing I can’t get past with that idea is that it was something that almost appeared to be fixable should Ned be able to get a letter to Jon before he dies. That is the main thing he asks of Varys. To find a way to convey a message to him. If he wanted to kill Jon this wouldn’t be the way that I would think he would go about it. Mainly because a letter doesn’t have those capabilities. 

[LynnS]

3 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

That is definitely a possibility. It would definitely be a difficult choice for Jon to make. The thing I can’t get past with that idea is that it was something that almost appeared to be fixable should Ned be able to get a letter to Jon before he dies. That is the main thing he asks of Varys. To find a way to convey a message to him. If he wanted to kill Jon this wouldn’t be the way that I would think he would go about it. Mainly because a letter doesn’t have those capabilities. 

He should have told Jon about his mother and anything else she said pertaining to Jon.  Perhaps so he could protect himself.  Instead, Ned's ghost has to tell Bran.  LOL

[Lady Dyanna]

26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Har! 

When Ned slept he had dark and disturbing dreams, but when Bran told Luwin that he dreamed he spoke to his father in the crypts, he only reported that, "He was sad." When Luwin asked him why, Bran said, "It was something to do about Jon, I think." Being "sad" is very different than "dark and disturbing". Again, I think interpretation is influenced by personal beliefs and context, and since I think Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents, I think Ned is regretting not telling Jon who his mother was before he left for Kings Landing. Ned thought that there would be time, but he's beginning to realize that he may never see the rest of his family again.

IMO there would be no reason for Ned to hide the identity of Jon's mother from his own family if she were Lyanna. I have a hard time believing anyone in his immediate family would let that secret slip. But if Jon's mother were Ashara and Ned was protecting her honor, it would be difficult to reveal that without exposing her shame and explaining where she is now. I guess he could repeat the lie that she jumped from the Palestone Tower, but if Ned decided to reveal Ashara as Jon's mother, I think he'd tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Ok. I see what you are saying. So let’s try to take our individual perspectives out of the equation and see what is left. The only thing that I see as being conclusively proven is that Ned feels that getting a message to Jon would help. If we only look at things that can be accomplished with the sharing of information I think that we can successfully narrow the options. I’m pretty sure that there’s no way for Ned to kill Jon directly with communication, so I think that might be an option that we can rule out. 

[Melifeather]

1 minute ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Ok. I see what you are saying. So let’s try to take our individual perspectives out of the equation and see what is left. T

I think that might be an impossible task! Our brains are constantly evaluating and comparing. We are helplessly biased!

[Lady Dyanna]

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats.

Ok. So you proved my logic wrong with that quote. But when we look farther into the passage we do see the above. The reaction to the flowers being made of sapphires seems remarkably similar to the reaction of the crowd at the ToHH. Was there something about the action of crowning Lyanna that would have produced the same reaction as Loras’s expensive armor?  What was that laurel made from? Or alternatively what can be linked from both occurrences that might cause the reaction of a stunned crowd. 

[Lady Dyanna]

19 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It strikes me that Aerys was very suspicious of Rhaegar plotting behind his back and so chose to attend the tourney at Harrenhal.  Is it possible that he ordered Rhaegar to give the crown of roses to Lyanna, in order to discredit Rhaegar and throw a spanner into whatever alliances were being formed?  

I don’t see anything that contradicts the idea, but I haven’t put much thought into it. But if we want to see how Aerys reacts to someone that he is mistrustful of and trying to discredit we might get some clues by looking at Tywin Lannister. He was the first person that Aerys expressed paranoia over. At least according to the opinions offered in story. 

[Lady Dyanna]

10 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I think that might be an impossible task! Our brains are constantly evaluating and comparing. We are helplessly biased!

It most certainly is possible, it just takes focus. It’s no different than error checking your work for school. When you come up with a possible solution just stop to think if something else contradicts it. And if you can’t remember or are unsure than ask for help from others to troubleshoot your idea. Isn’t that the whole idea behind why we come to somewhere like a forum? To attempt to seek others opinions in order to account for our own individual bias or lack of available information either real or perceived that either contradicts or confirms the idea? 

[Lady Dyanna]

21 hours ago, corbon said:

There's no Night King just an old LC who went a bit rogue (perhaps!) and got some super-bad press afterwards by his victorious enemies.

There may not be a Night’s King per se. I’m pretty sure that there’s no evidence to point directly to that idea. But unless I’ve completely lost my mind, entirely possible, With his own eyes Wil is witness to both white walkers and wights, the battle between several ww and another character, the aftermath of that battle and the conversion of a dead Waymar Royce into a wight. And that’s just the prologue of the first book. 

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Oh!  I didn't see that coming.  LOL.  I just can't get my head around Rhaegar being that cruel and malicious.  To my mind he already thinks he's produced the prince who is promised. 

Ah well, that's the point. A common theme that runs all the way through the book is that of unintended consequences. I don't think we're talking about deliberate cruelty.

 

[Lady Dyanna]

21 hours ago, corbon said:

Heh, thanks, but no doubt I'll decline politely again. I'm a lieutenant, not a captain. Not that its about being in charge, but I do better following other thoughts than starting originals of my own. I don;t actually recall ever starting any thread, though its possible. 

Bullshit on original threads and discussion . As for the rest you are whatever it is you choose to be. I suck at making anyone ever understand what I’m trying to say, but that doesn’t mean that I stop trying. 

[Black Crow]

3 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There may not be a Night’s King per se. I’m pretty sure that there’s no evidence to point directly to that idea. But unless I’ve completely lost my mind, entirely possible, With his own eyes Wil is witness to both white walkers and wights, the battle between several ww and another character, the aftermath of that battle and the conversion of a dead Waymar Royce into a wight. And that’s just the prologue of the first book. 

I don't think that there is a Night's King and certainly not as presented by the Mummers Version, but I think that the purpose of the story is to show that the Starks can go bad,

[Melifeather]

25 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Ok. So you proved my logic wrong with that quote. But when we look farther into the passage we do see the above. The reaction to the flowers being made of sapphires seems remarkably similar to the reaction of the crowd at the ToHH. Was there something about the action of crowning Lyanna that would have produced the same reaction as Loras’s expensive armor?  What was that laurel made from? Or alternatively what can be linked from both occurrences that might cause the reaction of a stunned crowd. 

The blue sapphires bring to mind two or three things: first, the blue rose laurel given to Lyanna and the shock of the crowd when Rhaegar passed by his wife. Two, the blue sapphires that Symeon Star-Eyes placed in his empty eye sockets which also, three, remind us of the blue flickering light in the eyes of wights and white walkers. The latter two things are just as shocking to anyone who saw.

13 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

It most certainly is possible, it just takes focus. It’s no different than error checking your work for school. When you come up with a possible solution just stop to think if something else contradicts it. And if you can’t remember or are unsure than ask for help from others to troubleshoot your idea. Isn’t that the whole idea behind why we come to somewhere like a forum? To attempt to seek others opinions in order to account for our own individual bias or lack of available information either real or perceived that either contradicts or confirms the idea? 

That’s assuming that you’re dealing with a subject with a product that everybody agrees with such as mathematics or science, but even history is debatable since it’s written by the victors.

[Lady Dyanna]

21 hours ago, corbon said:

9.9% boring compared to the ideas usually coming out here. People are people, and do people stuff. There much much less deep plotting, and very little god-like overwatch or action by hidden powers in my ASoIaF. Just about the only recognisable act by the Old Gods is the extremely passive one of triggering the arrival of the direwolf pups.

Only in your own mind. How would any of the rest of us ever know?  If you don’t share ideas, no matter how mundane or far fetched they are it takes away the opportunity from others to consider a different perspective. And to be perfectly honest I don’t see any evidence that the old gods had anything to do with those dire wolf pups. I see a rarely seen animal that just so happened to manage to give birth and was killed by an antler stuck in its neck. Where does that connect to the old gods. For all we know the Starks are even crazier than the Targaryens. 

[Lady Dyanna]

48 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He should have told Jon about his mother and anything else she said pertaining to Jon.  Perhaps so he could protect himself.  Instead, Ned's ghost has to tell Bran.  LOL

Yeah, well... Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda. He didn’t and this is where we are now. Though maybe if Ned had actually lived he could have learned a lesson from it and corrected his behavior. 

[Lady Dyanna]

14 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Ah well, that's the point. A common theme that runs all the way through the book is that of unintended consequences. I don't think we're talking about deliberate cruelty.

No. But cruelty is still cruelty whether deliberate or not. Either way the recipient will be impacted and still experience it in the same manner. It seems that maybe if the characters in this series took a bit more time to explore the impact of their actions BEFORE acting rather than in hindsight things might just be a bit better. If they actually considered the consequences of their actions they might not be so quick as to follow through with them. With no extenuating circumstances it seems to me that when a person acts cruelly it’s not important to them or a priority of theirs to protect that person from cruelty. 

[Lady Dyanna]

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I don't think that there is a Night's King and certainly not as presented by the Mummers Version, but I think that the purpose of the story is to show that the Starks can go bad,

Ok. I can get behind that as a running theme of the series. But again, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that we have observed both ww and wights from the first hand perspective of our characters. They don’t seem like typical Starks to me. 

[Lady Dyanna]

19 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The blue sapphires bring to mind two or three things: first, the blue rose laurel given to Lyanna and the shock of the crowd when Rhaegar passed by his wife. Two, the blue sapphires that Symeon Star-Eyes placed in his empty eye sockets which also, three, remind us of the blue flickering light in the eyes of wights and white walkers. The latter two things are just as shocking to anyone who saw.

Again there’s another assumption here. We still have no clue WHY the crowd was shocked. Just that they were. We are trying to first uncover the options as to what would elicit that shocked response. No on screen character ever provided a rationale for that shock as far as I can recall. Couldn’t it also be because of the material that the crown itself is made from that caused that reaction? How do we know that Lyanna’s crown was, in fact, NOT made of a some precious gem or material. 

[Lady Dyanna]

28 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

That’s assuming that you’re dealing with a subject with a product that everybody agrees with such as mathematics or science, but even history is debatable since it’s written by the victors.

Its veracity might be in doubt, but until you can prove otherwise then that is the information and rationale that is made available to the reader and should not be discounted. You can’t choose to eliminate evidence without a valid reason. How do you know for sure that the victor’s perspective is the wrong one? You aren’t even sure who the victor is in this case. 

[Lady Dyanna]

29 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Two, the blue sapphires that Symeon Star-Eyes placed in his empty eye sockets which also, three, remind us of the blue flickering light in the eyes of wights and white walkers. The latter two things are just as shocking to anyone who saw.

To be clear I do agree with you on your other points. Especially as both are described as being sapphires.