Jump to content

Heresy 228 and one over the eight


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

 I do think there is a parallel in play to Harrenhal, and one of the winning jouster's we hear of (either the Knight of the Laughing Tree or Prince Rhaegar) used trickery in some way to win their jousts. Probably, they both used trickery to beat an opponent that otherwise would have won.

Missed this bit.
Have you followed the evidence of Rhaegar's skill in jousting?
You do know that he was 1-1 with both Barristan the Bold and Ser Arthur Dayne before this tourney? And no one else had beaten him? But both of them had, so its not like they automatically gave in to him.
You know one of the guys Rhaegar beat at Harrenhal was Brandon Stark? The Brandon who also loved to Ride and is placed by Barbrey Dustin as half-centaur like Lyanna. The Brandon that was wild, entitled, and furious with Rhaegar?

You really think Rhaegar had to use a trick to win? That he didn't have the skill? That Brandon lost to him on purpose?

 

Also, while I was checking quotes I noticed this.

Quote

Prince Rhaegar emerged as the ultimate victor at the end of the competition. The crown prince, who did not normally compete in tourneys, surprised all by donning his armor and defeating every foe he faced, including four knights of the Kingsguard. In the final tilt, he unhorsed Ser Barristan Selmy, generally regarded as the finest lance in all the Seven Kingdoms, to win the champion's laurels.

It can't be a surprise that he did well, given his record on the few occasions he did compete, so the surprise must be that he entered at all.

This is negative evidence (not disproof) for any theory that has "the Plan" being for Rhaegar to win the tourney from the outset. He was not generally expected to enter.
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, corbon said:

So only green dream contain allegories?

Both the blue rose petals (or what-ever coloured rose petals across a blue sky, depending on how its read) and the blood streaks, are part of Ned's experiential memories. 
The tide rising to engulf Winterfell is not part of Jojen's experiential memories.

Ned did note that it was an "old" dream. It is quite possible that he's had this dream or parts of it well before the Rebellion. Jojen didn't understand his green dreams until after they came true. He just said "they don't lie". He told Bran the dream, but didn't know what it meant. It's not until after Theon took Winterfell that the reader understood the elements of the green dream. Bran and Jojen didn't sit down to have a pow wow later to re-examine the dream and compare it to what just happened, but maybe Ned had a green dream, saw it fulfilled, and in hind site made the connection and both green dream and real memories are jumbled together in the fever dream.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

Ned did note that it was an "old" dream. It is quite possible that he's had this dream or parts of it well before the Rebellion. Jojen didn't understand his green dreams until after they came true. He just said "they don't lie". He told Bran the dream, but didn't know what it meant. It's not until after Theon took Winterfell that the reader understood the elements of the green dream. Bran and Jojen didn't sit down to have a pow wow later to re-examine the dream and compare it to what just happened,

Agreed

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

but maybe Ned had a green dream, saw it fulfilled, and in hind site made the connection and both green dream and real memories are jumbled together in the fever dream.

So now there's another dream that is unreferenced in the books?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

Missed this bit.
Have you followed the evidence of Rhaegar's skill in jousting?
You do know that he was 1-1 with both Barristan the Bold and Ser Arthur Dayne before this tourney? And no one else had beaten him? Bo=ut both of them had, so its not like they automatically gave in to him.
You know one of the guys Rhaegar beat at Harrenhal was Brandon Stark? The Brandon who also loved to Ride and is placed by Barbrey Dustin as half-centaur like Lyanna. The Brandon that was wild, entitled, and furious with Rhaegar?

You really think Rhaegar had to use a trick to win? That he didn't have the skill? That Brandon lost to him on purpose?

 

Also, while I was checking quotes I noticed this.

It can't be a surprise that he did well, given his record on the few occasions he did compete, so the surprise must be that he entered at all.

This is negative evidence (not disproof) for any theory that has "the Plan" being for Rhaegar to win the tourney from the outset. He was not generally expected to enter.
 

I don't think anyone dared unseat him, and Brandon wasn't furious with Rhaegar until after his sister went missing. 

I think the situation was similar to when Robert wanted to fight in the melee at the Hand's Tourney:

Quote

 

..."Your sister would never have shamed me like that."

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert," Ned told him. "You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee."

"You too?" The king frowned. "You are a sour man, Stark. Too long in the north, all the juices have frozen inside you. Well, mine are still running." He slapped his chest to prove it.

"You are the king," Ned reminded him.

"I sit on the damn iron seat when I must. Does that mean I don't have the same hungers as other men? A bit of wine now and again, a girl squealing in bed, the feel of a horse between my legs? Seven hells, Ned, I want to hit someone."

Ser Barristan Selmy spoke up. "Your Grace," he said, "it is not seemly that the king should ride into the melee. It would not be a fair contest. Who would dare strike you?"

Robert seemed honestly taken aback. "Why, all of them, damn it. If they can. And the last man left standing..."

"...will be you," Ned finished. He saw at once that Selmy had hit the mark. The dangers of the melee were only a savor to Robert, but this touched on his pride. "Ser Barristan is right. There's not a man in the Seven Kingdoms who would dare risk your displeasure by hurting you."

The king rose to his feet, his face flushed. "Are you telling me those prancing cravens will let me win?"

"For a certainty," Ned said, and Der Barristan Selmy bowed his head in silent accord.

 

 

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

So now there's another dream that is unreferenced in the books?

No. I'm saying the fever dream was a jumble of things, among them some real memories, some elements that were symbolic, but also included the green dream from a long time ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I don't think anyone dared unseat him,

They had before. He'd lost before in significant public tourneys to both Arthur Dayne and Barristan the Bold. 

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

and Brandon wasn't furious with Rhaegar until after his sister went missing. 

Sure. But I still can't see Brandon Stark, the wild wolf, rolling belly up for the pretty-boy southron price.

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

I think the situation was similar to when Robert wanted to fight in the melee at the Hand's Tourney:

I think there is a significant difference in Robert's case. 
Robert is now a fat old drunkard. I think he would have had the shit kicked out of him, which is one of the reasons Cersei set him up for it - she didn't think he'd win or she wouldn't have manipulated him into entering.
I think Ned's explanation is just a way to get Robert not to fight - from Robert's point of view, such an idea removes the fun out of it. Selmy goes along because it protects his King (and his king's ego).

1 minute ago, Melifeather said:

No. I'm saying the fever dream was a jumble of things, among them some real memories, some elements that were symbolic, but also included the green dream from a long time ago.

And what made it a green dream long ago?
Its based on his memories remember. In the dream as it was in life. Unlike Jojen's green dreams.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, St Daga said:

The playhouse that Mercy acts at is called the Gate, and it is built on ground that was sinking and cheap, which is why Izembaro purchased it.

So much symbolism packed into one sentence! As I've suggested, I'm leaning towards the Gate as being Whitewalls. If you've read the Dunk and Egg novellas you might recall that Bloodraven had Whitewalls destroyed.

Quote

 

The Mystery Knight

"Treason is no less vile because the traitor proves a craven," Lord Rivers was saying. "I have heard your bleatings, Lord Ambrose, and I believe one word in ten. On that account I will allow you to retain a tenth part of your fortune. You may keep your wife as well. I wish you joy of her."

"And Whitewalls?" asked Butterwell with quavering voice.

"Forfeit to the Iron Throne. I mean to pull it down stone by stone and sow the ground that it stands upon with salt. In twenty years, no one will remember it existed. Old fools and young malcontents still make pilgrimages to the Redgrass Field to plant flowers on the spot where Daemon Blackfyre fell. I will not suffer Whitewalls to become another monument to the Black Dragon." He waved a pale hand. "Now scurry away, roach."

 

It's notable that the tourney there was a wedding tourney - this seems to echo the Sailor's Wife and the nearness of the Gate to the Ship, which I still think is Harrenhal. The Whitewall wedding tourney was a pretense. Many of the lords and knights shared a desire to place a Blackfyre on the throne. Aerys II suspected that the Harrenhal tourney was also a pretense for lords and knights whom desired to place Rhaegar on the throne.

Quote

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aerys I

Lord Gormon Peake was at the center of an attempt to bring about a new uprising. For his role in the First Blackfyre Rebellion, Peake had been stripped of two of the three castles his house had held for centuries. After the drought and the Great Spring Sickness, Lord Gormon convinced Daemon Blackfyre's eldest surviving son, Daemon the Younger, to cross the narrow sea and make a play for the throne.

The conspiracy came to a head in 211 AC at the wedding tourney at Whitewalls, the great seat that Lord Butterwell had raised near the Gods Eye. This was the same Butterwell who had once been Daeron's Hand, until the king had dismissed him in favor of Lord Hayford because of his suspicious failure to act successfully against Daemon Blackfyre in the early days of his rebellion. At Whitewalls, under pretense of celebrating Lord Butterwell's marriage and competing in the tournament, many lords and knights had gathered, all of whom shared a desire to place a Blackfyre on the throne.

 

The Gate was raised upon the flooded foundation of a burned down warehouse. The land continues to sink, so Izembaro got the real estate for cheap. The place was in ruins - just as Whitewalls is now a ruin. Now, if we could just work out who Izembaro is echoing...and we haven't even gotten to the rape play yet! AND I have thoughts about the Butcher's Boy to share! Too much to go over! LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, corbon said:

They had before. He'd lost before in significant public tourneys to both Arthur Dayne and Barristan the Bold. 

Sure. But I still can't see Brandon Stark, the wild wolf, rolling belly up for the pretty-boy southron price.

I think there is a significant difference in Robert's case. 
Robert is now a fat old drunkard. I think he would have had the shit kicked out of him, which is one of the reasons Cersei set him up for it - she didn't think he'd win or she wouldn't have manipulated him into entering.
I think Ned's explanation is just a way to get Robert not to fight - from Robert's point of view, such an idea removes the fun out of it. Selmy goes along because it protects his King (and his king's ego).

And what made it a green dream long ago?
Its based on his memories remember. In the dream as it was in life. Unlike Jojen's green dreams.

These are just your opinions. I guess we disagree.

To me symbolism, metaphors, and allegories are additional information, the same as or in some cases, more telling than visual and audio cues. I literally just saw a tv preview of Better Call Saul where the visual and audio cues provided all the information needed to get an idea for what’s about to happen. As the soundtrack sings about "Murder on my mind," Saul notes a gun between the front seats and that the push buttons on the locks are gone. 
 

if you rely strictly on the text, you’re missing out on all the additional information being provided.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, corbon said:

Have you followed the evidence of Rhaegar's skill in jousting?
You do know that he was 1-1 with both Barristan the Bold and Ser Arthur Dayne before this tourney? And no one else had beaten him? But both of them had, so its not like they automatically gave in to him.
You know one of the guys Rhaegar beat at Harrenhal was Brandon Stark? The Brandon who also loved to Ride and is placed by Barbrey Dustin as half-centaur like Lyanna. The Brandon that was wild, entitled, and furious with Rhaegar?

You really think Rhaegar had to use a trick to win? That he didn't have the skill? That Brandon lost to him on purpose?

Following the evidence of Rhaegar's skill as a jouster? Well, he won a tournament, but so did Jorah Mormont... and then Jorah never won another thing jousting again. Rhaegar didn't enter many tournaments I believe (I only know of three), and I would imagine that when he did, people would not want to hurt him, so might have avoided any hit's against him. We are given the idea that this can happen several times. First of all, with Robert's wishing to participate in the melee at the Hand's Tourney and Ned telling him no one would dare harm him. We have some evidence of this in The Hedge Knight when no dangerous opponents were allowed to face Valarr Targaryen. We see hints of this again in the Mystery Knight, when John the Fiddler is allowed to win the majority of his jousts by facing opponents who were allowing him to win.

What I think GRRM is doing is telling us the story in echoes from the past, and we have an echo with information given during the Hands Tourney reaching back to the Tourney at Harrenhal. You are more than welcome to think that Rhaegar was the best jouster in the world, but I do not and I actually see little evidence that he was that good, again using Jorah Mormont as an example. I personally think that Rhaegar used something besides his jousting skills to win, based on some of the other tournaments that GRRM has shown us in his own published canon.

And yes, I know that Brandon Stark jousted in this tournament. I am not sure if you are trying to be condescending or you simply think that no one knows the text as well as you do and you think you are being helpful? I know Brandon jousted. We actually don't know that Brandon was a good jouster, in spite of his fine riding skills. And are you saying that since Brandon was a fine rider, as some sort of indicator of his jousting skills BUT he was still beaten by Rhaegar, which I guess could mean that riding skills are not "everything" when it comes to winning at the joust. And I have no idea if Brandon lost to Rhaegar on purpose, we have no information with which to make that deduction.

BTW, I never claimed that Brandon lost to Rhaegar on purpose, so this is something you are claiming I said, when I did not. Please don't do that. 

20 hours ago, corbon said:

It can't be a surprise that he did well, given his record on the few occasions he did compete, so the surprise must be that he entered at all.

This is negative evidence (not disproof) for any theory that has "the Plan" being for Rhaegar to win the tourney from the outset. He was not generally expected to enter.

I think you are putting words in my mouth and that is unfair. All I said was that I though Rhaegar and the KotLT won by some sort of trickery. Here you are adding information that I claim that this was Rhaegar's goal from the onset. I never said that, and as a matter of fact, I would guess that Rhaegar's need to win was something spontaneous after the tournament started other than when he first arrived. I don't think I outline "a plan" at all.

20 hours ago, corbon said:
Quote

To say that Loras "knew horses and rode well" is quite a simplification and denies the fact that Loras knowingly used trickery to attempt to beat the Mountain. 

It does not deny it, it absorbs it, includes it, expands on it. Loras didn't just go 'ha, clever trick, I win". He still had to actually ride the joust and defeat Gregor.
 The way Loras beat Gregor was out-horsemanning him. He was able to do that because he used a trick to lower Gregor's horsemanship, and Gregor ended up fighting his horse rather than teaming with it. Note how Gregor finished off the fight with his horse after he lost...

Let's discuss Loras "out-horsemanning" Gregor by use of a mare in heat as evidence of his greater "horsemanning", which is something I completely disagree with. I have been around horses and horse competitions for a great part of my life, and it is never considered "greater horsemanship" to bring a mare in heat into the midst of a competition, especially one that stallions would be competing in. Many people who compete with mares will actually use estrous suppression medications to keep mares from cycling during competition because of the problems they can cause.

And if you want to discuss who is the better rider between Loras and Gregor, I would have to say Gregor was, because he managed to control a screaming, pawing at the ground, shaking his head and rearing animal, and Gregor still managed to keep his seat and compete, although he was surely distracted by his stallion's behavior. And, if Gregor is the better rider, and still managed to lose the joust, this is another example of a better horseman not being the victor of a joust just because they are a great horseman.

What does Gregor killing his horse have to do with "finishing a fight". If Gregor had been allowed to finish his fight, Loras would be dead. If Gregor wasn't an asshat, his horse would still be alive!

20 hours ago, corbon said:

And just to top it off for you... from released WoW chapters:

  Reveal hidden contents

And since a princess must have some women to attend her, her company also included pretty Jayne Ladybright and wild Elia Sand, a maid of ten-and-four.
...
Come break of day, they were off again. 
Elia Sand led the way, her black braid flying behind her as she raced across the dry, cracked plains and up into the hills. The girl was mad for horses, which might be why she often smelled like one, to the despair of her mother. Sometimes Arianne felt sorry for Ellaria. Four girls, and every one of them her father's daughter.
...

"Are you half horse, child?" Valena asked, laughing, in the yard. "Princess, did you bring a stable girl?"
"I'm Elia," the girl announced. "Lady Lance."
Whoever hung that name on her has much to answer for. Like as not it had been Prince Oberyn, though, and the Red Viper had never answered to anyone but himself.
...
"The girl jouster," Valena said. "Yes, I've heard of you. Since you were the first to the yard, you've won the honor of watering and bridling the horses."
"And after that find the bath house," said Princess Arianne. Elia was chalk and dust from heels to hair.
...
Jayne Ladybright grew greensick and spent most of the voyage spewing, which Elia Sand seemed to find hilarious. "Someone needs to spank that child," Joss Hood was heard to say... but Elia was amongst those who heard him say it.
"I am almost a woman grown, ser," she responded haughtily. "I'll let you spank me, though... but first you'll need to tilt with me, and knock me off my horse."

Hmm, fancy that.

  Reveal hidden contents

A 14 year old girl, tomboyish and wilful, described as half a horse and mad for horses, who is known (already) for jousting.

 

Well, Elia Sand is well known for her jousting, enough to have earned the nickname Lady Lance. Has Lyanna Stark been called Lady Lance or "the female jouster" in the canon and I missed it. And trust me, I am not saying a woman can't do this, I am saying it takes any person, man or women, many hours of practice to be proficient. And so far we haven't seen Elia Sand in any competition to see how she would fare. 

As to what the app says about Lyanna that cannot be found in the published novels, it has little interest to me, until it's in a published novel. You can use this information as you like, but I chose not too. And I am not sure that any of the Winds of Winter released chapters are considered canon, either, although I do find them quite interesting. I always try to keep in mind that GRRM could edit the shit out of them and change very important details. Or take chapters out completely! 

20 hours ago, corbon said:

GRRM seems to disagree with you.

Well, you seem to disagree with me, and that's totally fine, but how does this show that GRRM disagree's with my statement? If you are looking for a fight, and it kind of seems like you are, then let's disengage from this now. I come here to enjoy the books, experience things I may have missed or seen differently,  and the analysis of other fans, not to fight with people. Have a nice day!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, Melifeather said:
5 hours ago, St Daga said:

The playhouse that Mercy acts at is called the Gate, and it is built on ground that was sinking and cheap, which is why Izembaro purchased it.

So much symbolism packed into one sentence! As I've suggested, I'm leaning towards the Gate as being Whitewalls. If you've read the Dunk and Egg novellas you might recall that Bloodraven had Whitewalls destroyed.

Actually, this could fit Whitewalls quite well, the castle razed, the land destroyed. Do we know if anything was ever rebuilt at Whitewalls? I guess the location is unknown, which is how Bloodraven wanted it to be. The Gate is built on the previous foundation of the warehouse that had burned down. That might be a hint at fire/Targaryen's destroying Whitewalls.

Another thing that stood out to me this time through the Mercy chapter, was the nod to the Reyaan's, a noble family of Braavos, key-holders, who are incredibly fat, father and son's both. And this makes me think of Wyman Manderly and his sons Wendel and Wylis. Bessaro Reyaan is so fat he needed a special chair made for him and at the Harvest feast at Winterfell, Wyman Manderly sits in a special made chair because a regular chair won't fit him. 

I honestly try to not read to much into those chapters, since I think they are bound to change, and are certainly not officially published yet. But I just reread Mercy and the Foresaken chapter for something I was doing on LH and they are fresh in my mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Actually, this could fit Whitewalls quite well, the castle razed, the land destroyed. Do we know if anything was ever rebuilt at Whitewalls? I guess the location is unknown, which is how Bloodraven wanted it to be. The Gate is built on the previous foundation of the warehouse that had burned down. That might be a hint at fire/Targaryen's destroying Whitewalls.

Another thing that stood out to me this time through the Mercy chapter, was the nod to the Reyaan's, a noble family of Braavos, key-holders, who are incredibly fat, father and son's both. And this makes me think of Wyman Manderly and his sons Wendel and Wylis. Bessaro Reyaan is so fat he needed a special chair made for him and at the Harvest feast at Winterfell, Wyman Manderly sits in a special made chair because a regular chair won't fit him. 

I honestly try to not read to much into those chapters, since I think they are bound to change, and are certainly not officially published yet. But I just reread Mercy and the Foresaken chapter for something I was doing on LH and they are fresh in my mind.

Yes, that was my thought as well. Who else but Wyman is described that way? The designation of the Reyaan being “key-holders” seems a tantalizing clue too! And might play into Pretty Pig’s idea that the Manderly’s will double-cross the Starks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Following the evidence of Rhaegar's skill as a jouster? Well, he won a tournament, but so did Jorah Mormont... and then Jorah never won another thing jousting again. Rhaegar didn't enter many tournaments I believe (I only know of three), and I would imagine that when he did, people would not want to hurt him, so might have avoided any hit's against him.

And yet, in both the other tourneys, people did beat him. Only the very best, most skilled people, but that kinda proves that he didn't just have a free pass because he was crown prince.
A lot of people make this claim - "Rhaegar probably only won because people let him". But the facts we have don't back that up. First, he didn't usually win tournaments. This is the only actual one we know of he won. Someone beat him every other time, even though he beat nearly everybody - including the people who beat him other times. The people most likely to give him a pass (KG) were the people who actually beat him. Second, you've got people who didn't like him and didn't support him being beaten by him. People like Brandon. If there was no other data, I could accept Brandon rolling over, as part of a wider plan. Heck, that could explain his fury, if he rolled over and then Rhaegar changed the plan, 'betraying' him and worse, using his own 'sacrifice' to do so. I'd think it was weak, given Brandon's characterisation, but acceptable. But there is other data that belies the 'roll over' theories.
Third, you've got Rhaegar's consistent characterisation as good at whatever he tried, and warrior skills in particular. Not only do you have his tourney record, you have 

Quote

"Swords win battles," Ser Jorah said bluntly. "And Prince Rhaegar knew how to use one."

and

Quote
"He knows his duties, and there's no better lance—"
"You were better, before you lost your hand. Ser Barristan, when he was young. Arthur Dayne was better, and Prince Rhaegar was a match for even him. Do not prate at me about how fierce the Flower is. He's just a boy."

Cersei's not exactly the perfect judge, but Jaime doesn't contradict her. 

Fourth, you have the fact that Rhaegar was actually good enough a warrior (not just jouster) to wound the fearsome and nigh unbeatable Robert at the Trident one on one - badly enough so that Robert could not conduct the pursuit. Robert beat him in the end, but that can happen to any man, as Barristan explained as a generality.

This idea floats around that Rhaegar wasn't very good and won by foul means. But it doesn't stand up to the evidence. I'm all in favour of ideas, so long as they actually fit the evidence once they are examined.
 

Quote

We are given the idea that this can happen several times. First of all, with Robert's wishing to participate in the melee at the Hand's Tourney and Ned telling him no one would dare harm him. We have some evidence of this in The Hedge Knight when no dangerous opponents were allowed to face Valarr Targaryen. We see hints of this again in the Mystery Knight, when John the Fiddler is allowed to win the majority of his jousts by facing opponents who were allowing him to win.

Agreed. This idea is a possibility. But for it to apply to Rhaegar it has to fit to the facts.
Fact 1. Both Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy beat Rhaegar at times. Therefore there is no 'untouchability' to Rhaegar in general.

Fact 2. Rhaegar faced the very best. Two Lannisters, twelve other top Westerlings - "the flower of the west", Oberyn Martell, Simon Toyne, Jason Mallister, Stefon Baratheon, Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, Arthur Dayne, Barristan Selmy. Therefore this is no "Valarr" case.

Fact 3. John the Fiddler still loses. Eventually the plotting and meddling failed and Daemon lost ignominiously to a boy who had already been beaten and tortured. No such circumstances apply to Rhaegar. He was never 'found out', or humilitaed, never beaten but by the very best. When he lost, the one we know details of it was phenomenally close, on the 13th lance, to Arthur Dayne.

Quote

What I think GRRM is doing is telling us the story in echoes from the past, and we have an echo with information given during the Hands Tourney reaching back to the Tourney at Harrenhal. You are more than welcome to think that Rhaegar was the best jouster in the world, but I do not and I actually see little evidence that he was that good, again using Jorah Mormont as an example. I personally think that Rhaegar used something besides his jousting skills to win, based on some of the other tournaments that GRRM has shown us in his own published canon.

So the opinion of Barristan Selmy is not evidence. The opinion of Cersei, unargued by Jaime, is not evidence. Jorah's opinion is not evidence. The results are not evidence. The quality of the men he beat is not evidence.  Breaking 12 lances with Arthur Dayne and losing on the thirteenth is not evidence. Wounding Robert is not evidence.

What exactly would be evidence?

This is not aimed at you, StDaga. But what it feels like is that only allegory, metaphor, symbolism and the like counts as evidence here. Anything else is irrelevant. And anyone who brings it any actual data has negative intentions if the data doesn't match up with peoples ideas.
 

Quote

And yes, I know that Brandon Stark jousted in this tournament. I am not sure if you are trying to be condescending or you simply think that no one knows the text as well as you do and you think you are being helpful?

Neither. But its so outlandish to argue that the wild wolf, mr likes a bloody sword, the 'centaur' Brandon Stark either rolled belly up and let Rhaegar win, or wasn't very good, that it feels like people forget just who Rhaegar beat.

Quote

I know Brandon jousted. We actually don't know that Brandon was a good jouster, in spite of his fine riding skills. And are you saying that since Brandon was a fine rider, as some sort of indicator of his jousting skills BUT he was still beaten by Rhaegar, which I guess could mean that riding skills are not "everything" when it comes to winning at the joust.

Of course they aren't everything. Around 75% according to Jaime. But perhaps its rude to remind you. I don't think so, since you brought up 100% ("everything").

Quote

And I have no idea if Brandon lost to Rhaegar on purpose, we have no information with which to make that deduction.

BTW, I never claimed that Brandon lost to Rhaegar on purpose, so this is something you are claiming I said, when I did not. Please don't do that.

Others have made that claim, or rather that suggestion. I did not specifically suggest that you did. It sits nicely with the suggestion you made that Rhaegar needed a trick, and that people he fought 'should have' beaten him.

All I'm doing is showing that the idea that Rhaegar couldn't win through his skill as a jouster, combined with GRRM's narrative desires, does not fit with the textual evidence.
ETA: Rephrasing... the idea that Rhaegar needed interference one way or another to win has some metaphorical/allegorical evidence supporting it, but a great weight of actual real evidence against it and no real evidence for it.
The first means its reasonable to have that idea and test it. The second means that the idea fails and should be discarded.

Quote

I think you are putting words in my mouth and that is unfair. All I said was that I though Rhaegar and the KotLT won by some sort of trickery. Here you are adding information that I claim that this was Rhaegar's goal from the onset. I never said that, and as a matter of fact, I would guess that Rhaegar's need to win was something spontaneous after the tournament started other than when he first arrived. I don't think I outline "a plan" at all.

Sigh. I think its fair to make general comments to the wider audience in the same post as replying to a specific person. I even gave it double spacing separation and indicated it was a separate thing I'd found while checking other quotes.

I didn't put words in your mouth. I didn't claim you said that. Other people have suggested that idea, and I found something pertinent and added it to the bottom of the current post rather than create a new one.
 

Quote

Let's discuss Loras "out-horsemanning" Gregor by use of a mare in heat as evidence of his greater "horsemanning", which is something I completely disagree with. I have been around horses and horse competitions for a great part of my life, and it is never considered "greater horsemanship" to bring a mare in heat into the midst of a competition, especially one that stallions would be competing in. Many people who compete with mares will actually use estrous suppression medications to keep mares from cycling during competition because of the problems they can cause.

Sure. 

Quote

And if you want to discuss who is the better rider between Loras and Gregor, I would have to say Gregor was, because he managed to control a screaming, pawing at the ground, shaking his head and rearing animal, and Gregor still managed to keep his seat and compete, although he was surely distracted by his stallion's behavior. And, if Gregor is the better rider, and still managed to lose the joust, this is another example of a better horseman not being the victor of a joust just because they are a great horseman.

Ok then, I'll accept your premise and explain a different way. 
Gregor had 100 points of riding skill and Loras 80 points.
But Gregor was forced to apply 50 points of his riding skill to manage the stallion. So Gregor only had 50 points of Rding skill to apply to the jousting part, and Loras had all 80.

So Loras had more riding skill during the bout, to apply to his joust, than Gregor - because of his trick.

Quote

Well, Elia Sand is well known for her jousting, enough to have earned the nickname Lady Lance. Has Lyanna Stark been called Lady Lance or "the female jouster" in the canon and I missed it. And trust me, I am not saying a woman can't do this, I am saying it takes any person, man or women, needs many hours of practice to be proficient.

Other people are saying its impossible, or too improbably, that Lyanna Stark could possibly be a successful jouster.
Your own argument was that she probably needed some tricks.

Are you claiming that Lady Lance needs tricks?

Are you claiming that its not possible for Lyanna Stark to have talent, and even practice, possibly a significant amount of practice - as much or more than Lady Lance?

Quote

And so far we haven't seen Elia Sand in any competition to see how she would fare. 

True. She's apparently proficient enough though to have a name for it, and be confident enough to challenge Joss Hood. We don;t know how proficient she really is.

Quote

Well, you seem to disagree with me, and that's totally fine, but how does this show that GRRM disagree's with my statement? If you are looking for a fight, and it kind of seems like you are, then let's disengage from this now. I come here to enjoy the books, experience things I may have missed or seen differently,  and the analysis of other fans, not to fight with people. Have a nice day!

You stated Lyanna needed some tricks to win a joust. That implies she could't win without tricks. Thats clearly due to her age and sex.
But GRRM has Lady Lance being a known jouster confident enough of her skills to challenge men. GRRM clearly doesn't agree with you that Lyanna's age and sex preclude her from Jousting success.

I'm not here to fight. I'd really rather not expend the energy! Nor suffer the abuse.
I'm here to learn new ideas, examine them to see if they work or not, and if they do incorporate them into my 'worldview'.

You have a nice day too. I'm sorry you got offended, that was not my intention and I honestly don't see anything I wrote to you as being offensive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do like the analysis of the Seven Drunken Oarsmen, and it's a great idea to interpret the names of the plays.

It just dawned on me that we’ve overlooked something that should have been obvious with regards to “drunken”. One definition of drunken is to saturate with a liquid. The Battle at the Trident would certainly fulfill the criteria of being saturated. It was the highlight of the Rebellion when Robert stove in Rhaegar’s breastplate, sending rubies and blood into the waters of the river, and ending the Prince’s life. The one on one combat resulted in two oarsmen leaving the scene. Rhaegar was dead and Robert was injured, so they were unable to go with the others to Kings Landing where the rest of the play continued with five oarsmen.

edited to add: if the two drunken oarsmen who left “the play” were Rhaegar and Robert, then it was Rhaegar that found Robert abed with Ashara. When Meera’s story describes it as a “sad song”, it may just mean that Rhaegar was the one that told Lyanna what he’d seen. It’s a turn of phrase to describe a confession as “singing” as in “he sang like a canary”. This news would be upsetting to Lyanna enough to make her “sniffle”.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

These are just your opinions. I guess we disagree.

Some of them were opinions, some were facts that run counter to your opinions.

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

To me symbolism, metaphors, and allegories are additional information, the same as or in some cases, more telling than visual and audio cues. I literally just saw a tv preview of Better Call Saul where the visual and audio cues provided all the information needed to get an idea for what’s about to happen. As the soundtrack sings about "Murder on my mind," Saul notes a gun between the front seats and that the push buttons on the locks are gone. 
 

if you rely strictly on the text, you’re missing out on all the additional information being provided.

Yep.

And when there is conflicting information?
Surely facts stay facts. Allegory etc is a matter of interpretation, so should be fluid to fit the facts. No?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

Some of them were opinions, some were facts that run counter to your opinions.

Yep.

And when there is conflicting information?
Surely facts stay facts. Allegory etc is a matter of interpretation, so should be fluid to fit the facts. No?

I don’t see it that way. I view the symbolism, metaphors, and allegories as additional information that expands on the facts. It does change the context for me, but I can see that this frustrates you. You see a certain line in the text and your interpretation is very black and white. Mine is 50 shades of grey, but hold the bondage - well, there’s probably some bondage  in the story somewhere!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@corbon I always find it irritating when people start from unsupported supposition such as "Rhaegar had little skill in the joust, and therefore he must have won by "trickery." I wholeheartedly agree with your arguments here on that score. That doesn't mean I rule out some plan of Rhaegar's to win the tourney. Here, I must confess, I like the idea that others have voiced that the traditional taking of the defeated jouster's armor and horse to be negotiated later may have been part of just such a plan. I note that we know that not only did Rhaegar ride against many skilled jousters and warriors (we know Bronze Yohn Royce, Brandon Stark, Ser Arthur Dayne, and Ser Barristan Selmy did) but we should also note that if the ancient custom was followed, and if this was as we have been told a tourney staged with Rhaegar's money as way to build support to replace his father, then the return of armor would be a good place for Rhaegar to approach defeated lords in private. If so, then what did those lords say in response? 

Let me be clear, what I suggest is that Rhaegar had a political agenda going into the tourney and Aerys tried to stop it by his attendance. In response Rhaegar would have to try a covert method of sounding out others about his plans. Winning as many of the matches on the part of either Rhaegar or people in his inner circle (Ser Arthur Dayne and perhaps others) would provide an excuse for these private meetings. With the information we know now, I can't say this is much more than pure speculation, but to my mind it is more to the point than trying to prove that Rhaegar is a lousy jouster who won only by trickery without any evidence to supported it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, corbon said:

It does not deny it, it absorbs it, includes it, expands on it. Loras didn't just go 'ha, clever trick, I win". He still had to actually ride the joust and defeat Gregor.
 The way Loras beat Gregor was out-horsemanning him. He was able to do that because he used a trick to lower Gregor's horsemanship, and Gregor ended up fighting his horse rather than teaming with it. Note how Gregor finished off the fight with his horse after he lost...

I almost wonder if we are looking at this the wrong way entirely? Maybe it isn’t intervention that we should be looking at, but rather karma. Simple cause and effect brought about by our own individual decisions. No matter what happens to us we all have the ability to choose our own path or reaction. After that it just becomes a magnet of like attracting like that produces the end result. If you make good choices then you will attract good things. But be make poor choices like being deceitful and you attract negative ones. Loras was deceitful and it produced a negative outcome. I would say that Lyanna WAS a WILLING sacrifice. When you willingly sacrifice too much of yourself then you take in the negative outcomes that might have been intended for others. The question then becomes, who is it that Lyanna might have been willing to sacrifice herself for? Did her dying prevent someone else’s death and if so who? 
 

I think GRRM is trying to teach us all a lesson. It’s our choices that define us. And MODERATION is key. I think maybe if you go into every situation attempting to live up to your own values that, in the end, everything will work out the way that it is intended to. 

Quote

We aren't reading a reality show. We are reading GRRM's world. GRRM has horsmanship as 75% of jousting skill, according to the in world expetrs, and backs that up with other in-world sources. And he has a 10 year old boy able to hold a lance up and joust (just barely). A 13-14 year old tomboy should be much more capable than a 10 year old boy.

And just to top it off for you... from released WoW chapters:

  Hide contents

And since a princess must have some women to attend her, her company also included pretty Jayne Ladybright and wild Elia Sand, a maid of ten-and-four.
...
Come break of day, they were off again. 
Elia Sand led the way, her black braid flying behind her as she raced across the dry, cracked plains and up into the hills. The girl was mad for horses, which might be why she often smelled like one, to the despair of her mother. Sometimes Arianne felt sorry for Ellaria. Four girls, and every one of them her father's daughter.
...

"Are you half horse, child?" Valena asked, laughing, in the yard. "Princess, did you bring a stable girl?"
"I'm Elia," the girl announced. "Lady Lance."
Whoever hung that name on her has much to answer for. Like as not it had been Prince Oberyn, though, and the Red Viper had never answered to anyone but himself.
...
"The girl jouster," Valena said. "Yes, I've heard of you. Since you were the first to the yard, you've won the honor of watering and bridling the horses."
"And after that find the bath house," said Princess Arianne. Elia was chalk and dust from heels to hair.
...
Jayne Ladybright grew greensick and spent most of the voyage spewing, which Elia Sand seemed to find hilarious. "Someone needs to spank that child," Joss Hood was heard to say... but Elia was amongst those who heard him say it.
"I am almost a woman grown, ser," she responded haughtily. "I'll let you spank me, though... but first you'll need to tilt with me, and knock me off my horse."

Hmm, fancy that.

  Hide contents

A 14 year old girl, tomboyish and wilful, described as half a horse and mad for horses, who is known (already) for jousting.

GRRM seems to disagree with you.

:agree: And will be very interested in seeing the choices that Elia makes going forward. She isn’t making great ones now, but as long as she still breathes her final outcome has not yet been decided. Hopefully she will be able to tip the scales of JUSTICE to her side with her future decisions. I think that JON is  an example of what happens when you sacrifice too much of yourself. That is why Bran saw him grow cold. He gave away too much of himself. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@corbon @SFDanny

Barristan said this to Daenerys regarding Rhaegar's skill:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys I

"King," Dany corrected. "He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name. But what do you mean?" His answer had not been one that she'd expected. "Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?"

"Your Grace," said Whitebeard, "the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but . . ."

"Go on," she urged. "You may speak freely to me."

"As you command." The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. "A warrior without peer . . . those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles."

 

The definition of puissant: Very strong, able, powerful, and effective

It's an interesting word, "puissant", and surprisingly GRRM has used it six times. Here's the thing, everyone involved in this discussion is providing text that supports their opinion, but Corbin seems to think that every point must have a declared winner while most are willing to move on. This unwillingness to agree to disagree is argumentative, which is unpleasant for the people that you are engaging with. Take Barristan's advice: "words win no battles." 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

@corbon @SFDanny

Barristan said this to Daenerys regarding Rhaegar's skill:

The definition of puissant: Very strong, able, powerful, and effective

It's an interesting word, "puissant", and surprisingly GRRM has used it six times. Here's the thing, everyone involved in this discussion is providing text that supports their opinion, but Corbin seems to think that every point must have a declared winner while most are willing to move on. This unwillingness to agree to disagree is argumentative, which is unpleasant for the people that you are engaging with. Take Barristan's advice: "words win no battles." 

 

I can only speak for myself and say I'm entirely ready to move on. In fact, I was trying to do that exact thing in my post. I raised entirely new speculation that doesn't rely on agreement about Rhaegar's skill with the lance. It may not interest anyone else, and that is fine, but I would be interested if there are any comments on my, what I would call, a informed guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I can only speak for myself and say I'm entirely ready to move on. In fact, I was trying to do that exact thing in my post. I raised entirely new speculation that doesn't rely on agreement about Rhaegar's skill with the lance. It may not interest anyone else, and that is fine, but I would be interested if there are any comments on my, what I would call, a informed guess.

I think it's an interesting point and entirely possible, but I am not familiar with any text that supports that idea.

I'm kind of straddling the fence myself. I agree with both sides. I think there's evidence to support Rhaegar's abilities, but I also think his opponents would let him win, especially if he were conspiring with lords and knights to overthrow Aerys, they wouldn't want him injured if he was soon to be "your Grace".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Yes, that was my thought as well. Who else but Wyman is described that way? The designation of the Reyaan being “key-holders” seems a tantalizing clue too! And might play into Pretty Pig’s idea that the Manderly’s will double-cross the Starks.

For several years I have been working on compiling the evidence for the Manderly's to be betraying the Stark's, which I have discussed on the LH and over here a few times. I have never seen Pretty Pig's thoughts on this. Do you have a link? I would love to read those thoughts. Most of the time I receive scoffing and flat refusal when raising this idea. 

I actually think the Manderly's are currently part of orchestrating the downfall of the Stark's and well before the Red Wedding. I also think they were part of the plotting of the Red Wedding and that Wyman was willing to sacrifice his son Wendel in the process. So, if there is some wavy parallel going on in Braavos with the Reyaan family, I am excited to see where it goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...