Heresy 228 and one over the eight

[Bael's Bastard]

Perhaps Catelyn brought some recent Blackwood ancestry to the table, and that triggered something with Ned's Blackwood ancestry.

[SFDanny]

32 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Hmmmm. Nope. Cousins marry all of the time in Westeros 

Hmmm. I know. What has that to do with whether or not @corbon was referring to the particular marriage of Rickard to his cousin Lyarra? Or that this particular marriage of cousins has anything to do with the warging abilities of Ned’s children?

[corbon]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Hmmm. I know. What has that to do with whether or not @corbon was referring to the particular marriage of Rickard to his cousin Lyarra? Or that this particular marriage of cousins has anything to do with the warging abilities of Ned’s children?

The suggestion was that perhaps Ned's generation had more 'wolf blood', or rather 'magical' blood, than they realised. Its not the sort of thing I go for, but there's no reason why not, to be fair.
It occurred to me that Rickard + Lyarra might be a case of two dominant/recessive genes (or whatever the proper term is - a gene that is always passed on, but requires a double helping, one from each parent, to be active). In the next generation (Ned's and Lyanna's kids) the blood is 'passive' again, but even passive its enough for the direwolves and 3-eyed crow to work with.
I'm just adding a little to someone elses idea that doesn't run against the text. I wouldn't go so far to run with it myself yet, in truth, but can't see anything against it.

[Lady Dyanna]

11 minutes ago, corbon said:

The suggestion was that perhaps Ned's generation had more 'wolf blood', or rather 'magical' blood, than they realised. Its not the sort of thing I go for, but there's no reason why not, to be fair.
It occurred to me that Rickard + Lyarra might be a case of two dominant/recessive genes (or whatever the proper term is - a gene that is always passed on, but requires a double helping, one from each parent, to be active). In the next generation (Ned's and Lyanna's kids) the blood is 'passive' again, but even passive its enough for the direwolves and 3-eyed crow to work with.
I'm just adding a little to someone elses idea that doesn't run against the text. I wouldn't go so far to run with it myself yet, in truth, but can't see anything against it.

Idk. What if Lyarra was either a victim herself or maybe she had an affair? 

[Lady Dyanna]

Or maybe Rickard?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

The suggestion was that perhaps Ned's generation had more 'wolf blood', or rather 'magical' blood, than they realised. Its not the sort of thing I go for, but there's no reason why not, to be fair.

The horse skinchaging, KotLT isn't really my thing either.   In fact, I'd laugh my head off if the mystery knight turned out to be Ser Shadrich, The Mad Mouse; all of five foot two and he left on the horse he rode in on.   Surely someone would have recognized the horse if it was borrowed. 

[SFDanny]

On 11/28/2019 at 9:46 AM, LynnS said:

Oh,  I missed that part about Lyarra.

No problem, it was only my guess of what @corbon was referring to, rather than incest, which is what I took it is what you alluded to. Looks like I was right about corbon's reference, but it was only a guess.

On 11/28/2019 at 9:46 AM, LynnS said:

I think the short answer is that it's the direwolves who initiate warging and awaken any latent skinchanging abilities.  But that doesn't mean it isn't there or that green dreaming is in any way dependent on the ability to warg.  In Ned's case, it's the weirnet or Bloodraven who sends the dream.

Edit: Direwolves haven't been seen south of the wall for 200 years.

Not really concerned about this topic, but doesn't that run in contradiction with what we learn about skin changing in the ADWD prologue chapter? I understand the power is in the human skin changer, not the animal. The skin changer may be limited by number of animals he/she can control, but not by species, I think. Am I wrong?

And, yes, I understand the Direwolves are only recently seen south of the Wall. 

On 11/28/2019 at 9:46 AM, LynnS said:

On the other subject, sorry to delay.  I really don't think the idea that Rhaegar was making alliances at the tourney is in dispute by most people.  I agree with you.  I'm not sure I can add anything to it that would make a difference.

Well, I'm often surprised at what people will dispute. For instance, as I said, I argued for many years that there was even a divide between Aerys and Rhaegar. Unless something is completely spelled out readers will dispute any evidence, no matter how strong. I would only say on the specific topic of Rhaegar attempting to make alliances at Harrenhal, I think pointing out the possible methods by which this could have been done is a important step in looking for how the politics at the tourney played out. I'm glad you find that much not in dispute, but if you do dispute some of the ideas I've tried to put forward here, then I'd love to read your thoughts on them.

On 11/28/2019 at 9:46 AM, LynnS said:

But I do wonder about this quote from Tyrion:
 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion VI

"For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . ."

"How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?" He knew where it ended.

 I consider Tyrion to be a slayer of lies and pay attention to what he says.  I suspect Pycelle was responsible for the message sent to Brandon which brought him to his end at Kingslanding.  So this to me is the betrayal of Rhaegar who wasn't there at the time to defend himself against whatever charges were cooked up and laid at his feet.  It served it's purpose in getting Brandon and Rickard into Aerys' power.

 

I doubt Pycelle is responsible for Brandon going to King's Landing. I think it is the logical place for Rhaegar to go with Lyanna if one believes Aerys and Rhaegar are supporting each other against the marriage between Robert and Lyanna going forward. In addition, as @Bael's Bastard has put forward, the example of Catelyn laying a false trail for the Lannisters to follow at Inn at the Crossroads, may well be a hint of what Rhaegar does seventeen years previously, perhaps at the same location. Only this time, instead of loudly proclaiming Winterfell as his destination, it would be King's Landing.

But I find the quote fascinating indeed. One thing I think it is obviously trying to make the reader think upon is the answer to Tyrion's last question. Long ago a one time poster on these boards by the pseudonym of Other-in-Law pointed me to the idea that Pycelle is responsible for a sabotage of a ritual that starts the fires at Summerhall. A much younger Pycelle has only started his time as Grand Maester when the fires at Summerhall break out and kill so many. It is a theory to which I'm quite partial.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Not really concerned about this topic, but doesn't that run in contradiction with what we learn about skin changing in the ADWD prologue chapter? I understand the power is in the human skin changer, not the animal. The skin changer may be limited by number of animals he/she can control, but not by species, I think. Am I wrong?

No you are not wrong about Varamyr,,he's a powerful skindchanger, something that his father recognizes when he kills the old dog and inflicts pain on his son.  He quickly turns him over to others of his kind.  A very small society by their numbers.  

So as far as the Starks are concerned;  I'd say that they haven't had any real knowledge or experience of it for some time.  Their primary  connections seems to be with direwolves and the Wall in effect stops any connection between direwoves and their bonded Stark.  So Ned's generation hasn't had the benefit of that connection.  To skinchange, you become the animal, that would be hard to miss.  

With the direwolves, it begins by initiating wolf dreams and the full power to warg or skinchange  by choice doesn't occur until the third eye is opened.

So I am somewhat skeptical about Lyanna's ability to skinchange, but I wouldn't rule it out.

2 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Well, I'm often surprised at what people will dispute. For instance, as I said, I argued for many years that there was even a divide between Aerys and Rhaegar. Unless something is completely spelled out readers will dispute any evidence, no matter how strong. I would only say on the specific topic of Rhaegar attempting to make alliances at Harrenhal, I think pointing out the possible methods by which this could have been done is a important step in looking for how the politics at the tourney played out. I'm glad you find that much not in dispute, but if you do dispute some of the ideas I've tried to put forward here, then I'd love to read your thoughts on them.

Oh my goodness, there's tension, suspicion and scheming for sure.  Aerys disinherits Rhaegar for one thing; he certainly doesn't like Elia or Dorne and essentially keeps her hostage at the Red Keep as surety against Rhaegar's loyalty.  I think Rhaegar is appalled by Aerys' madness and brutality (beginning with the events at Duskendale) and the purpose of the tourney was form alliances that would support Rhaegar taking the throne.  I think he intended to do as much should he have prevailed at the Trident.  He meant to change the government and see just rule and good government.  I think he meant to pass on this legacy to his son.  

It's Aerys who is threatened by alliances between the North, The Riverlands, The Stormlands and the Vale should they ally themselves with Rhaegar.  I think Aerys and those acting as agents plotted with malice aforethought to make sure that didn't happen.  That includes destroying Rhaegar's reputation starting with the tourney and triggering the war with the capture and murder of Rickard and Brandon.  I mean one can go on and on.  LOL

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I doubt Pycelle is responsible for Brandon going to King's Landing. I think it is the logical place for Rhaegar to go with Lyanna if one believes Aerys and Rhaegar are supporting each other against the marriage between Robert and Lyanna going forward.

Well, Pycelle admits to being involved in Aerys' scheming and he doesn't exactly deny betraying Rhaegar.  Instead  he implies doing everything for Aerys up until the point where he was killed and then switched allegiences because all the Targs were dead and gone.  As for sending the note;  I fall back on the role of maesters in sending communications.

I actually think that Lyanna was captured by  Aerys before Rhaegar even knew about it.  But yes, if you are going to hide someone for a time;  I'd pick the black cells, and/or a brothel with a secret passageway to the Red Keep.  

But I do think Rhaegar got her out of there using Varys, Ashera and possibly Arthur Dayne.  The next best hiding place would be the Quiet Isle where the brothers never speak and where noble ladies sometimes go for help.

I know it's completely opposite to you point of view and I'm fine with that.  If it's a choice between a romance and a horror story; I have to go with the Monster.  LOL

3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

But I find the quote fascinating indeed. One thing I think it is obviously trying to make the reader think upon is the answer to Tyrion's last question. Long ago a one time poster on these boards by the pseudonym of Other-in-Law pointed me to the idea that Pycelle is responsible for a sabotage of a ritual that starts the fires at Summerhall. A much younger Pycelle has only started his time as Grand Maester when the fires at Summerhall break out and kill so many. It is a theory to which I'm quite partial.

Oh I missed that one.  

[Lady Dyanna]

On 11/28/2019 at 6:17 PM, LynnS said:

The horse skinchaging, KotLT isn't really my thing either.   In fact, I'd laugh my head off if the mystery knight turned out to be Ser Shadrich, The Mad Mouse; all of five foot two and he left on the horse he rode in on.   Surely someone would have recognized the horse if it was borrowed. 

Someone might have realized and been told they were nuts. Many horses look exactly the same and have multiple riders with access to them. 

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I am somewhat skeptical about Lyanna's ability to skinchange, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Maybe. But then why refer to her as a centaur or half horse? In present day we say this colloquially. Do we know that to be the case within the setting of the story? Or are we applying our own standards when interpreting the information given? 

[Lady Dyanna]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So as far as the Starks are concerned;  I'd say that they haven't had any real knowledge or experience of it for some time.  Their primary  connections seems to be with direwolves and the Wall in effect stops any connection between direwoves and their bonded Stark.  So Ned's generation hasn't had the benefit of that connection.  To skinchange, you become the animal, that would be hard to miss.

Are you forgetting the examples that we currently have in story? I’m pretty sure that Jon would have went beyond the wall at some point while Ghost was missing and he still wasn’t able to feel his presence. It might just be something that both parties need to be open to. Not to mention that even though most have not seen a dire wolf on the South side of the wall, that doesn’t preclude them from existing. We also don’t know for sure that Ned’s generation had no experience with skin changing. The only person’s thoughts that we have access to are Ned’s. That only says that either Ned didn’t or has no recall of it. Things don’t cease to exist just because you can’t definitively prove them. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

With the direwolves, it begins by initiating wolf dreams and the full power to warg or skinchange  by choice doesn't occur until the third eye is opened.

Does anyone actually “initiate” the wolf dreams? Couldn’t they just occur spontaneously?

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I am somewhat skeptical about Lyanna's ability to skinchange, but I wouldn't rule it out.

Still agree with your end conclusion. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh my goodness, there's tension, suspicion and scheming for sure.  Aerys disinherits Rhaegar for one thing; he certainly doesn't like Elia or Dorne and essentially keeps her hostage at the Red Keep as surety against Rhaegar's loyalty.  I think Rhaegar is appalled by Aerys' madness and brutality (beginning with the events at Duskendale) and the purpose of the tourney was form alliances that would support Rhaegar taking the throne.  I think he intended to do as much should he have prevailed at the Trident.  He meant to change the government and see just rule and good government.  I think he meant to pass on this legacy to his son.  

Yes. But all of those things occur AFTER war has already broken out and NOT before. I would think that Rhaegar expressing doubt about the path not taken may well point to him NOT having been scheming. Or even not doing enough to protect himself in the face of his father’s “assumed” madness. And correct me if I’m wrong, but by the current Westerosi standards Rhargar’s son was in line to inherit. The only place that followed primogenacy without respect to gender was Dorne. And that was due to an agreement with the crown to allow it. I’m pretty sure that they could also revoke that at any point in time. Ultimately the Crown is the one making the decisions. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It's Aerys who is threatened by alliances between the North, The Riverlands, The Stormlands and the Vale should they ally themselves with Rhaegar.  I think Aerys and those acting as agents plotted with malice aforethought to make sure that didn't happen.  That includes destroying Rhaegar's reputation starting with the tourney and triggering the war with the capture and murder of Rickard and Brandon.  I mean one can go on and on.  LOL

Possibly. But this is built on assumption as well. Rhaegar might not have been involved in anything. He has nothing to gain in it other than having his father out of control a bit earlier than he should have been. If looking for someone with the most to benefit I might consider looking at Tywin Lannister first. He is the one with the most to benefit from it. What else is left to get the Lannister’s foot in the door to being royalty. It’s already suggested via dreams that Tywin wanted Cersei to be Queen. How else could he achieve that? Maybe instead of holding Elia hostage he was instead trying to protect her. The singers do tend to sing their songs of those who won. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well, Pycelle admits to being involved in Aerys' scheming and he doesn't exactly deny betraying Rhaegar.  Instead  he implies doing everything for Aerys up until the point where he was killed and then switched allegiences because all the Targs were dead and gone.  As for sending the note;  I fall back on the role of maesters in sending communications.

True. It is the role of a maester to send and at times write correspondence. But they aren’t solely in charge of this action either. And I find it hard to take Pycelle’s loyalty seriously at all since his loyalty did not transfer to the new king, but rather to the LANNISTERS. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I actually think that Lyanna was captured by  Aerys before Rhaegar even knew about it.  But yes, if you are going to hide someone for a time;  I'd pick the black cells, and/or a brothel with a secret passageway to the Red Keep.  

It is definitely plausible that Lyanna was kidnapped more than once. Arya sure was. And those are definitely good hiding places. Thing is that It is also suggested that the tunnels were built at the insistence of the Hand. Hard to know which version is the truth. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

But I do think Rhaegar got her out of there using Varys, Ashera and possibly Arthur Dayne.  The next best hiding place would be the Quiet Isle where the brothers never speak and where noble ladies sometimes go for help.

Wow. This seems like a huge leap to me. Can you explain how you came to this hypothesis? Is there any proof or are you just speculating?

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I know it's completely opposite to you point of view and I'm fine with that.  If it's a choice between a romance and a horror story; I have to go with the Monster.  LOL

I’d nearly like to ask if Voice is skinchanging you right now, as I swear I have had this same conversation with him in reverse before. Either way I think I’d prefer a story that contained both aspects. Makes the story a bit more realistic and reflective of real life. 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh I missed that one.  

It happens. 

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’d nearly like to ask if Voice is skinchanging you right now, as I swear I have had this same conversation with him in reverse before. Either way I think I’d prefer a story that contained both aspects. Makes the story a bit more realistic and reflective of real life. 

I haven't been to TLH for years.  I don't even remember my password.  I haven't a clue what Voice thinks or what your conversations with him have been like..  To all of the above, it is always about someone's preference, even you.  So what?    

[Lady Dyanna]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I haven't been to TLH for years.  I don't even remember my password.  I haven't a clue what Voice thinks or what your conversations with him have been like..  To all of the above, it is always about someone's preference, even you.  So what?    

Neither have I. In fact that was a recollection from a conversation that happened a little over three years ago. 

My point is actually the same as the statement you just made. There is always something that came before. At some point it becomes ridiculous to keep searching for things. There’s nearly always something that came before. Sometimes you just need to let go.  Make a decision, take a leap of fate, and stick to it, otherwise you really will drive yourself crazy. 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Neither have I. In fact that was a recollection from a conversation that happened a little over three years ago. 

My point is actually the same as the statement you just made. There is always something that came before. At some point it becomes ridiculous to keep searching for things. There’s nearly always something that came before. Sometimes you just need to let go.  Make a decision, take a leap of fate, and stick to it, otherwise you really will drive yourself crazy. 

I have no recollections about the place at all.  The bottom line is that I'm sick, very sick.  I don't have a lot of energy and I prefer to keep things upbeat.  I think whatever pleases someone, however they want finish the story is entirely up to them.

[Lady Dyanna]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have no recollections about the place at all.  The bottom line is that I'm sick, very sick.  I don't have a lot of energy and I prefer to keep things upbeat.  I think whatever pleases someone, however they want finish the story is entirely up to them.

I’m really sorry to hear that you’re ill. That’s something that I understand a lot about unfortunately. I just try not to let it define me, even though it might be difficult at times. Seems to me that you are still entitled to an opinion though. Just don’t expect me to agree with it. ;P

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I’m really sorry to hear that you’re ill. That’s something that I understand a lot about unfortunately. I just try not to let it define me, even though it might be difficult at times. Seems to me that you are still entitled to an opinion though. Just don’t expect me to agree with it. ;P

I never expect anyone to agree with me.  LOL  Ser Shadrich…..

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

The merchant looked to his escort. "What say you, ser?"

"Oh, these three are nought to fear." Ser Shadrich was a wiry, fox-faced man with a sharp nose and a shock of orange hair, mounted on a rangy chestnut courser. Though he could not have been more than five foot two, he had a cocksure manner. "The one is old, t'other fat, and the big one is a woman. Let them come."

"As you say." The merchant lowered his crossbow.

……..

"The merchant called you Shadrich."

"Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen. Some call me the Mad Mouse." He turned his shield to show her his sigil, a large white mouse with fierce red eyes, on bendy brown and blue. "The brown is for the lands I've roamed, the blue for the rivers that I've crossed. The mouse is me."

"And are you mad?"

"Oh, quite. Your common mouse will run from blood and battle. The mad mouse seeks them out."

……..

Woman was marginally better than wench, she supposed. "You and good Ser Creighton have much in common, then."

Ser Shadrich laughed. "Oh, I doubt that, but it may be that you and I share a quest. A little lost sister, is it? With blue eyes and auburn hair?" He laughed again. "You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well."

Brienne kept her face a mask, to hide her dismay. "Who is this Sansa Stark, and why do you seek her?"

 

Where is Ser Shadrich now?
 

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Alayne II

"You are never an intrusion, sweetling. I was just now telling these good knights what a dutiful daughter I had."

"Dutiful and beautiful," said an elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders.

"Aye," said the second knight, a burly fellow with a thick salt-and-pepper beard, a red nose bulbous with broken veins, and gnarled hands as large as hams. "You left out that part, m'lord."

"I would do the same if she were my daughter," said the last knight, a short, wiry man with a wry smile, pointed nose, and bristly orange hair. "Particularly around louts like us."

Alayne laughed. "Are you louts?" she said, teasing. "Why, I took the three of you for gallant knights."

"Knights they are," said Petyr. "Their gallantry has yet to be demonstrated, but we may hope. Allow me to present Ser Byron, Ser Morgarth, and Ser Shadrich. Sers, the Lady Alayne, my natural and very clever daughter . . . with whom I must needs confer, if you will be so good as to excuse us."

The three knights bowed and withdrew, though the tall one with the blond hair kissed her hand before taking his leave.

 

1.  

    

[frenin]

@SFDanny

Even if it's entirely circumstancial, i find you an evidence that people may being thinking Rickard was planning something fishy.

 

In each of these, Starks died. Yet the house continued with its fortunes mostly unchanged—likely because of the firm resolve of most Lords of Winterfell not to become embroiled in the intrigues of the southron court. When the Stark line was nearly obliterated by Mad King Aerys after Rhaegar’s abduction of Lyanna, some misguided men laid the blame at the feet of the late Lord Rickard, whose alliances by blood and friendship tied the great houses together and ensured that they would act together in response to the Mad King’s crimes.

 

The important thing here are not the alliances  of blood and friendship that ensured the fall of the Targs, that's just a post hoc, the important thing here is that some "misguided men laid the blame at Rickard's feet" and there is a very specifical reason some misguided men, and i'm pretty sure here he's not talking about Aerys and Rhaegar's cronies because those have less to zero credibility but people not on their influence saw what Rickard was doing and thought the man had it coming.

If that's true tho, that don't explain why the alligiance, if there was one, was so careless thought and why we don't have any Targ concerned about that but all we have, from Barri B to Yandel to JonCon is that the father and son only real concern, besides prophecy and Tywin, were father and son.

[LynnS]

I'd say that Shadrich's wry smile and comment about not mentioning Sansa's looks means that he knows who she is.  So I'm on pins and needles.  Is he a crannogman ?  His stature would suggest it, his cocksure manner and tendency to 'run into ' battle' could place him at the tourney at Harrenhal as the mystery knight.  The 'Shady Glen"?  Nobody knows where to find it.  Sounds like another place, no one can find - Greywater Watch.  So if he is a crannogman, where is his allegiance?  I'm guessing it's with the Starks.

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Someone might have realized and been told they were nuts. Many horses look exactly the same and have multiple riders with access to them. 

I doubt that any old horse will do or that most horses look alike, they don't.  Certainly not to anyone familiar or dependent on horses.  The horses get as much attention from onlookers as the the riders if Sansa is anything to go by.  She takes note of both horse and rider in the tourney at KL.  The knights certainly didn't pick their horses by lottery and rode their own horses.  A tourney horse is a special animal and not one that is likely to be taken for the asking  The squires responsible for them would certainly know their own horse as well as the owner. 

We get no description of the KoLT horse at all.  But we do know something about Shadrich's mount:

A rangey, chestnut courser: 

A courser is a swift and strong horse, frequently used during the Middle Ages as a warhorse. It was ridden by knights and men-at-arms.

Potentially the same horse as KoLT since horses can live 25-30 years. 

Ser Shadrich says he is not a tourney knight.  The KoLT wasn't there for the tourney or he would have accepted the prizes.  Tourfneys are mock battles.  He was there for the battle.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'd say that Shadrich's wry smile and comment about not mentioning Sansa's looks means that he knows who she is.  So I'm on pins and needles.  Is he a crannogman ?  His stature would suggest it, his cocksure manner and tendency to 'run into ' battle' could place him at the tourney at Harrenhal as the mystery knight.  The 'Shady Glen"?  Nobody knows where to find it.  Sounds like another place, no one can find - Greywater Watch.  So if he is a crannogman, where is his allegiance?  I'm guessing it's with the Starks.

Shadrich is a potentially interesting character in that he was searching for Sansa, clearly recognised her, hangs around but hasn't yet claimed the reward. There's a big clue in the upcoming Aleyne chapter when he describes himself as a mouse with wings; die fleidermaus or bat, which suggests a Whent and takes us to Harrenhal