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Heresy 228 and one over the eight

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On 12/20/2019 at 6:19 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

My only other thought was regarding the figures in black robes. Is this more likely indicative of the NW or just symbolic of death itself? Most of the time we see death pictures visually it is as a hooded figure cloaked in black. 

It could be a representation of death, but death is usually depicted with a sickle, not a spear. And usually death is depicted alone, as a single figure. not a group of men. The black cowled figures carrying spears seem to fit the Night's Watch as they are described in the text, although we all interpret things differently.

On 12/20/2019 at 6:19 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

I only have a couple minutes, so just wanted to get out a couple things that struck me when I read through your comments. It never really dawned on me that Jaime was taking the sword out of the water. It just seems to have a lot of Lady of the Lake imagery surrounding it. Is he the new Ser Arthur Dayne? And what might that mean for Arthur and Ashara?  Never much thought of incest there. But it is hinted at in two places in the present day story. Both between Theon and Asha, and the Cersei and Jaime themselves. Interestingly enough of those two one is fake and one is real.

I am not sure that Jaime is the new Arthur Dayne, but certainly that could fit a goal for Jaime. He wanted to be Arthur Dayne but became the Smiling Knight instead. Maybe this is Jaime dreaming of a future development for himself. And while there could be Lady of the Lake imagery around Dawn and the SotM, the sword that Jaime pulls from the water is not Dawn. We are not even sure if it's a representation of Ice. The blue flames that hint at life could hint to Dawn, however, since we have at least one description of Dawn "alive with light" although Ned's fever dream doesn't indicate if the light he see's is in the form of flame.

I wonder if this idea of a sword being pulled from water might be the first step in Jaime seeing himself as Azor Ahai. The first forging of that sword had it quenched in water, although nothing about Lightbringer indicates it could have a twin sword that Brienne could wield. Jaime's fever dream is full of quite interesting and rather confusing imagery.

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The dream is interesting, and again, gives us 'pale fire'.  I interpret it as just Jamie's guilt, but could it be more?

Is this truly a Lannister place with dead Lannisters?  I interpret Jamie as more Targaryen than Lannister. 

What is the monster?

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On 12/20/2019 at 6:19 AM, Lady Dyanna said:

I only have a couple minutes, so just wanted to get out a couple things that struck me when I read through your comments. It never really dawned on me that Jaime was taking the sword out of the water. It just seems to have a lot of Lady of the Lake imagery surrounding it. Is he the new Ser Arthur Dayne? And what might that mean for Arthur and Ashara?  Never much thought of incest there. But it is hinted at in two places in the present day story. Both between Theon and Asha, and the Cersei and Jaime themselves. Interestingly enough of those two one is fake and one is real.

I didn't address the incest part of your thoughts, and I do think it could be something worth investigating in the Dayne family. I have seen speculation that Arthur and Ashara are twins, so that would give us a parallel to Jaime and Cersei, another incest sibling duo in the story. Arthur and his sword and his beautiful sister also have hints of King Arthur, and in some of those tales, incest leading to a child is part of the ties to Arthur and Morgaine. So, I do think that GRRM could be hinting to something when it comes to Arthur and Ashara. If Arthur and Ashara had a child, what child would that be?

My gut instinct tells me that the hidden incest couple in this story is going to be associated with the Stark's, mostly because the Stark's and Lannister's are set up as foils. Yet I think GRRM likes to give us good and bad guys on the surface, but show us that they really are not that different.

And this does pop up in the Greyjoy storyline. Theon and Asha's interaction early in Clash is there for a reason, if only to tease us with the potential. And later there is the idea of Asha and Victarion, and this kind of avuncular marriage might be crossing a line as well. But we see it in the Targaryen line, and also the Starks. 

GRRM also hints at possible incest with Gendry and Bella, and in this case, they would be completely unaware of their familial ties. So from subtle hints to smack us in the face with Craster and the Lannister twins and the Targaryens, who are well aware of their actions. It's like 50 shades of incest!

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On 12/24/2019 at 3:47 PM, Brad Stark said:

The dream is interesting, and again, gives us 'pale fire'.  I interpret it as just Jamie's guilt, but could it be more?

Is this truly a Lannister place with dead Lannisters?  I interpret Jamie as more Targaryen than Lannister. 

What is the monster?

Jaime's dream is super interesting. The blue fire is intriguing, based on how it could hint at the sword Ice. Fire is a theme, no matter the color, and we are told that nothing burns like the cold. Jaime never mentions heat when it comes to his dream swords, so does that indicate they don't give off heat? Maybe they only give off light... and life.

I am not sure that Jaime is below Casterly Rock. I used to think so, or perhaps even Winterfell, but now I wonder if he could be below the wall. Would there be sand below the wall? Storm's End is another place that might have caverns that lead to water and sand but I don't really link Jaime to Storm's End, though in some way, his children are trying to steal Storm's End from the Baratheon's.

The monster in Jaime's dream could be an animal, or some mythological best. GRRM also teases us with an infant named Monster, and I could see him playing this card as a trick of some sort. A slight of hand. It's also possible that Jaime's "monster" comes from the sea. He does think that many things can live in the water. 

I am curious how you connect "pale fire" to guilt on Jaime's part? 

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@St Daga It’s driving me crazy. There’s a piece of this puzzle that I’m still missing somewhere and I just can’t quite place it. I do agree that as far as ethics go, the Lannisters are totally opposite Ned, which makes them play off of one another well. But I’m also drawn to the idea that there are multiple similarities between Ned and Doran Martell, and wonder what that could mean? It’s almost like you have the exact opposite set up there as well  Ned is the younger brother, but much less explosive, where as with Doran and Oberyn it’s the exact opposite dynamic  maybe that’s who we should be comparing and contrasting as both of those brothers... Brandon and Oberyn were more wild and it led to an early death for both  

The thing about the pale blue sword... It reminds me most of the swords that Daenerys sees in her dreams of the line of ancient Kings and Queens. In that dream, however, the rulers are actually almost cheering her on, lighting her way to get her to safety. Is Brienne there to do the same thing for Jaime? Does Jaime having His own sword, one that has been split into two, signify that he might be more involved in lighting the way for himself along with Brienne’s assistance?

As for the pale blue color, to me I would take it nearly the opposite way as @Brad Stark suggests. To me, it would stand to reason that the more pale the flame, the less the impurity. I mean, isn’t that how fire works in our own world? A wood fire is going to be darker than say a flame from natural gas. As the fuel becomes more pure, the flame becomes more pale.  Also, when you think of it, aren’t the hottest flames actually blue? 

 

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On 12/15/2019 at 9:37 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Think that one is going a bit too far even for me. But I have often wondered about the passages that GRRM has italicized. On first glance there seems to be no rhyme or reason to it. But when I was reading through Cersei’s recollections of her visit with “Maggie” it seems that they are definitely there for a reason. Almost makes me wonder if it might indicate a change in the narration of that section. i.e. the characters current thoughts v. A memory, etc. 

 

Edited to tag @Springwatch  as it seems directly related to his/her question. 

I’ve noticed that italics are used to indicate a telepathic communication (e.g 3EC to Bran, or Jon hearing Bran’s silent shout in the weirwood sapling dream, or Viserys appearing to Dany on the Dothraki Sea); or more prosaically, offering a window on a character’s inner, private thoughts (e.g Jaime thinking the truth, often being at odds with what he says), if that helps. If you quote the Cersei passage you have in mind, I could take a look. 

Edited by ravenous reader

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On 12/30/2019 at 10:36 AM, St Daga said:

Jaime's dream is super interesting. The blue fire is intriguing, based on how it could hint at the sword Ice. Fire is a theme, no matter the color, and we are told that nothing burns like the cold. Jaime never mentions heat when it comes to his dream swords, so does that indicate they don't give off heat? Maybe they only give off light... and life.

Technically, the flame is pale, it just takes on the color of the steel in the sword: silvery-blue.    Which also indicates that the sword he and Brienne possess in the dream aren't Valyrian blades, which are typically smoky dark grey, Ice included. 

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