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Black Crow

Heresy 228 and one over the eight

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13 hours ago, corbon said:

Haha. Because if anything, I'm the anti-heretic, though I'm certainly not anti-heresy (just anti bad arguments). My thinking is 'plain', logical, non-mystical as much as is possible, though I don't deny the mysticism aspect of the series and world entirely, obviously. 
I like hanging out here because there are more interesting thoughts, of types that don't occur to me, than in the main forum. I don't agree with that many of them, but I do get at least to consider them, expand my understanding, learn about aspects and patterns that I couldn't possibly do on my own. I don;t really feel like I have anything to contribute as a basis for discussion.

Its not you, its me.

Yes, I get where you are coming from.  I'm not much for for writing OP's or conversation starters these days.  It means you have to come up with something that will engage members and then defend the nets from all comers.  I don't have a lot of energy to do that anymore.  I don't want to keep going over old ground without something new to add either. 

13 hours ago, corbon said:

99.9% boring compared to the ideas usually coming out here. People are people, and do people stuff. There much much less deep plotting, and very little god-like overwatch or action by hidden powers in my ASoIaF. Just about the only recognisable act by the Old Gods is the extremely passive one of triggering the arrival of the direwolf pups.
Some examples:
There's no Night King just an old LC who went a bit rogue (perhaps!) and got some super-bad press afterwards by his victorious enemies.
There does seem to be some sort of cognisant "great Other" but he may be no more than a rogue CotF or something similar, not much different from Bloodraven.
Craster left his sons in the cold to die. So there were no rivals. No true 'sacrifice', do 'deal', that is just the excuse to keep the wives in line, and their 'the sons are coming' line is just their superstition. Its just 'normal' white walkers coming, nothing to do with Craster's sons.
Rhaegar honoured Lyanna for he KotLT exploits. He had no real interest in her at that time. There were neither politics nor romance involved in that act, but people misinterpreted it at the time because they didn't understand the real reason. Notice how there is no significant fallout beyond the instant reactions? Nothing at all further happens, at least as far as we know so far, until the abduction event months later after much has changed (most particularly, the arrival of Aegon and the implications of Elia being unable to birth a third child).
Rh'lor is mostly a human scam based around certain magical properties and rituals. Probably. True believers, but not a real 'actor'.

I do greatly respect LmLs ideas about pre-history

I think that gives you some idea. Not very heresy... 

I would have said that the difference between the way you and I experience and engage with the material was so far apart; that I wasn't sure we could have a conversation until I read this bit.  It might surprise you to learn that I agree with much of what you have said here.  You might in fact be in your own class of heretic.  The stuff about RLJ would choke a lot of people on the main forum.

I do think that there is a lot of window dressing around certain subjects like the Night King and the truth is far more logical and simpler at it's root.   Although I think your natural tendencies in reducing all the mystical or magical aspects to non-significance is off the mark.  I'm not sure that I will ever be able to convince you otherwise. 

 I will try to respond to the objections in your other post later today.  I have stuff I have to do including dragging my legs around the grocery store if I want to eat.  Wrapping, and baking and damn it.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I get where you are coming from.  I'm not much for for writing OP's or conversation starters these days.  It means you have to come up with something that will engage members and then defend the nets from all comers.  I don't have a lot of energy to do that anymore.  I don't want to keep going over old ground without something new to add either. 

I would have said that the difference between the way you and I experience and engage with the material was so far apart; that I wasn't sure we could have a conversation until I read this bit.  It might surprise you to learn that I agree with much of what you have said here.  You might in fact be in your own class of heretic.  The stuff about RLJ would choke a lot of people on the main forum.

I do think that there is a lot of window dressing around certain subjects like the Night King and the truth is far more logical and simpler at it's root.   Although I think your natural tendencies in reducing all the mystical or magical aspects to non-significance is off the mark.  I'm not sure that I will ever be able to convince you otherwise. 

 I will try to respond to the objections in your other post later today.  I have stuff I have to do including dragging my legs around the grocery store if I want to eat.  Wrapping, and baking and damn it.

RE 1st part: We really do need TWOW to shake things up. We've been working theories with the same canon for 8 years now. TWOW will certainly squash some theories and bring new angles to others and likely bring us new theories. How much of Heresy theories would exist without ADWD? 

RE 2nd part: I think we are all our own version of Heretic. And that's awesome. I don't think there is a single theory we all agree on 100%. Many theories aren't even agreed on by more than 2-3 of us.

I myself have a few theories that I might be the only supporter of.

Edited by Lord Aegon The Compromiser

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16 hours ago, corbon said:

I'm not sure whether Lyanna's smile died or not. She knows why she's been given the honour, and honour it is. The political relevance may not be immediately on her mind.

You seem to see Lyanna as more empty-headed than I do, or most people would.

Just to continue the parallel I began earlier, imagine that in 1996 -- before there was any Lewinsky scandal -- Bill Clinton went on national TV, pointed to Monica with a phallic object a dozen feet long, and said "You're much hotter than my wife Hillary."

In this situation, are we seriously to believe Monica would be unaware of the political relevance?  Or that Lyanna would be, at Harrenhal?

Lyanna is after all the same girl who, when offered the "honour" of marrying the lord of the stormlands, scoffed that he had sired a bastard... and correctly predicted that Robert would continue to cheat on her or any wife after he got married, because love can't change a man's nature.

So she was no fool.  She understood the world around her quite well, which is why I think her smile died too, and the canonical text is spot-on.

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

What I have trouble getting out of my head here is that elsewhere in the books, dreams [or at least those making it on to the page] are not sweet and random, but are the result of others getting into the head of the dreamer.

Good point. Not all dreams in these books exist as a function of the dreamer's mind.

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1 hour ago, Lord Aegon The Compromiser said:

I think we are all our own version of Heretic. And that's awesome. I don't think there is a single theory we all agree on 100%.

The theory that GRRM risks not finishing ASOIAF, and that it would be unfortunate if he didn't, is pretty close.

More abstractly, I think the theory of Heresy is that mobthink does not create reality, and consensus does not establish truth.

If TWOW really is published and tells half the remaining story, I think it's going to prove Heresy correct about that.   Surprising truths will emerge, and heads will explode both on Westeros the web site, and Westeros the fictional continent.

But if TWOW morphs into two books, the next book only tells a quarter of the remaining story.  And obviously the chance of getting such revelations will plummet, and so will the probability of GRRM finishing the series.

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15 hours ago, corbon said:

So what I'm seeing is... no parallels at all. the numbers don't match (many vs 4 against 7 vs 3), the weather doesn't match, the locale doesn't match, the sides don't match, the verbals don't match or sync in any way, the results don't match... what actually matches???

If you strip it down to the basics, there are elements that are the same. 

In the fever dream Ned and his men are seven against three Kingsguard.

In the encounter with Jaime, Ned, Jory, and Wyl are three men against Jaime's twenty.

In the fever dream Ned's men are wraiths.

In the encounter with Jaime, the Lannister men are red phantoms.

In the fever dream Ned and the Kingsguard talk about all the places Ned expected to see them. No mention is ever made of Lyanna, but her relationship to Ned is that she's his sister, and she had been taken hostage.

In the encounter with Jaime, they discuss the reason for the attack: Jaime's brother Tyrion was taken hostage.

In the fever dream, Ned sees the Red Mountains at the Kingsguard's back.

In the encounter with Jaime, Ned sees the Red Keep turn red with blood.

 

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Riding through the rainy night s not a new paragraph, isolated, later in time. Its the same paragraph, a continuation of him thinking over the meeting he'd just had. And its his promise to care for someone else's bastard that triggers Jon Snow's face.

I wasn't trying to quote the entire chapter verbatim. I tried condensing whenever possible.

I might point out that interpretation varies according to who you think Jon Snow's parents are. If you believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, then of course you would think Ned promised her that he'd take care of her bastard. But if you're like me and believe Ned is Jon's father, then he's comparing his own actions and honor to Robert's lack of honor. Ned kept his vows, but raised his own bastard. The promises he made to Lyanna were a separate matter all together. Barra's mother didn't plead. It was more of a kind request. She said if Ned saw the king, tell him the baby is beautiful, that she has remained faithful and has had no other man since. If you believe, like me, that Lyanna died of a sword wound, Barra's mother's words seem to indicate that Lyanna remained a faithful to Robert - that she has not had any other man.

10 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

I think that this is where you need to look at house colors in relation to the horses and how they are adorned. For example, I believe that both Hugh of the Vale might actually represent the death of Jon Arryn. Loras Tyrell represents two different characters. In his multiple colored jewels he represents Brynden Tully. In his blue flowered armor he represents Lysa Arryn. (Clegane kills his horse and there is mention of an avalanche) 

Pretty Pig and I saw the symbolism in the way Loras was dressed, and drew parallels between his tilt with Gregor and the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. 

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.
 

Quote

Some Pig said:

A reed, cloaked in vines and flowers, on a slim, fast grey mare, facing off against a powerful opponent. The wolf girl concerned for the rider's safety against a bigger, stronger, and more formidable foe. The wolf girl favoring the rider because of an earlier personal connection. The grey mare's scent distracts the opponent's horse and allows "her" champion to win.

KOTLT: Howland. How did Lyanna help him cheat?

To take this further and make it both an echo and an inversion to the ToHH KotLT incident, we look at what happens next - the Mountain by no means accepts his defeat graciously, as did those defeated at the ToHH.  Instead, he flies into a rage, kills his own horse, and then tries to take out Loras next.   Loras is saved from death only by the intervention of the Hound - the personal protector of the Crown Prince.  (As many have noted, such as Melifeather, the Hound is the current day inversion of Arthur Dayne.)

Also of note, during CleganeBowl Lite at the Tourney of the Hand, King Bob gets fed up and yells to "Stop this madness!" before the Hound obeys and kneels, and the Mountain stomps away in a fury. At the ToHH, King Aerys is incensed by the KotLT and sends out men to capture the mystery knight.


I am going to double down on Pretty Pig's interpretation in case you didn’t catch all of it. The man slender as a reed is Howland, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. Howland is “dressed” and “cloaked” or rather his consciousness had slipped into Lyanna. The twining black vines and the blue forget-me-nots indicate a joined connection, or rather an instance of consensual skinchanging. Could it be any clearer that “the slender reed riding the grey mare” means that Howland rode inside Lyanna similar to how Bran skinchanged Hodor? The grey represents House Stark and the the girl who loved blue flowers, who was so good on horseback that she was called a centaur, was the host. Bran took over Hodor's physical body, but I believe Howland's and Lyanna's joining was more cooperative in nature - they were entwined. She wasn't afraid like Hodor, and was able to do what she was good at: ride and direct the horse. Howland got to help steady the lance and face the three knights who's squires had insulted him.
 

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@Melifeather Thought this through a bit more and you sparked a few new ideas. But note that it says as slender AS a reed. To me that implies a similarity in body builds, but not the SAME person. In other words, NOT a Reed, but a pseudo Reed.

I’d like to give a reminder here that we do not know much about Ned’s build other than that he is more slight than his brother Brandon. As we have discussed before GRRM usually has a reason for hiding information and He does here too. I think that the twining may very well be a joining. Most probably, though more of a sexual nature. Gregor is using a black horse and unadorned armor IIRC.  And Loras a white one. Where do we see another silver horse with a fiery blue mane? Danny. 

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35 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

@Melifeather Thought this through a bit more and you sparked a few new ideas. But note that it says as slender AS a reed. To me that implies a similarity in body builds, but not the SAME person. In other words, NOT a Reed, but a pseudo Reed.

I’d like to give a reminder here that we do not know much about Ned’s build other than that he is more slight than his brother Brandon. As we have discussed before GRRM usually has a reason for hiding information and He does here too. I think that the twining may very well be a joining. Most probably, though more of a sexual nature. Gregor is using a black horse and unadorned armor IIRC.  And Loras a white one. Where do we see another silver horse with a fiery blue mane? Danny. 

Interpretation is in the eye of the beholder! As I said in my other post in response to Corbon, when Ned sees Jon's face in his mind, if you think Lyanna is his mother you make the connection to her, but if you think Jon's father is Ned then the connection goes there. The context can completely change!

The slender as a reed description was being applied to Loras, so yes, Loras is not Howland - he's "like" Howland riding on that fancy mare.

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Whether you believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, or Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara, etc, etc, different people can read the same passage and draw a completely different conclusion, because the context has changed. I find this little writing magic trick really remarkable, and its how GRRM misleads readers while hiding clues in plain sight.

Edited by Melifeather

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17 hours ago, corbon said:

Lyanna is never mentioned as a subject of his dreams. There is just the one set of dreams mentioned as "dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises." which I think we probably all agree is about Lyanna, even though she isn't mentioned. I think 'blood and broken promises' is itself a link to the ToJ via Lyanna's bed of blood (part of his ToJ dream title), and promises he made (and some he broke) to Lyanna in her bed of blood.

Yes, it's  link to Lyanna and promises that Ned made to her presumably about Jon and not necessarily specific to Lyanna herself.  Dark dreams, disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.  Ned has failed Lyanna and Jon in some way.  Jon has been sent to the Wall where he is in the most jeopardy.  Certainly at the end of DwD when his blood is spilled on the snow.

So those  words are echoed in Bran's extraordinary dream of speaking to his father's ghost.  Something about Jon, something so disturbing that Bran is brought to Ned's ghost by the crow to impart some knowledge about Jon.

We've been told in an SSM somewhere that GRRM will be taking Jon down dark paths in the next book.  That can be taken in a number of ways.  But what I think this really refers to the Heart of Darkness.    I think this has a connection to Bran's coma dream as well:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

So the potential for Jon to become he heart of winter, the lord of darkness and the soul of ice.  That would be disturbing, no?

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"The war?" asked Davos.

"The war," she affirmed. "There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R'hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light." She clasped the bars of his cell with her slender white hands. The great ruby at her throat seemed to pulse with its own radiance. "So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly—does your heart burn with the shining light of R'hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?" She reached through the bars and laid three fingers upon his breast, as if to feel the truth of him through flesh and wool and leather.

We don't know much about what Lyanna specifically said to Ned.  We can surmise that she is asking Ned for security and anonymity.  But she herself was close to death; what else might she have said to Ned concerning Jon.  Did she know something about prophecy; did she receive weirwood dreams herself?  We'll find out when Meera finally tells her sad tale.

But I think it's worth keeping in mind that GRRM himself has planted the notion that sometimes the future is laid bare when a body is close to death:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

"He is eight. And not robust. But such a good boy, so bright and clever. He will be a great man, Alayne. The seed is strong, my lord husband said before he died. His last words. The gods sometimes let us glimpse the future as we lay dying. I see no reason why you should not be wed as soon as we know that your Lannister husband is dead. A secret wedding, to be sure. The Lord of the Eyrie could scarcely be thought to have married a bastard, that would not be fitting. The ravens should bring us the word from King's Landing once the Imp's head rolls. You and Robert can be wed the next day, won't that be joyous? It will be good for him to have a little companion. He played with Vardis Egen's boy when we first returned to the Eyrie, and my steward's sons as well, but they were much too rough and I had no choice but to send them away. Do you read well, Alayne?"

Of course he gives these words to a complete nutter; but I think the same applies for fever dreams.

This is complete speculation of course but since we are viewing such things through the lens of ice and fire and Ned's old dream;  it requires a shift in perspective and some extrapolation about what might be true or how it could be true.

To go to the flavor of Ned's dream,  here is Jojen's green dream:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran V

"The sea?"

"I dreamed that the sea was lapping all around Winterfell. I saw black waves crashing against the gates and towers, and then the salt water came flowing over the walls and filled the castle. Drowned men were floating in the yard. When I first dreamed the dream, back at Greywater, I didn't know their faces, but now I do. That Alebelly is one, the guard who called our names at the feast. Your septon's another. Your smith as well."

"Mikken?" Bran was as confused as he was dismayed. "But the sea is hundreds and hundreds of leagues away, and Winterfell's walls are so high the water couldn't get in even if it did come."

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=green+dream&scope[]=acok&povs[]=Bran

I'll just refer to this search for other quotes.  The main features are that green dreams are hard to interpret, they are true dreams sent by the gods as a warning and they can't be changed.

So Ned's old dream of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals is similar in it's features to Jojen's green dream.  The meaning of which seems more obvious later in the series.  Blood-streaked sky = red comet, blue eyes of death = wights and white walkers.  We certainly know this is coming true shortly after Ned's death.

As for Ned not thinking that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.  I'm going with a very obscure reference.  I'm reminded of Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn't bark (because he knew the murderer) and that sometimes the clue is what has been omitted.  Everyone refers to the crown of roses for the queen of love and beauty, except Ned.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XV

Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

 

It isn't the queen of love and beauty but the queen of beauty.  So I take that to mean that Ned doesn't believe it had anything to do with love.    

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21 minutes ago, LynnS said:

So Ned's old dream of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals is similar in it's features to Jojen's green dream.  The meaning of which seems more obvious later in the series.  Blood-streaked sky = red comet, blue eyes of death = wights and white walkers.  We certainly know this is coming true shortly after Ned's death.

We've discussed the similarities between the six Stark kid's direwolves and the six white walkers before. And how Ned was forced to kill Lady, while Sam, who parallels Ned in many other ways too, kills Ser Puddles. You've noted the connection to the storm of petals and the blue eyes of death, and last night I stumbled quite by accident upon the death of Jory and how it brought to mind how the white walkers surrounded Waymar and stabbed him to death. Recall the story of the Last Hero. It's said that first his horse died and then his dog, and then his sword broke. Apply that to poor Rory. The Lannister men cut the legs off of his horse! I don't know if there's a parallel for "his dog", but Ned's calf-bone broke. I think you are right that the fever dream has elements of the danger coming out of the north.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

...Bran's extraordinary dream of speaking to his father's ghost.  Something about Jon, something so disturbing that Bran is brought to Ned's ghost by the crow to impart some knowledge about Jon.

We've been told in an SSM somewhere that GRRM will be taking Jon down dark paths in the next book.  That can be taken in a number of ways.  But what I think this really refers to the Heart of Darkness.    I think this has a connection to Bran's coma dream as well:

So the potential for Jon to become he heart of winter, the lord of darkness and the soul of ice.  That would be disturbing, no?

...We don't know much about what Lyanna specifically said to Ned.  We can surmise that she is asking Ned for security and anonymity.  But she herself was close to death; what else might she have said to Ned concerning Jon.  Did she know something about prophecy; did she receive weirwood dreams herself? 

 

Disturbing indeed and this shadows my own thinking. Lord Eddard thinks of broken promises, so what might they be? Lord Eddard has raised Jon as his son, nurtured him, concealed his identity and ultimately protected him. Unless the promise was to proclaim him the Targaryen heir raise his banners and storm King's Landing, its a bit hard to see what more he could have done and where broken promises come into the story, unless...

Unless that is we ditch the R+L=J narrative of star-crossed lovers and look to a more sinister interpretation in which Rhaegar, intent on raising dragons did indeed abduct and rape Lyanna in order [to coin a phrase] "cook up a drug deal" to produce a monster, who must be destroyed before he destroys the world - a promise Lord Eddard has been unable to bring himself to keep

Edited by Black Crow

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28 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Disturbing indeed and this shadows my own thinking. Lord Eddard thinks of broken promises, so what might they be? Lord Eddard has raised Jon as his son, nurtured him, concealed his identity and ultimately protected him. Unless the promise was to proclaim him the Targaryen heir raise his banners and storm King's Landing, its a bit hard to see what more he could have done and where broken promises come into the story, unless...

Unless that is we ditch the R+L=J narrative of star-crossed lovers and look to a more sinister interpretation in which Rhaegar, intent on raising dragons did indeed abduct and rape Lyanna in order [to coin a phrase] "cook up a drug deal" to produce a monster, who must be destroyed before he destroys the world - a promise Lord Eddard has been unable to bring himself to keep

I have wondered a bit lately whether Lyanna may have actually made Ned promise to kill Jon...

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48 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Unless that is we ditch the R+L=J narrative of star-crossed lovers and look to a more sinister interpretation in which Rhaegar, intent on raising dragons did indeed abduct and rape Lyanna in order [to coin a phrase] "cook up a drug deal" to produce a monster, who must be destroyed before he destroys the world - a promise Lord Eddard has been unable to bring himself to keep

Oh!  I didn't see that coming.  LOL.  I just can't get my head around Rhaegar being that cruel and malicious.  To my mind he already thinks he's produced the prince who is promised.  And I think the third head is Dany, Rhaegar's daughter by Ashera.  But I sure wouldn't put it past Aerys to rape Lyanna and use her in some scheme to hatch dragons.  Considering how he got his hands on Richard and Brandon, that he wanted Ned; I could well imagine that wanted to get his talons on Lyanna as well.  Maybe Rhaegar is the good guy in this scenario. 

Killing your unborn child seems to be part of that formula; if we go by Dany and Euron (Foresaken Chapter).  I can see Rhaegar getting Lyanna out of Kingslanding (perhaps with Varys' help) and turning her over to Arthur Dayne's protection at Starfall.

Edited by LynnS

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4 minutes ago, Travis said:

I have wondered a bit lately whether Lyanna may have actually made Ned promise to kill Jon...

Or perhaps to kill Jon under certain conditions.

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The slender as a reed description was being applied to Loras, so yes, Loras is not Howland - he's "like" Howland riding on that fancy mare.

No. Loras was as slim as his horse. It was tTKotLT that was as slender as a Reed. So Loras is as slim as the KotLT is Reed-like. 

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31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

[to coin a phrase] "cook up a drug deal" to produce a monster,

Har! :laugh:

31 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Disturbing indeed and this shadows my own thinking. Lord Eddard thinks of broken promises, so what might they be? Lord Eddard has raised Jon as his son, nurtured him, concealed his identity and ultimately protected him. Unless the promise was to proclaim him the Targaryen heir raise his banners and storm King's Landing, its a bit hard to see what more he could have done and where broken promises come into the story, unless...

When Ned slept he had dark and disturbing dreams, but when Bran told Luwin that he dreamed he spoke to his father in the crypts, he only reported that, "He was sad." When Luwin asked him why, Bran said, "It was something to do about Jon, I think." Being "sad" is very different than "dark and disturbing". Again, I think interpretation is influenced by personal beliefs and context, and since I think Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents, I think Ned is regretting not telling Jon who his mother was before he left for Kings Landing. Ned thought that there would be time, but he's beginning to realize that he may never see the rest of his family again.

IMO there would be no reason for Ned to hide the identity of Jon's mother from his own family if she were Lyanna. I have a hard time believing anyone in his immediate family would let that secret slip. But if Jon's mother were Ashara and Ned was protecting her honor, it would be difficult to reveal that without exposing her shame and explaining where she is now. I guess he could repeat the lie that she jumped from the Palestone Tower, but if Ned decided to reveal Ashara as Jon's mother, I think he'd tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

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9 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

No. Loras was as slim as his horse. It was tTKotLT that was as slender as a Reed. So Loras is as slim as the KotLT is Reed-like. 

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard VII

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa's fervent whisper, "Oh, he's so beautiful." Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy's shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape.

His courser was as slim as her rider, a beautiful grey mare, built for speed. Ser Gregor's huge stallion trumpeted as he caught her scent. The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. "Father, don't let Ser Gregor hurt him," she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well.

 

It was a quote. I just neglected to put it into quotes the first time around.

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2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Whether you believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, or Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Ned and Ashara, etc, etc, different people can read the same passage and draw a completely different conclusion, because the context has changed. I find this little writing magic trick really remarkable, and its how GRRM misleads readers while hiding clues in plain sight.

I do agree with this. And funnily enough one thing that I did pick up on reading through these threads this time is that it almost appears that GRRM seems to change direction with the clues he gives in each successive book. GoT throws out back up evidence for various parents forJon. If we move onto ACoK the focus shifts to a different set of characters. New information gets added and yet another possible combination shows up. The more characters perspectives that are considered the more possibilities seem to emerge. Luckily at this point GRRM has promised to not add any additional perspectives and as he continues the available evidence is reduced. Eventually there should only be one option left. At that point it’s up to the reader to decide if that is the correct answer or if GRRM is just pulling answers from nowhere. Something he has shown himself as unlikely to do. 

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36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh!  I didn't see that coming.  LOL.  I just can't get my head around Rhaegar being that cruel and malicious.  To my mind he already thinks he's produced the prince who is promised.  And I think the third head is Dany, Rhaegar's daughter by Ashera.  But I sure wouldn't put it past Aerys to rape Lyanna and use her in some scheme to hatch dragons.  Considering how he got his hands on Richard and Brandon, that he wanted Ned; I could well imagine that wanted to get his talons on Lyanna as well.  Maybe Rhaegar is the good guy in this scenario. 

Killing your unborn child seems to be part of that formula; if we go by Dany and Euron (Foresaken Chapter).  I can see Rhaegar getting Lyanna out of Kingslanding (perhaps with Varys' help) and turning her over to Arthur Dayne's protection at Starfall.

People do things all of the time that you don’t see coming. And everyone makes different choices based upon their own perspective and/or priorities at the time. Some choices can be much more difficult to make than many realize. For example, how does one choose between oneself and ones own child when different things are best for each? It all depends on what it is that that person values the most at that point in time. If it’s the child, they might act one way as that is what is best for them. If it’s themself then the choice may be different as well.
 

Although IMHO, when you come up with two such diametrically opposed needs and required courses of action, finding some form of compromise might be the only course of action available to ensure that everyone’s needs are met in the best possible way. Going too far in either direction becomes a detriment to one side or the other that might not be necessary if the time is taken to observe the bigger picture. Sometimes it pays to keep an open mind. 

Edited by Lady Dyanna
Clarification and typos

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