Heresy 228 and one over the eight

[Melifeather]

49 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Was there something about the action of crowning Lyanna that would have produced the same reaction as Loras’s expensive armor?

I had to return to this, because I missed this part of your question.

Loras's armor was described as a suit of "fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen." By definition the word "sheen" means his armor had a lustrous surface, and it was bright and shiny. So bright as to be blinding. What else is so bright it blinds? Answer: lightning. 

There are 89 references to lightning in the books. Waymar's broken sword was described as "splintered and twisted" as if struck by lightning. Old Nan told Bran stories about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck by lightning. The tallest watchtower in Winterfell was struck by lightning, and was the same tower Jaime pushed Bran from. The wooden staircase up the side of the Wall switched back and forth like a lightning bolt. Beric Dondarrion, who seems to echo Bloodraven, is called the Lightning Lord. There are many more instances/examples of lightning, but IMO all of the lightning imagery is a metaphor for magic. 

Circling back to Loras's fabulous armor, I think it's meant to imply that what happened at Harrenhal with the Knight of the Laughing Tree was an act of magic.

[Lady Dyanna]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I had to return to this, because I missed this part of your question.

Loras's armor was described as a suit of "fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen." By definition the word "sheen" means his armor had a lustrous surface, and it was bright and shiny. So bright as to be blinding. What else is so bright it blinds? Answer: lightning. 

There are 89 references to lightning in the books. Waymar's broken sword was described as "splintered and twisted" as if struck by lightning. Old Nan told Bran stories about a bad little boy who climbed too high and was struck by lightning. The tallest watchtower in Winterfell was struck by lightning, and was the same tower Jaime pushed Bran from. The wooden staircase up the side of the Wall switched back and forth like a lightning bolt. Beric Dondarrion, who seems to echo Bloodraven, is called the Lightning Lord. There are many more instances/examples of lightning, but IMO all of the lightning imagery is a metaphor for magic. 

Circling back to Loras's fabulous armor, I think it's meant to imply that what happened at Harrenhal with the Knight of the Laughing Tree was an act of magic.

Ok then. Certainly it’s a possibility, but it feels to me as if you are trying to twist yourself into a pretzel in order to accommodate real world constructs instead of taking a look at the content already provided within the books themselves. Off of the top of my head I can think of at least one thing that is bright enough to blind, and that is lightbringer. As far as shiny lustrous armor I see more of a connection to the description of the ww than to lightning. I think that either are a possibility. But since with Loras we are looking at his armor it seems we might want to compare apples to apples first, and look at various descriptions of other armor that might be relevant. 

[Lady Dyanna]

To add. I also think that lightning is something to be considered. But I see that as coming more from the 89 times it is apparently mentioned than the description that is given of the armor. And most times it seems to be about some object or person being struck by the lightning and it’s observable end result. 

[Melifeather]

10 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Ok then. Certainly it’s a possibility, but it feels to me as if you are trying to twist yourself into a pretzel in order to accommodate real world constructs instead of taking a look at the content already provided within the books themselves. Off of the top of my head I can think of at least one thing that is bright enough to blind, and that is lightbringer. As far as shiny lustrous armor I see more of a connection to the description of the ww than to lightning. I think that either are a possibility. But since with Loras we are looking at his armor it seems we might want to compare apples to apples first, and look at various descriptions of other armor that might be relevant. 

It could be in reference to Lightbringer too, but wouldn't the comet be considered magical too as well as the existence of white walkers?

[Melifeather]

The staircase going up the side of the Wall in the zigzag appearance of a lightning bolt is a very "striking" image. (Har!) There are other times where the lightning bolt seems innocuous. In the Cat of the Canals chapter the Sealord's Palace has a lightning bolt at the top of the highest tower. I've just pointed out up thread that Winterfell's tallest tower was hit by lightning. I'm not the only reader that has noticed the language used to describe the land beyond the Wall as a great northern sea - not to mention Patchface's little ditties about fish. So if the north is a sea, then the Sealord's Palace might be a reference to Winterfell. It seems like the lightning bolt on the Sealord's palace might be an indication that Winterfell has been struck by magic.

Lightning is destructive, and what has befallen House Stark is no less so. 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ah well, that's the point. A common theme that runs all the way through the book is that of unintended consequences. I don't think we're talking about deliberate cruelty.

Well Lyanna was afeared of something, but I'm stumped.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father." He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. "I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was … fond of flowers."

 

 

[Lady Dyanna]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

It could be in reference to Lightbringer too, but wouldn't the comet be considered magical too as well as the existence of white walkers?

I don’t believe that a comet is inherently magical. Otherwise we would have evidence of magic in the world around us. Pretty sure that we have comets in outer space irl too. 

I do agree on the ww and wights as well. In fact I actually used that very fact to show @Lord Aegon The Compromiser that magic does in fact exist and is able to be observed as early as the prologue. 

[Lady Dyanna]

53 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well Lyanna was afeared of something, but I'm stumped.

 

I think I’m with you there. It’s possible to be afraid of many things, both logical and illogical, but nobody else knows the answer to that question other than Lyanna, and she can’t tell us. And even if she could, how does the reader know that she can be trusted to answer truthfully. 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

You seem to see Lyanna as more empty-headed than I do, or most people would.

Not at all, I think you are misunderstanding.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Just to continue the parallel I began earlier, imagine that in 1996 -- before there was any Lewinsky scandal -- Bill Clinton went on national TV, pointed to Monica with a phallic object a dozen feet long, and said "You're much hotter than my wife Hillary."

Crowning the queen of love and beauty can be declaring "you're the hottest", but it doesn't have to be. Its also honouring someone, for any reason. Your parallel is a little too blunt. And lacks the extra interplay behind the scenes.
Imagine Monica had just secured Bill a $50m donation. And he said "you're the greatest". Its a bit more ambiguous, especially to her, now.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

In this situation, are we seriously to believe Monica would be unaware of the political relevance?  Or that Lyanna would be, at Harrenhal?

Lyanna, of all people, understands the why, or might be able to guess correctly if Rhaegar had not already spoken to her privately.
He was instructed to find the KotLT after all. And its not actually all that hard for an intelligent investigator to figure out who it was. Rhaegar needed only to question the three squires about what had happened to them at the tourney so far, to figure it out. He may or may not have actually confronted here.

And she's a 14yr old tomboy with wolf blood remember. Smart, yes. But given her actions as KotLT, I think the poltical ramifications might be secondary in her thoughts, at least initially.

7 hours ago, JNR said:

Lyanna is after all the same girl who, when offered the "honour" of marrying the lord of the stormlands, scoffed that he had sired a bastard... and correctly predicted that Robert would continue to cheat on her or any wife after he got married, because love can't change a man's nature.

So she was no fool.  She understood the world around her quite well, which is why I think her smile died too, and the canonical text is spot-on.

I agree. I just think there's even more going on which you are ignoring. And I think balancing all that, we shouldn't be sure her smile died.

And, I think that some smiles not dying (for various reasons, is not actually counter to the canonical text. It is, as I said, a metaphoric phrase. For pure precision, there are other phrases that would be better used, such as "every smile died."

I bet Rhaegar's smile didn't die. 

[corbon]

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

If you strip it down to the basics, there are elements that are the same. 

In the fever dream Ned and his men are seven against three Kingsguard.

In the encounter with Jaime, Ned, Jory, and Wyl are three men against Jaime's twenty.

In the fever dream Ned's men are wraiths.

In the encounter with Jaime, the Lannister men are red phantoms.

In the fever dream Ned and the Kingsguard talk about all the places Ned expected to see them. No mention is ever made of Lyanna, but her relationship to Ned is that she's his sister, and she had been taken hostage.

In the encounter with Jaime, they discuss the reason for the attack: Jaime's brother Tyrion was taken hostage.

In the fever dream, Ned sees the Red Mountains at the Kingsguard's back.

In the encounter with Jaime, Ned sees the Red Keep turn red with blood.

If you strip anything down the right way, you can find elements the same.
I don't know if anyone else recalls the Arbor Gold theory? The argument was that is you examined the conversations where Arbor Gold was present, you could find a betrayal or lie present in a very high percentage, like 89% or something. Therefore the presence of Arbor Gold in a scene was a clue from GRRM to the readers that there was deception happening.
Problem for me was two-fold. First, when the %age breakdown was listed, some of the 'lies' were so tenuous that it wasn't really reasonable to actually call them lies in my opinion. Second, Arbor gold only really comes out (in scenes we see) when you have two rich and/or noble people meeting, usually each playing their own hand for their own ends in various games, including the game of thrones. Deception of some kind should seriously be the default at a 90% plus level, regardless of what wine was present!

Thats what I see here. If you have to twist parallels that deep, then its confirmation bias. Your creating them, not finding them. In my opinion. 7vs 3 does not parallel 20 vs 4 for example, or event twenty vs 3 after Ned sent Littlefinger to get help. There's no parallels in the results of the fight, in the dialogue, in anything significant except a few very vague peripheral similarities requiring some twisting,

 

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

 

I wasn't trying to quote the entire chapter verbatim. I tried condensing whenever possible.

Well, that was a particularly bad condensing, because it removed the context which was against your argument and made it look like an independent thought.

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I might point out that interpretation varies according to who you think Jon Snow's parents are. If you believe Lyanna is Jon's mother, then of course you would think Ned promised her that he'd take care of her bastard. But if you're like me and believe Ned is Jon's father, then he's comparing his own actions and honor to Robert's lack of honor. Ned kept his vows, but raised his own bastard. The promises he made to Lyanna were a separate matter all together.

But he's explicitly comparing to the promises he made Lyanna, something you conveniently condensed out and then argued away from.

7 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Barra's mother didn't plead. It was more of a kind request. She said if Ned saw the king, tell him the baby is beautiful, that she has remained faithful and has had no other man since. If you believe, like me, that Lyanna died of a sword wound, Barra's mother's words seem to indicate that Lyanna remained a faithful to Robert - that she has not had any other man.

She did plead. "Tell him ... tell him.. won't you?"
its clear she is pleading for help, for the child's future. Ned can hear this, even if you refuse to, for his answer is not just that he will tell the king, but that Barra will not go wanting.

I know you won't agree at all. I agree that we do all read with our own biases. I think some do a better job than others against that.
Having to leave out or argue away explicit text is an indicator of more bias, rather than less I think. The more the text agrees with an argument the less the interpretive bias is.  

[corbon]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yes, it's  link to Lyanna and promises that Ned made to her presumably about Jon and not necessarily specific to Lyanna herself.  Dark dreams, disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises.  Ned has failed Lyanna and Jon in some way.  Jon has been sent to the Wall where he is in the most jeopardy.  Certainly at the end of DwD when his blood is spilled on the snow.

 

Sorry. I tend to look at a discussion/argument (a theory or idea being the first side put forth in an argument, which is not necessarily combative but an attempt to bounce ideas of each other and test them for validity) and think, "yes, ok, continue", or "no, thats not right, don't continue this line because the foundation is flawed". Not exactly thinking like that but thats the sort of effect. Its why I tend to jump on what I perceive as 'wrongness' in an argument. Not to score points or prove I know better (indeed, I make my own mistakes) or attack the other person, but because a flawed foundation means a flawed theory. In fact, thats kinda my biggest criticism of much of heresy. Because its an ideas place (and often the offbeat ideas), people jump on and run with ideas without examining the root strongly enough to see if it stands up. That has its place as well, allowing creativity to flourish, but it has its risks too.

My point really (if I can remember it correctly now, and I'm short on time to research properly so sorry if I've got this messed up) was that you were saying something about Ned having dreams about Lyanna that were not connected to the ToJ, but the only other dream I could find was this one - which is connected to the ToJ by the beds of blood reference, which is in Ned's dream-title.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

To go to the flavor of Ned's dream,  here is Jojen's green dream:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=green+dream&scope[]=acok&povs[]=Bran

Cool. I found a different quote and thought it was the only reference. As I said, I make mistakes too.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'll just refer to this search for other quotes.  The main features are that green [many] dreams are hard to interpret, they [green dreams] are true dreams sent by the gods as a warning and they can't be changed.

There, fixed that for you. 

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

So Ned's old dream of a blood-streaked sky and a storm of petals is similar in it's features to Jojen's green dream.  The meaning of which seems more obvious later in the series.  Blood-streaked sky = red comet, blue eyes of death = wights and white walkers.  We certainly know this is coming true shortly after Ned's death.

Err, still no. Leaving aside my fixing your statement, Ned's dream clearly has been changed (the faces being lost, probably the symbolic stuff, Vayon Poole's voice and interruption) and clearly wasn't sent in that form by the Old Gods as it is clearly, at least in part, a recognisable Old Dream based on memories.

So by your own definitions there aren't any real similarities between Ned's dream and a green dream.

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

As for Ned not thinking that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.  I'm going with a very obscure reference.  I'm reminded of Sherlock Holmes and the dog that didn't bark (because he knew the murderer) and that sometimes the clue is what has been omitted.  Everyone refers to the crown of roses for the queen of love and beauty, except Ned.

It isn't the queen of love and beauty but the queen of beauty.  So I take that to mean that Ned doesn't believe it had anything to do with love.    

ok, thanks for explaining, I understand now. I personally think its too thin to say what you say it does, but you do have evidence to support your idea.

[corbon]

13 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Disturbing indeed and this shadows my own thinking. Lord Eddard thinks of broken promises, so what might they be? Lord Eddard has raised Jon as his son, nurtured him, concealed his identity and ultimately protected him. Unless the promise was to proclaim him the Targaryen heir raise his banners and storm King's Landing, its a bit hard to see what more he could have done and where broken promises come into the story, unless...

Thats rather over-egging the problem. Just letting Jon know who he is (who is parents were) would be enough, and a far more reasonable thing for a dying Lyanna to be concerned about than "Make him King".

[corbon]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

It strikes me that Aerys was very suspicious of Rhaegar plotting behind his back and so chose to attend the tourney at Harrenhal.  Is it possible that he ordered Rhaegar to give the crown of roses to Lyanna, in order to discredit Rhaegar and throw a spanner into whatever alliances were being formed?  

Thats rather unlikely. Its doubtful anyone knew, or even expected, Rhaegar to actually enter or win. I don;t think its something that can be effectively planned in advance. Note that even when that thing was tried, in a far far more controlled environment, it failed miserably.

[corbon]

11 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There may not be a Night’s King per se. I’m pretty sure that there’s no evidence to point directly to that idea. But unless I’ve completely lost my mind, entirely possible, With his own eyes Wil is witness to both white walkers and wights, the battle between several ww and another character, the aftermath of that battle and the conversion of a dead Waymar Royce into a wight. And that’s just the prologue of the first book. 

Oh yes. the WW and their wights are definitely a thing. I just think the whole Nights King Story sounds like so much #fakenews put about as propaganda by the enemies of a perfectly normal human Lord Commander  who went rogue (or his enemies were the rogues), and the enemies won, turning their propaganda into 'history' which became myth/legend.
And I'm not 'convinced thats the case', its just where I stand on a balance of probabilities sort of thing.

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, corbon said:

So by your own definitions there aren't any real similarities between Ned's dream and a green dream.

Wrong.  By your definition, Ned's dream of blood-streaked sky, storm of petals is not a green dream.  It is by my definition and by Jojen's example. I'll stand by it.  

[corbon]

 

12 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Only in your own mind. How would any of the rest of us ever know?  If you don’t share ideas, no matter how mundane or far fetched they are it takes away the opportunity from others to consider a different perspective.

Ideas? What ideas?  Usually mine aren't really articulated even to myself until I need to explain them to someone. I work better analyzing and adapting others ideas than generating original ones.

Quote

And to be perfectly honest I don’t see any evidence that the old gods had anything to do with those dire wolf pups. I see a rarely seen animal that just so happened to manage to give birth and was killed by an antler stuck in its neck. Where does that connect to the old gods. For all we know the Starks are even crazier than the Targaryens. 

A rarely seen (thought to be locally extinct) animal that is the sigil of the local ruling house. 
That is clearly dead as the result of a fight with the sigil of the King? The King that in the very next chapter we find out is coming to visit?
That has living pups that exactly match the ruling family's children, down to the outsider extra?

Nah, thats outside interference by someone or something. Old Gods seems most likely to me, given the Stark history and allegiances and the fact that they are direwolves - perhaps through Bloodraven.

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well Lyanna was afeared of something, but I'm stumped.

Jon not being given a life at all seems a pretty obvious possibility. Given the deaths of Aegon and Rhaenys, and where Ned's allegiance lies.

 

[corbon]

3 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wrong.  By your definition, Ned's dream of blood-streaked sky, storm of petals is not a green dream.  It is by my definition and by Jojen's example. I'll stand by it.  

You said they must be true dreams, sent by the gods, and can't be changed.
This dream of Ned's clearly originates within his own memories, not sent by the gods, and has changed. 

So by your definition, its not.

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats rather unlikely. Its doubtful anyone knew, or even expected, Rhaegar to actually enter or win. I don;t think its something that can be effectively planned in advance. Note that even when that thing was tried, in a far far more controlled environment, it failed miserably.

It is by far, the simplest, straight forward and  logical explanation. It doesn't have to be planned in advance.  It just requires Aerys to take advantage of the situation as it presents itself.

[corbon]

Just now, LynnS said:

It is by far, the simplest, straight forward and  logical explanation. It doesn't have to be planned in advance.  It just requires Aerys to take advantage of the situation as it presents itself.

Surely, by the far the simplest, most straight forward and logical explanation is that Rhaegar did it on his own, as a reward for her KotLT exploits? Not so much the QoLaB but the anonymous Queen of Justice, Courage and Honour.
Thats extremely simple. 
Thats extremely straight forward.
Thats extremely logical.

The only issue comes afterwards, and thats the made up 'politics' one. Sure, "all the smiles died". But nothing actually happened as a result, did it - for all the hoo-hah we give it here.

When would Aerys have a chance to pressure Rhaegar, and why would Rhaegar agree? Its not something Aerys could enforce, nor something he could hold over Rhaegar.
That seems neither simple, straight forward, nor logical to me, let alone 'by far the mostest' of these things.

[LynnS]

Just now, corbon said:

You said they must be true dreams, sent by the gods, and can't be changed.
This dream of Ned's clearly originates within his own memories, not sent by the gods, and has changed. 

So by your definition, its not.

Again, that's your definition, not mine.  The Old dream is a true dream:  the comet and the wights/white walkers have appeared.  Do you deny this?  The dream is not something that he has experienced in real life, so it is not a memory per se.  Do you deny this?   It's something that will occur in the future.  Do you deny this?  The old dream specifically hasn't changed.   Other memories become attached to it and they aren't random memories but related to the warning.

Of course it's sent by the gods or Bloodraven; whatever it is that intrudes on dreams.