ASoIaF and LotR parallels

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/23/2019 at 4:29 PM, Ygrain said:

Catelyn's "it should have been you" is a parallel of Denethor hurling into Faramir's face that he wishes him dead instead of Boromir.

good catch. But personality-wise Stannis is Denethor

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/22/2019 at 2:13 AM, Lord Varys said:

Aragorn has no development at all in the story.

Agreed. But Aragorn is not the hero of the story. The Hobbits are. In fact, we do not have access (iirc) to any of the internal thoughts and feelings of other characters, except the Hobbits (well the books are based on what the hobbits "wrote"). All development that Aragorn went through happened before the timeline.

Quote

He just the hidden king lacking royal garments from the start (healing hands included which are a defining factor in English royal tradition) who has to go through the motions and help destroy the Ring so his foster father gives him the trophy wife he covets. He didn't have to go through Moria or deal with some Orcs in Rohan to be demand the throne of Gondor as his right

Here, I disagree, the war needed to be won to claim the throne and be accepted as a King. Remember, before the timeline he fought for Rohan and Gondor and (iirc) even won some fame that made Denethor jealous, and he didn't try to claim the throne there and then.

Anyway, @Aldarion too, there are Aragorn vibes in several characters: Viserys, Daenerys, Jon and Aegon. In fact, GRRM is discussing Aragorn through all these characters. Even Stannis may be also fit here. He has rejected the easy way (burning Edric Storm, "the ring!") to get the throne.

[Jon The Dragon]

Reek - Gollum. Desire for power or material things corrupts, transforms and destroys the person before a possible later redemption

[rotting sea cow]

47 minutes ago, Jonthedragon said:

Reek - Gollum. Desire for power or material things corrupts, transforms and destroys the person before a possible later redemption

Oh yeah, there are Gollum vibes in Reek-Theon.

[Jon The Dragon]

Maybe Theon kills Euron to go full Gollum

[Aldarion]

Valyria is a parallel of Numenor:

1) Both are Old Age superpowers which waged massive wars against rivals to the east of them - Mordor and Old Ghis - and were generally successful. But due to not putting full effort into the wars as well as the enemy underestimating them, there were in both cases several wars before said enemies were finally vanquished.

2) Both were destroyed in a massive cataclysm, leaving behind multiple successor kingdoms (Arnor and Gondor; Seven Kingdoms and multiple colonies)

3) Valyrian Dragonstone seems to have properties similar to stone of Orthanc and Orthram(?) (outer wall of Minas Tirith): it is black, solid and nearly indestructible.

4) Valyrian Steel is similar in some ways to the Daggers of Westernesse, being basically magical metal. Of course, there are differences as well: while Daggers of Westernesse were made specifically with Witch King in mind, I am not aware of any such purpose behind Valyrian steel weapons.

3 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Anyway, @Aldarion too, there are Aragorn vibes in several characters: Viserys, Daenerys, Jon and Aegon. In fact, GRRM is discussing Aragorn through all these characters. Even Stannis may be also fit here. He has rejected the easy way (burning Edric Storm, "the ring!") to get the throne.

Agreed. Although I am not sure Viserys would fit, as literally the only thing he has in common with Aragorn is "king in the exile". He has not received education (unlike Jon and Aegon), has not achieved anything on his own (unlike Jon and Daenerys), he has never led an army (unlike Daenerys, Jon and Aegon), let alone actually commanded one (like Jon and Daenerys did).

I really hope that GRRM was not trying to pull a parallel between burning Edric Storm and burning The One Ring - two things have nothing in common. Burning Edric Storm was an attempt to get dragons from stone, based solely on Mel's visions. Burning One Ring was strategic necessity, as there was no other way to win, and it was based not on visions but on history, lore, and a very long discussion between some of the most learned men in Middle Earth. Burning the ring also had absolutely nothing with Aragorn claiming the throne - Aragorn claimed the throne because 1) he had legal right to it, 2) there was no other legal claimant, let alone one with equal or greater right, 3) Gondor absolutely needed it and 4) he had just saved everyone's asses - what people sometimes forget is that battle was in balance, and perhaps may still have been lost, even after Rohirrim arrived. It was only Aragorn's reinforcements which sealed the victory. The only way to pull a parallel with this would be somebody (Stannis, Aegon, Daenerys) saving everyone's asses against the Others and only then claiming the throne. But I do not think we will see that. And the only way to pull a "burning the Ring" parallel would be something akin to what show did with the Night King - although it should be noted that in LotR many of Sauron's human allies kept fighting even after his downfall, to the point that years if not decades of campaigning were necessary before Gondor and Rohan were truly secure.

[Lord Varys]

On 11/28/2019 at 12:13 PM, rotting sea cow said:

Agreed. But Aragorn is not the hero of the story. The Hobbits are. In fact, we do not have access (iirc) to any of the internal thoughts and feelings of other characters, except the Hobbits (well the books are based on what the hobbits "wrote"). All development that Aragorn went through happened before the timeline.

If there was such development it is not given in the back story. We don't know what Aragorn thought about himself before he was told who he was and what he was supposed to do, nor what kind of effect his travels had on him - his Dúnedain cousins don't seem to be that much different from him once they finally show up.

On 11/28/2019 at 12:13 PM, rotting sea cow said:

Here, I disagree, the war needed to be won to claim the throne and be accepted as a King. Remember, before the timeline he fought for Rohan and Gondor and (iirc) even won some fame that made Denethor jealous, and he didn't try to claim the throne there and then.

But the only incentive Aragorn is given to be king is the trophy wife. Elrond makes it clear that he is not going to give the hand of his daughter to some crownless orphan, never mind that he himself raised and trained said orphan. Why Aragorn thinks he should be king/wants to be king should actually be mentioned in this story. And the only reason we get simply is that he wants to marry Arwen and thus has to do what Elrond demands of him.

Why he helps to fight Sauron is also clear - that's a matter of survival. But he could afterwards just retire to the Dúnedain lands in the north.

The overall point I'm trying to make is just that Aragorn isn't really a proper character. He is just a stand-in for the concept of 'the rightful king' with no depth of his own - he never makes any serious mistakes, has no internal issues or conflicts of any kind. And the only defining feature he has is his ancestry which basically explains all his character traits and heroic deeds.

[SeanF]

On 11/21/2019 at 7:27 PM, Aldarion said:

If anything, Daenerys is a carricature of Aragorn:
1) Aragorn is obsessed with his heritage because line of Numenorean kings continued unbroken from Elros Tar-Minyatur to Ar-Pharazon, while the line of Lords of Andunie / Kings of Arnor was unbroken from Elros Tar-Minyatur to Aragorn himself (and beyond). That is a dynasty which lasted 6 318 years (3 287 years in Numenor, 3 031 years in exile by the start of the Fourth Age). And Kingship of Dunedain is seen as a duty: not just political, but also cultural, historical (as caretakers of knowledge) and religious. Unlike Daenerys, which is obsessed because... dragons? For which we do not even know for sure that they are even Targaryen privilege... Aragorn has the whole weight of history and *duty* weighting down on him. It is a burden, but one which he has chosen to carry. Daenerys is obsessed with Iron Throne, which her family has established mere 300 years ago, creating the artificial construct of Seven Kingdoms in the process.
2) Aragorn is a king in the exile, and so is Daenerys. Both lead essentially kingdoms in exile, with Aragorn being a chieftain of Dunadains (who dwell in the Triangle, which may be understood as a sort-of-kingdom-in-exile) and Daenerys having her conquests.
3) Aragorn is 87 years old, experienced in leadership and was educated in kingship in Imladris, by Elrond - who, in addition to being several thousand years old, also spent most of that time ruling one Elven kingdom or another (yes, Imladris is a kingdom). Daenerys is a newbie who pulls one trick out of hat after another.
4) Aragorn never trumps "powers of Angels incarnate". Palantiri were a gift from Valar to the house of Andunie - which means to Aragorn. Aragorn has legal right of usage of Palantiri through his heritage. Daenerys gets dragon eggs as a gift from Illyrio, and resurrects dragons through magic I am not sure she believed will work. Basically, Aragorn triumphed through legalese, Daenerys just lucked out.

 

I don't really think that Daenerys resembles any character in LOTR.  I do see a lot of resemblances between her and Ciri, in the Witcher series.

[Narsil4]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

I don't really think that Daenerys resembles any character in LOTR. 

Dany, Jon and Bran seem to have some similarities to Nienor, Turin and Brandir. 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Narsil4 said:

Dany, Jon and Bran seem to have some similarities to Nienor, Turin and Brandir. 

I see similarities between Dany and Turin.  Both have the same flaw - morbid self-criticism that eats away at their self-confidence and causes them to lose faith in themselves.  Dany's dream in which Viserys calls her "murderer, betrayer, whore" suggests at some level, that's what she thinks she is.  It reminds me a lot of the way Turin sees himself, when Glaurung casts his spell on him.

Both of them are heroic, but courage doesn't come easily to them.  They each have to face down their fears, or overcome them with fury. And that can lead them to act rashly.

[Narsil4]

3 hours ago, SeanF said:

It reminds me a lot of the way Turin sees himself, when Glaurung casts his spell on him.

Ahh, that makes sense. 

Quaithe telling Dany to remember who she is, as if she has forgotten important details about her life, strikes me as being similar to Nienor having her memory manipulated by the Father of Dragons. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Dany is in LOTR...sort of. She’d be Galadriel with the One Ring. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

She could also be Smaug, stolen cup=stolen crown. 

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/29/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

The overall point I'm trying to make is just that Aragorn isn't really a proper character. He is just a stand-in for the concept of 'the rightful king' with no depth of his own - he never makes any serious mistakes, has no internal issues or conflicts of any kind. And the only defining feature he has is his ancestry which basically explains all his character traits and heroic deeds.

Fully agree with this and I think GRRM would agree too, because he seems to be clearly interested in discussing Aragorn 'the rightful king' more than any other character in the LOTR.

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:08 PM, Aldarion said:

Valyria is a parallel of Numenor:

Yeah, Valyria is both Mordor and Numenor.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 4:08 PM, Aldarion said:

Agreed. Although I am not sure Viserys would fit, as literally the only thing he has in common with Aragorn is "king in the exile". He has not received education (unlike Jon and Aegon), has not achieved anything on his own (unlike Jon and Daenerys), he has never led an army (unlike Daenerys, Jon and Aegon), let alone actually commanded one (like Jon and Daenerys did).

Thing is, I think GRRM is discussing several 'what ifs" re: Aragorn. Because as noted in this thread, Aragorn doesn't have much interiority in LOTR. So, we can find aspects of Aragorn in several charactors.

 

On 11/28/2019 at 4:08 PM, Aldarion said:

I really hope that GRRM was not trying to pull a parallel between burning Edric Storm and burning The One Ring - two things have nothing in common. Burning Edric Storm was an attempt to get dragons from stone, based solely on Mel's visions. Burning One Ring was strategic necessity, as there was no other way to win, and it was based not on visions but on history, lore, and a very long discussion between some of the most learned men in Middle Earth. Burning the ring also had absolutely nothing with Aragorn claiming the throne - Aragorn claimed the throne because 1) he had legal right to it, 2) there was no other legal claimant, let alone one with equal or greater right, 3) Gondor absolutely needed it and 4) he had just saved everyone's asses - what people sometimes forget is that battle was in balance, and perhaps may still have been lost, even after Rohirrim arrived. It was only Aragorn's reinforcements which sealed the victory. The only way to pull a parallel with this would be somebody (Stannis, Aegon, Daenerys) saving everyone's asses against the Others and only then claiming the throne. But I do not think we will see that. And the only way to pull a "burning the Ring" parallel would be something akin to what show did with the Night King - although it should be noted that in LotR many of Sauron's human allies kept fighting even after his downfall, to the point that years if not decades of campaigning were necessary before Gondor and Rohan were truly secure.

My point there is The Ring offered an easy solution to our character woes. Just take the Ring and you will triumph. Of course the Ring will betray and destroy you in the end. The attempted burning of Edric Storm is presented as the "easy solution" for Stannis  problems. Burn one child and you will get the throne. But by burning him, he will destroy himself. So, Davos, who is in some ways an externalization of Stannis, removes that temptation from his reach and propose another solution.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Fully agree with this and I think GRRM would agree too, because he seems to be clearly interested in discussing Aragorn 'the rightful king' more than any other character in the LOTR.

Eh... In my copy of LOTR, Aragorn doubts his choices, is torn between his duty to Gondor and to Frodo, and acknowledges his mistakes. He is certainly not the most developed character ever but he is not such an empty plate you make him sound.

[rotting sea cow]

43 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Eh... In my copy of LOTR, Aragorn doubts his choices, is torn between his duty to Gondor and to Frodo, and acknowledges his mistakes. He is certainly not the most developed character ever but he is not such an empty plate you make him sound. 

He also doubt whether to use the palantir or not, but not about whether he should use the Ring and his "mistakes" are not caused by his decisions but for failing to anticipate events out of his control. Compare his reaction when he was tempted by Galadriel to Sam's one who blushed immediately.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Dany is in LOTR...sort of. She’d be Galadriel with the One Ring. 

Galadriel with the One Ring would be a vastly more powerful being than Daenerys is.  Next to the Istari, she is the most powerful sorcerer in Middle Earth.

I've always thought that Galadriel accepting Frodo's offer of the One Ring is an interesting "What if?"  She must have been very very tempted.  

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

My point there is The Ring offered an easy solution to our character woes. Just take the Ring and you will triumph. Of course the Ring will betray and destroy you in the end. The attempted burning of Edric Storm is presented as the "easy solution" for Stannis  problems. Burn one child and you will get the throne. But by burning him, he will destroy himself. So, Davos, who is in some ways an externalization of Stannis, removes that temptation from his reach and propose another solution.

Much like Daenerys and her dragons. She can choose between not using them, and doing things the hard way, or using them, easily suppressing any opposition and becoming a monster in the process.

Agreed with the One Ring, though it was not exactly 1:1. Destroying (or else using) One Ring was the only solution - conventional war was lost before it had even started. Sauron had worn down Gondor via constant attacks, plagues and disasters for 3 000 years before launching his campaign. And unlike Second Age, there was no convenient island housing a military superpower to lend aid: they were on their own. So easy solution would have been using the One Ring; destroying it was neither easy nor certain. Difference is that in both cases end result hinges on One Ring itself (though it should be noted that actually destroying the One Ring still required conventional military shaping operation to be successful); whereas by removing Edric Storm, Stannis had to find a way to triumph conventionally.

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Much like Daenerys and her dragons. She can choose between not using them, and doing things the hard way, or using them, easily suppressing any opposition and becoming a monster in the process.

Agreed with the One Ring, though it was not exactly 1:1. Destroying (or else using) One Ring was the only solution - conventional war was lost before it had even started. Sauron had worn down Gondor via constant attacks, plagues and disasters for 3 000 years before launching his campaign. And unlike Second Age, there was no convenient island housing a military superpower to lend aid: they were on their own. So easy solution would have been using the One Ring; destroying it was neither easy nor certain. Difference is that in both cases end result hinges on One Ring itself; whereas by removing Edric Storm, Stannis had to find a way to triumph conventionally.

Dany will have one out of the three dragons, and they are all still quite small (the others will go to any of Victarion, Euron, Tyrion, Jon, fAegon) .  I expect it will be the Dothraki, Ironborn, free companies, and Unsullied that give her her military power in TWOW.

Actually, using the Ring was an option.  Tolkien thought that in real life, a powerful person would certainly have used it against Sauron, albeit, over the course of several hundred years, they would become another Sauron.