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ASoIaF and LotR parallels

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If Daenerys does have a "The Ring is Mine" moment in The Winds of Winter, I think it would be through  her embracing the role of R'hllor's champion on earth.  That would give her millions of devoted followers across the East, but at the risk of unleashing a holy war across the continent.  I'm not quite sure what the  aims of the Red Priests are, but I suspect they involve burning vast numbers of unbelievers.  And, this is a world where human sacrifice is a potent form of magic.  Perhaps the burning of Kings Landing (if it is to be a thing) will be a massive sacrifice to the Red God.

Edited by SeanF

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1 hour ago, SeanF said:

 Dany will have one out of the three dragons, and they are all still quite small (the others will go to any of Victarion, Euron, Tyrion, Jon, fAegon) .  I expect it will be the Dothraki, Ironborn, free companies, and Unsullied that give her her military power in TWOW.

Actually, using the Ring was an option.  Tolkien thought that in real life, a powerful person would certainly have used it against Sauron, albeit, over the course of several hundred years, they would become another Sauron.

I agree that Dany will lose other two dragons, but that is still far in the future (especially at rate GRRM is writing at).

As I pointed out, using Ring was an option, but in both cases victory or defeat still hinge on the Ring: there is no way to win conventionally.

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7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

He also doubt whether to use the palantir or not, but not about whether he should use the Ring and his "mistakes" are not caused by his decisions but for failing to anticipate events out of his control. Compare his reaction when he was tempted by Galadriel to Sam's one who blushed immediately.

There were certainly things he couldn't anticipate but all of his leadership from Moria to Amon Hen is riddled with doubts, he doesn't know which course to take and the indecision clearly shows. Later on he doesn't handle Éowyn's attraction very well, either.  If that doesn't represent any fleshing out of the character, I don't really know what to say.

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13 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

She could also be Smaug, stolen cup=stolen crown. 

A superficial ‘parallel’ if ever i saw one, but then i find most parallels people are trying to draw between the two weak at best.

8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Galadriel with the One Ring would be a vastly more powerful being than Daenerys is.  Next to the Istari, she is the most powerful sorcerer in Middle Earth.

I've always thought that Galadriel accepting Frodo's offer of the One Ring is an interesting "What if?"  She must have been very very tempted.  

You read RBPL’s/The Marquis’ blog right? Have you read his what ifs? Fairly sure he did this one before

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4 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

A superficial ‘parallel’ if ever i saw one, but then i find most parallels people are trying to draw between the two weak at best.

You read RBPL’s/The Marquis’ blog right? Have you read his what ifs? Fairly sure he did this one before

Yes, I enjoyed the speculation.

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9 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

A superficial ‘parallel’ if ever i saw one, but then i find most parallels people are trying to draw between the two weak at be

It ain’t that far fetched. Dany thinks knights defend dragons from goods stolen from a dragon’s hoard, when really the legends are about knights killing the dragons.. Smaug would love her version. There is also a prophecy about a heroic savior who is supposed to return to Erebor to make the rivers run gold. People think that it’s happening...but then they realize it’s just Smaug setting everything on fire. This is pretty much the Azor Ahai twist in a nutshell.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It ain’t that far fetched. Dany thinks knights defend dragons from goods stolen from a dragon’s hoard, when really the legends are about knights killing the dragons.. Smaug would love her version. There is also a prophecy about a heroic savior who is supposed to return to Erebor to make the rivers run gold. People think that it’s happening before they realize it’s just Smaug setting everything on fire. This is pretty much the Azor Ahai twist.

I don't see where a stolen crown comes into it.  Such evidence as we have from the books is that Aegon is a Perkin Warbeck, and Rhaegar was still legally married to Elia, at the time of his death, so Jon is either his natural son, or the offspring of a bigamous marriage.

Dany's claim to the Iron Throne is legally sound.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I don't see where a stolen crown comes into it.  Such evidence as we have from the books is that Aegon is a Perkin Warbeck, and Rhaegar was still legally married to Elia, at the time of his death, so Jon is either his natural son, or the offspring of a bigamous marriage.

Dany's claim to the Iron Throne is legally sound.

I’m not discounting her claim, I’m saying Dany (like Viserys and Smaug and Thorin) believes her Westerosi crown was stolen and she wants it back. Surely at some point she’s going to act like Smaug reacted when he realized his treasure was stolen. Pride, hubris, and overconfidence fit Dany/Smaug quite well. Thorin could also fit, but his dying line is quite insightful, realizing the futility of it all. Very un-Dany like.

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5 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I’m not discounting her claim, I’m saying Dany (like Viserys and Smaug and Thorin) believes her Westerosi crown was stolen and she wants it back. Surely at some point she’s going to act like Smaug reacted when he realized his treasure was stolen. Pride, hubris, and overconfidence fit Dany/Smaug quite well. Thorin could also fit, but his dying line is quite insightful, realizing the futility of it all. Very un-Dany like.

I think that's a bit thin. Smaug hoards things, because he can.. He doesn't intrinsically care about them.  

Dany/Thorin is the better parallel, as each one believes they have a duty to avenge their family, and regain the lost kingdom.  But, one can draw the same parallel with any exiled royalty in literature.

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15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I think that's a bit thin. Smaug hoards things, because he can.. He doesn't intrinsically care about them.  

Dany/Thorin is the better parallel, as each one believes they have a duty to avenge their family, and regain the lost kingdom.  But, one can draw the same parallel with any exiled royalty in literature.

He cares because he believes it belongs to him.

Westeros is just a thing to Dany as well, it’s just full of pesky people she has to kill so she can take it.

Smaug was furious that a thief took what he thought was his and responded with fire and blood . . . And Dany is never doing that? Hmmmm...

Dany is a reconstructed dragon from Tolkien yet still, an antagonist, like Smaug. 

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On 11/29/2019 at 4:19 PM, Lord Varys said:

The overall point I'm trying to make is just that Aragorn isn't really a proper character. He is just a stand-in for the concept of 'the rightful king' with no depth of his own - he never makes any serious mistakes, has no internal issues or conflicts of any kind. And the only defining feature he has is his ancestry which basically explains all his character traits and heroic deeds.

You’re correct, but what I would argue for is that was at least to some degree deliberate (extent of intent can be debated) – and not in the way you think of it (I believe). LotR is not Aragorns story, as you yourself mentioned, from point of view of this particular character what transpires during LotR serves as a final act to the story. All of Aragorns supposed development happened entirely offscreen and in the past. We know for a fact what happened in his life before he met hobbits. His adventures in the North and in Gondor and Rohan, his life as Estel and as Thorongil, possible involvement in court politics during reigns of, respectively, Ecthelion II and Thengel. Aragorn enters the scene as a grown man set in his ways and focused on his goal, which is getting the throne(s) – and his reasons are at least in some way his own (we don’t get definite confirmation as to why he is doing what he is doing, it can be because of Elrond’s demands, it can be because of his sense of ultimate duty in this foretold hour). Aragorn gets no development because he got all he could have gotten already. That’s the obvious assumption one gets when reading all accessory material to LotR. It does make LotR when read by itself weaker as a narrative, but that’s another topic. Reasons for why Aragorn doesn’t get any traditionally understood character growth is the same reason why Denethor doesn’t get any, or some other characters for that matter: he doesn’t need one.

As to Aragorns traits being a part of his Númenorean heritage, and consequentially, as to Aragorn being a reflection of a racial archetype rather than a character: this can be debated. Tolkien had some strong views on Númenoreans and their racial predilections, he portrayed them as noble and transcending general human condition, but on the other hand he never shied away from condemning their darker aspects (brutal colonisers and supremacists for example). Númenorean pride doomed Númenor itself and showed its face when Isildur had a chance to destroy the Ring and failed to do so. Aragorn reflects a noble Númenorean archetype. Why? That’s unknown. He could have been properly raised by Elrond, he could have chosen that himself thanks to deliberation, he could have been born that way. We don’t know. Any strong guess, one that you make for example, shows only your personal bias towards the character.

Because of all the above I would posit, as was mentioned already by others, that the proper answer for a question How would Martin write Aragorn-type character? is Young Griff, not Daenerys.

Edited by Lessingham

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28 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He cares because he believes it belongs to him.

Westeros is just a thing to Dany as well, it’s just full of pesky people she has to kill so she can take it.

Smaug was furious that a thief took what he thought was his and responded with fire and blood . . . And Dany is never doing that? Hmmmm...

Dany is a reconstructed dragon from Tolkien yet still, an antagonist, like Smaug. 

Dany's dream is the House with the Red door and the lemon tree.  It's not the Iron Throne.  

You might just as well compare Robb Stark,  Tyrion, Stannis, Renly, and Robert to Smaug.  All of them are willing to take what they consider theirs with fire and blood.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dany's dream is the House with the Red door and the lemon tree.  It's not the Iron Throne.  

You might just as well compare Robb Stark,  Tyrion, Stannis, Renly, and Robert to Smaug.  All of them are willing to take what they consider theirs with fire and blood.

Chastened Robb Stark giving up his war in the South to recover WF in the North is pretty weak sauce, at least in vengeance/excessive pride terms. Compare that to when Dany found out The Usurper was dead. She sounded like Smaug boasting about how all his enemies were dead. Renly has nothing to do with the dragon trope in stories. Stannis touches on it, only because he thinks one would help him, but he’s willing to make sacrifices, which is more of the hero’s journey, not the dragon. Tyrion maybe, because he always wanted to see dragons, but he can’t lay waste to cities in one savage attack or turn the land into a blackened ruin all by himself like Dany can. I wouldn’t be surprised if she calls fAegon/Jon/Bilbo a thief—she’s already talking about crowns stolen from dragon hoards. Thorin was fighting for a place he actually lived in for 24 years, and for his surviving family. Thorin makes peace in the end, and conveys a moral lesson that he wasted his life. Dany isn’t yet there and I doubt she’ll have much reflection. Dany absolutely wants Westeros, in fact, Dany wants a lot of things. I would say she’s confused about what she wants, but Westeros has always been at the top. ADWD: “She wanted Westeros as much as he did...but first she must heal Meereen” (She had a chance at redemption in Meereen, to be something other than a conquering dragon, and she blew it).

Smaug is also the coolest character in the Hobbit. Your loss if you don’t want the comparison.

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25 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Chastened Robb Stark giving up his war in the South to recover WF in the North is pretty weak sauce, at least in vengeance/excessive pride terms. Compare that to when Dany found out The Usurper was dead. She sounded like Smaug boasting about how all his enemies were dead. Renly has nothing to do with the dragon trope in stories. Stannis touches on it, only because he thinks one would help him, but he’s willing to make sacrifices, which is more of the hero’s journey, not the dragon. Tyrion maybe, because he always wanted to see dragons, but he can’t lay waste to cities in one savage attack or turn the land into a blackened ruin all by himself like Dany can. I wouldn’t be surprised if she calls fAegon/Jon/Bilbo a thief—she’s already talking about crowns stolen from dragon hoards. Thorin was fighting for a place he actually lived in for 24 years, and for his surviving family. Thorin makes peace in the end, and conveys a moral lesson that he wasted his life. Dany isn’t yet there and I doubt she’ll have much reflection. Dany absolutely wants Westeros, in fact, Dany wants a lot of things. I would say she’s confused about what she wants, but Westeros has always been at the top. ADWD: “She wanted Westeros as much as he did...but first she must heal Meereen” (She had a chance at redemption in Meereen, to be something other than a conquering dragon, and she blew it).

Smaug is also the coolest character in the Hobbit. Your loss if you don’t want the comparison.

The problem is that you dislike Daenerys so much that you attribute things to her that nobody else does.

Much as Smaug amuses me, he has nothing in common with Daenerys.

Edited by SeanF

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@SeanF Why not both? Dany can both desire the house with red door and lemon tree and the Iron Throne. She still believes herself to be superior only because she is the Last Dragon. More importantly Daenerys is bound to get much darker, colder and crueler now that she finally accepted she's a conquerer and chose fire and blood. Besides GRRM agreed with a person who not only said Dany will become dark, but also likened her to one of the biggest war criminals of the 21th century. 

Edited by Elegant Woes

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9 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@SeanF Why not both? Dany can both desire the house with red door and lemon tree and the Iron Throne. She still believes herself to be superior only because she is the Last Dragon. More importantly Daenerys is bound to get much darker, colder and crueler now that she finally accepted she's a conquerer and chose fire and blood. Besides GRRM agreed with a person who not only said Dany will become dark, but also likened her to one of the biggest war criminals of the 21th century. 

I imagine her story will take a darker turn.  Any military commander has to be dark to an extent.

Which war criminal was she compared to?

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Just now, SeanF said:

I imagine her story will take a darker turn.  Any military commander has to be dark to an extent.

Which war criminal was she compared to?

To George W. Bush. The writer of the meereenese blot essays compared Dany's behavior in Meereen to America's foreign policy in the middle east. 

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1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

To George W. Bush. The writer of the meereenese blot essays compared Dany's behavior in Meereen to America's foreign policy in the middle east. 

LOL!  Top trolling.

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40 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

To George W. Bush. The writer of the meereenese blot essays compared Dany's behavior in Meereen to America's foreign policy in the middle east. 

I just can imagine her saying:

“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”

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Just now, Eltharion21 said:

I just can imagine her saying:

“Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.”

I imagine something more along the lines Sir Arthur Harris:-

"They have sewn the wind, and now they will reap the whirlwind."

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