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George Martin and idea of kingship


Aldarion

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4 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Most likely, yes. And there are further similarities: many of Robb's victories were thanks to Brynden Tully, and many of Aegon's victories will be thanks to Jon Connington.

I would point out that we see Robb making plans independently. At Moat Cailin, it is he who decides to split the Northern army. Blackfish only just arrived with Cat and has not even spoken to him. AGoT, Catelyn VIII.

Spoiler

Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint. One end curled up from being rolled; he weighed it down with his dagger. "Both plans have virtues, but … look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin's host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him … by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised."

"Good," she said. She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice, as he sat there, puzzling over the map. "Tell me more."

"I'd leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway," he said, "but once we're below the Neck, I'd split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins." He pointed. "When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun." Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

Before the Whispering Wood, he does receive crucial information on Jaime's nature and valuable service as commander of the outriders from Brynden, but still takes leading role in planning. AGoT, Catelyn X.

Spoiler

"He is no man for sitting in a tent while his carpenters build siege towers," Ser Brynden had promised. "He has ridden out with his knights thrice already, to chase down raiders or storm a stubborn holdfast."

Nodding, Robb had studied the map her uncle had drawn him. Ned had taught him to read maps. "Raid him here," he said, pointing. "A few hundred men, no more. Tully banners. When he comes after you, we will be waiting"—his finger moved an inch to the left—"here."

At Riverrun, he independently rejects the idea of attacking Harrenhal, before even hearing of the new Lannister army Ser Stafford is raising. ACoK, Catelyn I.

Spoiler

"I'll wager there were others who felt the same as Lord Karstark," her brother Edmure declared. "How can we talk of peace while the Lannisters spread like a pestilence over my father's domains, stealing his crops and slaughtering his people? I say again, we ought to be marching on Harrenhal."

"We lack the strength," Robb said, though unhappily.

And later on at Hag's Mire, he alone lays out the plan to assault Moat Cailin. He may have spoken of this with others, including Blackfish, offscreen earlier, but I would think that he decided the actions to be taken and composed the final plan all by himself. ASoS, Catelyn V.

Spoiler

"Captain," said Robb when the man was done, "you have my thanks, and you will not go unrewarded. Lord Jason will take you back to your ship when we are done. Pray wait outside."

"That I will, Your Grace. That I will."

No sooner had he left the king's pavilion than the Greatjon began to laugh, but Robb silenced him with a look. "Euron Greyjoy is no man's notion of a king, if half of what Theon said of him was true. Theon is the rightful heir, unless he's dead . . . but Victarion commands the Iron Fleet. I can't believe he would remain at Moat Cailin while Euron Crow's Eye holds the Seastone Chair. He has to go back."

"There's a daughter as well," Galbart Glover reminded him. "The one who holds Deepwood Motte, and Robett's wife and child."

"If she stays at Deepwood Motte that's all she can hope to hold," said Robb. "What's true for the brothers is even more true for her. She will need to sail home to oust Euron and press her own claim." Her son turned to Lord Jason Mallister. "You have a fleet at Seagard?"

"A fleet, Your Grace? Half a dozen longships and two war galleys. Enough to defend my own shores against raiders, but I could not hope to meet the Iron Fleet in battle."

"Nor would I ask it of you. The ironborn will be setting sail toward Pyke, I expect. Theon told me how his people think. Every captain a king on his own deck. They will all want a voice in the succession. My lord, I need two of your longships to sail around the Cape of Eagles and up the Neck to Greywater Watch."

Lord Jason hesitated. "A dozen streams drain the wetwood, all shallow, silty, and uncharted. I would not even call them rivers. The channels are ever drifting and changing. There are endless sandbars, deadfalls, and tangles of rotting trees. And Greywater Watch moves. How are my ships to find it?"

"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore." He tapped a finger on the map. "Moat Cailin is the key. Lord Balon knew that, which is why he sent his brother Victarion there with the hard heart of the Greyjoy strength."

"Succession squabbles or no, the ironborn are not such fools as to abandon Moat Cailin," said Lady Maege.

"No," Robb admitted. "Victarion will leave the best part of his garrison, I'd guess. Every man he takes will be one less man we need to fight, however. And he will take many of his captains, count on that. The leaders. He will need such men to speak for him if he hopes to sit the Seastone Chair."

"You cannot mean to attack up the causeway, Your Grace," said Galbart Glover. "The approaches are too narrow. There is no way to deploy. No one has ever taken the Moat."

"From the south," said Robb. "But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart. If the Greyjoys have eyes south of the Neck, they will see my whole strength rushing headlong at Moat Cailin.

"Roose Bolton will have the rearguard, while I command the center. Greatjon, you shall lead the van against Moat Cailin. Your attack must be so fierce that the ironborn have no leisure to wonder if anyone is creeping down on them from the north."

The Greatjon chuckled. "Your creepers best come fast, or my men will swarm those walls and win the Moat before you show your face. I'll make a gift of it to you when you come dawdling up."

"That's a gift I should be glad to have," said Robb.

Edmure was frowning. "You talk of attacking the ironmen in the rear, sire, but how do you mean to get north of them?"

"There are ways through the Neck that are not on any map, Uncle. Ways known only to the crannogmen—narrow trails between the bogs, and wet roads through the reeds that only boats can follow." He turned to his two messengers. "Tell Howland Reed that he is to send guides to me, two days after I have started up the causeway. To the center battle, where my own standard flies. Three hosts will leave the Twins, but only two will reach Moat Cailin. Mine own battle will melt away into the Neck, to reemerge on the Fever. If we move swiftly once my uncle's wed, we can all be in position by year's end. We will fall upon the Moat from three sides on the first day of the new century, as the ironmen are waking with hammers beating at their heads from the mead they'll quaff the night before."

"I like this plan," said the Greatjon. "I like it well."

Galbart Glover rubbed his mouth. "There are risks. If the crannogmen should fail you . . ."

"We will be no worse than before. But they will not fail. My father knew the worth of Howland Reed." Robb rolled up the map, and only then looked at Catelyn. "Mother."

To tie this argument to actual topic of the thread, I would note that the man who truly is behind Robb's victories is none other than his father, Eddard Stark. Cat hears echoes of Ned in Robb's voice at Moat Cailin, thinks he taught Robb to read maps, and Robb himself invokes Ned's trust to Howland when Glover expresses his worry of crannogmen failing them. This ties nicely with the importance of education noted in the OP.

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1 hour ago, TsarGrey said:

I would point out that we see Robb making plans independently. At Moat Cailin, it is he who decides to split the Northern army. Blackfish only just arrived with Cat and has not even spoken to him. AGoT, Catelyn VIII.

  Reveal hidden contents

Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint. One end curled up from being rolled; he weighed it down with his dagger. "Both plans have virtues, but … look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin's host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him … by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised."

"Good," she said. She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice, as he sat there, puzzling over the map. "Tell me more."

"I'd leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly, and march the rest down the causeway," he said, "but once we're below the Neck, I'd split our host in two. The foot can continue down the kingsroad, while our horsemen cross the Green Fork at the Twins." He pointed. "When Lord Tywin gets word that we've come south, he'll march north to engage our main host, leaving our riders free to hurry down the west bank to Riverrun." Robb sat back, not quite daring to smile, but pleased with himself and hungry for her praise.

Before the Whispering Wood, he does receive crucial information on Jaime's nature and valuable service as commander of the outriders from Brynden, but still takes leading role in planning. AGoT, Catelyn X.

  Reveal hidden contents

"He is no man for sitting in a tent while his carpenters build siege towers," Ser Brynden had promised. "He has ridden out with his knights thrice already, to chase down raiders or storm a stubborn holdfast."

Nodding, Robb had studied the map her uncle had drawn him. Ned had taught him to read maps. "Raid him here," he said, pointing. "A few hundred men, no more. Tully banners. When he comes after you, we will be waiting"—his finger moved an inch to the left—"here."

At Riverrun, he independently rejects the idea of attacking Harrenhal, before even hearing of the new Lannister army Ser Stafford is raising. ACoK, Catelyn I.

   Reveal hidden contents

"I'll wager there were others who felt the same as Lord Karstark," her brother Edmure declared. "How can we talk of peace while the Lannisters spread like a pestilence over my father's domains, stealing his crops and slaughtering his people? I say again, we ought to be marching on Harrenhal."

"We lack the strength," Robb said, though unhappily.

And later on at Hag's Mire, he alone lays out the plan to assault the Moat Cailin. He may have spoken of this with others, including Blackfish, offscreen earlier, but I would think that he decided the actions to be taken and composed the final plan all by himself. ASoS, Catelyn V.

   Reveal hidden contents

"Captain," said Robb when the man was done, "you have my thanks, and you will not go unrewarded. Lord Jason will take you back to your ship when we are done. Pray wait outside."

"That I will, Your Grace. That I will."

No sooner had he left the king's pavilion than the Greatjon began to laugh, but Robb silenced him with a look. "Euron Greyjoy is no man's notion of a king, if half of what Theon said of him was true. Theon is the rightful heir, unless he's dead . . . but Victarion commands the Iron Fleet. I can't believe he would remain at Moat Cailin while Euron Crow's Eye holds the Seastone Chair. He has to go back."

"There's a daughter as well," Galbart Glover reminded him. "The one who holds Deepwood Motte, and Robett's wife and child."

"If she stays at Deepwood Motte that's all she can hope to hold," said Robb. "What's true for the brothers is even more true for her. She will need to sail home to oust Euron and press her own claim." Her son turned to Lord Jason Mallister. "You have a fleet at Seagard?"

"A fleet, Your Grace? Half a dozen longships and two war galleys. Enough to defend my own shores against raiders, but I could not hope to meet the Iron Fleet in battle."

"Nor would I ask it of you. The ironborn will be setting sail toward Pyke, I expect. Theon told me how his people think. Every captain a king on his own deck. They will all want a voice in the succession. My lord, I need two of your longships to sail around the Cape of Eagles and up the Neck to Greywater Watch."

Lord Jason hesitated. "A dozen streams drain the wetwood, all shallow, silty, and uncharted. I would not even call them rivers. The channels are ever drifting and changing. There are endless sandbars, deadfalls, and tangles of rotting trees. And Greywater Watch moves. How are my ships to find it?"

"Go upriver flying my banner. The crannogmen will find you. I want two ships to double the chances of my message reaching Howland Reed. Lady Maege shall go on one, Galbart on the second." He turned to the two he'd named. "You'll carry letters for those lords of mine who remain in the north, but all the commands within will be false, in case you have the misfortune to be taken. If that happens, you must tell them that you were sailing for the north. Back to Bear Island, or for the Stony Shore." He tapped a finger on the map. "Moat Cailin is the key. Lord Balon knew that, which is why he sent his brother Victarion there with the hard heart of the Greyjoy strength."

"Succession squabbles or no, the ironborn are not such fools as to abandon Moat Cailin," said Lady Maege.

"No," Robb admitted. "Victarion will leave the best part of his garrison, I'd guess. Every man he takes will be one less man we need to fight, however. And he will take many of his captains, count on that. The leaders. He will need such men to speak for him if he hopes to sit the Seastone Chair."

"You cannot mean to attack up the causeway, Your Grace," said Galbart Glover. "The approaches are too narrow. There is no way to deploy. No one has ever taken the Moat."

"From the south," said Robb. "But if we can attack from the north and west simultaneously, and take the ironmen in the rear while they are beating off what they think is my main thrust up the causeway, then we have a chance. Once I link up with Lord Bolton and the Freys, I will have more than twelve thousand men. I mean to divide them into three battles and start up the causeway a half-day apart. If the Greyjoys have eyes south of the Neck, they will see my whole strength rushing headlong at Moat Cailin.

"Roose Bolton will have the rearguard, while I command the center. Greatjon, you shall lead the van against Moat Cailin. Your attack must be so fierce that the ironborn have no leisure to wonder if anyone is creeping down on them from the north."

The Greatjon chuckled. "Your creepers best come fast, or my men will swarm those walls and win the Moat before you show your face. I'll make a gift of it to you when you come dawdling up."

"That's a gift I should be glad to have," said Robb.

Edmure was frowning. "You talk of attacking the ironmen in the rear, sire, but how do you mean to get north of them?"

"There are ways through the Neck that are not on any map, Uncle. Ways known only to the crannogmen—narrow trails between the bogs, and wet roads through the reeds that only boats can follow." He turned to his two messengers. "Tell Howland Reed that he is to send guides to me, two days after I have started up the causeway. To the center battle, where my own standard flies. Three hosts will leave the Twins, but only two will reach Moat Cailin. Mine own battle will melt away into the Neck, to reemerge on the Fever. If we move swiftly once my uncle's wed, we can all be in position by year's end. We will fall upon the Moat from three sides on the first day of the new century, as the ironmen are waking with hammers beating at their heads from the mead they'll quaff the night before."

"I like this plan," said the Greatjon. "I like it well."

Galbart Glover rubbed his mouth. "There are risks. If the crannogmen should fail you . . ."

"We will be no worse than before. But they will not fail. My father knew the worth of Howland Reed." Robb rolled up the map, and only then looked at Catelyn. "Mother."

To tie this argument to actual topic of the thread, I would note that the man who truly is behind Robb's victories is none other than his father, Eddard Stark. Cat hears echoes of Ned in Robb's voice at Moat Cailin, thinks he taught Robb to read maps, and Robb himself invokes Ned's trust to Howland when Glover expresses his worry of crannogmen failing them. This ties nicely with the importance of education noted in the OP.

I agree, but I also think that this would be the case for YG. 

Spoiler

In the chapter of WoW we see that he is chosing to face mace on the fields without consulting Jon first.

 

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon would be boring if he were Robb 2.0. He might actually be a success who doesn't fail at all but his cast down by brute force (if he is cast down at all). That would be much more interesting story - as would be the idea that he grows into a vain and self-involved and cruel king, emulating his alleged paternal grandfather or Aegon IV.

After all, Aegon clearly is not the story of the piece - he still has time and opportunity to become a villain. Could be a more interesting story than him just being a moron like Robb.

And George really likes to give one those reversals of fortune in a fortnight or couple of months. Aegon could be a guy who cheered by a crowd at the beginning of a book and cast down as Aegon the Abominable at the end.

Sure the details and the characters are diferent, but the arc would be the same.

Aegon becoming something like a Maegor II is possible, but not very likely. 

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7 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure the details and the characters are diferent, but the arc would be the same.

Aegon becoming something like a Maegor II is possible, but not very likely. 

It would be more fun. Even if not - it would also be more fun if Aegon did everything right ... and still failed, because he is cast down by a much superior force and greater cunning - things he could not possibly foresee.

Robb could have smelled his death half a mile away. He could have known he was dead.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It would be more fun. Even if not - it would also be more fun if Aegon did everything right ... and still failed, because he is cast down by a much superior force and greater cunning - things he could not possibly foresee.

Robb could have smelled his death half a mile away. He could have known he was dead.

Well Robb has the worst luck by far in the books, no one would suceed on his position if the conditions remained the same. His mistakes made him human and were not really that big, considering the things other characters got away with.

Aegon being perfect would be boring and also does not fit the character, we already saw that he was a hot head and easily manipulated by Tyrion. The most interesting thing I expect of him is his relationship with Arianne, and the rush of Jon con probably pushing the worst on him with the whole erradication of the usurper line and rushing to sucess before the GS take him out.

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6 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Well Robb has the worst luck by far in the books, no one would suceed on his position if the conditions remained the same. His mistakes made him human and were not really that big, considering the things other characters got away with.

Aegon being perfect would be boring and also does not fit the character, we already saw that he was a hot head and easily manipulated by Tyrion. The most interesting thing I expect of him is his relationship with Arianne, and the rush of Jon con probably pushing the worst on him with the whole erradication of the usurper line and rushing to sucess before the GS take him out.

I like Arianne as a character, but I think her story is very much of someone rushing to meet her doom.  I'm pretty sure she and Aegon will become an item and win the Iron Throne, only to fall to Daenerys.  I could see Daenerys offering to spare her if she bends the knee, only to get a torrent of abuse in return.

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19 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I agree, but I also think that this would be the case for YG. 

Thanks, though - tWoW spoiler -

Spoiler

if the sample on GRRM's website spells out that he bypassed Jon in decisionmaking, I missed that.

And if I may insist, it'd be nice to have tWoW warning outside the spoiler. Not issue for me, read that before, but might be for someone avoiding spoilers.

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11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Sure the details and the characters are diferent, but the arc would be the same.

Aegon becoming something like a Maegor II is possible, but not very likely. 

Agreed. If he is driven to madness, it will be more likely a consequence of external factors (that whole Stone Men thing).

11 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Aegon being perfect would be boring and also does not fit the character, we already saw that he was a hot head and easily manipulated by Tyrion. The most interesting thing I expect of him is his relationship with Arianne, and the rush of Jon con probably pushing the worst on him with the whole erradication of the usurper line and rushing to sucess before the GS take him out.

He could have learned from that, but that also does not seem to be in character. So yeah, I do think his hotheaded nature will be his undoing. Although I do have to say that that trope of characters grabbing an Idiot Ball and rushing to their doom is getting boring (so far: Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Robb, Renly, Tywin... every significant death in the series I can remember, except for Kevan). Personally, I would like to see a Denethor-like situation, of someone who does everything right but still fails in the end because of the overwhelming odds, but if "overwhelming odds" comes in the shape of Daenerys then it could be argued (correctly or not) that it is still his fault, so...

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7 hours ago, Aldarion said:

He could have learned from that, but that also does not seem to be in character. So yeah, I do think his hotheaded nature will be his undoing. Although I do have to say that that trope of characters grabbing an Idiot Ball and rushing to their doom is getting boring (so far: Ned, Catelyn, Jon, Robb, Renly, Tywin... every significant death in the series I can remember, except for Kevan). Personally, I would like to see a Denethor-like situation, of someone who does everything right but still fails in the end because of the overwhelming odds, but if "overwhelming odds" comes in the shape of Daenerys then it could be argued (correctly or not) that it is still his fault, so...

To be fair I don't think that Renly grabbed the idiot ball that got him killed, he was killed in a way that has no way to prevent against. And Tywin could not predict his death until Tyrion catching him with his briefs down in the pot.

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7 hours ago, TsarGrey said:

Thanks, though - tWoW spoiler -

  Reveal hidden contents

if the sample on GRRM's website spells out that he bypassed Jon in decisionmaking, I missed that.

And if I may insist, it'd be nice to have tWoW warning outside the spoiler. Not issue for me, read that before, but might be for someone avoiding spoilers.

Sorry, I though that it was cleary a spoiler with the hidden content, but I will post a warn the next time.

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12 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

To be fair I don't think that Renly grabbed the idiot ball that got him killed, he was killed in a way that has no way to prevent against. And Tywin could not predict his death until Tyrion catching him with his briefs down in the pot.

Renly may not have grabbed IdiotBall per se, but he was still indirectly resposible for his own death (trying to usurp his older brother, who was an experienced military commander to boot). But Tywin is directly responsible for his own death by abusing Tyrion - and frankly, what he said on that privy was basically begging Tyrion to kill him. For comparison, Denethor was also somewhat resposible for his death: but that was a consequence of an action, a calculated risk - a calculated risk which actually paid off, strategically speaking, even if he did overestimate his own resillience (which is actually similar to Renly, whole illegality of Renly's attempt notwithstanding). A comparison here would be if Stannis managed to lure Boltons out in the open battle, but still died; or if Aegon managed to conquer Seven Kingdoms and repair at least some of the damage that wars had caused, but got killed by Euron or Daenerys - and even that only if his death is not a decision to e.g. personally participate in a trial by combat, personally lead a charge or whatever.

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Renly was not usurping Stannis. He was usurping Joffrey. It's a distinction.

It's worth remembering that months pass between Renly's flight from KL and his being crowned, and in all that time Stannis says and does nothing despite clearly being aware of what was going on. Renly stepped into that vacuum.

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1 hour ago, Ran said:

Renly was not usurping Stannis. He was usurping Joffrey. It's a distinction.

It's worth remembering that months pass between Renly's flight from KL and his being crowned, and in all that time Stannis says and does nothing despite clearly being aware of what was going on. Renly stepped into that vacuum.

Not to mention, if Renly bent to Stannis at the parley there's a great chance his followers riot and his marriage gets annulled. 

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Renly was not usurping Stannis. He was usurping Joffrey. It's a distinction.

It's worth remembering that months pass between Renly's flight from KL and his being crowned, and in all that time Stannis says and does nothing despite clearly being aware of what was going on. Renly stepped into that vacuum.

He was usurping Joffrey, yes, but does Stannis' reluctance render Renly's obligation to support him null and void?

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34 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

He was usurping Joffrey, yes, but does Stannis' reluctance render Renly's obligation to support him null and void?

At the point that Stannis moves, Renly has already taken up the burden of a crown and with it has made certain obligations towards his supporters who have put themselves at risk by contesting the Iron Throne in his name. I think it's arguably the case that Stannis, by failing to "shit or get off the pot", had freed Renly of that kind of obligation. Especially since Stannis was himself not able to prove his contention that he had any more right to usurp Joffrey than Renly did. He was making a claim that Joffrey was illegitimate entirely, as was his siblings, but he had no real proof.

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7 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Renly may not have grabbed IdiotBall per se, but he was still indirectly resposible for his own death (trying to usurp his older brother, who was an experienced military commander to boot). But Tywin is directly responsible for his own death by abusing Tyrion - and frankly, what he said on that privy was basically begging Tyrion to kill him. For comparison, Denethor was also somewhat resposible for his death: but that was a consequence of an action, a calculated risk - a calculated risk which actually paid off, strategically speaking, even if he did overestimate his own resillience (which is actually similar to Renly, whole illegality of Renly's attempt notwithstanding). A comparison here would be if Stannis managed to lure Boltons out in the open battle, but still died; or if Aegon managed to conquer Seven Kingdoms and repair at least some of the damage that wars had caused, but got killed by Euron or Daenerys - and even that only if his death is not a decision to e.g. personally participate in a trial by combat, personally lead a charge or whatever.

As far as Tywin was concern, Tyrion was imprisoned waiting for execution. I don't thin is possible for him to predict that Jaime will return, have a guity trip over event past years ago, release his brother charged with Kingslaying, army him with a crossbow and let him not only escape but also confront Tywin using the help of Varys during all that.

Renly was killed by magic, that is no way to predict it or prevent it. As far as we know he had the best position, the bigger army and was the clear front runner when he was alive.

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Renley, whether or not Stannis "shit or got off the pot", still usurped his older brother's claim to the throne, which was soley based on the fact that Cersei's children were bastards of incest.

At the time of Robert's death, Stannis was in the service of his king (Robert). Although it is not clear why Stannis did not tell his suspicions to Robert. Maybe he was plotting to usurp his brother's children and gathering support on Dragonstone before Robert's death, but it has been a long time since my last re-read.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

As far as Tywin was concern, Tyrion was imprisoned waiting for execution. I don't thin is possible for him to predict that Jaime will return, have a guity trip over event past years ago, release his brother charged with Kingslaying, army him with a crossbow and let him not only escape but also confront Tywin using the help of Varys during all that.

Renly was killed by magic, that is no way to predict it or prevent it. As far as we know he had the best position, the bigger army and was the clear front runner when he was alive.

I was referring to Tywin's talk with Tyrion while latter had crossbow pointed at former. 

As for Renly, I actually agree with that - see my post again.

44 minutes ago, Travis said:

At the time of Robert's death, Stannis was in the service of his king (Robert). Although it is not clear why Stannis did not tell his suspicions to Robert. Maybe he was plotting to usurp his brother's children and gathering support on Dragonstone before Robert's death, but it has been a long time since my last re-read.

Because Jon Arryn got murdered before they could bring evidence to Robert, and Robert would have never believed Stannis alone, IIRC.

 

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Considering that all humans have weaknesses and strengths and GRRM making this perfectly clear with every character in the story, then accordingly there shouldn't be a single King (or Queen) in power at the end. It's similar to Machiavelli who said you can be a good person in life but a terrible ruler or the opposite is also possible, a terrible person in life but a good ruler. However in GRRM's story even that gets more complicated. When you let your terribleness go unchecked and no one is willing to step in, you will have a rebellion on your hands. Or if try to improve the system (like better conditions for the smallfolk) and piss of a certain faction as a result, you will also have a rebellion on your hands. So one way or the other, I don't see how GRRM's story can end with a single King (or Queen) in charge of everything. His story would lend itself more to the end result of a ruling council. Since no one person in his story is fit to rule by themselves due to GRRM's depictions of human weaknesses/strengths.

Unless the ending is what supposedly the show gave us. Where you have a semi-God ruling over all, thereby bypassing humanity as a whole and the elimination of those flaws/strengths. However not only would that be a bleak view on humanity to end the books with but even a God like being isn't immune to making decisions some will not agree with so there will still be plenty of strife ahead.

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