How did Viserys and Daenerys survive after being thrown in the streets ?

[Mario Seddy]

How did Viserys and Daenerys survive after being thrown out of the house with the red door, since they basically had nothing ? Who helped them ? Where they really struggling for food and shelter ? Weren't they helped by the archons and triarchs of Essos ? 

[John Suburbs]

They were initially taken in by wealthy citizens in Braavos and the Free Cities, but that wore off eventually -- probably because it became less and less likely that they would get their crowns back as the years went on. After that, they sold what little possessions they had, including their mother's crown, before winding up with Illyrio.

[Lord Varys]

That is still a mystery, considering Viserys III would have been still a boy at that time, as well. Do we believe the elites of the Free Cities would treat a minor boy as their equal? How is it that he was never abducted, robbed, and/or enslaved by some unscrupulous man.

People usually think Viserys III was unable to lace his own breeches - how he could he have survived on his own as a young teen is very difficult to explain.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

They were initially taken in by wealthy citizens in Braavos and the Free Cities, but that wore off eventually -- probably because it became less and less likely that they would get their crowns back as the years went on. After that, they sold what little possessions they had, including their mother's crown, before winding up with Illyrio.

Or imo because Viserys' attitude wore off. If you were a noble or high magister of a city-state for example, would you suffer Viserys for long, especially if you have sons and daughters?

Imo, they never had to live "on the streets", but tended to live as guests with rich families, who initially didn't mind having them to boost their own social status within their own society... eventually wearing out their welcome, because of Viserys' personality. The money issue would have foremostly have been when Viserys had to seek passage to journey to a new destination (especially when his paranoia would prompt him to suspect assassins were after them). Captains of ships, river barges or convoys wouldn't have come cheap.

[frenin]

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is still a mystery, considering Viserys III would have been still a boy at that time, as well. Do we believe the elites of the Free Cities would treat a minor boy as their equal? How is it that he was never abducted, robbed, and/or enslaved by some unscrupulous man.

People usually think Viserys III was unable to lace his own breeches - how he could he have survived on his own as a young teen is very difficult to explain.

For all the shit Viserys gets, deserved ofc, the man knew how to do what it took for him and  his Little sister to survive, Dany confirms that as much.

[Rose of Red Lake]

What's odd to me is that Dany never recalls having to wear a disguise or change her name. Seems like survival 101, but I think Viserys was too proud to give that up. I would have liked to have heard more about that because it's an interesting contrast to the Starks who had to change their identities, go into hiding, take different names, pretend, ect.

[SeanF]

I don't think they were living on the streets.  I think their situation was shabby-genteel, most of the time, like Charles II.

[HexMachina]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That is still a mystery, considering Viserys III would have been still a boy at that time, as well. Do we believe the elites of the Free Cities would treat a minor boy as their equal? How is it that he was never abducted, robbed, and/or enslaved by some unscrupulous man.

People usually think Viserys III was unable to lace his own breeches - how he could he have survived on his own as a young teen is very difficult to explain.

You mean like some Lyseni brothel owner taking in a silver haired slave because they fetch so high a price only to realise he is Viserys the Targaryen Princeling and maybe just maybe he might fetch a fine price to the right bidder...

I think we’re time warping here!  

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

You mean like some Lyseni brothel owner taking in a silver haired slave because they fetch so high a price only to realise he is Viserys the Targaryen Princeling and maybe just maybe he might fetch a fine price to the right bidder...

I think we’re time warping here!  

No I meant exactly that. I see no way how Viserys III in his early teens with 4+-Dany cluting to his hand could have survived all by himself. They should have eaten him alive. He had no servants or friends of any kind.

[Narsil4]

Varys and Illyrio may have constantly kept eyes on them. 

It could have served their plans to make Dany and Viserys feel destitute and then push them to conquer the 7 Kingdoms. 

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Varys and Illyrio may have constantly kept eyes on them. 

It could have served their plans to make Dany and Viserys feel destitute and then push them to conquer the 7 Kingdoms. 

Oh, a lot of ad hoc explanations are possible. But I'd actually like to know what actually happens. How George R. R. Martin imagines Viserys III survived after Ser Willem Darry breathed his last.

Considering Dany's dim memories of the man I think she was likely 4-5 when Darry died, which would make Viserys III 12-13 years old.

I certainly can see Varys or Illyrio or even Doran via Oberyn (if he was still/again in Essos at the time) encourage dignitaries in the Free Cities to take the Targaryens in, but how on earth does Viserys III manage his day-to-day life? Are we to believe a 12-13-year-old could transact any business transactions? That the magisters and such who hosted him and his sister for a time would do that without any ulterior motives of their own - and that a 12-13-year-old would magically be able to, say, resist the desire of some rich guy to marry him to his daughter so he can add the last Targaryen king to his collection of pets? Or simply to make him his slave?

With whom would a guy from this Free City negotiate if he wanted to bring the Targaryens to their city to host them? How would they be able to book ship passage or to keep whatever valuables they had for as long as they did (Viserys III just recently sold his mother's crown).

This whole thing is lacking in detail.

To make sense of that Viserys III must have had some powerful and rich Essosi benefactor for quite some time after Darry's death, and this guy must have brought him through the time of his own minority.

And, to be sure, if George were smart he would actually reveal some time down the road that Viserys III and Illyrio go back much farther than Dany is believing in AGoT. Which could be easily done considering we have essentially no idea when and how the Drogo plan was made - who approached whom there, when the first idea was made, how Illyrio/Viserys III contacted each other, etc.

A good way to make sense of that from the POV of the author would be to reveal later that Illyrio/Varys wanted to implement a Dothraki plan for quite some time - but Viserys III was resisting this kind of thing, refusing to consider to marry Dany to Drogo until he got really desperate. And then it might be that Illyrio and Varys were behind the more recent shabby lifestyle of Viserys III (and the Golden Company refusing to fight for Viserys III) which was arranged by Varys and Illyrio so Viserys III would eventually crawl back to Illyrio to go through with the Dothraki idea after all.

But that's just me speculating. Dany not knowing anything about that could very easily be explained by her never being present when her brother talked with Illyrio's agents and allies her and never being told about any of his plans until shortly before the series begins.

[HexMachina]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No I meant exactly that. I see no way how Viserys III in his early teens with 4+-Dany cluting to his hand could have survived all by himself. They should have eaten him alive. He had no servants or friends of any kind.

Sorry, i was agreeing with you  i just noticed, while thinking on what you had said, that he could easily have shared the exact same fate as another Prince Viserys which would have been kindnof a funny coincidence

[The Lord of the Crossing]

10 hours ago, Mario Seddy said:

How did Viserys and Daenerys survive after being thrown out of the house with the red door, since they basically had nothing ? Who helped them ? Where they really struggling for food and shelter ? Weren't they helped by the archons and triarchs of Essos ? 

It wasn't a comfortable life.  They had sympathizers who helped them but that ran out.  Any sympathy was risky because of the long reach of the iron throne.  But all of this is not really important.  Viserys did not live to take back his kingdom but his brave little sister hopefully will be successful.  

[Angel Eyes]

I'm not quite sure how Viserys survived without skill in arms. Then he wound up in a situation that necessitated skill at arms and that proved to be the death of him because the Dothraki only respect strength and Viserys had none.

[Back door hodor]

Interesting topic, and not one that comes up too often in my experience.

Others above me have made good points but I'll throw out a guess as well.

Doran Martell.

After actually thinking about it, The Targs seem to have needed some kind of benefactor, House Martell is the only one I can think of that makes any kind of sense and ties into the larger story.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Sorry, i was agreeing with you  i just noticed, while thinking on what you had said, that he could easily have shared the exact same fate as another Prince Viserys which would have been kindnof a funny coincidence

Oh, yeah, and he nearly ended up in slavery, too. What did save Viserys III? Viserys II had the advantage that he was at least from a royal family that was still in power. The Lyseni could be paid for either kill or return him ... in Viserys III it was clear that the Iron Throne only wanted his death.

Why did nobody ever take him to simply offer to cut his throat and sent his pickled head to Robert in exchange for a shitload of money? Especially while he was still a child?

23 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Interesting topic, and not one that comes up too often in my experience.

Others above me have made good points but I'll throw out a guess as well.

Doran Martell.

After actually thinking about it, The Targs seem to have needed some kind of benefactor, House Martell is the only one I can think of that makes any kind of sense and ties into the larger story.

Doran/Oberyn are confirmed to have been somewhat involved with Viserys III while Doran was around (the marriage contract). Could even be they continued to pay the Sealord who witnessed the contract to see after the children after Darry's death. But we have no indication that they were involved with them thereafter - could certainly be, without Dany knowing anything, but with Viserys III as per Quentyn not knowing about the contract makes this pretty unlikely.

If there was a concentrated effort to care for them it is more likely Varys/Illyrio took care of them either directly or indirectly through agents (although Viserys III must then have known something about all that - else he wouldn't have trusted those people).

[Back door hodor]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, yeah, and he nearly ended up in slavery, too. What did save Viserys III? Viserys II had the advantage that he was at least from a royal family that was still in power. The Lyseni could be paid for either kill or return him ... in Viserys III it was clear that the Iron Throne only wanted his death.

Why did nobody ever take him to simply offer to cut his throat and sent his pickled head to Robert in exchange for a shitload of money? Especially while he was still a child?

Doran/Oberyn are confirmed to have been somewhat involved with Viserys III while Doran was around (the marriage contract). Could even be they continued to pay the Sealord who witnessed the contract to see after the children after Darry's death. But we have no indication that they were involved with them thereafter - could certainly be, without Dany knowing anything, but with Viserys III as per Quentyn not knowing about the contract makes this pretty unlikely.

If there was a concentrated effort to care for them it is more likely Varys/Illyrio took care of them either directly or indirectly through agents (although Viserys III must then have known something about all that - else he wouldn't have trusted those people).

I definitely agree, more evidence is absolutely needed to confirm this, just putting Doran/Oberyn out as a possibility....this is a very murky and interesting subject, there seems to be more going on than we know....as you said, most people on this forum and otherwise do not see Viserys as being capable of this on his own, myself included.

[SeanF]

Someone taught Dany to read and write (and presumably do arithmetic) even if she is badly educated for someone in her position.  Viserys was able to host a banquet for the Golden Company.  And, the sale of his mother's crown must have raised a lot of money, and a crown is not something you could keep safe if you were living on the streets. So, they must have had benefactors, and I'm inclined to think Illyrio, Doran, and Varys were all playing a role.

[sweetsunray]

20 hours ago, SeanF said:

Someone taught Dany to read and write (and presumably do arithmetic) even if she is badly educated for someone in her position.  Viserys was able to host a banquet for the Golden Company.  And, the sale of his mother's crown must have raised a lot of money, and a crown is not something you could keep safe if you were living on the streets. So, they must have had benefactors, and I'm inclined to think Illyrio, Doran, and Varys were all playing a role.

Exactly! Dany's wordings give imo the wrong impression to the reader and are meant to give the reader the impression of "oh, they lived on the streets!" But Dany never really words it like that. She remembers mainly how much they moved a lot. Her brother was her sole constant, and not a good and trustworthy constant. She herself questions his claims about cutthroats being after them at the start. Only after Viserys is dead and she knows an assassin was sent after her (the only one ever confirmed by Robert to the reader), does Dany start to adopt Viserys' narrative more and more.

Really, if you were living on the streets and have no pickpocket skills like Varys, I don't see how on earth Viserys and Dany could ever have traveled from Braavos to Tyrosh, to Myr, to Volantis, Qohor, back to Braavos, etc... Viserys' poor social and fighting skills do not match with the idea that they could have done this without help.

It is possible that towards the last 2 years or so, they would have had to resort to staying at inns on their own dime. Robert's succession seemed too secure with two sons and Westeros too united (certainly after Balon's rebellion), and since Sealords and Archons are not hereditary positions or even last a lifetime and naturally political interest returns to securing their own position, any extra ambitions towards Westeros through Viserys and Dany would have waned as well. And just Viserys himself is a huge problematic factor, even with Targaryen supporters. If even Dany was critical and skeptical of Viserys at 12 in chapter 1 of aGoT, then surely everybody else could see what a buffoon he was, who could only carry a sword but not use it, except against someone defenseless. But anyhow, feasted and welcomed guests for years and eventually travelers who live in an inn before Illyrio plucked them up is a far cry from "living on the streets", let alone "travel as stowaway" or something.

In fact, aGoT and aCoK should make clear that Dany only experiences physical hardships for the very first time in her life with the khalasar: long term horseriding and the red waste. I think the style of living at Qarth illustrates far better the lifestyle Dany had for her entire life, except for the duration of her marriage to Drogo. It's just the first time that she herself has to convince wealthy people and nobility into giving away a fortune (ships, soldiers) to take Westeros, and experiences the same frustrations as Viserys must have (while it's completely understandable why people just won't gift anyone a fleet let alone an army).

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly! Dany's wordings give imo the wrong impression to the reader and are meant to give the reader the impression of "oh, they lived on the streets!" But Dany never really words it like that. She remembers mainly how much they moved a lot. Her brother was her sole constant, and not a good and trustworthy constant. She herself questions his claims about cutthroats being after them at the start. Only after Viserys is dead and she knows an assassin was sent after her (the only one ever confirmed by Robert to the reader), does Dany start to adopt Viserys' narrative more and more.

Really, if you were living on the streets and have no pickpocket skills like Varys, I don't see how on earth Viserys and Dany could ever have traveled from Braavos to Tyrosh, to Myr, to Volantis, Qohor, back to Braavos, etc... Viserys' poor social and fighting skills do not match with the idea that they could have done this without help.

It is possible that towards the last 2 years or so, they would have had to resort to staying at inns on their own dime. Robert's succession seemed too secure with two sons and Westeros too united (certainly after Balon's rebellion), and since Sealords and Archons are not hereditary positions or even last a lifetime and naturally political interest returns to securing their own position, any extra ambitions towards Westeros through Viserys and Dany would have waned as well. And just Viserys himself is a huge problematic factor, even with Targaryen supporters. If even Dany was critical and skeptical of Viserys at 12 in chapter 1 of aGoT, then surely everybody else could see what a buffoon he was, who could only carry a sword but not use it, except against someone defenseless. But anyhow, feasted and welcomed guests for years and eventually travelers who live in an inn before Illyrio plucked them up is a far cry from "living on the streets", let alone "travel as stowaway" or something.

In fact, aGoT and aCoK should make clear that Dany only experiences physical hardships for the very first time in her life with the khalasar: long term horseriding and the red waste. I think the style of living at Qarth illustrates far better the lifestyle Dany had for her entire life, except for the duration of her marriage to Drogo. It's just the first time that she herself has to convince wealthy people and nobility into giving away a fortune (ships, soldiers) to take Westeros, and experiences the same frustrations as Viserys must have (while it's completely understandable why people just won't gift anyone a fleet let alone an army).

I think they may have lived in luxury from time to time, but there would also be times they would be living in rented rooms, and as you suggest, inns.  So, not desperate poverty, but still pretty precarious.  It's why I compared them to Charles II in exile, upthread.