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Mario Seddy

How did Viserys and Daenerys survive after being thrown in the streets ?

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On 11/22/2019 at 1:20 PM, SeanF said:

Someone taught Dany to read and write (and presumably do arithmetic) even if she is badly educated for someone in her position.  Viserys was able to host a banquet for the Golden Company.  And, the sale of his mother's crown must have raised a lot of money, and a crown is not something you could keep safe if you were living on the streets. So, they must have had benefactors, and I'm inclined to think Illyrio, Doran, and Varys were all playing a role.

They never lived on the streets. That's people not understanding what being a 'beggar king' means - it means you live off the money of your hosts, other nobility and folk who actually are rich, not that you are actually a proper beggar living on the streets.

However, the issue still remains that it is ludicrous that Viserys III and his sister could have remained free people if they lost all protectors and servants as children.

The idea that Viserys III could walk around with his mother's crown and other valuables without a considerable number of sworn shields and bodyguards protecting his stuff is utterly nonsensical.

We know that when Darry died the servants made off with what valuables they had, so they should have lost the crown then. Viserys III didn't have the strength to stop even a woman from searching the house with the red door to take everything she could carry, much less grown men.

The idea that a guy who was forced to sell his mother's crown - the last valuable thing he had - would get the proper worth of the thing in coin is also not very likely. Rhaenyra sold her crown to get passage to Dragonstone. One assumes the money for Rhaella's crown wouldn't have been brought in much more profit.

And, sure, Dany got some education - either from Viserys III himself (who would have had some proper tutors while Darry was still around, and, of course, before at court and on Dragonstone) or from people he hired or from the magisters and such they stayed with.

The overall problem there is that they must have been taken in by somebody immediately after they lost the house, or else they wouldn't have survived. And possibly for some time, at least until Viserys III was older. Because he wouldn't have been able to survive as a 14-year-old all by himself, just as he wouldn't have as a 12-13-year-old.

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33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

They never lived on the streets. That's people not understanding what being a 'beggar king' means - it means you live off the money of your hosts, other nobility and folk who actually are rich, not that you are actually a proper beggar living on the streets.

However, the issue still remains that it is ludicrous that Viserys III and his sister could have remained free people if they lost all protectors and servants as children.

The idea that Viserys III could walk around with his mother's crown and other valuables without a considerable number of sworn shields and bodyguards protecting his stuff is utterly nonsensical.

We know that when Darry died the servants made off with what valuables they had, so they should have lost the crown then. Viserys III didn't have the strength to stop even a woman from searching the house with the red door to take everything she could carry, much less grown men.

The idea that a guy who was forced to sell his mother's crown - the last valuable thing he had - would get the proper worth of the thing in coin is also not very likely. Rhaenyra sold her crown to get passage to Dragonstone. One assumes the money for Rhaella's crown wouldn't have been brought in much more profit.

And, sure, Dany got some education - either from Viserys III himself (who would have had some proper tutors while Darry was still around, and, of course, before at court and on Dragonstone) or from people he hired or from the magisters and such they stayed with.

The overall problem there is that they must have been taken in by somebody immediately after they lost the house, or else they wouldn't have survived. And possibly for some time, at least until Viserys III was older. Because he wouldn't have been able to survive as a 14-year-old all by himself, just as he wouldn't have as a 12-13-year-old.

My guess is that the Sealord of Braavos took them in at some point, given that he was one of the witnesses to the betrothal.  But, perhaps a new Sealord threw them out.

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9 hours ago, SeanF said:

My guess is that the Sealord of Braavos took them in at some point, given that he was one of the witnesses to the betrothal.  But, perhaps a new Sealord threw them out.

Yeah, that's a good idea I actually wanted to suggest in the other post, but forgot. I guess that could make sense. Although it would make it less likely that Viserys III didn't know about the Dornish marriage contract. If Darry never told him, then the Sealord witnessing it certainly should have felt obliged to tell the boy less he never learns that he has an ally in the Prince of Dorne.

Still, it is essentially very hard to swallow that Viserys III didn't collect a coterie of exiles and hangers-on around him, giving him some some sort of shield or support. Without something like that he would have long been lost. I mean, surely not only Jorah was exiled from Westeros in the years since the Rebellion - and the Targaryen pretender would be the guy you would gravitate towards in Essos if you were hoping to get back home or win some lands in the process.

I mean, just think in what kind of predicament Sam and company get themselves in Braavos, and they are just trying to get to Oldtown. Viserys III and Dany would essentially be two homeless people with no experience at finding their way in the world, stuck in a succession of foreign countries with no ways to even contact possible allies after they were thrown out by some host.

To make sense of that one would really have to revisit what Dany thinks of her childhood and reveal that Viserys III had some kind of massive support network that wasn't really showing their colors officially, but was helping them to move them around from city to city and from host to host.

Another way to help make sense of that is to perhaps assume the man wasn't as incompetent as he appears in AGoT when he has to deal with the Dothraki which he clearly loathes and doesn't really understand. But this doesn't mean he couldn't be charming when he felt safe and was at the center of attention at some feast or party.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's a good idea I actually wanted to suggest in the other post, but forgot. I guess that could make sense. Although it would make it less likely that Viserys III didn't know about the Dornish marriage contract. If Darry never told him, then the Sealord witnessing it certainly should have felt obliged to tell the boy less he never learns that he has an ally in the Prince of Dorne.

Still, it is essentially very hard to swallow that Viserys III didn't collect a coterie of exiles and hangers-on around him, giving him some some sort of shield or support. Without something like that he would have long been lost. I mean, surely not only Jorah was exiled from Westeros in the years since the Rebellion - and the Targaryen pretender would be the guy you would gravitate towards in Essos if you were hoping to get back home or win some lands in the process.

I mean, just think in what kind of predicament Sam and company get themselves in Braavos, and they are just trying to get to Oldtown. Viserys III and Dany would essentially be two homeless people with no experience at finding their way in the world, stuck in a succession of foreign countries with no ways to even contact possible allies after they were thrown out by some host.

To make sense of that one would really have to revisit what Dany thinks of her childhood and reveal that Viserys III had some kind of massive support network that wasn't really showing their colors officially, but was helping them to move them around from city to city and from host to host.

Another way to help make sense of that is to perhaps assume the man wasn't as incompetent as he appears in AGoT when he has to deal with the Dothraki which he clearly loathes and doesn't really understand. But this doesn't mean he couldn't be charming when he felt safe and was at the center of attention at some feast or party.

We are never sure what Prince Viserys actually knew because we don't have his POV.  What he told his little sister are almost certain to be incomplete.  He might know of the Dornish plot and kept it secret.  A careful network of watchers under the pay of the Sealord and the Magisters could make sure they were safe.  They travelled from city to city.  Where they invited ahead of time?  Arrangements can easily be made in advance.

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There are clues that point to secret help for the royal siblings. Particularly Doran Martell's claim that he has been working to bring about his heart's desire of putting Viserys back on the Iron Throne with his daughter and heir Arianne as his queen. It is extremely unlikely that the brother and sister are left without support and abandoned by the secret Targaryen loyalists in Westeros. Whatever that means in terms of numbers and influence. It is important to remember that they have lived in Illyrio's house in Pentos for only "nigh on half a year" when we first meet them in A Game of Thrones. Somebody or somebodies had been supporting them before then. We have a clue of where some of that support may have come from or routed through in the guests at Khal Drogo's meeting, including the brother of the Archon of Tyrosh. Clearly we have proof of the Sealord of Braavos's favor while they reside in the house with the red door, but after they loose his support - likely the result of the succession of a new Sealord - there is no reason to believe the Martells and others stop aiding them.

I would only add that contrary to many wild theories about the meaning of the lemon tree outside Dany's window, it is very likely that this is a important clue showing continued connection of the Martells to the siblings while they are in Braavos. A unspoken symbol of Dornish support for the Targaryen cause. The existence of the marriage pact, signed by Derry, the Red Viper, and witnessed by the Sealord appears to confirm continued support for the brother and sister while in exile. As does Doran's secret plots.

Edited by SFDanny

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20 hours ago, SeanF said:

My guess is that the Sealord of Braavos took them in at some point, given that he was one of the witnesses to the betrothal.  But, perhaps a new Sealord threw them out.

Sealord of Braavos was the first to shelter them, yes. From Doran we also know they resided in Tyrosh for a long time. After all, Arianne was supposed to travel to Tyrosh and be the Archon's page, all to meet her betrothed Viserys. Since Arianne's mother protested against this, the Archon's green-haired daughter resided in Dorne instead, in the swimming gardens. So, they must have lived in Tyrosh for a far longer time than a few months. It's after Tyrosh that stuff gets murky. 

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that's a good idea I actually wanted to suggest in the other post, but forgot. I guess that could make sense. Although it would make it less likely that Viserys III didn't know about the Dornish marriage contract. If Darry never told him, then the Sealord witnessing it certainly should have felt obliged to tell the boy less he never learns that he has an ally in the Prince of Dorne.

Still, it is essentially very hard to swallow that Viserys III didn't collect a coterie of exiles and hangers-on around him, giving him some some sort of shield or support. Without something like that he would have long been lost. I mean, surely not only Jorah was exiled from Westeros in the years since the Rebellion - and the Targaryen pretender would be the guy you would gravitate towards in Essos if you were hoping to get back home or win some lands in the process.

I mean, just think in what kind of predicament Sam and company get themselves in Braavos, and they are just trying to get to Oldtown. Viserys III and Dany would essentially be two homeless people with no experience at finding their way in the world, stuck in a succession of foreign countries with no ways to even contact possible allies after they were thrown out by some host.

To make sense of that one would really have to revisit what Dany thinks of her childhood and reveal that Viserys III had some kind of massive support network that wasn't really showing their colors officially, but was helping them to move them around from city to city and from host to host.

Another way to help make sense of that is to perhaps assume the man wasn't as incompetent as he appears in AGoT when he has to deal with the Dothraki which he clearly loathes and doesn't really understand. But this doesn't mean he couldn't be charming when he felt safe and was at the center of attention at some feast or party.

Dany was likely kept in the dark, and her understanding would be very limited, given how young she was.

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10 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

We are never sure what Prince Viserys actually knew because we don't have his POV.  What he told his little sister are almost certain to be incomplete.  He might know of the Dornish plot and kept it secret.  A careful network of watchers under the pay of the Sealord and the Magisters could make sure they were safe.  They travelled from city to city.  Where they invited ahead of time?  Arrangements can easily be made in advance.

The idea that Viserys knew about a secret  plot to get him home, if anyone but the Essosi ever cared for them i don't buy  the Doran thing a little, can safely be dismissed, Viserys was was well last despair in the Dothraki sea... Because he had nothing to hold onto, Dany put it nicely, if Viserys was aware of something, the guy would've never fallen as hard as he did.

 

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They were homeless in between cities and hosts.  They did live under hardship but never to the same predicament as a street boy in Flea Bottom.  Varys and his operatives kept tabs on them and help arrives just in time. 

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

The idea that Viserys knew about a secret  plot to get him home, if anyone but the Essosi ever cared for them i don't buy  the Doran thing a little, can safely be dismissed, Viserys was was well last despair in the Dothraki sea... Because he had nothing to hold onto, Dany put it nicely, if Viserys was aware of something, the guy would've never fallen as hard as he did.

 

The question of what Viserys was aware of, and what support the two siblings got in exile are two very different subjects. It appears that there are many clues to show support for the two. That in no way implies that Viserys is aware of the details of that support. He is hardly a person to be trusted with secrets that could mean the death of his supporters. No one with any brains would trust Viserys with such information. To me the real question is how do the two royal children end up in Illyrio's care? It looks like they are safely in the care of a close ally of the Martell brothers when the Sealord harbors them, but they end up in the control of Varys and his closest ally in Pentos. Yet the Martells know nothing of Varys's plots, or perhaps, not even Vary's involvement. There is a huge backstory here we know little about.

Edited by SFDanny

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1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

The question of what Viserys was aware of, and what support the two siblings got in exile are two very different subjects. It appears that there are many clues to show support for the two. That in no way implies that Viserys is aware of the details of that support. He is hardly a person to be trusted with secrets that could mean the death of his supporters. No one with any brains would trust Viserys with such information. To me the real question is how do the two royal children end up in Illyrio's care? It looks like they are safely in the care of a close ally of the Martell brothers when the Sealord harbors them, but the end up in the control of Varys and his closest ally in Pentos. Yet the Martells know nothing of Varys's plots, or perhaps, not even Vary's involvement. There is a huge backstory here we know little about.

I tend to lean with @sweetsunray here.

They were in Tyrosh for among time before Illyrio just took/bought... Them.

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1 hour ago, frenin said:

I tend to lean with @sweetsunray here.

They were in Tyrosh for among time before Illyrio just took/bought... Them.

They were in Tyrosh. There is no doubt about that. Dany tells us so. How long were they there is unknown. From the clues both @sweetsunray and I spoke of it would point to the Martells involvement in their stay there. The clues also show the Archon's involvement. That doesn't tell us how they end up in Pentos under Illyrio's/Varys's control. The shift from a place controlled by Martell allies to one controlled by Varys and Illyrio is a major part of the backstory we can't really fill in as of yet. I would suspect Viserys's gullibility/vanity/mental instability plays a large role in the transition.

Edited by SFDanny

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1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

They were in Tyrosh. There is no doubt about that. Dany tells us so. How long were they there is unknown. From the clues both @sweetsunray and I spoke of it would point to the Martells involvement in their stay there. The clues also show the Archon's involvement. That doesn't tell us how they end up in Pentos under Illyrio's/Varys's control. The shift from a place controlled by Martell allies to one controlled by Varys and Illyrio is a major part of the backstory we can't really fill in as of yet. I would suspect Viserys's gullibility/vanity/mental instability plays a large role in the transition.

I think a likelier answer is that the Martells weren't really helping and the the Tyroshii just thought the Targ cause done for, so they just offered them to Illyrio.

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51 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think a likelier answer is that the Martells weren't really helping and the the Tyroshii just thought the Targ cause done for, so they just offered them to Illyrio.

Not really sure on what basis one could make that claim. Doran Martell is anything but indifferent to his own plots, and we know Viserys was central to them. I can believe his efforts to conceal his own hand put him at the disadvantage of putting the children in the hands of others who he had to work through. Doran is cautious to the extreme, but that doesn't mean he would simply do nothing to help support the Targaryens in their exile. He needed Viserys for his revenge of Elia and her children. He needed Viserys for his plot to put a Martell on the Iron Throne, Arianne's possible future son with Viserys. The idea he does nothing for the Targaryens just isn't supported by anything and everything we know.

Of course, that doesn't mean the Tyroshi don't have their own reasons for their actions. The Martell's and the Archon's alliance in these things could have broken, but the late interest of the Tyroshi, as indicated by the Archon's brother's attendance to the introduction of Daenerys to Khal Drogo seems to show a continued Tyroshi interest in the Targaryens. Was the Archon's brother there representing not only Tyroshi interest, but also those of the Martells as well? I don't know, and I don't think we can be sure at this point. But interest was there.

What we can be sure of is the Martells were no part of Varys's plots. The idea Sunspear would support allowing Viserys to wander off into the Dothraki Sea with only Ser Jorah and the whims of Khal Drogo as his protection runs counter to Doran's plots and his interests.

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On 11/23/2019 at 7:19 AM, Lord Varys said:

They never lived on the streets. That's people not understanding what being a 'beggar king' means - it means you live off the money of your hosts, other nobility and folk who actually are rich, not that you are actually a proper beggar living on the streets.

However, the issue still remains that it is ludicrous that Viserys III and his sister could have remained free people if they lost all protectors and servants as children.

The idea that Viserys III could walk around with his mother's crown and other valuables without a considerable number of sworn shields and bodyguards protecting his stuff is utterly nonsensical.

We know that when Darry died the servants made off with what valuables they had, so they should have lost the crown then. Viserys III didn't have the strength to stop even a woman from searching the house with the red door to take everything she could carry, much less grown men.

The idea that a guy who was forced to sell his mother's crown - the last valuable thing he had - would get the proper worth of the thing in coin is also not very likely. Rhaenyra sold her crown to get passage to Dragonstone. One assumes the money for Rhaella's crown wouldn't have been brought in much more profit.

And, sure, Dany got some education - either from Viserys III himself (who would have had some proper tutors while Darry was still around, and, of course, before at court and on Dragonstone) or from people he hired or from the magisters and such they stayed with.

The overall problem there is that they must have been taken in by somebody immediately after they lost the house, or else they wouldn't have survived. And possibly for some time, at least until Viserys III was older. Because he wouldn't have been able to survive as a 14-year-old all by himself, just as he wouldn't have as a 12-13-year-old.

I agree with most of this LV. I do wonder though whether or not we have seen the last of Rhaella's crown. If one wants to support the exiles, one way of doing so covertly would to buy items they had. The Martells would have an interest in Rhaella's crown that didn't include just owning a historical object. Having it to place on Arianne's head when she becomes the Queen of Westeros would provide a powerful interest to buy and protect the relic as well as cover to get coin to support the children into their hands. Just conjecture on my part, but with so much time between books we all have time for such thoughts.

Edited by SFDanny

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3 hours ago, SFDanny said:

They were in Tyrosh. There is no doubt about that. Dany tells us so. How long were they there is unknown. From the clues both @sweetsunray and I spoke of it would point to the Martells involvement in their stay there. The clues also show the Archon's involvement. That doesn't tell us how they end up in Pentos under Illyrio's/Varys's control. The shift from a place controlled by Martell allies to one controlled by Varys and Illyrio is a major part of the backstory we can't really fill in as of yet. I would suspect Viserys's gullibility/vanity/mental instability plays a large role in the transition.

Totally agreeing with you here. It's also the impression I got when Doran told Arianne about the significance of the Archon's daughter being at the water gardens. The Archon and Doran were in contact and were supporting them safely and secretly, having an agreement with one another, similarly to the one that they once had with the Sealord. I don't think Viserys was aware of this, given his age and attitude. I also suspect the same factors influenced Viserys to pack his things and sister and leave Tyrosh. The fact that Doran lost tabs on them both, implies imo that Viserys left Tyrosh without giving any info to the Archon.

To make the tidbits of info work imo Viserys at some point felt something was afoot, but him leaning towards paranoia prompted him to mistrust the Archon's intentions, and thus stole away himself and his sister.

His story is imo written to be one of missed opportunities beacuse of mistrusting the wrong people. He would have been perfectly safe at Pentos, but he could not trust the Dothraki to gift him back an army for Dany, and then pushed and pushed the issue until it got him killed. 

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I don't know that the Tyroshi or Doran were completely out of the picture in AGoT. When Dany goes to Drogo's manse (still weirded out that he had a manse at all), Illyrio shows her the brother of the Archon of Tyrosh, a man with a green beard. We obviously don't know if he would be the brother of the Archon whose daughter was fostered in Dorne, but his presence is noted.

I don't know if Viserys being an insufferable idiot would be the only reason these hosts would kick him and Dany out. Illyrio could easily paid them off to put their guests out. We have seen him try to bribe one of the Triarchs of Volantis. He and Varys could even have started rumors about Robert sending knives after Viserys and Dany.

It's possible Illyrio and Varys caught wind of the pact between Oberyn and Willem Darry. There could be more than one copy of it. The other one could have been Willem Darry's. We don't know what was done with his personal effects after he died. 

Illyrio and Varys have the Aegon plot going at the same time. Arianne and Viserys marrying works counter to their plans. 

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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In light of the fact that we know that the terms of Archons of Tyrosh are limited we have no basis to assume that Arianne's Archon and the Archon whose brother attended Dany's wedding are the same.

Even if they were - I'd not really make too much of that. Tyrosh is basically in Sunspear's backyard. If the Prince of Dorne wants a favor from the Archon he would likely oblige him - especially if his daughter and heir was his ward. After all, Viserys III would have definitely not been the ward/guest of the Archon at the time - because that would not escape Robert's attention and subsequently cause many problems for Doran.

It is more likely that Viserys III and Arianne would have been in the same city and then the Archon could arrange some sort of clandestine meeting.

4 hours ago, SFDanny said:

I agree with most of this LV. I do wonder though whether or not we have seen the last of Rhaella's crown. If one wants to support the exiles, one way of doing so covertly would to buy items they had. The Martells would have an interest in Rhaella's crown that didn't include just owning a historical object. Having it to place on Arianne's head when she becomes the Queen of Westeros would provide a powerful interest to buy and protect the relic as well as cover to get coin to support the children into their hands. Just conjecture on my part, but with so much time between books we all have time for such thoughts.

It would be a huge coincidence if some Martell agent had bought that crown - Viserys III must have been really desperate when he parted with that object, and it was likely at a point in time when the prospects for a Martell-Targaryen alliance were no longer looking as they were when Doran actually thought to hook up Viserys III and Arianne years ago.

George has confirmed that Varys/Illyrio have no clue about the Martell-Targaryen marriage pact, making it unlikely that Doran was involved to a high degree in the Varys/Illyrio plot.

What people here seem to think - that Viserys III somehow got support without knowing where it came or hung out with people he didn't know crucial things about (like who they were working for, or why they were supporting him) doesn't sound particularly likely for me. The man shows considerable paranoia in AGoT - he would not just trust money that came flying his way.

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11 hours ago, SFDanny said:

They were in Tyrosh. There is no doubt about that. Dany tells us so. How long were they there is unknown. From the clues both @sweetsunray and I spoke of it would point to the Martells involvement in their stay there. The clues also show the Archon's involvement. That doesn't tell us how they end up in Pentos under Illyrio's/Varys's control. The shift from a place controlled by Martell allies to one controlled by Varys and Illyrio is a major part of the backstory we can't really fill in as of yet. I would suspect Viserys's gullibility/vanity/mental instability plays a large role in the transition.

If there is truth to this idea, the death of the Sealord.  The Martells were in bed with the old Sealord.  The new SL cleaned house, fired Syrio, told his royal guests to pack up, and want no trouble with the Baratheons.  Varys and Illyrio guided them to Pentos. 

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In general keep in mind that Sealords serve for life, Archons of Tyrosh only for a term of unknown length. While we don't know whether Archons can be reelected, we do definitely know they can and are replaced.

I don't think the Sealord witnessing the marriage contract was particularly committed to the Targaryen cause. Just, say, not all that unfriendly. One could imagine him keeping Viserys III around until he came of age to ensure that they boy suffered no lasting harm and then give him the chance to find his way in the world.

In Tyrosh there could have been multiple Archons between the guy who was supposed to arrange the meeting between Arianne and Viserys III - or it might be still the same guy if there is a no term limit and the guy got himself reelected over the course of a decade and more. But we don't know that.

Edited by Lord Varys

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