Just Another R+L=D (and J) Theory - detailed

[corbon]

1 hour ago, 1908 said:

Why? 

Because the very absence of her eye colour being given is unusual. Why? Why give Griff's eye colour, but not hers for example? 
The only reason I can think why her eye colour would be consciously avoid by GRRM (if that is what he has done) is because its a too-easy clue to her identity. And we are given hints that she has a secret identity and has/is playing an important role in the fAegon conspiracy, despite Tyrion's early lack of interest in anything but her sexuality.

1 hour ago, 1908 said:

I always thought it was obvious that he meant Ned 

Why? There are literally no further clues in that passage. 

Well, actually, its easy to see why its 'obviously' Ned. We've been conditioned in earlier books to think of N+A as a possible thing, even though the clues weren't actually very good. Its only later in this book that we get more clues that give a very different picture.
 

Before ADwD I was firmly in the camp of a possible N+A relationship at Harrenhal. Afterward, with the information we have about Brandon, and from Barristan, its quite clear that if anything happened at Harrenhal between a Stark and Ashara, it was Brandon Stark. 

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One incident like that is not enough to make him hate Ned. Considering the type of people he is. 

Think about that. Its not 'one incident'. Its literally a life-changing event that destroyed the life of the woman he loved. She was a hand-maid to the crown princess, a young beauty at court, from a famous family with everything before her. Something happened at Harrenhal or shortly after and she looked to Stark. From there she is dismissed from court in disgrace, has a stillborn illegitimate child, and commits suicide. At least that is what Barristan believes.
If Ned was the father, and the Starks abandoned her, with Ned an un-promised second son and actually a fine match for both of them, you don't think Barristan would have significant ill-feelings for Ned?
And thats without the whole rebellion thing on top, the killing of Barristan's King, the murdering of the Targaryen children, etc etc, all of which Ned Stark s tarred with by association.

And then there's the other evidence, the mud-man fire-man thought that shows Barristan clearly doesn't believe Ashara Dayne 'chose' Ned Stark. And the evidence of Ned's own thoughts, which despite the memories, sadness and broken promises never once go to Ashara Dayne, the woman he supposedly loved, supposedly the mother of Jon Snow.

[Ygrain]

12 hours ago, 1908 said:

Actually the trail ended when Ned died. 

Eh... sorry but you need to do a little re-read. There the Knight of the Laughing Tree, there is a whole lot about Rhaegar, there keep reappearing the blue roses, there is Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it"... last but not least, there is GRRM saying that the show would have to adress Rhaegar and Lyanna and talking about a love-struck prince (see my sig). So of these accounts may be unreliable but as a whole, they are all pointing in the same direction.

11 hours ago, 1908 said:

I still think the "Too honorable Ned" is a shitty argument though. 

I'd say that this is basically a shortcut for saying that Ned was a good man who didn't lie, kept his promises and had a conscience.  Such a type of guy truly holds himself to his standards and is not a hypocrite about his failures.

11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t remember Sansa saying anything about Ashara? 

My bad, I didn't express myself clearly. Sansa never heard about Ashara (and neither did Arya) but she heard a whisper that Jon's mother was commonborn. The rumour mills about Jon apparently never stopped, only made damn sure Cat never heard again, and she apparently didn't because we never hear in her PoV such a reference.

11 hours ago, 1908 said:

I always thought it was obvious that he meant Ned 

One incident like that is not enough to make him hate Ned. Considering the type of people he is. 

To elaborate on what corbon has said: you must realise how strong social stigma was connected to losing virginity for noblewomen, and if this became known, Seven forbid along with pregnancy, she would never find a suitable match in her social ranks. Had Jon Arryn not needed Hoster's swords, he would never have married Lysa, who came into the marriage "soiled". Thus, if Ned had slept with Ashara at HH and not married her, it would have made him a total scum - yet, neither Barristan nor his own conscience ever reproach him for failing to do his duty to Ashara.

On the other hand, we hear from Barbrey Dustin's own mouth that Brandon was not shy about what he wanted, even if that was a maiden daughter of his father's vassal, who he knew he wouldn't be able to marry as he had been promised to Cat.  So, between Ned who never harmed anyone and sought his gods after executing a criminal, and Brandon who had no qualms breaking social taboos, which Stark was more likely to have a fling with Ashara and not give a damn about what happened to her? And would Barristan go into such length as to defend Ned before Dany if Ned hadn't done right by Ashara?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Ygrain said:

My bad, I didn't express myself clearly. Sansa never heard about Ashara (and neither did Arya) but she heard a whisper that Jon's mother was commonborn. The rumour mills about Jon apparently never stopped, only made damn sure Cat never heard again, and she apparently didn't because we never hear in her PoV such a reference.

Gotcha. I was referring specifically to the rumours about Ashara. My post probably wasn’t very clear. 

[1908]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Eh... sorry but you need to do a little re-read. There the Knight of the Laughing Tree, there is a whole lot about Rhaegar, there keep reappearing the blue roses, there is Barristan's "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it"... last but not least, there is GRRM saying that the show would have to adress Rhaegar and Lyanna and talking about a love-struck prince (see my sig). So of these accounts may be unreliable but as a whole, they are all pointing in the same direction.

All these tell us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, which was already known. 

They didn't add anything new to R+L =J. That's why I said the trail went cold. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

15 hours ago, corbon said:

Because the very absence of her eye colour being given is unusual. Why? Why give Griff's eye colour, but not hers for example? 

Because her eyes are nothing out of the ordinary. Tyrion talks about Aegon's eye color and the other person with purple eyes he encounters is Sweets and he gives us the eye color, which he incidentally describes as violet, the same color as Ashara's in Catelyn's POV.

And we get a description of Griff's eye color because Tyrion doesn't like them. Tyrion doesn't like pale eyes because they remind him of Tywin.

I do not like his eyes, Tyrion reflected when the sellsword sat down across from him in the dimness of the boat's interior, with a scarred plank table and a tallow candle btween them. They were ice blue, pale, cold. The dwarf misliked pale eyes. Lord Tywin's eyes had been pale green and flecked with gold. (Tyrion III, ADwD 8)

[1908]

13 hours ago, corbon said:

And then there's the other evidence, the mud-man fire-man thought that shows Barristan clearly doesn't believe Ashara Dayne 'chose' Ned Stark.

I think it's a bit too much to use "clearly". Nothing is clear yet. 

Linking Barristan's fire and mud comments about Dany to only

Ashara is a bit of a stretch. 

Barristan is over 60 years old and has seen a lot. He has known a lot more ladies than Dany and Ashara in his life time and even if he doesn't care about them, he has seen their choices. 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

And the evidence of Ned's own thoughts, which despite the memories, sadness and broken promises never once go to Ashara Dayne, the woman he supposedly loved, supposedly the mother of Jon Snow

True. 

But you just said it's possible GRRM removed Lemore's eyes intentionally. Maybe he omitted Ashara from Ned's thoughts. 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, 1908 said:

All these tell us that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, which was already known. 

They didn't add anything new to R+L =J. That's why I said the trail went cold. 

Ah, I see. If they are not new, though, they are getting more explicit. In AGOT, you could only connect the dots while the official story was that Lyanna was raped, but in ADWD, it's spelled black on white that Rhaegar loved her, and there is a steady amount of details fleshing out the whole story, such as Lyanna being the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

1 hour ago, 1908 said:

I think it's a bit too much to use "clearly". Nothing is clear yet. 

Linking Barristan's fire and mud comments about Dany to only

Ashara is a bit of a stretch. 

How so? Barristan makes a generalised statement about young girls, who always fall for the wrong guy. Ashara was a young girl, and given her fate, apparently had fallen for a wrong guy, which makes him a fire-man, not mud. Which is what Ned was - plain-faced, solemn, shy; compared to the dashing Brandon,  a disappointment even for a level-headed Cat.

1 hour ago, 1908 said:

But you just said it's possible GRRM removed Lemore's eyes intentionally. Maybe he omitted Ashara from Ned's thoughts. 

Which is why I claim this would be bad writing, and it's not even what GRRM does - he veils the truth in plain sight, just like he did with Rhaegar and Lyanna. He could have inserted some highly cryptic references to roads not taken, a failing to do his duty that haunts him since and that's why he has vowed to himself never to fail again. It could have been done pretty easily and we wouldn't be sure if this refers to Lyanna or Ashara or something else. 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

How so? Barristan makes a generalised statement about young girls, who always fall for the wrong guy. Ashara was a young girl, and given her fate, apparently had fallen for a wrong guy, which makes him a fire-man, not mud. Which is what Ned was - plain-faced, solemn, shy; compared to the dashing Brandon,  a disappointment even for a level-headed Cat.

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Is it?? Given Ned, Brandon and Ashara's fates, it could really apply to absolutely everyone and by the time they both  met in Starfall Ned could've perfectly become the destructive fire that would eventually end her life. 

 

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

To elaborate on what corbon has said: you must realise how strong social stigma was connected to losing virginity for noblewomen, and if this became known, Seven forbid along with pregnancy, she would never find a suitable match in her social ranks. Had Jon Arryn not needed Hoster's swords, he would never have married Lysa, who came into the marriage "soiled". Thus, if Ned had slept with Ashara at HH and not married her, it would have made him a total scum - yet, neither Barristan nor his own conscience ever reproach him for failing to do his duty to Ashara.

On the other hand, we hear from Barbrey Dustin's own mouth that Brandon was not shy about what he wanted, even if that was a maiden daughter of his father's vassal, who he knew he wouldn't be able to marry as he had been promised to Cat.  So, between Ned who never harmed anyone and sought his gods after executing a criminal, and Brandon who had no qualms breaking social taboos, which Stark was more likely to have a fling with Ashara and not give a damn about what happened to her? And would Barristan go into such length as to defend Ned before Dany if Ned hadn't done right by Ashara?

I don't know why Barri B has to do with this, he clearly don't approve the whole Rhaegar and Lyana shenanigans and he still thinks the man was great, Ned was a great and honorable man and whether Ned and Ashara banged, Ned brought down his precious Rhaegar or that he fathered a bastard, that obviously didn't change his  opinion if him.

Btw, when Brandon and Barbs first banged, he wasn't bethrothed to anyone, the last time they did it, when "Brandon told her that he never loved her, i swear" was when he was bethrothed and that seems to have been the end of their relationship. Nor Barri B feels that Ashara was owed anything by both Starks.

 

Losing virginity is a social stigma if you care about it,  we don't have a reason to believe Ned ever did and if Ashara cared about that, Ashara may perectly not being virgin when it happened, otherwise Brandon would've pretty much forced her since i think it's cleasr that Brandon couldn't and wouldn't break his bethrothal, that or Ashara was more gullible than AGOT Sansa. If for both Ashara and Ned the virginity thing, if there was, was not a big deal is clear that they would've gone for it, the pregnancy sure as hell would've complicated everything but by the time Ned found out, and if both believed it was his or if she was pregnant at all, he was long married to Cat, i don't believed that either she was pregnant or they were ever in love,  just that they had a good night at HH and after that they both kept on with their lives until the war changed everything forevermore, i certainly don't think that whatever they had or hadn't was enough to hang up for 15 years, Ned didn't even rember the faces of the men who died for him in the ToJ after 15 years. Btw who in Dorne would've turned down Ashara Dayne because she wasn't a Virgin?

And Ned is human, body and flesh, Ned is not a statement, if 18 year old unattached and very possibly drunk had had an opportunity with Ashara he would've taken it, the idea that he was too noble for that seems simply hilarious to me, characters are people, not NPCs raised to be symbols.

[Ygrain]

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is it?? Given Ned, Brandon and Ashara's fates, it could really apply to absolutely everyone and by the time they both  met in Starfall Ned could've perfectly become the destructive fire that would eventually end her life. 

 

I think you are mixing two things - consequences of someone's actions, and personality. Even a good person can bring disaster into someone's life, even if they don't want to. That's, however, not what Barristan means by his fire x mud: he is speaking about a type of person who seems very attractive for young girls because he's handsome, self-confident and charming, but is not good for them (mostly because being a selfish, uncaring ass). And that's definitely not Ned.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't know why Barri B has to do with this, he clearly don't approve the whole Rhaegar and Lyana shenanigans and he still thinks the man was great, Ned was a great and honorable man and whether Ned and Ashara banged, Ned brought down his precious Rhaegar or that he fathered a bastard, that obviously didn't change his  opinion if him.

Again mixing stuff together. Ned fought a war against Rhaegar but he never acted dishonorably or committed atrocities, he was an enemy one could respect and he wasn't even the one who killed Rhaegar - absolutely no reason why Barry should hold a grudge for that. Banging Ashara per se wouldn't be such a problem, either, the problem was what followed - Ashara got pregnant, the guy who had impregnated her didn't marry her, and it became publically known that she was pregnant. By the Westerosi standards, she was "soiled" and no self-respecting noble would ever marry her - in other words, the guy who slept with her effectively ruined her life. If she slept with a married or promised man, marriage was not an option, of course, but Ned was neither, and if it was him, it would mean he didn't do what he both should and could have done and he destroyed Ashara's life even though it could have been prevented. As for Ned's own bastard: first, there is huge double standard for men and women; second, Ned went to greated length than any other guy to take care for Jon; third, it is not clear if Barry even knew about Jon's existence.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Btw, when Brandon and Barbs first banged, he wasn't bethrothed to anyone, the last time they did it, when "Brandon told her that he never loved her, i swear" was when he was bethrothed and that seems to have been the end of their relationship.

Ahem... you do realize that this hangs on Brandon telling the truth to the girl he wanted to bang, right? The betrothal took place when Cat was twelve, which makes Brandon 14-15 at the time. It is possible that he affair with Barbrey started as early as then, but his remarks about a blody sword or a sword sharp enough to shave a woman's cunt do not sound much like the talk of such a young boy. Also, it is not clear if their last night together was the one when Brandon told her:

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together"

That's not one piece of information but two - 1) Brandon was to marry Cat, and 2) he never wanted Cat. Only 2) is firmly dated, though. - And end of the relationship or not, Brandon still banged her at least once knowing he wouldn't be able to marry her. Plus, the day Barbrey learned absolutely does not equal the day Brandon learned. Just saying.

 

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Nor Barri B feels that Ashara was owed anything by both Starks.

If it was a Stark who slept with Ashara at HH, then, in Barry's eyes, the guy dishonoured her. Are you sure this doesn't mean, in Barry's eyes, the guy didn't do right by her?

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

Losing virginity is a social stigma if you care about it,  we don't have a reason to believe Ned ever did and if Ashara cared about that, Ashara may perectly not being virgin when it happened, otherwise Brandon would've pretty much forced her since i think it's cleasr that Brandon couldn't and wouldn't break his bethrothal, that or Ashara was more gullible than AGOT Sansa. If for both Ashara and Ned the virginity thing, if there was, was not a big deal is clear that they would've gone for it, the pregnancy sure as hell would've complicated everything but by the time Ned found out, and if both believed it was his or if she was pregnant at all, he was long married to Cat, i don't believed that either she was pregnant or they were ever in love,  just that they had a good night at HH and after that they both kept on with their lives until the war changed everything forevermore, i certainly don't think that whatever they had or hadn't was enough to hang up for 15 years, Ned didn't even rember the faces of the men who died for him in the ToJ after 15 years. Btw who in Dorne would've turned down Ashara Dayne because she wasn't a Virgin?

These are outright misconceptions. First and foremost, GRRM himself stated that although Dorne is more free-spirited, Arianne and Oberyn are absolutely not the standard and noblewomen are expected to be maidens just like anywhere else (plus, not being a virgin and giving birth to a bastard are two very different cups of tea). Even if Ashara herself or her family didn't care, the rest of Westeros, sadly, did. Ned definitely would have cared - just take a look what Robb, who was brought up with Ned's standards, considered as the only possible course of action to preserve Jeyne's honour. So, no, Ned wouldn't have let Ashara face the stigma, and there was enough time between Harrenhal and the start of Rebellion and his marriage to Cat to do right by Ashara. As for Ned just having a good night - no. Just no. He says right in his very first PoV that he is not the type of guy for casual sex, and this is again reflected in Robert's comment what a special girl Wylla must have been to make Ned forget about his moral standards. And fifteen years or not, Ashara's reputation was ruined and she committed suicide soon after the two of them talked. Don't tell me this is on the same level as someone's facial features.

28 minutes ago, frenin said:

And Ned is human, body and flesh, Ned is not a statement, if 18 year old unattached and very possibly drunk had had an opportunity with Ashara he would've taken it, the idea that he was too noble for that seems simply hilarious to me, characters are people, not NPCs raised to be symbols.

See above. And believe it or not, some people do hold themselves to high standards even when they are young.

[Frey family reunion]

On 12/5/2019 at 1:28 PM, Ygrain said:

Come on. We're two thirds into the story, and the trail of breadcrumbs for RLJ is getting stronger and stronger, with no contradicting information presented. What we're lacking is a couple of how/when/where/etc., not the core.

Actually we're given a big contradictory tale (at least as to Jon's parentage) which everyone here seems more than happy to ignore.

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The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down.  They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly.  Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I think you are mixing two things - consequences of someone's actions, and personality. Even a good person can bring disaster into someone's life, even if they don't want to. That's, however, not what Barristan means by his fire x mud: he is speaking about a type of person who seems very attractive for young girls because he's handsome, self-confident and charming, but is not good for them (mostly because being a selfish, uncaring ass). And that's definitely not Ned.

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Oh yeah, you're i misrember.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Again mixing stuff together. Ned fought a war against Rhaegar but he never acted dishonorably or committed atrocities, he was an enemy one could respect and he wasn't even the one who killed Rhaegar - absolutely no reason why Barry should hold a grudge for that. Banging Ashara per se wouldn't be such a problem, either, the problem was what followed - Ashara got pregnant, the guy who had impregnated her didn't marry her, and it became publically known that she was pregnant. By the Westerosi standards, she was "soiled" and no self-respecting noble would ever marry her - in other words, the guy who slept with her effectively ruined her life. If she slept with a married or promised man, marriage was not an option, of course, but Ned was neither, and if it was him, it would mean he didn't do what he both should and could have done and he destroyed Ashara's life even though it could have been prevented. As for Ned's own bastard: first, there is huge double standard for men and women; second, Ned went to greated length than any other guy to take care for Jon; third, it is not clear if Barry even knew about Jon's existence.

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Ned not only rebelled against his King but was vital in bringing his dynasty downfall. there is a good reason fot Barri B holding a grudge and Barri B don't hold a grudge against anyone there, neither her, nor the Stark brothers.

 

When it was known that Ashara became pregnant, again if that ever happened, the war would've already started, Brandon would've been long dead and Ned would've been in his way to Winterfell or rushing to Riverrun, he wouln't simply have a time to catch a break, I think that if Barri B could understand Ned's role in Rhaegar's fall, he could understand that as well.

The idea that not a self respecting noble wouls ever marry her, where it comes?? Do you know if the Dornish care about that before making such statements?? If the doors were close to her even in Dorne, then that would be a very serious matter, if just the rest of people outside Dorne didn't see as a marriage material, we should ask her first if she ever cared about that in the first place,  because then no, Ned would've hardly destroyed her life.

 

I know there is a huge double standards for men and women but even then, men who father bastards aren't considered the paragon of honor, Ned's care for Jon is out of norm, but not unseen nor do i know what has that to do with Barri B opinion about him nor we have a reason to believe that Barri B would care if Ned treated Jon as a son, Barri B has to know about Jon's existence, Robert knew and the man is the Lord Commander of his KG, the whole Jon thing is source of gossip from the Wall to Dorne, the odds that he didn't know that Ned had a bastard are close to zero.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

These are outright misconceptions. First and foremost, GRRM himself stated that although Dorne is more free-spirited, Arianne and Oberyn are absolutely not the standard and noblewomen are expected to be maidens just like anywhere else (plus, not being a virgin and giving birth to a bastard are two very different cups of tea). Even if Ashara herself or her family didn't care, the rest of Westeros, sadly, did. Ned definitely would have cared - just take a look what Robb, who was brought up with Ned's standards, considered as the only possible course of action to preserve Jeyne's honour. So, no, Ned wouldn't have let Ashara face the stigma, and there was enough time between Harrenhal and the start of Rebellion and his marriage to Cat to do right by Ashara. As for Ned just having a good night - no. Just no. He says right in his very first PoV that he is not the type of guy for casual sex, and this is again reflected in Robert's comment what a special girl Wylla must have been to make Ned forget about his moral standards. And fifteen years or not, Ashara's reputation was ruined and she committed suicide soon after the two of them talked. Don't tell me this is on the same level as someone's facial features.

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I know that they are not the Dorne and i do kow that Dorne is not Sodoma, i've argued against that for years but i have ever seen in any regards about noblewomen having paramours, the Fowler twins thing isn't exactly a secret, not iirc we have any time in which a noblewomen is chastized for her behaviour.

Ned would have never done what Robb did, that's the thing between being a person and constantly trying to mimic a myth, from HH to his marriage with Cat there were what 4-5 months, months in which  Ned could have not simply catched a break, how could he??

I don't remember Ned's comment about casual sex but i do remember the conversation between Robert and Ned about Wylla, both of them were talking about Ned cheating on Cat, not about a bachelor Ned having fun, there is absolutely nothing dishonorable in a bachelor having fun.

I don't see Ashara's name being bersmiched, not that in Dorne people care about that or they care about not virgin noblewomen, nor that i think why on earth should be more mportant to Ned Ashara's death than  those who died for him in that Tower and yes, those men weren't only his best pals, Ned had fought and bled beside them, him not remembering his faces is pretty telling, times passes for everyone.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

See above. And believe it or not, some people do hold themselves to high standards even when they are young.

Some people do, Robb do, but Robb was following a myth, there is no reason to believe that Ned was ever that rigid, i'm not saying that Ned was Robert's perfect wingman, i'm saying that the idea that he waited till marriage don't seem really believable

[corbon]

19 hours ago, 1908 said:

I think it's a bit too much to use "clearly". Nothing is clear yet. 

I think it is very clear if you actually examine the text closely and look at what it says.

19 hours ago, 1908 said:

Linking Barristan's fire and mud comments about Dany to only

Ashara is a bit of a stretch. 

Not only to Ashara. To every young woman of Barristan's experience. Ashara just happens to be one of them (the only other one we really know about to be honest).

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Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least. That one is his father's son. Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful … but not the sort to make a young girl's heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first—else she would never have wed Hizdahr zo Loraq—but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud.

You could make a poultice out of mud to cool a fever. You could plant seeds in mud and grow a crop to feed your children. Mud would nourish you, where fire would only consume you, but fools and children and young girls would choose fire every time.

The quote is clearly, yes clearly, talking about the type of man chosen by young girls. Between a nourishing, supporting (boring) man - which is exactly how Ned is, or an exciting, firey, ultimately destructive man - like Brandon.
Now, we don't really know much about Barristan's general experience with young girls. Just Dany. But there must be others before her for him to have this general opinion. 
The only other we actually know about for sure, is Ashara. The young woman who was at court and he was secretly in love with. The young woman who was dishonoured and disgraced, who bore a stillborn daughter (he thinks). Who apparently was so destroyed she committed suicide. Who, for his observation to make any sense at all, must have chosen fire (and been burned - hey, what do you know, she was burned!) rather than mud.

19 hours ago, 1908 said:

Barristan is over 60 years old and has seen a lot. He has known a lot more ladies than Dany and Ashara in his life time and even if he doesn't care about them, he has seen their choices. 

Sure. And his experience is that the young ones ALWAYS choose fire instead of mud.
Ashara's just the only other one we actually know about. He can't possibly thing young girls ALWAYS choose fire if Ashara didn't choose fire. And she did get burned.

19 hours ago, 1908 said:

But you just said it's possible GRRM removed Lemore's eyes intentionally. Maybe he omitted Ashara from Ned's thoughts. 

I said he may have. It may be a clue. He even provided himself with an excuse - Tyrion was ogling Lemore's naked body when he described her for us, so not remarking on her eye colour is kind of forgivable, or unsurprising at least.

Ommitting Ashara, if she is Jon;s mother and Ned loved her, is a much bigger deal over a much longer and more involved and connected period. Not the same thing.
 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Actually we're given a big contradictory tale (at least as to Jon's parentage) which everyone here seems more than happy to ignore.

 

As already discussed, not ignored. Assessed, found wanting, worked into the narrative as best fits. 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned not only rebelled against his King but was vital in bringing his dynasty downfall. there is a good reason fot Barri B holding a grudge and Barri B don't hold a grudge against anyone there, neither her, nor the Stark brothers.

The rebellion was perhaps not without honour. Nor choice really. Given Barristan's acceptance of Robert's pardon, its not really a surprise he holds no grudges for that.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

When it was known that Ashara became pregnant, again if that ever happened, the war would've already started,

Possibly, but I think not. There is no indication that Ashara was at court much after Harrenhal. Its likely her pregnancy became apparent well before the war as the best timelines have Harrenhal 6 months to a year before the war. And that assumes that her disgrace was only from the pregnancy and not known earlier.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Brandon would've been long dead and Ned would've been in his way to Winterfell or rushing to Riverrun, he wouln't simply have a time to catch a break,

I don;t think thats accurate at all. Ashara had time to "look to Stark", whatever exactly that means.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I think that if Barri B could understand Ned's role in Rhaegar's fall, he could understand that as well.

An honourable civil war against a mad king who murdered your family and called for your innocent head is one thing.

Utterly destroying the life of the woman Barristan loved, for no reason, with all the capability in the word to avoid that, is another thing entirely

10 hours ago, frenin said:

The idea that not a self respecting noble wouls ever marry her, where it comes?? Do you know if the Dornish care about that before making such statements?? If the doors were close to her even in Dorne, then that would be a very serious matter, if just the rest of people outside Dorne didn't see as a marriage material, we should ask her first if she ever cared about that in the first place,  because then no, Ned would've hardly destroyed her life.

She "looked to Stark". She was dishonoured at Harrenhal. She was disgraced from her position at court. She committed suicide.
Yes, her life was destroyed.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I know that they are not the Dorne and i do kow that Dorne is not Sodoma, i've argued against that for years but i have ever seen in any regards about noblewomen having paramours, the Fowler twins thing isn't exactly a secret, not iirc we have any time in which a noblewomen is chastized for her behaviour.

 

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But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned would have never done what Robb did, that's the thing between being a person and constantly trying to mimic a myth, from HH to his marriage with Cat there were what 4-5 months, months in which  Ned could have not simply catched a break, how could he??

No, there's a much longer period between Harraenhal and Ned's marriage. But regardless, Ashara was dishonoured at Harrenhal and had time to look to Stark, so if it was Ned he could have done something about it then, but didn't.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't remember Ned's comment about casual sex but i do remember the conversation between Robert and Ned about Wylla, both of them were talking about Ned cheating on Cat, not about a bachelor Ned having fun, there is absolutely nothing dishonorable in a bachelor having fun.

No.

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"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

Robert complains Ned was never like that and Robert thinks that Ned slipping up with Jon's mother (whom he never met and therefore doesn't actually know whether Ned really did slip up with her or not) was a one time thing for Ned.

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Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark. Yet Ned could not help but notice that those pleasures were taking a toll on the king. Robert was breathing heavily by the time they reached the bottom of the stairs, his face red in the lantern light as they stepped out into the darkness of the crypt.

In Ned's own thoughts he's not a man who takes his pleasures - which include casual sex with willing women.

And whether it was Ned or not, for Ashara, there was dishonour and disgrace at Harrenhal, and eventually, as far as Barristan knows, suicide.
 

10 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't see Ashara's name being bersmiched, not that in Dorne people care about that or they care about not virgin noblewomen,

Barristan flatly tells us she was dishonoured. She had a position at court and then wasn't at court any more. And finally she committed suicide.
You are free to think that she was not besmirched.

10 hours ago, frenin said:

Some people do, Robb do, but Robb was following a myth, there is no reason to believe that Ned was ever that rigid, i'm not saying that Ned was Robert's perfect wingman, i'm saying that the idea that he waited till marriage don't seem really believable

Robert thinks so. Ned thinks so. Its not exactly hard for a man with some character. Frankly, I rather think Ned tends to overdo that side of things as a natural reaction to his older brother's excesses.

[Ygrain]

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Ned not only rebelled against his King but was vital in bringing his dynasty downfall. there is a good reason fot Barri B holding a grudge and Barri B don't hold a grudge against anyone there, neither her, nor the Stark brothers.

You seem not to grasp the idea of a honorable enemy. Barristan decided to bend the knee to Robert, as in, Robert's Rebellion, because he perceived him as a honorable man worthy of his service. And although he tries to go by "guard the king, not judge him", he knows very well that Aerys brought it on himself.

 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

When it was known that Ashara became pregnant, again if that ever happened,

Any textual support that Ashara faked a pregnancy? Because to my best knowledge, the text says otherwise. There may be doubt if she did commit suicide as the body was never found, there may be doubt if her child was actually stillborn as this is not a first-hand account, but the claim of different sources that she had a baby outside wedlock and this is consistent with her not being at the court any more.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

the war would've already started, Brandon would've been long dead and Ned would've been in his way to Winterfell or rushing to Riverrun, he wouln't simply have a time to catch a break, I think that if Barri B could understand Ned's role in Rhaegar's fall, he could understand that as well.

As @corbon stated, the rebellion didn't break out right after HH, so there would have been enough time to do the right thing.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

The idea that not a self respecting noble wouls ever marry her, where it comes?? Do you know if the Dornish care about that before making such statements?? If the doors were close to her even in Dorne, then that would be a very serious matter, if just the rest of people outside Dorne didn't see as a marriage material, we should ask her first if she ever cared about that in the first place,  because then no, Ned would've hardly destroyed her life.

We are not dealing with Dornish standards but with Barristan's, as the basis of his assessment of the guy who got his crush pregnant. Because Ashara:

- lost her place at the court

- no-one married her even though she was a hottie from a highly esteemed family

- lost her baby

- committed suicide

Don't tell me that if this happened to your crush (or at least, this being what you believed happened to her)  would provoke no hard feeling towards the guy who got her into that trouble. Not being able to prevent Ashara's downfall haunts Barristan even after all those years, so Eddard Stark definitely wouldn't get a free pass for that.

 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

I know that they are not the Dorne and i do kow that Dorne is not Sodoma, i've argued against that for years but i have ever seen in any regards about noblewomen having paramours, the Fowler twins thing isn't exactly a secret, not iirc we have any time in which a noblewomen is chastized for her behaviour.

When you have an example of a noblewoman giving birth to a bastard, let me know.

11 hours ago, frenin said:

why on earth should be more mportant to Ned Ashara's death than  those who died for him in that Tower and yes, those men weren't only his best pals, Ned had fought and bled beside them, him not remembering his faces is pretty telling, times passes for everyone.

He may not  recall their faces but their deaths keep haunting him. As in, emotional impact seems kinda more important than visual facts. And emotional impact with Ashara's dishonor and suicide is what we are talking about here.

 

11 hours ago, frenin said:

Some people do, Robb do, but Robb was following a myth, there is no reason to believe that Ned was ever that rigid, i'm not saying that Ned was Robert's perfect wingman, i'm saying that the idea that he waited till marriage don't seem really believable

Except that it's exactly what the man himself as well as his bestie tell you.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, corbon said:

The rebellion was perhaps not without honour. Nor choice really. Given Barristan's acceptance of Robert's pardon, its not really a surprise he holds no grudges for that.

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Barri B is shamed of that and we know his wished outcome, woul he let that go so easily?? We don't knoe but at this point we are drawing the line wherever it suits our argument.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

Possibly, but I think not. There is no indication that Ashara was at court much after Harrenhal. Its likely her pregnancy became apparent well before the war as the best timelines have Harrenhal 6 months to a year before the war. And that assumes that her disgrace was only from the pregnancy and not known earlier.

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I  think it can't be otherwise, the whole abduction thing happens around a month after HH, after that everything was a rush.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

I don;t think thats accurate at all. Ashara had time to "look to Stark", whatever exactly that means.

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Ashara looking to Stark is Ashara banging/falling with a Stark in HH, not Ashara  writing desperate letters to Winterfell.

 

2 hours ago, corbon said:

An honourable civil war against a mad king who murdered your family and called for your innocent head is one thing.

Utterly destroying the life of the woman Barristan loved, for no reason, with all the capability in the word to avoid that, is another thing entirely

We have yet to see that Barri B considers the Robellion honorable,  we don't know if her life was utterly destroyed, nor that any of the Starks had any capability to avoid that, how?? Rickard was dead, Brandon was dead, Eddad at war following Robert's crazy footsteps, how could they??

 

3 hours ago, corbon said:

No, there's a much longer period between Harraenhal and Ned's marriage. But regardless, Ashara was dishonoured at Harrenhal and had time to look to Stark, so if it was Ned he could have done something about it then, but didn't.

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As i said before, both the dishonoring and the looking to Stark are the same thing, Ashara falling or anging a Stark, especially because Barry B wonders that if he had won Ashara  would've looked to him and not Stark. There can't be more than 6 months since Harrenhall and Ned's marriage, i find it incredibly unlikely he had a time to do anything byt what he did.

He couldn't do anything, nor Brandon who was dead.

 

 

3 hours ago, corbon said:

No.

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3 hours ago, corbon said:

Robert complains Ned was never like that and Robert thinks that Ned slipping up with Jon's mother (whom he never met and therefore doesn't actually know whether Ned really did slip up with her or not) was a one time thing for Ned.

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A plausible and likely answer is that perhaps Robert didn't know about that, both of them are talking about Ned's cheating tho.

3 hours ago, corbon said:

In Ned's own thoughts he's not a man who takes his pleasures - which include casual sex with willing women.

And whether it was Ned or not, for Ashara, there was dishonour and disgrace at Harrenhal, and eventually, as far as Barristan knows, suicide.

Having sex one time, because you really really have the hots for someone,  don't make you  Robert or Aegon  IV,there is a huge gap between both things and you can have done the first and still considering what Robert do an excess. 

We don't know if there were disgrace.

 

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Barristan flatly tells us she was dishonoured. She had a position at court and then wasn't at court any more. And finally she committed suicide.
You are free to think that she was not besmirched.

Being dishonored can have so many meanings in that context and, more specifically, in the mind of  Barri B... dishonor is just having sex prior marriage and he just thinks Ashara was dishonored by that, not that she was slut shamed, forced to the walk of shame and chastized, we only know that she left the Red Keep at some point, we don't have any context about that, we know that she killed herself, we don't know why, perhaps she couldn't bear the loss of her brother?? We don't know.

 

3 hours ago, corbon said:

Robert thinks so. Ned thinks so. Its not exactly hard for a man with some character. Frankly, I rather think Ned tends to overdo that side of things as a natural reaction to his older brother's excesses.

Robert and Ned thinks he wasn't a chad, there is a difference there, Ned never once has shown any disquiet about his big bro's doings.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You seem not to grasp the idea of a honorable enemy. Barristan decided to bend the knee to Robert, as in, Robert's Rebellion, because he perceived him as a honorable man worthy of his service. And although he tries to go by "guard the king, not judge him", he knows very well that Aerys brought it on himself.

 

And the rest of his family?? One could argue that just as Aerys his heir absolutely brought it on himself, yet he don't think that,  I  know what an honorable enemy is, but Barri B always was a loyalist in heart i find really curious that he could pass one thing and forgive the other.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

We are not dealing with Dornish standards but with Barristan's, as the basis of his assessment of the guy who got his crush pregnant. Because Ashara:

- lost her place at the court

- no-one married her even though she was a hottie from a highly esteemed family

- lost her baby

- committed suicide

Don't tell me that if this happened to your crush (or at least, this being what you believed happened to her)  would provoke no hard feeling towards the guy who got her into that trouble. Not being able to prevent Ashara's downfall haunts Barristan even after all those years, so Eddard Stark definitely wouldn't get a free pass for that.

We're dealing with everyone's standards here, we could deal with Barri B's standards... if we know what Barri B thought about all that, we don't. 

- We don't know if she lost her place at court.

-If sh was pregnant i doubt that no one is going to marry her... while pregnant,  everyone would make that decision after she had given birth. If she was not, pergaps she was ready to marry yet??

- True.

- True.

 

If that was on her volition, i wouldn't, Barri B don't hate, as far as we know, any of the Stark brothers, people just assume  he should do, but the only one Barri B blames over all that is himself,  no Stark got her in any trouble, Ashara did, that's why i think Barri B don't think ill of any Stark, at the end of the day, their action was no different of what he ¿thinks? happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Any textual support that Ashara faked a pregnancy? Because to my best knowledge, the text says otherwise. There may be doubt if she did commit suicide as the body was never found, there may be doubt if her child was actually stillborn as this is not a first-hand account, but the claim of different sources that she had a baby outside wedlock and this is consistent with her not being at the court any more.

Quote

Not really, i just find odd that there is only gossip, Ned and Ashara had a fling at HH,  Ashara left the Red Keep somehow sometime, Ned goes to Starfall to  ¿ see her-talk to her? deliver the sword, Ned left with a baby, Ashara kills herself.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

When you have an example of a noblewoman giving birth to a bastard, let me know.

Quote

That's a very silly fallacy,  you claimed that Dorne would turn on her, yet there is no prove about that but your belief that Dorne would turn on her... because the rest of Westeros  would turn on her, i'm not arguing that it would be a scandal but there is a difference between scandal and the utterly destroyed life you seem to be keen on painting, no one remembers a disgraced Ashara, the only "evidence", we have about that is naive Barri B  thinking she was dishonored by having sex.

Ofc that could happen and i'll be the first in saying you told me so if that happens to be true but at this point, there are more fanfics than textual evidence.

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

He may not  recall their faces but their deaths keep haunting him. As in, emotional impact seems kinda more important than visual facts. And emotional impact with Ashara's dishonor and suicide is what we are talking about here.

 

Theirr faces is a very clear sign that even that is fading but why would've Ned felt any sorry for both the dishonor, if that was done on their own volition, and a suicide we don't even know he was the  cause??

A fling is just that, Ned may have felt sorry for a year, or not at all, but he would eventually moved on, there is no reason to believe that Ashara should've left a lasting emotional impact if for Ned Ashara wasn't more than a very pretty girl, she hooked up with 16 years  ago, yes, even if Ned's not the Robert type. The faces is a clear sign,  he says that even those he had sworn toremember forever fades with time, those men seemed to have been more important to him than Ashara ever was, so no, i don't think Ned would've hung up for more than a decade over her dishonor and suicide.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Except that it's exactly what the man himself as well as his bestie tell you.

Is he?? Both argue that he wasn't a chad, not a nun.

 

 

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I  think it can't be otherwise, the whole abduction thing happens around a month after HH, after that everything was a rush.

Incorrect. That's the timing for the return of cold weather. The timing of the abduction is not known, we only that Rhaegar left for a journey that would "ultimately lead him back to the riverlands". Doesn't say how much time passed in between. George's original time estimate between HH and the abduction was about a year, and even though that seems more condensed now, there is still more time than you claim.

 

Quote

Being dishonored can have so many meanings in that context and, more specifically, in the mind of  Barri B... dishonor is just having sex prior marriage and he just thinks Ashara was dishonored by that, not that she was slut shamed, forced to the walk of shame and chastized, we only know that she left the Red Keep at some point, we don't have any context about that, we know that she killed herself, we don't know why, perhaps she couldn't bear the loss of her brother?? We don't know.

But of course we do, through Sansa's TWOW POV:

""Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?" She pulled her fingers from his grasp. "Would you dishonor me that way?"

 

Quote

And the rest of his family?? One could argue that just as Aerys his heir absolutely brought it on himself, yet he don't think that,  I  know what an honorable enemy is, but Barri B always was a loyalist in heart i find really curious that he could pass one thing and forgive the other.

Go through his chapters again then.

Quote

We're dealing with everyone's standards here, we could deal with Barri B's standards... if we know what Barri B thought about all that, we don't. 

We're dealing with Barristan's standards in his own PoV, which happen, surprise, surprise, be consistent with standards expressed elsewhere.

Quote

- We don't know if she lost her place at court.

You will have to show me a princess' handmaiden with a belly. Or explain why the hell Elia was left on her own.

Quote

-If sh was pregnant i doubt that no one is going to marry her... while pregnant,  everyone would make that decision after she had given birth. If she was not, pergaps she was ready to marry yet??

The same might have been said about Lollys, yet she did get married off. And it doesn't even seem that any marriage arrangments were made for Ashara.

Quote

If that was on her volition, i wouldn't, Barri B don't hate, as far as we know, any of the Stark brothers, people just assume  he should do, but the only one Barri B blames over all that is himself, 

What was her own volition, getting pregnant outside marriage? And it's totally just her own problem, the guy who got her preggers has nothing to do with it? Curious.

Quote

no Stark got her in any trouble, Ashara did, that's why i think Barri B don't think ill of any Stark,

Yeah? And where does Barristan give any particular thought to Brandon?

 

Quote

at the end of the day, their action was no different of what he ¿thinks? happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Yeah? And Barristan knows that Lyanna had a child? Since when?

Quote

That's a very silly fallacy,  you claimed that Dorne would turn on her, yet there is no prove about that but your belief that Dorne would turn on her... because the rest of Westeros  would turn on her, i'm not arguing that it would be a scandal but there is a difference between scandal and the utterly destroyed life you seem to be keen on painting, no one remembers a disgraced Ashara, 

See the Sansa quote above - that having a bastard is a dishonour to the mother. Bastards themselves are considered dishonorable. Cat thinks her own sister went to Jon Arryn's bed soiled. Merrett's Frey's promiscuous daughter get married off to a man below her rank because no-one else would marry her. You have plenty examples how the society viewed "fallen women", and in our own world's history, such a time is not so long past.

Quote

Theirr faces is a very clear sign that even that is fading

Contradicted by the bitterness of the memory for Ned and how disturbing the dream still is to him.

Quote

but why would've Ned felt any sorry for both the dishonor, if that was done on their own volition, and a suicide we don't even know he was the  cause??

Are you arguing that if it's voluntary, the dishonour is OK? Because it is apparently not, the examples I stated above were not unvoluntary, either.

BTW, Robb and Jeyne were also voluntary, yet Robb felt it was a dishonour to Jeyne - and no, it wasn't just his own idealistic approach, Tyrion stated that he put the girl's honour above his own, so there was apparently something to amend concerning Jeyne's honour.

Quote

A fling is just that,

You were provided with a clear quote that Ned was not a man for flings, by his own assessment. Therefore, if he did have a thing for Ashara, he wouldn't have got over it as easily as you would like.

 

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Incorrect. That's the timing for the return of cold weather. The timing of the abduction is not known, we only that Rhaegar left for a journey that would "ultimately lead him back to the riverlands". Doesn't say how much time passed in between. George's original time estimate between HH and the abduction was about a year, and even though that seems more condensed now, there is still more time than you claim.

 

Oh you're right, i still think that the timing couldn't be more than 4 or 5 months but i do agree that we lack of the timing to precisely date all that was happening in the Riverlands. It could be 9 months, it could be 4.

 

14 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

But of course we do, through Sansa's TWOW POV:

""Is that what you would have from me? A bastard?" She pulled her fingers from his grasp. "Would you dishonor me that way?"

So, your claim is that Sansa's words to manipulate Harry not only are the only true but they are the only truth anyway?? 

We know that not virgin nolewomen are frowned upon in Westeros and that pregnant women are seen as soiled goods, what we don't know is if Elia cared about that to dismiss Ashara,  norwe do know that insane Aerys cared about that, nor we do know if Ashara didn't just leave early to have the kid in Starfall and to keep quiet , nor there is someone who says that Ashara was disgraced by that.

 

21 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Go through his chapters again then.

Quote

I did, that's why i'm saying it.

 

22 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

We're dealing with Barristan's standards in his own PoV, which happen, surprise, surprise, be consistent with standards expressed elsewhere.

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Yes and Barri B  standards tells us that women having sex without being married is dishonorable, nothing else, nothing more.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

You will have to show me a princess' handmaiden with a belly. Or explain why the hell Elia was left on her own.

Quote

Probably because se wanted a quiet place to have her bay, she asked permission to leave. 

 

35 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The same might have been said about Lollys, yet she did get married off. And it doesn't even seem that any marriage arrangments were made for Ashara.

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And Lollys got raped by half KL, we know why and  how she  got married but we don't we even know if there was someone waiting for marry, if there was any arrangements made or if they believed an arrangement was the appropiate.

 

41 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

What was her own volition, getting pregnant outside marriage? And it's totally just her own problem, the guy who got her preggers has nothing to do with it? Curious.

Quote

No,  having sex prior marriage, unless they had already perfectioned the pull out game, the risk was plain clear and i'm not saying that the guy who got her pregnant can wash his hands, i'm arguing that if one's dead and the other got married without knowing, there is a small room to hate.

 

45 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah? And where does Barristan give any particular thought to Brandon?

 

When he thinks about Ashara, he thinks that a Stark dishonored her but he doesn't brood on it, he just accepts that Ashara desired whatever Stark, the only one he blames there is himself. 

 

49 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Yeah? And Barristan knows that Lyanna had a child? Since when?

Quote

Barristan knows that Rhaegar didn't abduct her to sing her songs.

 

50 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

See the Sansa quote above - that having a bastard is a dishonour to the mother. Bastards themselves are considered dishonorable. Cat thinks her own sister went to Jon Arryn's bed soiled. Merrett's Frey's promiscuous daughter get married off to a man below her rank because no-one else would marry her. You have plenty examples how the society viewed "fallen women", and in our own world's history, such a time is not so long past.

Quote

Again, but we were talking about Dorne.

 

54 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Contradicted by the bitterness of the memory for Ned and how disturbing the dream still is to him.

Quote

I  suppose that any memory in which his sister is involved would be that, i'm not arguing that Ned don't feel sad about that, i'm arguing that Ned is losing memory of many of those events and what he remembers vividly is the KG which is both bitter and disturbing anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Are you arguing that if it's voluntary, the dishonour is OK? Because it is apparently not, the examples I stated above were not unvoluntary, either.

BTW, Robb and Jeyne were also voluntary, yet Robb felt it was a dishonour to Jeyne - and no, it wasn't just his own idealistic approach, Tyrion stated that he put the girl's honour above his own, so there was apparently something to amend concerning Jeyne's honour

I will not get tired of saying that Robb and Jeyne are not Ned and Ashara/Cat,  they all have different upbringings and backgrounds to treat them as carbon copies, they are not. If Ashara was worried about her maidenhead, assuming here that she was not either raped or they weren't on another level of drunkness , she would not have lost it, or what do you think would hapen with Brandon?? Both knew that Brandon couldn't get off the bethrothal, it wasn't his call. 

Btw, i'd argue against the idea that sleep with a drugged struck with grief boy is very voluntarily...

 

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

You were provided with a clear quote that Ned was not a man for flings, by his own assessment. Therefore, if he did have a thing for Ashara, he wouldn't have got over it as easily as you would like.

 

Because... 

[Narsil4]

I read the Fire VS Mud line as suggesting that someone like Arya or Lyanna would choose mud, as in Mycah or Howland.

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Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.

Quote

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, but Arya laughed about it, and the next day she rubbed mud all over her arms like some ignorant bog woman just because her friend Mycah told her it would stop the itching.

I'm not sure there is enough information about Ashara to really indicate what side her preferences would have fallen on. 

Ashara turning to Stark, suggests she went to them for help, with whatever her issue was. 
And if she is Jon's mother, it would seem she was also able to get a lot of help from Jon Arryn as well. 

Quote

Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

I get the impression that Ned's obsessively honorable nature is overcompensating for something dishonorable he did in his youth. With the possibility that he didn't actually sire a bastard, I have to wonder what he might have done.  

[Marysa Blackfyre]

On 11/27/2019 at 8:14 AM, Greywater-Watch said:

On further thought, if we assume that Lyanna is mother to Jon and Daenerys (be it birth at the same time or 9 months apart), which is what I conclude from your theory, then we have a major issue with the old prophecy Melisandre quotes: "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

Melisandre is sure that smoke and salt means Dragonstone.

It all fits very well to Daenerys being the Stormborn (i.e. being born on Dragonstone). But Lyanna has never been there, as far as we know. She gave birth to Jon and/or Jon and Dany in Dorne (at the Tower of Joy). And there is no connection to "smoke and salt" for me.

Melisandre is certain of many things, but in my opinion, she's not really certain, also because she's not omniscient and she's wrong too.

So we are giving up Azor Ahai with a sword in his hand, right? No Lightbringer?

Actually I have an option. That is, whoever was born in that tower is Lightbringer because Rhaegar was Azor Ahai, born from smoke and salt in the Summerhall disaster, and Lyanna his Nissa Nissa. Lyanna's death is the sacrifice that Nissa Nissa also made.

[Marysa Blackfyre]

Regarding the temporal problem, in the case of two births with 9 months of separation. as GRRM said, there is a part of the theory that I have not written.

"All of which is a long-winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts."

First of all, he talked about "Dany" and we know he likes to play with the words. If Daenerys was Rhaella's dead child, well yeah Jon is born before that child. Following my theory, we supposed that Daenerys' real name is Visenya, she was only exchanged with Dany.
Some time ago, he played a similar trick, saying that the child in Dany's vision in the Undying was dead. Well if Aegon is (f)Aegon then it's obvious that the child in Dany's vision is dead.

[corbon]

57 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

I read the Fire VS Mud line as suggesting that someone like Arya or Lyanna would choose mud, as in Mycah or Howland.

Read it again. Barristan actually starts with an example of a mud-man, and the characteristics that make him a mud man. Dorne sent Dany Quentyn, who is a mud man - sober, sensible, dutiful, whereas a young girl wants fire - poetry, passion and laughter.

57 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

I'm not sure there is enough information about Ashara to really indicate what side her preferences would have fallen on. 

Otherwise, not really, we only have the men she danced with and hung out with at Harrenhal, which gives us some faint hints.
But Barristan is clear. Young girls ALWAYS choose fire. And get burned.
Ashara is a young girl that his experience includes, perhaps the single most significant young girl of his experience, since he was in love with her. And she was dishonoured at Harrenhal, and looked to Stark. And got burned.

Its impossible that she chose mud, because then Barristan could not think to his self that young girls ALWAYS choose fire. And she got burned.
Clearly Ashara chose fire.

57 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

Ashara turning to Stark, suggests she went to them for help, with whatever her issue was. 

Yes. Which Stark is not clear. 

57 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

And if she is Jon's mother, it would seem she was also able to get a lot of help from Jon Arryn as well. 

Would it? What indication do you have for that?

57 minutes ago, Narsil4 said:

I get the impression that Ned's obsessively honorable nature is overcompensating for something dishonorable he did in his youth. With the possibility that he didn't actually sire a bastard, I have to wonder what he might have done.  

Robert, who grew up with Ned, is clear. Ned was always like he is now. And Ned's own thoughts give the same indication.

I don;t think Ned is overcompensating for his own failures, he's overcompensating for his elder brother, who was clearly did behave badly in these areas.