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Marysa Blackfyre

Just Another R+L=D (and J) Theory - detailed

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ATTENTION. This theory is not based on LEMON TREES. Yes, you got it right. The lemon tree could have been planted in a garden of a Sealord in Braavos, remember that Viserys was hosted by wealthy men ... or Dany could actually be in Dorne.
However, the hot spots are others.
In my opinion, Daenerys and Jon are twins, but GRRM is the master and he could even knock down R+L=J. I honestly do not know how, because I believe it strongly, but he seems to leave many doors open.

Abandon prejudices, forget preconceptions and read everything before commenting, because I intend to analyze closely what GRRM hides on Daenerys.

Get on board!

 

BACKSTORY
Rhaella gave birth to a dead child, as has always happened, or died while Viserys and Ser Willem Darry were sailing away from Dragonstone.
Well, it's simple, Daenerys (the one we all see) replaced Rhaella's dead daughter. The truth would have only made Robert infuriated against Ned who saved Dany, against who hid her and then Robert personally would have chased Rhaegar's daughter to the ends of the world.
She was born in Dorne, together with Jon, in the Tower of Joy and then entrusted to some Dornish faithful to the Targaryens, or rather faithful to Rhaegar (cough ... Daynes ... cough).
Ned Stark has time to take Daenerys to Dorne, in fact, what does he do after finding Lyanna? He goes to Starfall, to Ashara Dayne to bring her brother's sword back.
My theory is simple: he had one more important thing to do in Dorne, leaving Daenerys to the care of the loyalists Targaryen. The sword was a simple excuse, the official reason if someone had asked him why he was stopping off in Starfall.

So when was Daenerys brought to Essos?

Quote

"I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal cases that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heartache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now."

This is a vision of Dany in the House of the Undying.
She sees the past and it almost seems we're seeing her first encounter with Ser Willem Darry (who was with the allegedly dead baby when they escaped from Dragonstone).
It almost seems that Dany and Ser Willem Darry have just met. He enters the room and "Little princess, there you are". He seems to ask her to trust in a stranger. "Come, come to me." It seems he is welcoming her for the first time. "Now you're home, now you're safe."

Now there are two possibilities:

1. Ser Willem Darry went to pick up Dany from Starfall, in her room with a red door and a lemon tree. This explains why she is already in the room while he has just arrived.
2. Someone took Daenerys to Braavos, perhaps Oberyn who went to deal with Viserys or perhaps a Dayne.

 

WHAT ABOUT VISERYS?
I read this "Why should Viserys fear Dany? Being a male, he has more right than she does." No. People have spent months saying that Jon isn't really the legitimate heir because the Baratheons have conquered Westeros. In fact, no one has any right, who wants the Throne must conquer it with the armies. Viserys grew up with this conviction.
Now imagine that this little girl, half Targaryen and half Stark, appears in his life. Well, Daenerys would have more armies than him, in his mind. Also, between the two, their alleged allies of Dorne would have no problem choosing her if she claimed the Throne. They don't give precedence to men over women.
Do you remember how jealous he was of her when he saw that Dany was loved by the Dothraki? It will be exactly the feeling he felt when he found out who her parents are.
She still has a real family alive, he doesn't.
Seriously, I don't see why he had to tell her who she really is.
However, he can't kill her because otherwise, he would be alone, but first, he thinks of marrying her and then decides to use her as a bargaining chip.

One thing is certain:

Quote

My mother died giving me birth, and my father and my brother Rhaegar even before that. I would never have known so much as their names if Viserys had not been there to tell me.
He was the only one left. The only one. He is all I have.

Think about it. All Daenerys knows is what Viserys has chosen to tell her. All we know is what Viserys told Dany.
The rest are stories heard by the people of Westeros about a hypothetical little girl who survived a terrible storm and even a very long boat trip. Who can assure us that this child survived? After all Rhaella's babies died within a year?

 

LYANNA DEATH

Why don't I think Jon killed Lyanna? Jon like Viserys is not a real dragon to me.
There is no evidence that he is a real dragon, he looks more like a Stark and does not prove to have Targaryen characteristics. His mother's traits have prevailed over his father's. No one would associate Jon with a dragon.
Lyanna was a healthy woman, while Rhaella was seak. It took a dragon to reduce Lyanna dying into a bloodbath.
This could be Daenerys, born after Jon.

 

CONNECTIONS BETWEEN DANY AND JON
There are obvious connections between Jon and Daenerys, it is clear to everyone.  
At the same time I have to tell you, are we sure that the connection between Jon and Daenerys is the loving one and not one of two TWINS that have been separated? Aunt and nephew's travels are not parallel, aunt and nephew don't say the same sentences while twins often recite the same words and have similar thoughts.
Both she and Jon are The Song of Ice and Fire. She looks like Targaryen and he looks like Stark, but both are the two things. They are two halves that complement each other.
It's said that he is a bastard and she is the daughter of the Mad King. What if they are not?
George Martin tells Alfie Allen that Jon and Daenerys are like Luke and Leia Skywalker. What are Luke and Leia? Twins.

 

CONNECTIONS BETWEEN DANY AND RHAEGAR
We're constantly being told about Dany that is very similar to Rhaegar. It seems pointless to me to cit it, since it is written everywhere.
Coincidence because he was her brother or it was a GRRM foreshadowing? She is ALWAYS compared to Rhaegar.
Daenerys dreams a lot about Rhaegar. She sees him in her visions. She wonders what Rhaegar would have done in certain situations. She even wonders if he felt the same things she feel. In a dream, she imagines being in his armor.
She actually thinks more about him than about her alleged parents. I think there is something special going on between Daenerys and Rhaegar, more than brother and sister, father and daughter.

 

CONNECTIONS BETWEEN DANY AND THE STARKS (this part break my heart)

Robb Stark. Daenerys in the House of the Undying had to see things about herself but she sees Robb Stark's death. It could only mean that Robb was part of her family.

Why does Ned dream of broken promises even more while he is at King's Landing serving Robert? Is Daenerys that part of the promise he failed to keep?
The fact that at King's Landing you think even more constantly about the promise makes no sense, Jon is a thousand miles away from Robert and no one can discover his secret, it is Daenerys who is threatened.
He becomes totally obsessed with the promise and I thought it might be because Varys says he's already sent someone to kill Dany. Ned can't do anything, and he doesn't know if she's okay or if she's dead.

Quote

The Dothraki called the land Raesh Andahli, the land of the Andals. In the Free Cities, they talked about Westeros and the Sunset Kingdoms. Her brother had a simpler name. "Our land," he called it. That words were like a prayer for him. If he had said enough, the gods would surely have heard it. "Our blood, taken from us for treason, but ours again, ours forever. Don't steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers.

Does the dragon remember? Wasn't the North and the Starks remembering? This could be GRRM foreshadowing.

Quote

The red door was so far from her, and she could feel the icy breath behind her. If she lost it, she would die of a terrible death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She started running.
...
 She could smell her home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and large stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She opened the door.
" . . . . the dragon . . . "
And she saw her brother Rhaegar.

Where to start?
It seems that Dany identifies Rhaegar as "her home" and once again she doesn't think about her "parents". She opens the door in search of her home and sees Rhaegar.

First of all, dragons don't howl, wolves howl.

Attention. Dany runs towards the red door (which for her means home) and behind her, she hears a cold breath, which made me think about the Long Night. We will talk about Dany-Long Night later. RED DOOR = HOME, COLD BREATH = LONG NIGHT.
She is afraid of not being able to reach "home", howling forever alone in the darkness (Long Night). Do you follow me?
The house she is looking for is the North, the pack she is looking for are the Starks. Her heart fears not to reach them in time, before the Long Night.
If she turns out to be Nissa Nissa and sacrifices herself to save the North and the Starks, my heart will be shattered. But we will come back later on this point.

Ned's words:

Quote

Let me tell you something about the wolves, child. When the snow falls and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for quarrels. In winter, we must protect ourselves, keep warm, share our strengths. So if you have to hate, Arya, hate those who would really hurt us. Septa Mordane is a good woman and Sansa ... Sansa is your sister.
You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows in both your hearts.

Notice how well it fits... They (the Starks) must keep themselves warm during the winter or they will die. Even Daenerys feels the cold behind and runs home, where she will be kept warm because if she stays alone (howling forever alone) in the winter (darkness) she knows she will die (the lone wolf dies). Winter is coming and she feels the need to find her pack.
HOWLING FOREVER ALONE IN THE DARKNESS = THE LONE WOLF DIES
ARMS TO KEEP HER WARM = IN WINTER WE MUST KEEP WARM

Quote

And then, much further on, beyond the saber and the infested towers and the immense stone walls of Harrenhal, somewhere in the world, came the long, lonely howl of a wolf. The goose skin rose on the skin of Arya, for a moment had the dizziness. Then, so weakly, she seemed to hear her father's voice. "When the snow falls and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives," he said.

Arya remembers her father's words while she was in Harrenhal and seems to hear a lone wolf howling in the world... who I'm suggesting is Dany, otherwise, we'd be talking about Westeros, not the whole world.

 

VISIONS IN THE HOUSE OF UNDYING AND OTHER DREAMS (my favourite part)

In a vision of Daenerys, Rhaegar talks about a third head of the dragon. He says he needs a third child. The detail is that while he says it he literally looks at her!

Quote

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say.

Rhaegar talks about the third head and looks towards Dany, a detail that I think has been underestimated over the years. Someone thought Rhaegar was talking to Daenerys, but I think he's talking ABOUT her.

Quote

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name ... mother of dragons, daughter of death.


She's called 'Daughter of Death' after being shown specifically Rhaegar's death. Not her presumed father's. Not her presumed mother's. Not Lyanna because it would be too obvious. But Rhaegar's.
But there is also Lyanna in this picture because Rhaegar pronounces a woman's name, which could be that of Lyanna. It fits. Daughter of death, both Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The word blue is pronounced many times while Dany is in the house of Undying. And blue is a reminder of winter roses and Lyanna.

Quote


"Remember who you are, Daenerys " whispered the stars in a woman's voice. "Dragons know. You? "

The stars say that dragons (it could indicate Dany's ancestors) know who Daenerys is while she doesn't know who she is.

Immediately after the "remember who you are" things...

Quote

And she saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a black stallion like his armor. The fire shone red through the narrow slit of his helmet. "The Last Dragon," whispered weakly the voice of Ser Jorah. Dany lifted his shiny black visor. But the face inside was her's.
After that, for a long time, there was only the pain, the fire inside her and the whispers of the stars.
She woke up with the taste of ashes.

I think it's all connected. Daenerys dreams of being Rhaegar while she continues to hear the whispers of the stars "remember who you are".
She feels pain and fire, which made me think about the pain that Rhaegar and Lyanna felt dying ("there was only pain"). GRRM tells us that Rhaegar was cremated ("the fire inside her", "the taste of ashes").

 

DAENERYS MEMORY = QUAITHE

Much of this theory is based on Daenerys' memory, which seems to have discrepancies.
As Sansa has a selective memory, even Dany may have removed part of her childhood because of the beating of Viserys. Fear does strange things to the mind.

As early as 2017, Martin interviewed in Russia, holding a Q&A with Fantastic Assembly. Fans took to Reddit to provide translations:

Quote

"For example, when asked how old was Daenerys when she left the house with the red door, he said, "keep reading" and added that the red door is not just a memory of Daenerys' happy childhood. There will be a lot more about these doors in TWOW."

So in the next book, we will have a revelation about the famous red door. I think Quaithe will help Dany remember that that red door is connected to a childhood she doesn't remember.
In fact, GRRM tells us that we will have a revelation about the red door and Quaithe insists with Dany telling her to remember. She must remember something about the red door.

So, when Quaithe repeats to Daenerys:

Quote

"Remember who you are. To move forward, you have to look back."

She asks Daenerys to unlock her memory and remember who she really is. Otherwise, she'll never go on, she won't find a reason to go to Westeros, she won't fight alongside the Starks in the Long Night and if Dany is Nissa Nissa, Quaithe thinks it's important that she goes.

Quote

"If I look back, I'm lost."

Quaithe again:

Quote

"Daenerys. Remember the Undying. Remember who you are."

The Undying. Robb's death's vision, Rhaegar says he needs another dragon and looks at her, Ser Willem Darry who seems to have just met her, the things of the red door and lemon tree if you like.

Quote

"You are the blood of the dragon."

Last Dragon, as Rhaegar was called.

Quote

"Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words."

"Fire and Blood", revenge on the enemies. BUT ... Does Quaithe care if Daenerys takes the Throne?
She comes from Asshai, like Melisandre, and she also follows the God of Light. So, like Rhaegar, they think about Prince who was Promised, Long Night, Song of Ice and Fire, etc..
Dany's motto could also be that of Lyanna. "Winter is Coming" and once again Quaithe pushes Daenerys to take the field against the White Walkers, an important cause.
"What you were made to be". In practice, we have to ask ourselves what GRRM has planned for Dany's final because Quaithe is clearly asking Dany to do the mission of her life.
Dany is Nissa Nissa and Jon is Azor Ahai, the saviors of Westeros, the song of Ice and Fire, as Rhaegar had planned. Terrible and tragic.
Once again the Undying returns and Daenerys die lighting her real last fire, Lightbringer, the sword that will use Jon in the final war.
"The North Remembers", remember who you really are.

 

Edited by Marysa Blackfyre

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Some comments:

- Nice catch with Dany's dream about howling alone in the darkness, and dying, if she does not reconnect with her past (via the House with the Red Door).  The lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

- Rhaella's dead child need not have died before or during the escape from Dragonstone.  She could have survived into the next year or beyond. Also, I see no reason for postulating that the dead child was a son.  There are fewer obstacles to R+L=D if she was a daughter.

- If R+L=D is true, then IMHO the most likely place for The House With The Red Door is at the Tower of Joy; the "House" being what remains after the tower was knocked down.  I base this on the idea that Sir Willem she remembers would be Lord Willam Dustin, who we know never left the Tower of Joy.   He never lived to ride away.

- The phantasms Dany sees in the House of the Undying are phantasms.  They are not real.  They are based on her memories (which are real), but to the extent they try to lure her aside from her path, they are lies.  No other explanation is needed (IMHO) for the phantasm's precise words to Dany.  He is a phantasm, welcoming her back to the home she secretly longs for. 

- The Martells need not be involved at all.  Certainly, I would not trust those snakes, if I were Ned.  Yes, the Water Garderns sound like Baby-Swap Central Station, and I do believe something is up with the Martells.   But it does not connect to Dany.  I think it connects to Dany's half-brother Aegon, though.  I believe Doran & Mellario swapped their son for their nephew, and send their nephew to the Yronwoods in place of their son.

- Your green-haired Tyroshi girl, who Doran explains away, is a bit intriguing.  But surely she cannot be Dany.  She should be roughly the same age as Arianne, give or take a year or two.  Indeed, she would probably be older if Arianne is so proud of outmatching her.  And the younger children are riding the older children.

- My belief is that those we see in Dany's vision are Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon.  And yes, Rhaegar seems to be looking at Dany when he says "there must be one more."  Though, in light of the death of the older daughter, it would now seem there must be two more for the prophesy to be fulfilled.

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17 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Some comments:

- Nice catch with Dany's dream about howling alone in the darkness, and dying, if she does not reconnect with her past (via the House with the Red Door).  The lone wolf dies but the pack survives.

- Rhaella's dead child need not have died before or during the escape from Dragonstone.  She could have survived into the next year or beyond. Also, I see no reason for postulating that the dead child was a son.  There are fewer obstacles to R+L=D if she was a daughter.

- If R+L=D is true, then IMHO the most likely place for The House With The Red Door is at the Tower of Joy; the "House" being what remains after the tower was knocked down.  I base this on the idea that Sir Willem she remembers would be Lord Willam Dustin, who we know never left the Tower of Joy.   He never lived to ride away.

- The phantasms Dany sees in the House of the Undying are phantasms.  They are not real.  They are based on her memories (which are real), but to the extent they try to lure her aside from her path, they are lies.  No other explanation is needed (IMHO) for the phantasm's precise words to Dany.  He is a phantasm, welcoming her back to the home she secretly longs for. 

- The Martells need not be involved at all.  Certainly, I would not trust those snakes, if I were Ned.  Yes, the Water Garderns sound like Baby-Swap Central Station, and I do believe something is up with the Martells.   But it does not connect to Dany.  I think it connects to Dany's half-brother Aegon, though.  I believe Doran & Mellario swapped their son for their nephew, and send their nephew to the Yronwoods in place of their son.

- Your green-haired Tyroshi girl, who Doran explains away, is a bit intriguing.  But surely she cannot be Dany.  She should be roughly the same age as Arianne, give or take a year or two.  Indeed, she would probably be older if Arianne is so proud of outmatching her.  And the younger children are riding the older children.

- My belief is that those we see in Dany's vision are Rhaegar, Elia and Aegon.  And yes, Rhaegar seems to be looking at Dany when he says "there must be one more."  Though, in light of the death of the older daughter, it would now seem there must be two more for the prophesy to be fulfilled.

- You're right, I didn't think about the phantom thing and the red port connected to the Tower of Joy. That's a great idea!

- No, no doubt Ned wouldn't have trusted the Martells. Also, I don't think he would have crossed Dorne with two newborns to Sunspear. I think the Daynes could have trusted them. Maybe.
Also, one thing that makes me think, is that it is difficult to travel with newborns who need to be breastfed. Jon may have been born before. I think it's likely that Ned left Dany newborn, in need of breastfeeding, in Starfall, which is close to the Tower of Joy.
This is because Jon and Dany can be twins, but also just brother and sister because about two years pass from Lyanna's disappearance to her finding.

- I didn't get your point of view. You believe in R+L= D and J? Or just D?

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4 hours ago, Marysa Blackfyre said:

- I didn't get your point of view. You believe in R+L= D and J? Or just D?

I'm more-or-less committed to the theory that Dany's father is Rhaegar.  As to the mother, I'm a bit more uncertain, but I lean toward Lyanna.  The alternative, of course, is Ashara.  Either way, I think she was raised at the site of the Tower of Joy.

Everyone thinks that R+L=J, and I'm pretty open to that; but the unwarranted (IMHO) certainty of others often causes me to play devil's advocate.  But I don't think Dany and Jon are twins.  They might be so-called "Irish twins", however … that is, born 10 or 11 months apart.

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12 minutes ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

That's not the star wars in SOIAF.  It's not a Luke and Leia thing.  The star wars call back will be Bran the apprentice betraying Bloodraven.  Bran = Annikin. 

I won't repeat Alfie Allen's words, in case some are worried that they may involve potential spoilers.  One can google them easily enough.  But both you and the OP seem to be forgetting what he actually said.

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From the timeline (I based my information on https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages)

it seems not possible that Rhaegar+Lyanna = Dany & Jon.

Lyanna was caught/abducted by Rhaegar in 282 AC (1 year after the Tourney at Harrenhal).

Next time we hear about Lyanna is when she dies at the Tower of Joy in 283 AC.

Jon was born in 283 AC, Dany in 284.

Hence: Jon and Dany cannot share the same mother.

Aegon was born in 281 or 282. Hence Rhaegar + Lyanne = Aegon is not possible either.

Except of course:

a) We assume sex between Lyanna and Rhaegar before (e.g. during the turney at Harrenhal)

b) Timelines are a bit imprecise, e.g. Tower of Joy was very end of 283 and Dany was born right then. The calculation of Dany's birthdate balanced a bit between 283 and 284 in above link, but finally decided for 284.

To support b):

According to e.g. the vision in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar was desperate for a second child from Lyanna. He was absent during nearly all the war (Robert's Rebellion) and Aerys had to send men of the Kingsguard to look for him. He may have wanted to attend the birth of his second child with Lyanna, but had to leave some weeks before (to the battle of the Trident). In the vision of the House of the undying, he already has one child with Lyanna (I assume it is her) and has not yet seen the second child, thus he says to Dany (or Lyanna) that there must be a second child. Which in fact he never had the chance to see. Following this argumentation, the first child (Jon) was already born, and Dany is Jon's sister.

 

I think the remark about the Leia/Luke situation just refers to two children not knowing they are siblings and growing up in different families. No use to look for a Darth Vader or Annakin.

 

 

Edited by Greywater-Watch

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7 hours ago, The Coonster said:

Jon is much older than Dany.  I would even say older than what Ned said.  Older than Robb. 

As to Robb there's no reason to believe this is true. The theory of Jon being the older one doesn't have any foundation in the books. Such evidence as there is points to Jon being younger.

Catelyn firmly believes that Ned had cheated on her, which wounds her deeply, yet she never considers that maybe he didn't. How eagerly would she have grasped any evidence that Ned hadn't cheated, had she been able to see any evidence of it? But she had no reason to consider it; Jon grew up in her house and she could observe his growth and see with her own eyes that he was younger than her son.

Ned outright says to Robert that he dishonored his wife and he allows Catelyn to believe that for their entire marriage. How much easier for Ned, and how much better for his marriage, had he been able to just say that Jon was conceived before he was married? But there's a simple reason he couldn't do that: it clearly wasn't the case. He couldn't explain Jon as older than Robb or as anything other than the product of his infidelity to his wife - because it wouldn't have been believable.

The people in the books might have a more medieval culture than us in some ways, but they know how babies grow. I don't recall any hints or speculations from any character that Jon is older than Robb; it simply doesn't come up. So if there is no basis for the characters in the story to think this, there's no basis for the readers to think it either.

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33 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I don't recall any hints or speculations from any character that Jon is older than Robb; it simply doesn't come up. So if there is no basis for the characters in the story to think this, there's no basis for the readers to think it either.

I can't think of anything to suggest Jon looks any younger that Robb either. Bran says they are of the same age. Cat is acting strangely paranoid about Jon's threat to her family line.  And the people of Winterfell have been frightened into silence by Ned: instead they are busily telling each other that bastards grow up quicker then legitimate children, which is plainly silly.

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1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

I can't think of anything to suggest Jon looks any younger that Robb either. Bran says they are of the same age. Cat is acting strangely paranoid about Jon's threat to her family line.  And the people of Winterfell have been frightened into silence by Ned: instead they are busily telling each other that bastards grow up quicker then legitimate children, which is plainly silly.

I think the main point irt Jon and Robb is that they’re very close in age. Could Jon be a couple of months older? Possible. And as @The Ned's Little Girl said, Cat fully believes Ned fathered Jon after they were married. Now, one can only mistake  the age of a baby by a couple of months IMO. There’s no way a 9mo baby can be passed off as, say, a 3mo baby. 

As to bastards growing up faster, I always took it to mean that bastards have to mature faster, sprinkled w/ a pinch of Martin’s fondness of leaving things open to interpretation. 

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On 11/24/2019 at 9:44 PM, Targaryen Restoration said:

That's not the star wars in SOIAF.  It's not a Luke and Leia thing.  The star wars call back will be Bran the apprentice betraying Bloodraven.  Bran = Annikin. 

Annikin betrayed the Jedi order and helped its destruction.  That is the likely direction for Jon Snow.  He betrayed the NW and his decisions will lead to its destruction.  Just as the Sith repaired Annikin, the White Walkers will revive Jon Snow and he will do their bidding. 

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2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I can't think of anything to suggest Jon looks any younger that Robb either. Bran says they are of the same age. Cat is acting strangely paranoid about Jon's threat to her family line.  And the people of Winterfell have been frightened into silence by Ned: instead they are busily telling each other that bastards grow up quicker then legitimate children, which is plainly silly.

Catelyn becomes "paranoid" of Jon when Robb decides that he wants to legitimize him and name him his heir. 

And the people of Winterfell were frightened into silence about the Ashara talk.

And it's only Maester Luwin who says that bastards grow up faster, but that has nothing to do with Jon's age. Bastards are brought up in a world that has little tolerance for them, so they are forced to grow up faster.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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12 hours ago, The Coonster said:

Jon is much older than Dany.  I would even say older than what Ned said.  Older than Robb. 

I think I remember GRRM saying that Jon is just a few months older than Dany

 

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10 minutes ago, 1908 said:

I think I remember GRRM saying that Jon is just a few months older than Dany

 

Indeed. Here it is:

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

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19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Catelyn becomes "paranoid" of Jon when Robb decides that he wants to legitimize him and name him his heir. 

She doesn't express it openly, but she knows what trouble there can be when a favoured highborn bastard decides he's better than the heir. This is what Jon's been saying (in play, but enough to worry Cat):

Quote

"I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried as he had a hundred times before.

 

19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And the people of Winterfell were frightened into silence about the Ashara talk.

Ned is nuts about the whole thing. He even freezes Robert on the same subject. The guy he loves like a brother.

19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

And it's only Maester Luwin who says that bastards grow up faster, but that has nothing to do with Jon's age. Bastards are brought up in a world that has little tolerance for them, so they are forced to grow up faster.

 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to bastards growing up faster, I always took it to mean that bastards have to mature faster, sprinkled w/ a pinch of Martin’s fondness of leaving things open to interpretation. 

I can see that too. It's still stupid, mind - it's a stupid lie to soothe a uncomfortable truth, that bastards (often) have to fend for themselves, even as children.

The thing is, Jon is The Bastard of Winterfell - Luwin or anyone is not going to use that saying (if it is a saying) without thinking of Jon. And Jon has not had to fend for himself - he has received care equal to Robb Stark. So is there an uncomfortable truth here to be covered by a stupid lie? Like, maybe, baby Jon looking a bit older than Robb?

In real life, in the past, people have claimed a full-term baby was born prematurely to make it appear that it was conceived after the marriage of its parents. And other people, who should know better, have gone along with the lie, because, why make trouble? Certainly, the people of Winterfell don't want to contradict their lord.

There's only a problem if Jon starts thinking he's more worthy to rule than Robb. Hearing that he's probably Ned's oldest son would add fuel to the fire.

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53 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

She doesn't express it openly, but she knows what trouble there can be when a favoured highborn bastard decides he's better than the heir. This is what Jon's been saying (in play, but enough to worry Cat):

You left part of that quote out, though.

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." (Jon XII, ASoS 79)

She's not worried about it because Jon is a bastard. He cannot inherit anything. But Robb changes that when he puts it in his head to legitimize Jon. That's when Catelyn voices her concern. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed. Here it is:

All of which is a long winded way of saying, no, Jon was not born "more than 1 year" before Dany... probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts.

He doesn't know what he's talking about.

Edited by Alexis-something-Rose

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23 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

He doesn't know what he's talking about

GRRM doesn't know what he is talking about? 

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