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Will Dany burn Essos on the way to Westeros?


Jon The Dragon

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I still don't know where you're getting the idea from that Daenerys perpetrated a massacre at Danzak's Pit, because it isn't in my copy of ADWD.  It sounds like someone's fan theory.  Dany is getting Drogon away, in order to protect him from the crowd, and the crowd from him.  Drogon fought back when, very stupidly, people attacked him.  Most people died in a stampede.  Even the Yunkish recognise it as an accident.  It does not end the peace. The peace ends when Hizdahr is overthrown.

As to Dany's role as heroine, it's much more of a dead horse trope to have the Queen being revealed as a tyrant.  Evil queens are ten a penny in literature. We already have one evil Queen, in Cersei.  Do we need another, to confirm the lords of Westeros in their belief that women must not rule?  Would it not be more ground-breaking to show a woman doing a  good job?  What after all is more of an ancient stereotype;  having a female protagonist who is beautiful, sexually active, barren, in control of a dangerous animal, magical, who (a) is cruel and vicious or (b)  more or less decent and plays a big part in saving the world?

Finally of course, Daenerys in the books is not at all detached from violence.  She agonises over the morality of violence endlessly.  Detachment is a show-only invention.  

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Maybe she ends up as both a villain and a hero, depends on the perspective. The winners and losers of war will always differ on that opinion. To the slaves she's a hero, to the slavers she's a villain. I don't know how that will translate to Westeros yet. With the potential size of her army, navy and air power, a lot of destruction could happen. The Dothraki will need a culture change to not to go on the rampage. We don't know what will happen if Dany and Euron cross paths yet. Dany has the potential to be good or bad at this moment, I guess we'll see what path she takes when the next book is out. She needs better advisers in my opinion, they are all men of war or have ulterior motives for her. Quaithe seems to be the only one who warns her, but even she seems to want Dany to embrace the dragon.
 

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2 minutes ago, Jonthedragon said:

Maybe she ends up as both a villain and a hero, depends on the perspective. The winners and losers of war will always differ on that opinion. To the slaves she's a hero, to the slavers she's a villain. I don't know how that will translate to Westeros yet. With the potential size of her army, navy and air power, a lot of destruction could happen. The Dothraki will need a culture change to not to go on the rampage. We don't know what will happen if Dany and Euron cross paths yet. Dany has the potential to be good or bad at this moment, I guess we'll see what path she takes when the next book is out. She needs better advisers in my opinion, they are all men of war or have ulterior motives for her. Quaithe seems to be the only one who warns her, but even she seems to want Dany to embrace the dragon.
 

That's true.  In that respect, she's like the Lady in the Black Company series, by Glen Cook.  Her enemies see a brutal tyrant who hangs and tortures her enemies.  Her supporters see a good ruler who abolished serfdom, maintained law and order effectively, and created a society where children from humble backgrounds could grow up to achieve great things.

Where I think her story could go in Westeros, is that she decides to implement Aegon V's reforms, which are bitterly resented by the nobility, and uses here military power to force them through, making herself hated by many of the nobility, even if admired by many of the Smallfolk.

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38 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I still don't know where you're getting the idea from that Daenerys perpetrated a massacre at Danzak's Pit, because it isn't in my copy of ADWD.  It sounds like someone's fan theory.  Dany is getting Drogon away, in order to protect him from the crowd, and the crowd from him.  Most people died in a stampede. 

This isn’t a theory, it’s a series of events and warning signs. She is more concerned with protecting her dragon, taming him so he doesn’t bite her head off, and wrongly thinking she can’t be burned.

There was a massacre, and about 700 or more people were burned. Her problem, her responsibility.

“The final count was two hundred fourteen slain, three times as many burned or wounded.”

She screams when Drogo gets speared. They wanted to kill him, but she sides with her dragon. She could have encouraged them to kill him or try to restrain him like the other two, but she rode him, which is when the majority of people were burned.

She shows no reflection on the massacre, and she has no inner thoughts about trying to save people (the same people she conveniently hates because, tokar), 

“Below, she saw men whirling, wreathed in flame, hands up in the air as if caught in the throes of some mad dance. A woman in a green tokar reached for a weeping child, pulling him down into her arms to shield him from the flames. Dany saw the color vividly, but not the woman’s face. People were stepping on her as they lay tangled on the bricks. Some were on fire...“

NO reflection on anything there...instead we learn that a joyride is more important:

“Up and up and up he’d borne her, high above the pyramids and pits, his wings outstretched to catch the warm air rising from the city’s sun baked bricks. If I fall and die, it will still have been worth it, she had thought.”

Because flying, she doesn’t have to reflect on anything that just happened:

“On Drogon’s back she felt whole. Up in the sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?”

The Shavepate reveals that the peace was real at first because the Yunkai knew their Valyrian history, and were afraid. Now that their leader was killed in the pit, nothing is holding them back, which is when Volantese decide to send ships.

“Why not a peace? Daenerys wanted it, they could see that. Wanted it too much. She should have marched to Astapor.” Skahaz moved closer. “That was before. The pit changed all. Daenerys gone, Yurkhaz dead. In place of one old lion, a pack of jackals.”

He says “the pit changed all.” That’s when the peace was broken. Whether Drogon or Dany’s fault, they are one now.

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

As to Dany's role as heroine, it's much more of a dead horse trope to have the Queen being revealed as evil.  Evil queens are ten a penny in literature. We already have one evil Queen, in Cersei.  Do we need another, to confirm the lords of Westeros in their belief that women must not rule?  Would it not be more ground-breaking to show a woman doing a  good job?  

He has to deconstruct the chosen one trope, it’s mandatory. So the messiah/savior is actually the threat all along. That’s a valid contribution to fantasy. And the POV flip, having people root for villain Cersei or underdog Sansa or any other woman in the story as Daenerys becomes their antagonist, is totally something the author would do. 

 

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20 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

This isn’t a theory, it’s a series of events and warning signs. She is more concerned with protecting her dragon, taming him so he doesn’t bite her head off, and wrongly thinking she can’t be burned.

There was a massacre, and about 700 or more people were burned. Her problem, her responsibility.

“The final count was two hundred fourteen slain, three times as many burned or wounded.”

She screams when Drogo gets speared. They wanted to kill him, but she sides with her dragon. She could have encouraged them to kill him or try to restrain him like the other two, but she rode him, which is when the majority of people were burned.

She shows no reflection on the massacre, and she has no inner thoughts about trying to save people (the same people she conveniently hates because, tokar), 

“Below, she saw men whirling, wreathed in flame, hands up in the air as if caught in the throes of some mad dance. A woman in a green tokar reached for a weeping child, pulling him down into her arms to shield him from the flames. Dany saw the color vividly, but not the woman’s face. People were stepping on her as they lay tangled on the bricks. Some were on fire...“

NO reflection on anything there...instead we learn that a joyride is more important:

“Up and up and up he’d borne her, high above the pyramids and pits, his wings outstretched to catch the warm air rising from the city’s sun baked bricks. If I fall and die, it will still have been worth it, she had thought.”

Because flying, she doesn’t have to reflect on anything that just happened:

“On Drogon’s back she felt whole. Up in the sky the woes of this world could not touch her. How could she abandon that?”

The Shavepate reveals that the peace was real at first because the Yunkai knew their Valyrian history, and were afraid. Now that their leader was killed in the pit, nothing is holding them back, which is when Volantese decide to send ships.

“Why not a peace? Daenerys wanted it, they could see that. Wanted it too much. She should have marched to Astapor.” Skahaz moved closer. “That was before. The pit changed all. Daenerys gone, Yurkhaz dead. In place of one old lion, a pack of jackals.”

He says “the pit changed all.” That’s when the peace was broken. Whether Drogon or Dany’s fault, they are one now.

He has to deconstruct the chosen one trope, it’s mandatory. So the messiah/savior is actually the threat all along. That’s a valid contribution to fantasy. And the POV flip, having people root for villain Cersei or underdog Sansa or any other woman in the story as Daenerys becomes their antagonist, is totally something the author would do. 

 

 Here's the sequence of events:-

1. The fighting takes place in the Pit.  Among other things, Dany prevents the murder of Tyrion and Penny (one of those charming Ghiscari customs that she's trying to prevent).

2. Drogon is attracted by the smell of blood and the shouts.  He lands and kills a wild boar, which killed Barsena. He proceeds to eat the boar, and Barsena.

3.  Harghaz attacks Drogon, stabbing him in the neck.  Drogon kills Harghaz.  Hizdahr, orders his guards to kill Drogon.  The guards get killed.  By this point the crowds are panicking and stampeding for the exit.  People are being trampled.  NB, Drogon was not the instigator of the attacks.  Very stupidly, a variety of people attacked Drogon, causing him to retaliate, and escalating the situation.

4.  Daenerys leaps into the Pit.  Drogon spits flame at her and at the crowds.  She ducks the flame, and manages to whip him into submission.  Then, she mounts him and takes off.  Yes, she is very concerned for Drogon.  Keeping Drogon in the Pit is about the most stupid thing she could do in this situation. Someone would try to kill Drogon (and maybe her) and he would unleash more flame.  As to killing him, that's about as sensible as suggesting that Arya kill Nymeria, or Jon kill Ghost.    The bond between dragon and rider is as close to the bond between direwolf and warg, although she has little control over Drogon at this point.  She just clings to him as he takes off.   In any case, Drogon would have killed her first if she had tried to kill him. 

By far the most sensible thing she can do in the circumstances is what she did in fact do.

5. She flies off, and people hurl spears and shoot crossbows at her outside the Pit.  Drogon burns some of those attackers. Then she flies away.

6. 214 people are killed, many by being trampled in flight.  More were burned and injured.  But, none of these killings were carried out on Daenerys' orders or by her wishes, save possibly in self-defence, outside the Pit.

7,  The Yunkish execute Groleo in retaliation for what happened, but they accept, that the peace still holds.  They release three other hostages.  They don't object when Barristan tells them that what happened was an accident.

8.  Volantis was already on the way, long before Danzak's Pit.  We know that because Quentyn Martell's first chapter already mentions the armada in Volantis (and it's plain from Tyrion's POV that they are mustering for war).  They set sail long before any word would have reached them from Meereen, which is 1,500 miles from Volantis.  Skahaz had no knowledge of their arrival, until very recently.  If he had, he would have known that war was coming, regardless of any agreement with the Yunkish, and that many of the Yunkish were playing them false.  We know from Tyrion's POV that there is both a war party, and a peace party among the Yunkish.  The death of Yurkhaz (and subsequently, the death of the Yellow Whale) strengthened the war party.

9.  However, the Yunkish do not resume war until several weeks have passed, once Barristan and Skahaz have mounted their coup against Hizdarhr.

Daenerys is not to blame for what went down in Danzak's Pit.  She did the absolute best she could in such a situation.  It's a huge misreading to think of this as something she intended. 

As to the "chosen one" trope, there's nothing "mandatory".  It's an authorial choice.  If Martin chooses to go down the tired old path of portraying women who seek power as unnatural, then that's his choice, but he won't be writing a classic if that is the case.  He could just as easily subvert the chosen one trope, by making Jon Snow a threat.

 

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14 minutes ago, Jonthedragon said:

I have wondered before if the Volanteen fleet that is apparently on the way to Mereen, is the same one that was taking the Golden Company to Westeros, could Victarion have got that information wrong and the fleet isn't headed to Mereen?

The Customs Officer explains to Tyrion that he the Old Blood can't rest easy so long as Meereen is free.  The Armada was about to set sail when Tyrion was there.

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9 minutes ago, Jonthedragon said:

Tyrion went missing with Jorah just before the Golden Company left for Westeros on the Volanteen fleet, I assumed if the Volanteen army left Volantis then the slaves and the red priests would revolt and take control of the city.

You also have Skahaz saying that the Volantenes are on their way.  Presumably, there are still soldiers in Volantis, although yes, I expect that revolt will break out.  The first Jon Connington chapter confirms that Yunkai has despatched envoys to Volantis and hired sellsword companies to attack Meereen.  This is months before the events in Danzak's Pit.

That inclines me to believe that the peace was in reality a sham. The Yunkish never once let on that they had summoned the Volantene Armada.  

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I think Victarion was the last person to see the fleet at Volantis, presuming it was headed to Mereen. I may be wrong. He thought the storm he experienced after would scatter them, then we hear about a storm scattering the Golden Company around the Stepstones, Cape Wrath and Tarth. War must of been hard back in the day without technology, whole forces could literally miss each other. 

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22 hours ago, SeanF said:

A Khaleesi is, in essence, a privileged sex slave.  She had no part in the command of the Khalasar. She did what she could at the village, but it was a drop in the bucket.

I think it is overwhelmingly likely that innocent people died at Astapor, but many more innocent lives were saved, that day.  She deserves to be criticised for not remaining at Astapor to govern it, so that it fell into the hands of a tyrant.

 

On 11/27/2019 at 7:14 AM, Wall Flower said:

 Realistically, as a pregnant 13 year old, Dany used the very limited influence she had as Drogo's wife to prevent some rapes but she could not have stopped Drogo or his men from their actions in Lhazarene. She was uncomfortable and tried to tell herself that the pillaging was necessary but I think what happened there played into her attitudes to slavery and the slavers at Astapor and Meereen.

I agree that Dany does have a ruthless and vengeful streak but it's worth remembering that plenty of innocent slaves were already dying in Astapor and Meereen - it was built into the slavers' business model.

Gentlemen, this:

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

NO reflection on anything there...

I never expected Dany to be able to stop Drogo from pillaging Lhazarene. What I DID expect was way more reflection - those innocent people never harmed anyone but they died because of HER, as means to an end. She doesn't like the means, but it never stops her wanting the IT, never makes her consider if her cause is even worth all those deaths. Saving some women from rape - correction, further rape - conveniently allows her conscience to shut up and imagine that she somehow made up for all the death and suffering, and she tells herself it was all necessary. Yet she never ensures that the women are treated well after she forbids the rape, as we can see on Mirri's state. And when Dany feels betrayed by Mirri, she never stops to consider that Mirri is absolutely right.

Now, don't get me wrong, Dany is one of my favourite characters, but for all her good intentions, she has a potential for destruction (and hypocrisy), and is bloody entitled. I am absolutely unable to imagine Jon doing something like that, or glossing over it like she did, and that scares me.

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

 

Gentlemen, this:

I never expected Dany to be able to stop Drogo from pillaging Lhazarene. What I DID expect was way more reflection - those innocent people never harmed anyone but they died because of HER, as means to an end. She doesn't like the means, but it never stops her wanting the IT, never makes her consider if her cause is even worth all those deaths. Saving some women from rape - correction, further rape - conveniently allows her conscience to shut up and imagine that she somehow made up for all the death and suffering, and she tells herself it was all necessary. Yet she never ensures that the women are treated well after she forbids the rape, as we can see on Mirri's state. And when Dany feels betrayed by Mirri, she never stops to consider that Mirri is absolutely right.

Now, don't get me wrong, Dany is one of my favourite characters, but for all her good intentions, she has a potential for destruction (and hypocrisy), and is bloody entitled. I am absolutely unable to imagine Jon doing something like that, or glossing over it like she did, and that scares me.

I certainly can't imagine Jon ever perpetrating rape, or tolerating it in the men under his direct command.  But, what if Jon had made good his escape from the Wall, and joined Robb Stark's army in its campaign?  Robb's army did abuse civilians, in various ways, in the Riverlands and Westerlands..  Women were hanged for sleeping with Lannister soldiers, and Western peasants were paid back in kind for what the Lannisters had done in the Riverlands. Pretty Pia and others were raped at Harrenhall.  I'm sure Jon would have hated those things, but would he have abandoned Robb's campaign, as a result, or would he have accepted that was the price to be paid for Robb to carve out his kingdom?  I don't know.

 One point about Jon's story is that quite often, very hard moral choices are taken out of his hands.  He can't bring himself to kill Ygritte. when she is captured, but it still turns out well for him.  He's spared the need to murder Mance Rayder by the timely arrival of Stannis.  He's asked whether he could bring himself to kill child hostages, but the need never arises.  Would Jon get his hands dirty, if he had to?  

Dany is frequently placed in situations where any decision she takes (or does not take) hurts someone.

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I don't know if Jon would change the Wildling way of carrying their women off, it's sort of along the lines of rape. On the flipside I don't think he would be the type of Lord / leader to exercise the right of the first night. He seems to hold himself to a code of conduct, but can hold his tongue when other people are doing questionable things. There is a line in the sand with him though in my opinion, if an act is too bad he will respond to it.

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8 hours ago, SeanF said:

Do we need another, to confirm the lords of Westeros in their belief that women must not rule?  Would it not be more ground-breaking to show a woman doing a  good job?

Dorne has had some pretty good women rulers.. the policy of not fighting against, yet neither submitting to, the Conquest was commendable.

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