Will Dany burn Essos on the way to Westeros?

[Ygrain]

 

 

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Meereen is in a very bad way. But it is not her fault.

I don't really even consider Astapor to be her fault. She and the Unsullied overthrew the previous leadership system, installed a new leadership system and left said system to govern. She had nothing to do with Cleos, the Butcher King. 

Yes it is her fault. Both. She was the one who toppled the established power structures, with a childish conviction that if you remove the big baddie, things will somehow tend to themselves. They never do. Good intentions are simply not enough.

4 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

So I disagree: Meereen has to succeed. Westeros is not insulated from slavery. Ironborn salt wives and thralls are slaves...especially when they are taken from lands outside of the Iron Islands. Theon when he was Reek was technically a slaves. Jorah Mormont and Cersei Lannister (both high lords) have both had successful dealings with slave traders.

I think that you are basing this on a wrong premise - that Dany is actually a revolutionary saviour. Now, take a look at the history of our world and show me a single case where such a thing actually worked. To my best memory, there is none, whereas quite a handful of immense brutality, leaving the country in ruin and corpses. 

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

8 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

So, no, Meereen does not have to be the crown jewel to show the rest of the world they can do without slave trade. Westeros has done so for thousands of years. Braavos has the richest bank and most expensive assassins for hire and does incredibly well as a trade city nation. And overall so does Pentos. The "world" doesn't need Dany or Meereen to show them they can do economically well without slave trade, because a big part already does so. She just needs to choke the supply and cities like Qohor, Myr, Lys, and Tyrosh and Qarth already have specialties they can trade for without relying on slaves.

The point imo is that George pushes Dany to the point that she won't care anymore about "trying to prevent the worst", pushing her to believe those efforts won't make a difference to the end result, and pushing her to believe that misery, horrors and disease will prevail anyway. This would liberate her to fully embrace "fire and blood", believing it is better to go for the short pain by massacre rather than the long torturous way of peace and compromises that will end in disaster in her mind anyway. In her last chapter of aDwD, she is already starting to believe this. George didn't do that to her, for her to return to Meereen and find a success story after all.

I agree that it won’t be a success, and I don’t think she tried very hard. She couldn’t last more than what? A few months? Meereen doesn’t have to be a model city, but that is what Dany set out to create at the end of ASOS. She said she wouldn’t let it go the way of Astapor. This was supposed to be a test run for her. She can’t rule if she’s just going to crucify everyone in a tokar again, metaphorically speaking. She also can’t rule if she’s just going to invert the hierarchy in Meereen, which inspired Cleon. To sum up I think Dany is just a shitty person trying not to be one.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

 

 

Yes it is her fault. Both. She was the one who toppled the established power structures, with a childish conviction that if you remove the big baddie, things will somehow tend to themselves. They never do. Good intentions are simply not enough.

I think that you are basing this on a wrong premise - that Dany is actually a revolutionary saviour. Now, take a look at the history of our world and show me a single case where such a thing actually worked. To my best memory, there is none, whereas quite a handful of immense brutality, leaving the country in ruin and corpses. 

 

 Failure is often due to the fact that the forces of reaction are too powerful to be overcome.  Assuming that the Slavers get defeated outside Meereen, and Volantis revolts, this may be a rare case of the reactionaries actually losing.  The slavers could have chosen peaceful co-existence with a free Meereen, but they preferred to declare war.

Peaceful reform is always preferable to violent change, but there is no reform party in Volantis or Slavers Bay.  On the contrary, they are terrified of their slaves, so they double down on repression.  Violent change comes when the ruling caste refuses to "change that you may preserve."

Sometimes violence does end slavery for good, as with Haiti in 1800, the US in 1865, or North Africa in the 1820's. And the revolt in Haiti and an unsuccessful revolt in Jamaica, were a big factor in prompting the British to end the practice.  

 

 

[Aldarion]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

 Failure is often due to the fact that the forces of reaction are too powerful to be overcome.  Assuming that the Slavers get defeated outside Meereen, and Volantis revolts, this may be a rare case of the reactionaries actually losing.  The slavers could have chosen peaceful co-existence with a free Meereen, but they preferred to declare war.

Peaceful reform is always preferable to violent change, but there is no reform party in Volantis or Slavers Bay.  On the contrary, they are terrified of their slaves, so they double down on repression.  Violent change comes when the ruling caste refuses to "change that you may preserve."

Sometimes violence does end slavery for good, as with Haiti in 1800, the US in 1865, or North Africa in the 1820's. And the revolt in Haiti and an unsuccessful revolt in Jamaica, were a big factor in prompting the British to end the practice.  

 

 

Problem with Slaver's Bay is that it is... Slaver's Bay. There is a) long tradition of slavery there and b) self-reinforcing effect other cities have on any one city within the Bay. Also, slaves only revolted when Daenerys came; they are basically looking at her to solve all problems. If they had revolted first, and then Daenerys helped, I suspect situation may have been different. But maybe not.

[Jon The Dragon]

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

One can certainly draw parallels, although I'd say Slavers Bay is much worse than the current Middle East.  Slave societies are endemically violent, as the authorities have constantly to terrify the slaves, to keep them submissive, and relentless warfare   and piracy is required to maintain the supply of fresh slaves. I'd say the closest parallel is North Africa in the 16th century.

If we look at what's happened in Libya its pretty similar, a so called undesirable leader is removed and now slavery is back on the menu in that part of North Africa.

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, Jon The Dragon said:

If we look at what's happened in Libya its pretty similar, a so called undesirable leader is removed and now slavery is back on the menu in that part of North Africa.

There are no easy solutions in Slavers Bay. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing."

Dany's choice is to do nothing (and that is certainly the more prudent course of action, from her own point of view) or else do something, without being sure that it will work.  The case for doing nothing is always the most tempting option.

[Jon The Dragon]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Dany's choice is to do nothing (and that is certainly the more prudent course of action, from her own point of view) or else do something, without being sure that it will work.  The case for doing nothing is always the most tempting option.

I believe she is about to change course on that thought, and commit to a lot of action. Unlucky for the people of Essos.

[BlackLightning]

5 hours ago, Aldarion said:

Problem with Slaver's Bay is that it is... Slaver's Bay. There is a) long tradition of slavery there and b) self-reinforcing effect other cities have on any one city within the Bay. Also, slaves only revolted when Daenerys came; they are basically looking at her to solve all problems. If they had revolted first, and then Daenerys helped, I suspect situation may have been different. But maybe not.

So, according to you, what happens to Volantis will be very different from what happens to Meereen. Because the slaves of Volantis are explicit getting their ducks in a row and preparing themselves for her arrival...

43 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

I believe she is about to change course on that thought, and commit to a lot of action. Unlucky for the people of Essos.

Unlucky for the highborn, slave-owning people of Essos.

I think the religious, the lowborn and the slaves will really take to Dany. Also people east of the Bones (e.g. Yi Ti, Asshai, etc.) might also grow fond of her

12 hours ago, SeanF said:

One can certainly draw parallels, although I'd say Slavers Bay is much worse than the current Middle East.  Slave societies are endemically violent, as the authorities have constantly to terrify the slaves, to keep them submissive, and relentless warfare   and piracy is required to maintain the supply of fresh slaves. I'd say the closest parallel is North Africa in the 16th century.

You don't have to look at 16th century northern Africa to find a close parallel.

Just look at the United States in the late 18th century and the vast majority of the 19th. It's an ugly, bloody business.

14 hours ago, Crona said:

I think I’m missing something but why would Dany burn down parts of Essos? If she attacks Pentos, I could see it but what if Braavos steps in? Pentos is next to Braavos, and Braavos has had a heavy hand in their policies. Dany also only controls one dragon and the dragon is not fully mature either. The other 2 may not even listen to her. 

We're not just talking about a literal, physical burning. It's a figurative burning of Essos that it's going to happen. Especially since the foundation of 97% of Essos is a foundation of slavery and oppression. Breaking the wheel is going to have to require violence. That's what the whole "fire and blood" thing in Daenerys X in A Dance with Dragons was about. She was foolish to think she could do it effectively without violence.

7 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

To sum up I think Dany is just a shitty person trying not to be one.

Aren't we all, in a way, shitty people who try not to be shitty people?

If we aren't all shitty people and Dany is a shitty person, then shouldn't Dany's quest to be a good (or at least not-so-shitty) person be admired and respected? 

7 hours ago, SeanF said:

 Failure is often due to the fact that the forces of reaction are too powerful to be overcome.  Assuming that the Slavers get defeated outside Meereen, and Volantis revolts, this may be a rare case of the reactionaries actually losing.

The slavers could have chosen peaceful co-existence with a free Meereen, but they preferred to declare war.

/end thread

This is why Essos will burn. The pro-slavery establishment in Essos (which is the vast majority of Essos) wanted war. Daenerys wanted peace and freedom. They decided to try and pick a fight with Daenerys that they can't win.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

Aren't we all, in a way, shitty people who try not to be shitty people?

If we aren't all shitty people and Dany is a shitty person, then shouldn't Dany's quest to be a good (or at least not-so-shitty) person be admired and respected? 

 

Excellent points.

[Jon The Dragon]

12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Unlucky for the highborn, slave-owning people of Essos.

I think the religious, the lowborn and the slaves will really take to Dany. Also people east of the Bones (e.g. Yi Ti, Asshai, etc.) might also grow fond of her

What is going to happen to all of her followers if the cities become uninhabitable / destroyed, will they be going to Westeros as well? That's a hell of a lot of people to move. Coming to Westeros when there is a high possibility of food shortage over winter isn't going to be good for any of the people.

 

12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I think I’m missing something but why would Dany burn down parts of Essos? If she attacks Pentos, I could see it but what if Braavos steps in? Pentos is next to Braavos, and Braavos has had a heavy hand in their policies. Dany also only controls one dragon and the dragon is not fully mature either. The other 2 may not even listen to her. 

I don't think Pentos and Braavos get along as well as they could. Pentos has and wants slaves, Braavos doesn't. I think Braavos will stay out of Dany's Essos war, they will probably come in with Stannis' 20 thousand men that he has borrowed money for. I expect Arya to either come back with them or with the envoy from KL that came to treat with the Iron Bank.

[BlackLightning]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Excellent points.

Thanks.

I'm just trying to find out what is it that some people want Daenerys to do?

• If she hadn't left Meereen when she did, the fate that befell Robb Stark in Walder Frey's feast hall would've looked tame. Remember what happend to Strong Belwas?
• If she stayed in Qarth, she would've either been exiled with all her wealth being seized by the city or she would've been locked away being the fodder of the vampiric warlocks.
• If she stayed in the Dothraki Sea, she would've been shuttled off to Vaes Dothrak where she will spend the rest of her life amongst the Dosh Khaleen. And that's the absolute best case scenario.
• If she went back to Pentos, she would've gotten caught up with the whole Aegon debacle, making her a pawn of Varys. I personally believe that Varys is up to no good and I know I'm not alone in that.
• If she stayed in Astapor, then people would've complained about how she's wasting time and that she should hurry on up to Westeros. And in Astapor, she'd be a less powerful person and, thus, less able to positively impact the lives of others.
• If she skipped trying to be responsible and consolidate her wins in Meereen and went right on to Volantis, she would've been called irresponsible and brash...at best. Besides, Volantis was not ready for her then and she would've likely completely failed in Volantis. Much bigger city, much more powerful upper class. It would've been a disaster.
• And god knows what would've happened if she gone to Asshai. We don't know Quaithe enough to trust her/him. And neither does Daenerys....so

Like what was she supposed to do? Die on the streets of Vaes Dothrak? Elope with Ser Jorah and sell off her three dragon eggs? Or should she have just died in infancy?

I mean, the girl has to live. She has as much right to the Iron Throne and Seven Kingdoms as the Starks have right to Winterfell.

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Thanks.

I'm just trying to find out what is it that some people want Daenerys to do?

•  

Cut her own throat, I think.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

14 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Meereen is in a very bad way. But it is not her fault.

Of course it is. She thought she could take on the slavers and win. I appreciate that she wanted to end the practice, but nothing happens overnight. Change takes time. How long did she think she was going to remain in Meereen and how long did she think it would before the Yunkai'i and the other slaver cities turned their attention to her and ousted her? It was naive of her to think that she could grown her olive trees in peace and watch them grow in peace. 

In Meereen, she gave up too much and lost power in the process. 

She locked up her dragons, she allowed the Green Grace to bully her into marrying a Ghiscari to buy peace, she allowed Hizdhar to reopen the fighting pits and washed her hands off it because it was his decision and not hers. 

Then someone tried to poison her and Hizdhar tried to have one of her dragons put down. 

Dany's problem is that she bit off more than she can chew and forgone who she is. I think there are some hard lessons waiting for her in Meereen when she returns and even harder lessons when she arrives in Westeros.

[sweetsunray]

 

15 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That's the thing though. If the experiment that is Meereen should fail (I don't believe it will because GRRM is very anti-slavery/pro-humanity so for GRRM to allow Meereen), Meereen failing will not be Daenerys' fault.

Viserion and Rhaegal were chained up, out of harm's way. Quentyn overreached and trespassed and tried to set them free so that he could conquer one and take it back to Dorne (i.e. theft). Quentyn cocked it up and now the two dragons are flitting about agitated and lost, burning and eating whatever catches their eye. The Sons of the Harpy were poisoning the city from the inside out; they tried to kill Daenerys and forced her out of the city.Qarth, Volantis, Yunkai and a couple of other city-states are also besieging Meereen. They aren't trying to retake the city; they are trying to destroy it. Why would they destroy it? Because destroying Meereen as it stands is a statement to the rest of the world. They are literally catapulting diseased corpses into the city. The water has also likely been tampered with. Hizdahr is a sleeper agent, whether he knows it or not. She lost the loyalty of her sellsword companies...

Meereen is in a very bad way. But it is not her fault.

I don't really even consider Astapor to be her fault. She and the Unsullied overthrew the previous leadership system, installed a new leadership system and left said system to govern. She had nothing to do with Cleos, the Butcher King. 

So I disagree: Meereen has to succeed. Westeros is not insulated from slavery. Ironborn salt wives and thralls are slaves...especially when they are taken from lands outside of the Iron Islands. Theon when he was Reek was technically a slaves. Jorah Mormont and Cersei Lannister (both high lords) have both had successful dealings with slave traders.

Braavos may not have slaves. But the fact that the Sealord has to actively intervene in the slave trade in Braavosi waters says all we need to know. 

She did everything (short of iron-fisted, brutal dictatorial methods) in her power to make Meereen work. Can you blame her for wanting to implement a degree of cold, hard authoritarian tactics?

Sure, Daenerys tends to destabilize things but she is a revolutionary. It's the way of the game. She and Jon have quite a bit in common.

If anything, your bulletpoint line-up of Dany's mistakes proves that she learns from her mistakes and tries to fix them. She took a passive role with Drogo and the Lhazareen and she didn't like what it led to. She took a somewhat more active role with Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur and it blew up in her face. She took a much more aggressive role in Astapor and it went sideways AFTER she left. She decided to stay in Meereen and take an firm but softer approach but it backfired disastrously. She almost ended up just like Robb Stark.

What is she supposed to do? Give up?

She is a female, disenfranchised orphan. No matter where she goes, she will have to fight for survival.

While certainly Dany's not the sole player in Meereen, she did rule the city, and the issues she meets with are realistic problems you can expect. Some of her decisions provoked the Sons of the Harpy into acting: such as the boy who came on behalf of the home of his mother. Ironically her reasoning behind her ruling there, also applies to her own "home".  When our armies invade a country or city, our governments should be prepared for insurgences and ultimately having to deal with enemies and hostilities. Otherwise they are irresponsible. Is this an easy task. Of course, it isn't! More, it's one of the most difficult things to accomplish.

As for the poisoning, I actually believe it was the Shavepate who poisoned the locusts, and that in fact Dany had achieved the peace. Shakaz just never wanted peace, but power and control over other nobles imo. The poisoner didn't even want to kill Dany imo. It was a very odd choice of food to poison, as it was the least likely food that Dany would touch. So, that means the poisoner wanted to provoke Dany into breaking the peace, because she would suspect Hizdahr tried to poison her. It was a set-up by someone Dany believes to be an ally. If they truly wanted to poison Dany, they would have poisoned fruit, not insects she crinkels her nose against.

It is true that her dragons escaped because of Quentyn's fuck-up. However, they were already freeing themselves from their chains and burrowing holes into the pyramid from the inside out. And Dany knew this. She noticed these things, when she showed her dragons to Quentyn (which is an odd act by itself). There were clear signs and indications that the dragons would break free sooner than later. And yet, she did nothing about it. They are her dragons, her responsibility, and locking them up in a pyramid was clearly not enough to keep her citizens safe. If our governments allow access to dangerous weapons and does not ensure the security system to keep them locked up is actually secure, then they are partly responsible if some nutjob uses those failings to acquire themselves nuclear arms.

So, while all the actors bear their responsibility of their actions, Dany is not "innocent" either, exactly because she wanted the responsibility to rule a city she knew to be partially hostile to her and within hostile territory. If she rules a city, the lives and safety of her citizens are part of her responsibility. Now, I don't have an issue with Dany in that regard, for one main reason: Dany seems to comprehend she is partially responsible much better than most of her fans do.

Unlike you do, Dany recognizes that she made mistakes by abandoning Astapor, both when she left it in the hands of intelligent men, while not leaving them with means to defend themselves or even their citizens (she took their armies with her after all), as well as when she first learns of the butcher king and then the horror tales after. She regrets certain decisions, and it is her motivation to stay and rule in Meereen, and that I find commendable about her. But essentially it comes down to this:when you take all the trained armed forces that can defend a city and guard people, you can't expect them to survive inner and outside threats. So, yes, the Butcher King could occur, because she left the leaders she installed without means of self-defense. Their solution (making former slavers into new unsullied) was cruel, but partially understandable... espcially when Yunkai became a threat and she refused to come to their aid, when she didn't like the leader who grabbed power for himself. Anyhow, Dany recognizes she created a situation for the Butcher King to take power and that Astapor was helpless against enemies such as Yunkai.

You are correct that thralls are comparable to slaves. But it's not as if the rest of Westeros approves of this. The Ironborn are despised by Westeros for it. Jorah Mormont was to lose his head for what he did. And Cersei and Tywin are not an example of human rights. But you know these are individual exceptions. Same for Ramsay keeping Reek as his possession. Aside from the Ironborn, slavery is not an economical system in Westeros.

What do you mean about Braavos? It aren't Braavosi ships that are arrested for carrying slaves from Hardhome. It's a Tyroshi ship that was forced to seek refuge into Braavos harbor after it was crippled by a storm. The cargo was freed, the captain arrested.

15 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If anything, your bulletpoint line-up of Dany's mistakes proves that she learns from her mistakes and tries to fix them.

Yes, that is partly my point - Dany recognizes her mistakes and tries to learn from them and fix them, but each new tactic to deal with a conquered city also presents a new minefield of mistakes to make, and thus each attempt can end in failure. That Meereen will end in failure should be evident to what is happening in the last few chapters of aDwD. It even looks like the Blue Grace is already dead from pale mare. How will that city conquer the disease without nurses and healers? As for "her people": a) if she rules Meereen then prior slave-owners are her citizens too (again Dany at least recognizes this better than her fans do) b) the pale mare doesn't care whether you were a freed man or an ex-slave owner and hits indiscriminantly, so "her people" will die too, as they did in Astapor.

That Meereen will end in being abandoned as a ruin is the consequence of Dany ultimately choosing her dragons over her citizens: Drogon over the many who died of his burning, and her other two dragons over her citizens in case they tunnel their way to escape.

Quote

What is she supposed to do? Give up?

She is a female, disenfranchised orphan. No matter where she goes, she will have to fight for survival. 

Conquering cities is not the same as "fighting for survival". And your question makes clear that you assume "Dany MUST do something". Dany mustn't do anything. She chose to make it her goal to get the Iron Throne for herself. It's not something she must do. It's something she desires and wants to do, she feels entitled to. That has never changed. Along the way, it is commendable that tries to choose an army that wouldn't rape and pillage and it is commendable she attempts to do something about slavery. However, the latter was never and still isn't her main goal. It's a goal she picked up to assuage her conscious of choosing a path of violence to conquer a continent that may not even need her, because she wants to retake the home of her parents and call it her own, just like that slaver boy asked of her for his mother and she refused to give into, beause she considered the house forfeited. And that's why she is able to choose to stay in a city and rule it as a test drive and even marry a man she abhorrs, but cannot give up the life of her dragons for the safety of her citizens. In the end, she does not see them as her citizens, for even she expects to leave them one day and use her dragons to conquer Westeros. And that is why inherently Meereen will be a failure. Meereen was just her test-drive, her toy, never her goal.

If Dany never actually desired the Iron Throne and came out of the Red Waste with a self-imposed mission to rid Planetos of slavery alone and could commit herself to carve an empire in Slaver's Bay, could commit herself to the region for the rest of her life, then I would think the world of her, and most likely a lot of her endeavours wouldn't turn to dross. The lives of people, slaves or free, isn't an "experiment".

Also without her desire for dragons and the Iron Throne, she'd be the mother of Rhaego riding happily alongside Drogo, for Dorgo wouldn't have faced the other khals for the Lhazareen village then, wouldn't have been cut, and wouldn't end up dying of sepsis. That's when things started to fall apart, and the dragon bit its own tail/tale.

[Rose of Red Lake]

49 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Aren't we all, in a way, shitty people who try not to be shitty people?

If we aren't all shitty people and Dany is a shitty person, then shouldn't Dany's quest to be a good (or at least not-so-shitty) person be admired and respected? 

Dany’s natural inclination is to burn everyone who makes her mad. I guess all of us have some degree of that kind of anger, but if we acted on it we'd all be mass murderers like Dany.

I liked Dany the best in Dance and found her chapters interesting for the first time since AGOT because she listens to some advice and has to make tough decisions instead of going dracarys solving all her problems

Dany gets points for trying to rule Meereen, not for doing exactly what her impulses tell her to do. You can tell doing the smart, soft power thing is REALLY hard for Dany and that her natural state is to be a tyrant. 

[Jon The Dragon]

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, that is partly my point - Dany recognizes her mistakes and tries to learn from them and fix them, but each new tactic to deal with a conquered city also presents a new minefield of mistakes to make, and thus each attempt can end in failure.

I believe she will think she has tried many other options, but the only one that seems to work for her desired end goal is Fire and Blood. She doesn't seem to be loved by the masses, she does seem useful to them to change the status quo of things though. They fear her at first, but get braver and braver as she tries to find diplomatic ways of dealing with things and locks up her dragons. As in the middle east, strongman leaders command the fear/respect, once they are gone it's a total mess trying to rebuild a new system. For years of their lives the people could take no advantage at all, now new leaders are seen as a softer than before so the boundaries get pushed just to see where the line in the sand is. 

 

40 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Along the way, it is commendable that tries to choose an army that wouldn't rape and pillage and it is commendable she attempts to do something about slavery.

The downside to an army like that, that follow unquestionably is the wishes and motives of it's leader. If it's a peaceful leader then great, but for a leader who wants war, revenge and destruction it's pretty dangerous. This is an army who kill puppies and babies to toughen them up. At the moment they seem a good peace keeping / protective force, I wonder how they would be in a future sacking of a city, if there are demands for no survivors. 

[Jon The Dragon]

Thinking about it, her armies will consist of Unsullied (killers without questions), Dothraki (lovers of rape and conquest), The Ironborn (Notorious for kidnap, raping, raiding and basically slavery), sell sword companies of questionable repute, Freedmen who will enjoy destroying the old status quo, religious fanatics who love fire. Then her dragons, which don't seem to be tools of peace. Not exactly the most noble of armed forces that will win hearts and minds on her journeys.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Thinking about it, her armies will consist of Unsullied (killers without questions), Dothraki (lovers of rape and conquest), The Ironborn (Notorious for kidnap, raping, raiding and basically slavery), sell sword companies of questionable repute, Freedmen who will enjoy destroying the old status quo, religious fanatics who love fire. Then her dragons, which don't seem to be tools of peace. Not exactly the most noble of armed forces that will win hearts and minds on her journeys.

The flower of Westerosi chivalry are not exactly better.

[SeanF]

In general, it's unreasonable to blame Daenerys because the Slavers resorted to violence to restore slavery in ADWD. Nobody compelled them to enslave other people, or to go to war with free Meereen.  If they are destroyed as a result, I have zero sympathy for them.    You reap what you sow.

[Jon The Dragon]

24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The flower of Westerosi chivalry are not exactly better.

You are right in some points, but in other ways they are definitely better. Yes they can wage war and do savage things, but that isn't the sole purpose of their culture. Other than the Freedmen, Dany's forces all have questionable things about them and are solely based on or around war. The Golden Company isn't going about raping people, nor are other houses (with the exception of the Ironborn). I'm not saying it doesn't happen in Westeros because it does, individuals are doing whatever. That isn't the chosen way of Westerosi culture as a whole it seems, excluding the Wildlings with how they get their women, The Lannisters in KL during Roberts rebellion, Mountains men and Ramsay & co.

 

2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In general, it's unreasonable to blame Daenerys because the Slavers resorted to violence to restore slavery in ADWD. Nobody compelled them to enslave other people, or to go to war with free Meereen.  If they are destroyed as a result, I have zero sympathy for them.    You reap what you sow.

Of course they are going to retaliate, their whole existence and livelihood is under threat, I agree with you there. They are definitely about to reap what they sowed. At the moment Dany's forces are doing good and are perceived as such, as its against the slavers. Once that force is on the move to different places without any slavers, then her forces could be viewed in a negative light. Her army will be seen as foreign rapers out to take everything Westerosi people hold dear. With her will come the army to rape, dragons to burn and a religion intent on conquest, they seem to only know one way to achieve that goal. If her only tool is a hammer then every problem must be a nail. She seems to lack people who can talk and negotiate for her, everyone is a military mind instead of a political one.