FictionIsntReal Posted December 24, 2019 Author Share Posted December 24, 2019 16 hours ago, frenin said: Sure, he'd need to keep his mouth shut for a number of reasons, that nothing good would come out from open it for him, Mellos says that he silenced him for both reasons. Mellos doesn't say anything about protecting Harwin from himself, since Harwin was the target. The motivation Mellos gives is to prevent Harwin from revealing anything. Quote And what do you think would be Harwin's fate?? Since, per Glydan, Rhaenrya was commiting high treason and thus heading to the executioner?? I remember their fates, what i find hard to believe is that anyone would take the risk to open their mouths. If someone turned up claiming Harwin had admitted to having a sexual relationship with Rhaenyra when she was supposed to be with Laenor, I think Viserys' immediate response would be denial. Officially punishing Harwin would mean granting validity to the rumors. Quote Harwin would not only be ruining Rhaenrya's life but her kids too and Viserys succesion plans, do you really think that would end well for him?? Ruining Viserys' succession plans would be a problem for Viserys, less so for Harwin. By murdering Harwin before he can say something that would interfere with those plans, Viserys helps to preserve them. Quote 1. We do know however that not only they were quite few but they lasted enough to become a causus belli. So were there quite a few people saying this, or just Green propagandists? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Quote 2. I don't doubt the Greens or the Velaryons believed them bastards, they were bastards after all, I'm glad you're not like Lord Varys arguing against the theory that they were in fact bastards. Quote i doubt that the rumours of people who have the world to gain if they are believed bastards are enough to believe that the rumours were as widespread as for example the incest or as damning as the Shireen tale, that absolutely no one but those intimately involved with the narrative calls them bastards is telling, no one but the Targ Greens and the Velaryons ever called them bastards. Which means that either the rumour wasn't widespread, certainly unlikely, or that not many people believed in it, or and this is my favourite, people believed that by them being dragonriders they couldn't be bastards. Lmao. We also have Mushroom claiming that Rhaenyra gave her maidenhead to Harwin (and that he himself found them in bed), continued sleeping with him while Laenor was with Qarl Correy, and that Corlys was the one who murdered Harwin for cuckolding his son. Mushroom may have a reputation for fabulism, but he's not a Green propagandist and instead serves as the one writer who was with the Blacks on Dragonstone. His account often serves as a contrast to Eustace, but both of them agree that Rhaenyra rarely shared a bed with Laenor and that Harwin was murdered because of his overly close relationship with her. Who specifically were you expecting to call them bastards who didn't? Or would claiming that make them "intimately involved with the narrative"? Quote 3. The Velaryons thought they needed to overcome their uncles rumours in war time, Hardly the same. That they felt they needed to overcome those rumors is evidence of how widespread they were. Quote But he was, "But he was" what? Not responding to a hypothetical, as this was his private notes rather than some sort of dialogue. Quote Mellos was privately writing that if Viserya had at any time come to believe the rumours he'd kill Harwin not only to clean the dishonor but out of fear. Mellos doesn't say "not only", as there is instead a singular motivation: silencing Harwin. The phrase "the man who dishonored his daughter" serves to designate a specific person. Quote At any rate indicates that Mellos took seriously the rumours, but that Viserys might have done it at somepoint and act about it. So we agree that Mellos took the rumors seriously, and suspected Viserys could have been motivated to murder by his own belief in them. Quote You said that nobody expected them to hatch dragons, unless we're only counting the greens as everybody, only the greens expected them to not hatch dragons. I didn't say anything about hatching, but you might have been confused by my use of the colloquial term "egghead": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/egghead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Mellos doesn't say anything about protecting Harwin from himself, since Harwin was the target. The motivation Mellos gives is to prevent Harwin from revealing anything. Quote [...] If Viserys had come to accept that the rumors about the parentage of Rhaenyra’s children were true, he might well have wished to remove the man who had dishonored his daughter, lest he somehow reveal the bastardy of her sons. Were that so, Lyonel Strong’s death was an unfortunate accident, for his lordship’s decision to see his son back to Harrenhal had been unforeseen. I'm talking about Harwin here, anyway. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: If someone turned up claiming Harwin had admitted to having a sexual relationship with Rhaenyra when she was supposed to be with Laenor, I think Viserys' immediate response would be denial. Officially punishing Harwin would mean granting validity to the rumors. Quote If Harwin himself admitted that?? 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Ruining Viserys' succession plans would be a problem for Viserys, less so for Harwin. By murdering Harwin before he can say something that would interfere with those plans, Viserys helps to preserve them. Quote But we're talking in a allegedly scenario in where for some reason, the possibility of spilling the beans crosses Harwin's, and only Harwin's, head. Don't know how it's not going to be a problem for Harwin, if Viserys is screwed, he sure as hell would pay Harwin back in kind. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: So were there quite a few people saying this, or just Green propagandists? I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. Quote I'm talking about Daeron's 2 bastardy here. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I'm glad you're not like Lord Varys arguing against the theory that they were in fact bastards. Quote I mean, it's clear as day they were bastards, that has no bearing in what people might've thought then tho, until Stannis started suspecting about Cersei's kids, they were legit in the eyes of everybody. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: We also have Mushroom claiming that Rhaenyra gave her maidenhead to Harwin (and that he himself found them in bed), continued sleeping with him while Laenor was with Qarl Correy, and that Corlys was the one who murdered Harwin for cuckolding his son. Mushroom may have a reputation for fabulism, but he's not a Green propagandist and instead serves as the one writer who was with the Blacks on Dragonstone. His account often serves as a contrast to Eustace, but both of them agree that Rhaenyra rarely shared a bed with Laenor and that Harwin was murdered because of his overly close relationship with her. Who specifically were you expecting to call them bastards who didn't? Or would claiming that make them "intimately involved with the narrative"? We have Mushroom making his own tale, some what? 20-30 years after the war?? Even if it were true, i'm talking about what the contemporaries believed, Patchface might say 50 years after the war that Stannis made him watch while he banged Melisandre and ordering him banging Selyse in turn, that doesn't mean that right now the tale of Stannis banging Meli is widespread in the whole continent. And what Mushi saw or listened 30 years ago is not what Mushi was talking ago 30 years ago. Everyone of the Green army, other lords suspecting of their bastardy, some of the smallfolk etc, i expect them to have the same treatment Cersei's kids have right now, not that only two groups who have very clear interest in the tale being true repeat it like parrots. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: That they felt they needed to overcome those rumors is evidence of how widespread they were. Quote It's not actually, the Green court repeated the rumour constantly and even the tiniest rumour needto be silenced when you're gambling the Throne. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: "But he was" what? Not responding to a hypothetical, as this was his private notes rather than some sort of dialogue. Quote There is no difference, Mellos can perfectly be writing a hypothetical in his prvate notes. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Mellos doesn't say "not only", as there is instead a singular motivation: silencing Harwin. The phrase "the man who dishonored his daughter" serves to designate a specific person. Quote Oh true. My bad. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: So we agree that Mellos took the rumors seriously, and suspected Viserys could have been motivated to murder by his own belief in them. Quote No, we agree that Mellos at some point believed that Viserys might have taken the rumours seriosly, Mellos don't need to take seriously the rumours for him to believe Viserys might have. There is no dilemma there. 2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I didn't say anything about hatching, but you might have been confused by my use of the colloquial term "egghead": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/egghead True, english is not my first language. Merry Christmas tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltharion21 Posted December 25, 2019 Share Posted December 25, 2019 On 12/23/2019 at 7:18 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It wasn't all of Harrenhal that burned, there was just a fire that broke out where Harwin and Lyonel were sleeping, which some just chalk up as a mishap. And Viserys removed Velaryon tongues to stop them from spreading rumors, so there is a sort of consistency in actions. He was what? Nobody ever accused Harwin of any calculated actions. But you've heard the expression "two can keep a secret if one of them is dead". Harwin was separated from Rhaenyra and her children, and there was no way to be sure he wouldn't let it slip at some point when he was in his cups and that whoever he told wouldn't expect a reward from the Greens for testifying as such. Furthermore, Terence Toyne was a knight of the kingsguard sworn to celibacy, and Harwin as heir was very much not. Lastly, Toyne served Aegon IV, so not "2.0". It would be surprising if he was sure of that claim, since Mellos is rarely our single source for big unusual claims and I personally think there are others with much more plausible motives. The point of the Mellos example is that it wasn't just Vaemond and the Green's pushing the theory of Rhaenyra's bastards out of self-interest, as we have the example of someone who was not a propagandist, didn't seem to have any axe to grind, is usually relatively circumspect, and writing privately and thus presumably honestly and he takes the theory quite seriously to the extent of thinking Viserys himself might take such an extreme action. Who is "everyone"? We've got multiple people saying it, so I don't know who you were expecting to hear from that didn't say anything. We've even got the Velaryon/Strongs themselves saying that because of the accusations they should prove their Targaryen credentials by riding dragons. Their logic is questionable since nobody denied their mother was Rhaenyra Targaryen, but nobody expected these kids to be eggheads. I mentioned Baelon as an example, he was named heir over Rhaenys but died before he could take the throne, which is why the Great Council of 101 was called, in which Viserys was chosen as heir over Rhaenys again and her son Laenor. And of course Larys wasn't making this argument so he could assassinate Aegon III later, as he instead poisoned Aegon II with III having been named as heir and betrothed to II's only living child. Aegon II and Tyland seem to have had their logic vindicated by what happened subsequently. Aegon III being heir actually did pose a threat to Aegon II's life. Nobody ever claimed Orwyle was trying to make the Green council look good, rather the opposite as he was imprisoned by Cregan Stark and trying to stay alive. The point is that he is the only one who claims that he was dissenter alongside Beesbury, and also the only one who claimed Beesbury died a natural death rather than being murdered by Cole. If he had admitted that Cole murdered Beesbury for dissenting, it would naturally raise the question of why Orwyle wasn't murdered as well for his similar behavior. Avoiding that is why he has a clear motive to tell a different story even if it's not true. If Orwyle was dissenter and said same things as Beesbury during the Small council after Viserys's death. By his own testimony he wouldn't be killed but placed in Black Cells along with Beesbury, where he would remain until threat of revealing crowning of Aegon to Rhaenyra would remain. That obviously didn't happen. Then he would either be converted ( if they had any use for him, since he wasn't a noble)or remain imprisoned since many other lords were imprisoned and given another chance to bend the knee. Beesbury was sent (or killed) supposedly only after he got up , decided to leave the council and notify the Black side about their plan. For which to have any chance of working needed time to solidify. Since Orwyle was also sent in negotiations to represent Green council to Rhaenyra , we can be sure they were rather confident who he supported. Most logical explanation is that he was holding a reconciliatory position at best , while Beesbury was hard line Rhaenyra loyalist, and any qualms he had weren't strongly given. Murder of Beesbury by Ser Cole makes that theory more inconsistent with how his actions were presented during the Dance , with following chain of command above all and loyally serving the Greens. I dislike theories of people linking him with Littlegfinger he didn't attempt power grab, placing his own men like Tywin or Baelish in positions of power or grooming Haelena or taking any of their children as wards. Otto Hightower ordering Beesburys brutal death is also inconsistent with the way he dealt with issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted December 27, 2019 Author Share Posted December 27, 2019 On 12/24/2019 at 6:04 PM, frenin said: If Harwin himself admitted that?? Yes, I think Viserys might deny even in the face of Harwin himself claiming that. But precisely because of how hostile Viserys' reaction might be, I don't think Harwin would deliberately stick his neck out while Viserys was alive. Someone else claiming that Harwin got drunk and made such claims would not be directly violating Viserys' command themselves but instead making an accusation about something Harwin said. Quote But we're talking in a allegedly scenario in where for some reason, the possibility of spilling the beans crosses Harwin's, and only Harwin's, head. Don't know how it's not going to be a problem for Harwin, if Viserys is screwed, he sure as hell would pay Harwin back in kind. If Harwin is drunk, the things crossing his head might not be well thought out. Or he could think he's speaking in confidence to someone he actually shouldn't trust so much. Furthermore, once Viserys dies he won't be able to exercise his wrath, and such accusations could help the Greens keep Rhaenyra off the throne before she can punish Harwin, or whoever is repeating the tale. Quote We have Mushroom making his own tale, some what? 20-30 years after the war? Mushroom, Eustace and Orwyle/Munkun all wrote their accounts after the war. It's unclear when exactly Mushroom's Testimony was published. Notes from Mellos or Runciter are earlier, but we don't have as many of those in Gyldayn. Quote Patchface might say 50 years after the war that Stannis made him watch while he banged Melisandre and ordering him banging Selyse in turn, that doesn't mean that right now the tale of Stannis banging Meli is widespread in the whole continent. Patchface doesn't seem capable of communicating normally. Quote And what Mushi saw or listened 30 years ago is not what Mushi was talking ago 30 years ago. That's a fair point, we can't really expect him to be openly saying such things at the time or he wouldn't have continued to have such access. But then that brings us back to the "Which dogs aren't barking when you expect them to?" question. Quote Everyone of the Green army, other lords suspecting of their bastardy, The Green leadership gets most of the focus, and they refer to them as bastards repeatedly. We don't get many quotes from other Greens, and those are rarely about the Velaryon/Strong boys which makes sense as they usually have other things to talk about. Quote some of the smallfolk etc, How often does Gyldayn quote smallfolk? Quote i expect them to have the same treatment Cersei's kids have right now, not that only two groups who have very clear interest in the tale being true repeat it like parrots. Our material about Cersei comes from POV chapters, whereas the events of the Dance are recounted in histories. Quote There is no difference, Mellos can perfectly be writing a hypothetical in his prvate notes. Why is he writing this hypothetical in his private notes? It's not to respond to someone else who asked what Viserys would do in a hypothetical, as that person wouldn't be reading his private notes. The simplest explanation if that Mellos thought Viserys might have actually done it and for that reason. Quote No, we agree that Mellos at some point believed that Viserys might have taken the rumours seriosly, Mellos don't need to take seriously the rumours for him to believe Viserys might have. I suppose that is technically true, but I don't think that possibility is worth giving any space. Quote Merry Christmas tho. And a belated Merry Christmas to you On 12/25/2019 at 7:32 AM, Eltharion21 said: If Orwyle was dissenter and said same things as Beesbury during the Small council after Viserys's death. By his own testimony he wouldn't be killed but placed in Black Cells along with Beesbury, where he would remain until threat of revealing crowning of Aegon to Rhaenyra would remain. That obviously didn't happen. Then he would either be converted ( if they had any use for him, since he wasn't a noble)or remain imprisoned since many other lords were imprisoned and given another chance to bend the knee. Beesbury was sent (or killed) supposedly only after he got up , decided to leave the council and notify the Black side about their plan. For which to have any chance of working needed time to solidify. Since Orwyle was also sent in negotiations to represent Green council to Rhaenyra , we can be sure they were rather confident who he supported. Most logical explanation is that he was holding a reconciliatory position at best , while Beesbury was hard line Rhaenyra loyalist, and any qualms he had weren't strongly given. So we both think Orwyle misrepresented his actions in that council meeting. I think that's a reason to be skeptical of his account of Beesbury, since he's claiming the same action whose punishment is being disputed. Quote Murder of Beesbury by Ser Cole makes that theory more inconsistent with how his actions were presented during the Dance , with following chain of command above all and loyally serving the Greens. I dislike theories of people linking him with Littlegfinger he didn't attempt power grab, placing his own men like Tywin or Baelish in positions of power or grooming Haelena or taking any of their children as wards. Otto Hightower ordering Beesburys brutal death is also inconsistent with the way he dealt with issues. I don't think Cole was disloyal to the Greens per se, but I also think he was more aggressive and willing to act on his own initiative, which is why Aegon replaced Hightower with Cole as Hand. I agree that he really doesn't seem to fit the Littlefinger mold. Littlefinger went in a very different direction after his one attempt at duelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted December 27, 2019 Share Posted December 27, 2019 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Yes, I think Viserys might deny even in the face of Harwin himself claiming that. But precisely because of how hostile Viserys' reaction might be, I don't think Harwin would deliberately stick his neck out while Viserys was alive. Someone else claiming that Harwin got drunk and made such claims would not be directly violating Viserys' command themselves but instead making an accusation about something Harwin said. Quote But if Harwin didn't say it is as good as nothing, Viserys could use the same denial tactic, and removal of tongues, he later uses. 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: If Harwin is drunk, the things crossing his head might not be well thought out. Or he could think he's speaking in confidence to someone he actually shouldn't trust so much. Furthermore, once Viserys dies he won't be able to exercise his wrath, and such accusations could help the Greens keep Rhaenyra off the throne before she can punish Harwin, or whoever is repeating the tale. Quote I assume then that he has not ben drunk since he started to bang Rhaenrya?? That kind of secrets you just keep it to yourselfand he effectively did it for more than a decade. And why Harwim would want to fuck himself, help the Greens and fuck his kids'' That doesn't make sense. 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Mushroom, Eustace and Orwyle/Munkun all wrote their accounts after the war. It's unclear when exactly Mushroom's Testimony was published. Notes from Mellos or Runciter are earlier, but we don't have as many of those in Gyldayn. Quote And while Mush writes about those events, real or nor, as fact, Mellos writes about them as a possibility. 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Patchface doesn't seem capable of communicating normally. Quote Tomato potato, potato tomato. Should i say Pylos then?? 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: That's a fair point, we can't really expect him to be openly saying such things at the time or he wouldn't have continued to have such access. But then that brings us back to the "Which dogs aren't barking when you expect them to?" question. Quote But rarely applies to gossip right?? 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: How often does Gyldayn quote smallfolk? Quote More often that you give him credit for. 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Our material about Cersei comes from POV chapters, whereas the events of the Dance are recounted in histories. Quote But we're not privy to tales like Rogar and his brothers fucking seven virgins, we're not povs butwe know that the tale was believed during many years, we know that when Cregan took KL many people started to spread nonsense gossip and yet we have nothing but silence in the case of the Strong boys. 7 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Why is he writing this hypothetical in his private notes? It's not to respond to someone else who asked what Viserys would do in a hypothetical, as that person wouldn't be reading his private notes. The simplest explanation if that Mellos thought Viserys might have actually done it and for that reason. Quote Or expressing doubts?? Hypothetical sentences are written in case of uncertainty, maybe Viserys had given contradictory signs and Mellos put what he knewand what he guessed in the mix. 8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: I suppose that is technically true, but I don't think that possibility is worth giving any space. Quote Since Mellos never address his thoughts about the rumour i find odd how not. 8 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: The Green leadership gets most of the focus, and they refer to them as bastards repeatedly. We don't get many quotes from other Greens, and those are rarely about the Velaryon/Strong boys which makes sense as they usually have other things to talk about. Quote But this is not a machine, what the Green leadership thinks about the incest can't automatically be assumed on the rest of the greensm especially because no green supported them for the bastardy, the Hightowers were in, the rest didn't want to know anything about female claims and the Baratheons didn't care didn't mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted December 30, 2019 Share Posted December 30, 2019 Eustace definitely does seem to be uncomfortable with the portrayal of Rhaenyra as a "wanton whore." He doesn't entertain the rumors about threesomes with Laenor and Qarl, and he portrays Daemon as having taken advantage of her, rather than her seeking him out. His claim that Criston Cole was a spurned suitor, and that Rhaenyra was the pragmatic one, might have been GRRM's signal to us that Cole was the real villain here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted December 31, 2019 Share Posted December 31, 2019 Let's take a look at the actual versions again. This is the story about Daemon's exile in 111 AC. First we have Runciter's version: Quote Here is where our sources diverge. Grand Maester Runciter says only that the brothers quarreled again, and Prince Daemon departed King’s Landing to return to the Stepstones and his wars. Of the cause of the quarrel, he does not speak. Then we have the information unnamed 'others' give, which might certainly not be incorrect insofar as what kind of advice Alicent would have given her royal husband in any of the scenarios: Quote Others assert that it was at Queen Alicent’s urging that Viserys sent Daemon away. Then we continue with Eustace's short and concise version: Quote But Septon Eustace and Mushroom tell another tale…or rather, two such tales, each different from the other. Eustace, the less salacious of the two, writes that Prince Daemon seduced his niece the princess and claimed her maidenhood. When the lovers were discovered abed together by Ser Arryk Cargyll of the Kingsguard and brought before the king, Rhaenyra insisted she was in love with her uncle and pleaded with her father for leave to marry him. King Viserys would not hear of it, however, and reminded his daughter that Prince Daemon already had a wife. In his wroth, he confined his daughter to her chambers, told his brother to depart, and commanded both of them never to speak of what had happened. This version is short and concise and has the advantage of making the most sense. For one, and as I have pointed out repeatedly, it gives Arryk Cargyll a reason to side with the Greens to the degree that he would actually agree to murder either Rhaenyra or her children (which is a very depraved thing for a KG to do - keep in mind that he could have just defected once he was on Dragonstone). But, more importantly, it sets the stage for the later marriage between Daemon and Rhaenyra, establishing without a doubt that Rhaenyra Targaryen did indeed love her dashing uncle. If you look at later events in 120 AC it seems rather likely that Rhaenyra was the one pushing Daemon to marry her, rather than the other way around. And Rhaenyra's actions during the Dance (like her turning a blind eye at his continued affair with Mysaria as well as freeing him from any responsibility in his later alleged affair with Nettles) also seems to underline the fact that from her perspective this whole marriage was not one grounded in ambition. Daemon having the hots for the young and beautiful Rhaenyra 111 AC makes some kind of sense - in addition to him wanting her to get the throne - but the only thing interesting him in the stout woman of 120 AC would have been the throne, not the good looks which she was losing rapidly. It also makes sense from a schemer's perspective that Daemon would use Rhaenyra's love for him to convince Viserys I to allow him to marry her - rather than personally petition him to set aside Rhea Royce yet again. The king was well-known to rarely, if at all, refuse Rhaenyra a wish. Also, we do know Cole only became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in 112 AC. In 111 AC he was still just one KG among many, meaning that in the Eustace version it is not unlikely Cole did not learn about the Daemon-Rhaenyra of 111 AC in that same year (although it may have been told to him later, after he had joined the Greens). Quote The tale as told by Mushroom is far more depraved, as is oft the case with his Testimony. According to the dwarf, it was Ser Criston Cole that the princess yearned for, not Prince Daemon, but Ser Criston was a true knight, noble and chaste and mindful of his vows, and though he was in her company day and night, he had never so much as kissed her, nor made any declaration of his love. “When he looks at you, he sees the little girl you were, not the woman you’ve become,” Daemon told his niece, “but I can teach you how to make him see you as a woman.” He began by giving her kissing lessons, if Mushroom can be believed. From there the prince went on to show his niece how best to touch a man to bring him pleasure, an exercise that sometimes involved Mushroom himself and his alleged enormous member. Daemon taught the girl to disrobe enticingly, suckled at her teats to make them larger and more sensitive, and flew with her on dragonback to lonely rocks in Blackwater Bay, where they could disport naked all day unobserved, and the princess could practice the art of pleasuring a man with her mouth. At night he would smuggle her from her rooms dressed as a page boy and take her secretly to brothels on the Street of Silk, where the princess could observe men and women in the act of love and learn more of these “womanly arts” from the harlots of King’s Landing. Just how long these lessons continued Mushroom does not say, but unlike Septon Eustace, he insists that Princess Rhaenyra remained a maiden, for she wished to preserve her innocence as a gift for her beloved. But when at last she approached her white knight, using all she had learned, Ser Criston was horrified and spurned her. The whole tale soon came out, in no small part thanks to Mushroom himself. King Viserys at first refused to believe a word of it, until Prince Daemon confirmed the tale was true. “Give the girl to me to wife,” he purportedly told his brother. “Who else would take her now?” Instead King Viserys sent him into exile, never to return to the Seven Kingdoms on pain of death. (Lord Strong, the King’s Hand, argued that the prince should be put to death immediately as a traitor, but Septon Eustace reminded His Grace that no man is as accursed as the kinslayer.) How nonsensical the Mushroom version is we can see rather easily. For once, it is an obvious ripoff from 'Les Liaisons dangerouses' from Chaderlos de Laclos, marking it as fictional content within a fictional setting. Then there is the overall framing of it which seems to be Mushroom rehashing the rumors that were told and spread about Rhaena Targaryen in her youth - another Targaryen princess who liked to fly and who, being alone on her dragon (or only in the company of other dragonriders or friends flying with her on her dragon) could do as she please where she landed - inviting people to speculate about all the erotic and sexual adventures she may have had in the countryside far away from the royal court. A lot of sexual stuff going on in Blackwater Bay between the two dragonriders technically can make sense - the point where the story does break down are the details of 'page Rhaenyra' being brought to the brothels of the city with Mushroom in tow. This would involve far too many people for it to not be public knowledge very quickly. Mushroom claims it eventually came out, but strangely nobody ever repeats this story later on. Rhaenyra turning to her uncle of all people to win the love of another man also doesn't really sound convincing. Daemon Targaryen had been away for years and while Rhaenyra had always liked him, she would have made other friends and confidants during the years in-between, meaning that she would have turned to those had she designs of the sort Mushroom claimed she had, rather than her uncle (who could just as well have felt the need to inform her father about her plans). Finally, there is the ridiculous end of this story. It came out 'in no small part thanks to Mushroom himself' and the king himself believed the story after 'Prince Daemon confirmed the take was true'. Do we actually believe Rhaenyra the Slut would go without punishment after a story as damning as this - as would Mushroom, whose member was still allowed access to the princess' inner circles as late as the beginning of the Dance - really makes no sense. That King Viserys I doesn't like rumors tarnishing the reputation of his family we draw from his reaction to the Strong rumors in 120 AC. Something like that could easily have led to Mushroom's execution and Rhaenyra losing her status as the Heir Apparent. It also would most definitely have led to the permanent separation of Ser Criston Cole and Rhaenyra Targaryen because the king wouldn't have wanted that his daughter turns herself more and more into a slut trying to seduce as noble and chaste a Kingsguard as Ser Criston Cole the Male Septa. The tale that Daemon, before his eventual exile, pushed Viserys I to allow him to marry the fallen Rhaenyra can be reconciled with Eustace's version - as can Lord Lyonel's suggestion to actually execute Daemon for his crime. Claiming the maidenhead of a royal princess would be a more serious crime than merely teaching her the arts of love. Rhaenyra's honor and reputation hinges mostly on an intact maidenhead, not so much on what she did with other parts of her body (or what she witnessed). In that sense Mushroom is also strangely preserving Rhaenyra's honor to a point in his salacious tale - something Eustace does not who has her lose her maidenhead to Daemon, making her an actual slut. The idea that many an important person would have seriously considered marrying his heir to Rhaenyra the slutty expert of the art of love is also not very likely (since that would all imply that she actually had sex, never mind what Mushroom much later insisted in his Testimony). Who do we get as porential husbands for Rhaenyra after this episode of Mushroom's which allegedly came out? Let's look, there are quite a few of them: Quote Great lords and dashing knights fluttered around her like moths around a flame, vying for her favor. When Rhaenyra visited the Trident in 112, the sons of Lord Bracken and Lord Blackwood fought a duel over her, and a younger son of House Frey made so bold as to ask openly for her hand (Fool Frey, he was called thereafter). In the west, Ser Jason Lannister and his twin, Ser Tyland, vied for her during a feast at Casterly Rock. The sons of Lord Tully of Riverrun, Lord Tyrell of Highgarden, Lord Oakheart of Old Oak, and Lord Tarly of Horn Hill paid court to the princess, as did the Hand’s eldest son, Ser Harwin Strong. Breakbones, as he was called, was heir to Harrenhal, and said to be the strongest man in the Seven Kingdoms. Viserys even talked of wedding Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne, as a way of bringing the Dornish into the realm. Queen Alicent had her own candidate: her eldest son, Prince Aegon, Rhaenyra’s half-brother. But Aegon was a boy, the princess ten years his elder. Moreover, the two half-siblings had never gotten on well. “All the more reason to bind them together in marriage,” the queen argued. Viserys did not agree. “The boy is Alicent’s own blood,” he told Lord Strong. “She wants him on the throne.” I don't see the heirs to Casterly Rock wanting to marry this slutty a princess, nor can I imagine for a moment that Alicent would want to marry her son to a woman this depraved. Rather the queen would have used the Mushroom story as a means to destroy Rhaenyra to make Aegon the Elder the Heir Apparent in her stead - something that would be much harder in the Eustace scenario where the truth did not actually come out properly (only Arryk Cargyll, Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Viserys I knew about it in this scneario). And once Criston Cole switched camps in 113 AC Alicent would have had the ammunition to destroy Rhaenyra. If the slut princess had twice tried seduce as knight of the Kingsguard why did Alicent and Cole never bring that to the light of day? It could have destroyed her, and Cole as one of the greatest knights in the Realm would have stood against any foe in a trial-by-combat... But what really gives away that Mushroom is just talking shit here are the variations of the falling-out between Rhaenyra and Cole a couple of years later. Starting again with Eustace's version: Quote And here again our sources differ. That night, Septon Eustace reports, Ser Criston Cole slipped into the princess’s bedchamber to confess his love for her. He told Rhaenyra that he had a ship waiting on the bay, and begged her to flee with him across the narrow sea. They would be wed in Tyrosh or Old Volantis, where her father’s writ did not run, and no one would care that Ser Criston had betrayed his vows as a member of the Kingsguard. His prowess with sword and morningstar was such that he did not doubt he could find some merchant prince to take him into service. But Rhaenyra refused him. She was the blood of the dragon, she reminded him, and meant for more than to live out her life as the wife of a common sellsword. And if he could set aside his Kingsguard vows, why would marriage vows mean any more to him? Eustace's version has much more internal consistency than Mushroom's could ever hope to have, especially when compared to what had happened before. In Eustace's version we do have no mentioning of Ser Criston Cole in the story about Daemon's banishment of 111 AC - not to mention it also actually explains why the hell Cole should have a falling-out with Rhaenyra. She rejects him and rubs salt into his wounds by actually pointing out that his promises of love and faithfulness would be worth nothing if he was actually willing to break his KG vows for her. This must have hurt very much, especially if Rhaenyra and Criston had both been implicitly or explicitly been aware that they were very much attracted to each other and Cole actually had a good reason to believe Rhaenyra might entertain the idea of becoming his wife had the circumstances been different. Quote Mushroom tells a very different tale. In his version, it was Princess Rhaenyra who went to Ser Criston, not him to her. She found him alone in White Sword Tower, barred the door, and slipped off her cloak to reveal her nakedness underneath. “I saved my maidenhead for you,” she told him. “Take it now, as proof of my love. It will mean little and less to my betrothed, and perhaps when he learns that I am not chaste he will refuse me.” Yet for all her beauty, her entreaties fell on deaf ears, for Ser Criston was a man of honor and true to his vows. Even when Rhaenyra used the arts she had learned from her uncle Daemon, Cole would not be swayed. Scorned and furious, the princess donned her cloak again and swept out into the night…where she chanced to encounter Ser Harwin Strong, returning from a night of revelry in the stews of the city. Breakbones had long desired the princess, and lacked Ser Criston’s scruples. It was he who took Rhaenyra’s innocence, shedding her maiden’s blood upon the sword of his manhood…according to Mushroom, who claims to have found them in bed at break of day. As a story, Rhaenyra's lines here make little sense. The idea that Rhaenyra would believe that Laenor Velaryon - being sexually attracted to men as per Mushroom's version of events (only he indicates Laenor may have been gay - general sources only indicate Laenor had no bastards nor a particular interest in women, which is a slightly different thing) - would care about her sexual conduct if he was not exactly eager or willing to ever share the bed with her as her lord husband is not particularly likely. She would have to be rather foolish to talk like that. [Aside from that, those words of Rhaenyra's as per Mushroom very much establish the fact that Laenor Velaryon definitely could have rejected Rhaenyra Targaryen as his bride - unlike her he was not forced to marry her, may have perhaps liked the idea of eventually becoming prince or king consort of Westeros which would do much to rectify the wrongs done to his house in 92 and 101 AC.] The more damning part is that Rhaenyra is just trying the very same strategy she allegedly used as per Mushroom in 111 AC. That is essentially Mushroom using the same salacious plot device, and makes this version thus as likely as the more salacious version about the exploits of Coryanne Wylde. Rhaenyra also has no real motivation to do what she does in Mushroom's version. She does not want to seduce Cole because she loves him, she does not want to run away with him or marry him - she just wants to fuck him so Laenor Velaryon might, perhaps, reject her as his wife. Obviously that coming out would also ruin Ser Criston Cole's reputation, possibly getting him the same treatment as Lucamore the Lusty got from the Old King. The idea that Rhaenyra may have had sex with Harwin Strong in that night - and that Mushroom having access to Rhaenyra's apartments in the Red Keep as her close confidant may have found them abed together - could make some sense if you consider the strain she was under in those days, being forced by her father to marry a man she did not want to marry. Her blowing off steam/having sex at least once with a man she may have desired if not loved (there is no good evidence that the Strong affair continued after her marriage) makes some sort of sense. As makes Cole's motivation as per Eustace to search out Rhaenyra shortly before her wedding to convince her to run away with him. But Rhaenyra wanting to have sex with Cole just to possibly put a stop to her marriage makes no sense. Nor do Cole's actions at the wedding tourney make sense through the lense of the Mushroom tale. Cole cannot know about Harwin and Rhaenyra unless Rhaenyra did what she wanted to accomplish with her failed Cole affair - to publicly shame Laenor into rejecting her by having a lover openly. But that she never had. So why would Cole be furious at any of the men he attacked during the tourney? He simply has no reason in this scenario - but a very good reason in the Eustace version. Quote However it happened, whether the princess scorned the knight or he her, from that day forward the love that Ser Criston Cole had formerly borne for Rhaenyra Targaryen turned to loathing and disdain, and the man who had hitherto been the princess’s constant companion and champion became the most bitter of her foes. This final statement of Gyldayn also makes it clear that this hatred thing was a one-sided issue on Cole's part. As per Mushroom Rhaenyra had been rejected by the Old Septa knight not only once but twice. Rhaenyra is characterized by George as a woman who did not forget slights, so we would have reason to expect that she would have started to loathe this man vowing to destroy him rather than the other way around. In fact, we would expect to hear that she dismissed him from her service, and Cole only ending up with Alicent because she took him in, rather than him turning his back on her. Mushroom is the only source who ever indicates Rhaenyra Targaryen was sexually interested in Cole. Other sources only indicate 'the love' Rhaenyra felt for the man was that of a young girl towards her 'white knight' (i.e. some sort of idealized and chaste chivalry love thing). We do have the following other quotes about them: Quote During that same fateful year [105 AC], Ser Criston Cole was appointed to the Kingsguard to fill the place created by the death of the legendary Ser Ryam Redwyne. Born the son of a steward in service to Lord Dondarrion of Blackhaven, Ser Criston was a comely young knight of three-and-twenty years. He first came to the attention of the court when he won the melee held at Maidenpool in honor of King Viserys’s accession. In the final moments of the fight, Ser Criston knocked Dark Sister from Prince Daemon’s hand with his morningstar, to the delight of His Grace and the fury of the prince. Afterward, he gave the seven-year-old Princess Rhaenyra the victor’s laurel and begged for her favor to wear in the joust. In the lists, he defeated Prince Daemon once again, and unhorsed both of the celebrated Cargyll twins, Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk of the Kingsguard, before falling to Lord Lymond Mallister. With his pale green eyes, coal black hair, and easy charm, Cole soon became a favorite of all the ladies at court…not the least amongst them Rhaenyra Targaryen herself. So smitten was she by the charms of the man she called “my white knight” that Rhaenyra begged her father to name Ser Criston her own personal shield and protector. His Grace indulged her in this, as in so much else. Thereafter Ser Criston always wore her favor in the lists and became a fixture at her side during feasts and frolics. Nothing about a real romantic/sexual attraction of Rhaenyra's side there. Around 110 AC we have this quote, which, from the point of view of Alicent Hightower paints Ser Criston as a threat to Rhaenyra's honor, reputation, and maidenhead and not the princess as a threat to Cole's honor and vows: Quote Though many lords and knights sought her favor, the princess had eyes only for Ser Criston Cole, the young champion of the Kingsguard and her constant companion. “Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?” Queen Alicent asked one day at court. Rhaenyra only having eyes for Cole - her constant companion at the time - makes sense considering she was but 12-13-years-old at the time, and her dashing, beloved uncle was still at the Stepstones. He only returned at the tourney in 111 AC, after all. This early in the rivalry between the princess and the queen I'd also say that Alicent was only in part driven by jealousy and loathing of Rhaenyra - and in another part by genuine concern, not wishing her stepdaughter would be deflowered and shamed and impregnated by an ambitious and l(o)us(t)y knight of the Kingsguard. By 113 AC her views would have changed more, and the rift between the two women would have deepened, especially after Viserys I rejected her proposal to marry Aegon to Rhaenyra (which she likely also interpreted as her son not being good enough for Aemma's daughter who was purer-blooded Targaryen stock). One can invent a lot of ad hoc reasons as to why Mushroom may have been right or how his versions of events could make more sense. But we don't have to do any of that for the Eustace version of the story of Rhaenyra Targaryen and Criston Cole. That one essentially flows naturally, there is no repetition of plot devices or motifs there, there are no quirks in characterization, no obvious plot holes/weird behavior of characters before and after the events described by Mushroom that do not fit (well) with the story he tries to tell, etc. Thus the case is actually remarkably clear here. Not to mention that this is also pretty much true in general - Mushroom is a very unreliable source, a liar and thrower of dirt most of the dirt. Eustace is somewhat in favor of Aegon II and definitely biased against the Northmen but aside from that there aren't many great misses in his story - whereas the overwhelming part of the writings of Mushroom Gyldayn chooses to share with us are utter nonsense. This reflects very poorly on Mushroom's overall credibility as a source. The apparently prevalent consensus among many readers who don't actually bother to investigate the text in detail that Mushroom is in favor of the Blacks and Eustace in favor of the Greens is also never actually made in the text as given per Gyldayn. Mushroom supposedly liked Rhaenyra (and very much disliked her son and successor, Aegon III, whose court he left for White Harbor of all places) but that didn't stop him from throwing dirt at her or her son or her two husbands. Vice versa, Eustace may be biased towards Aegon II, but this didn't stop him from telling the truth about many of the unpleasant things they did. Eustace may have simply believed that the son rather than the daughter should follow the father, but that doesn't mean the man particularly liked Aegon II or his mother and siblings and close allies. In that sense, both those primary sources are problematic and unreliable in certain points for different reasons than personal biases. 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FictionIsntReal Posted January 3, 2020 Author Share Posted January 3, 2020 On 12/27/2019 at 7:13 AM, frenin said: But if Harwin didn't say it is as good as nothing, Viserys could use the same denial tactic, and removal of tongues, he later uses. Viserys could remove more tongues, but he'd prefer not to give Rhaenyra's detractors more ammunition. Hence sending Harwin away from Rhaenyra. Quote I assume then that he has not ben drunk since he started to bang Rhaenrya?? That kind of secrets you just keep it to yourselfand he effectively did it for more than a decade. Harwin has been in Rhaenyra's court, surrounded by people she can more easily control. Quote And why Harwim would want to fuck himself, help the Greens and fuck his kids'' That doesn't make sense. It doesn't have to be the result of actions he's thought through. I don't think Harwin is presented as any kind of political plotter, just a big guy said to be less scrupulous than Cole. At Harrenhal he'd be expected to marry and have legitimate kids, without maintaining any contact or recognition with his bastards. They're probably not going to be at the forefront of his mind. Quote But rarely applies to gossip right?? But what rarely applies to gossip? Quote More often that you give him credit for. Which smallfolk would you expect to say something that didn't? Quote we have nothing but silence in the case of the Strong boys No, we get specific people quoted talking about them, as well as the nature of the relationship between Rhaenyra and Laenor. There's no need to add "It's said they were bastards" if you already have "X and Y said they were bastards", although the text also has "the greens" more generically talking that way. Quote Or expressing doubts?? Hypothetical sentences are written in case of uncertainty, maybe Viserys had given contradictory signs and Mellos put what he knewand what he guessed in the mix. Mellos is the only person to suggest Viserys' responsibility, why would he raise the possibility in his own private notes to express doubts, particularly as he gives no reason why we should NOT believe that theory? Quote Since Mellos never address his thoughts about the rumour i find odd how not. We don't have all that many quotes from Mellos. Quote But this is not a machine, what the Green leadership thinks about the incest can't automatically be assumed on the rest of the greensm especially because no green supported them for the bastardy, the Hightowers were in, the rest didn't want to know anything about female claims and the Baratheons didn't care didn't mind. We simply don't have reasons for why many people chose various sides. Cole giving an argument for why one claimant should have the throne rather than another is something he gets as a result of being more in the focus of historians for his central importance. On 12/29/2019 at 7:29 PM, The Bard of Banefort said: Eustace definitely does seem to be uncomfortable with the portrayal of Rhaenyra as a "wanton whore." I think Mushroom is more than comfortable with talk of wanton whoring, while others come across as dry in comparison. Eustace is fine with making stuff up to make her seem unfit for the throne though. Quote He doesn't entertain the rumors about threesomes with Laenor and Qarl Mushroom is the source for the threesome claim, but he "contradicts himself, for elsewhere he claims that the princess would leave her husband with his lover on such nights and seek her own solace in the arms of Harwin Strong". Eustace is also quoted as specifying that Qarl killed Laenor due to jealousy over Laenor taking a "handsome" young squire as his favorite, but this doesn't require him to actually discuss any sex acts as Mushroom might, just as he doesn't between Rhaenyra and Harwin even if he implies as much. Quote he portrays Daemon as having taken advantage of her, rather than her seeking him out. Eustace does seem to be generally anti-Daemon. He's also the one who pins Daemon as responsible for the death of Harwin Strong. But I think with that story he would be seen as dinging both Daemon and Rhaenyra within that cultural context. There's a recurring bit in his account of Daemon and Rhaenyra wanting to marry but Viserys forbidding it, while Mushroom attributes their sudden marriage in the Year of the Red Spring to Rhaenyra being pregnant. Given how quickly Aegon was born afterward, Mushroom is likely correct that she was pregnant. Despite his willingness to defame Rhaenyra, Eustace might not have been willing to say anything untoward about Aegon III, including him being conceived out of wedlock. Quote His claim that Criston Cole was a spurned suitor, and that Rhaenyra was the pragmatic one, might have been GRRM's signal to us that Cole was the real villain here. The multiple claims that Cole murdered Beesbury indicate that he's a villain, and his reasoning given in that council meeting rests on notions of sexual morality more common among Westerosi than GRRM's readers, so I do think he has indications of villainy. That's not the same as being a hypocrite willing to discard his vows though. Varys says of Stannis that "There's nothing so terrifying as a truly just man", and the High Sparrow is another version of that vs Cersei without the humanizing touches that Stannis gets. He's a deconstruction of a chivalric type toward villainy. On 12/31/2019 at 10:37 AM, Lord Varys said: First we have Runciter's version: I should note that TWOIAF attributes it to both maesters Runciter and Munkun. Quote For one, and as I have pointed out repeatedly, it gives Arryk Cargyll a reason to side with the Greens And as I've said repeatedly, we don't get or need justifications for the remaining Kingsguard. Quote keep in mind that he could have just defected once he was on Dragonstone Only one Kingsguard defected, and that was before actual war broke out. They generally seem to remain loyal to whoever gives them orders. Quote But, more importantly, it sets the stage for the later marriage between Daemon and Rhaenyra, establishing without a doubt that Rhaenyra Targaryen did indeed love her dashing uncle I don't think that her marriage wasn't motivated by her personal feelings for Daemon, but it also made political sense for her. Alicent would try to make her marry Aegon II if that were an option, and the Princess and the Queen hated each other. Conversely, Rhaenyra and Daemon had both formed marriage alliances with the Velaryons already. Marrying quickly meant that neither could be placed into a marriage they didn't want again. Conversely, Rhaenyra's infatuation and desire for her then sworn-shield Criston Cole acts as foreshadowing for her later relationship with Harwin Strong. I know you say there's no confirmation about them being lovers, but everything we know points in that direction and nothing the other way. Finally, despite Mushroom having Rhaenyra focused on Cole, the part of his account you are most skeptical of also foreshadows a relationship between Daemon and Rhaenyra once others are off the table. Quote If you look at later events in 120 AC it seems rather likely that Rhaenyra was the one pushing Daemon to marry her, rather than the other way around If, as Mushroom plausibly says, she was pregnant, then I would agree Rhaenyra would demand it. If, as I also think is plausible, Daemon was behind the deaths of Laenor and Harwin, his desire to marry Rhaenyra serves as motivation. I don't think we need to choose one vs the other when it can be both. Quote Daemon having the hots for the young and beautiful Rhaenyra 111 AC makes some kind of sense She would have been about 14 then. GRRM is bad at math and has an excessive number of consummated marriages at young ages, but girls tend to be under-developed in middleschool, so that the line attributed to Daemon about her still being perceived as just a young girl rather than an object of sexual desire makes sense. On the other hand, the common occurrence of marriages being arranged at young ages does raise the issue of why Viserys wouldn't try to get his daugter married off sooner if he knew she'd lost her maidenhead. Quote It also makes sense from a schemer's perspective that Daemon would use Rhaenyra's love for him to convince Viserys I to allow him to marry her - rather than personally petition him to set aside Rhea Royce yet again. The king was well-known to rarely, if at all, refuse Rhaenyra a wish. Her wishes hadn't included dissolving a royal marriage, which I don't think there is any precedent for. Quote Also, we do know Cole only became Lord Commander of the Kingsguard in 112 AC. In 111 AC he was still just one KG among many, meaning that in the Eustace version it is not unlikely Cole did not learn about the Daemon-Rhaenyra of 111 AC in that same year (although it may have been told to him later, after he had joined the Greens). I'm not clear on what the relevance of this is. Quote How nonsensical the Mushroom version is we can see rather easily. For once, it is an obvious ripoff from 'Les Liaisons dangerouses' from Chaderlos de Laclos, marking it as fictional content within a fictional setting. A whole lot of incidents in ASoIaF are inspired by other works of fiction from our own world. That story wouldn't exist in Westeros for Mushroom to rip off. But since I note a similar story from Westeros whose authenticity isn't disputed, it is plausible both for something like that to occur and for Mushroom to crib from it. Quote Then there is the overall framing of it which seems to be Mushroom rehashing the rumors that were told and spread about Rhaena Targaryen in her youth I think Saera Targaryen sounds closer. Quote This would involve far too many people for it to not be public knowledge very quickly In the case of Saera Targaryen, her misbehavior in a brothel was discovered because Tom Turnip was an unwilling participant in the fun. The people placed around her specifically to report if she misbehaved failed to do so. Quote Rhaenyra turning to her uncle of all people to win the love of another man also doesn't really sound convincing. Daemon Targaryen had been away for years and while Rhaenyra had always liked him, she would have made other friends and confidants during the years in-between, meaning that she would have turned to those had she designs of the sort Mushroom claimed she had, rather than her uncle (who could just as well have felt the need to inform her father about her plans). Her other friends weren't Lord Flea Bottom, who flaunted his disrespect for conventional norms and authority above himself. We don't just have Mushroom reporting that Cole was known to have Rhaenyra's eye, and we have Daemon giving advice to Rhaenyra unprompted rather than her risking something by asking someone else how to corrupt Cole. Quote Do we actually believe Rhaenyra the Slut would go without punishment after a story as damning as this - as would Mushroom, whose member was still allowed access to the princess' inner circles as late as the beginning of the Dance - really makes no sense The part about Mushroom's member is the least plausible part of his account. If he had simply discovered the truth via observing the two of them and gone to Viserys without implicating himself, that would make Viserys perfectly happy to keep Mushroom watching her. And as depraved as the story is, Mushroom doesn't have her losing her maidenhead, so she's not damaged goods who has to be married off right away. If the problem is seen as solely the fault of Lord Flea Bottom, Viserys might think the sensible thing to do would be to exile him again and try to hush up the cause. Quote Lord Lyonel's suggestion to actually execute Daemon for his crime. Claiming the maidenhead of a royal princess would be a more serious crime than merely teaching her the arts of love It should be noted that not only was Daemon not executed, but his exile wasn't permanent either. Viserys let him back after he married Laena (without Viserys' consent, hence them leaving for Essos) and had daughters. The more serious his actual crime, the stranger that is, although Viserys was unusually conciliatory. Quote In that sense Mushroom is also strangely preserving Rhaenyra's honor to a point in his salacious tale It is unexpected, as Mushroom usually adds sex to his stories. One interpretation might be that the absence of that is an indication that he's telling the truth rather than fabricating, another might be that the story is already salacious enough for Mushroom without actual intercourse. I started this thread because I thought it was odd that Eustace had Cole willing to throw away his vows while Rhaenyra acted as the voice of prudence. Quote something Eustace does not who has her lose her maidenhead to Daemon, making her an actual slut Both of them have her losing her maidenhead prior to marrying Laenor. I suppose it's debateable whether she's sluttier if she sleeps with Daemon and then asks to be able to marry him, or if she remains a virgin for some more years before pursuing sex with knights without an eye toward marrying them. Eustace's account does permit him to paint Rhaenyra as loose even from a young age, without requiring him to write something quite so tawdry as Mushroom's account, but that seems a bit Doylist rather than Watsonian. And sometimes we do have to resort to Doylist explanations of a text, even if we wish we could find Watsonian ones. Quote The idea that many an important person would have seriously considered marrying his heir to Rhaenyra the slutty expert of the art of love is also not very likely (since that would all imply that she actually had sex, never mind what Mushroom much later insisted in his Testimony). Who do we get as porential husbands for Rhaenyra after this episode of Mushroom's which allegedly came out? It came out to Viserys, but Mushroom doesn't claim it was public knowledge. Incidents where Gyldayn's sources disagree probably aren't. Quote something that would be much harder in the Eustace scenario where the truth did not actually come out properly (only Arryk Cargyll, Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Viserys I knew about it in this scneario). How many people know in Mushroom's scenario? There's Mushroom himself, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Viserys, Lyonel and Eustace named. Even with Criston Cole we could read the line about his reaction as a reference to what Mushroom said happened years later, with Mushroom having informed Viserys prior to Rhaenyra feeling ready to seduce Cole. That does leave Eustace as one Green sympathizer, but nobody has him as a politicker who leaks info. Mushroom could have simply made up the details of what happened after he informed Viserys, since a jester isn't expected to be such meetings, although you are right that Mushroom could have heard rumors about the deliberations over Daemon and made up the story leading up to it. Quote Eustace's version has much more internal consistency than Mushroom's could ever hope to have, especially when compared to what had happened before Mushroom's account of Rhaenyra's relationship with Laenor and Qarl is internally inconsistent within a much shorter space, and is actually called out as such. But I think his second statement which has Rhaenyra leaving Laenor to Qarl while she laid with Harwin is true. And his account of Rhaenyra and Cole isn't inconsistent if you re-interpret one line, although I still find the earlier story less plausible than the later one. Quote rubs salt into his wounds by actually pointing out that his promises of love and faithfulness would be worth nothing if he was actually willing to break his KG vows for her That bit actually sounds logical and impersonal enough that it doesn't read like rubbing salt in the wound to me. A woman could even say that to a kingsguard/night's watchmen/septon/maester to let him down gently. It wouldn't work as well if he just wanted to get laid without marriage though. Quote Cole actually had a good reason to believe Rhaenyra might entertain the idea of becoming his wife had the circumstances been different Cole was the son of a steward, below even the level of Petyr Baelish and old enough to understand that. Even prior to joining the kingsguard he was unlikely to marry a highborn lady, much less the heir to the Iron Throne. He had no means to bring with him to Essos to support even a minor noble woman, and the Realm's Delight whose wishes were typically indulged by the king does indeed seem fantastically unlikely to accept living as the wife of an exiled sellsword without even his own company. And while I doubt Mellos' theory about Viserys having Harwin assassinated, I definitely think that he'd have Criston killed even in Essos for pulling that. I really don't think he'd remain Lord Commander if Rhaenyra revealed he had proposed it, which she would have a motivation to do after what Cole did at her wedding tourney. I have come across people who think Mushroom's account of her training and coming onto Cole first is correct, while Eustace's about Cole later coming to her is true, and in that cause Cole would have more reason to believe she was willing, but my preference is for a more consistent characterization them rather than a reversal. Quote The idea that Rhaenyra would believe that Laenor Velaryon - being sexually attracted to men as per Mushroom's version of events [...] would care about her sexual conduct if he was not exactly eager or willing to ever share the bed with her as her lord husband is not particularly likely She did say "perhaps", and this was before she knew if Laenor merely had an obvious preference for men or if he had no willingness at all to father heirs on her. Quote only he indicates Laenor may have been gay - general sources only indicate Laenor had no bastards nor a particular interest in women, which is a slightly different thing Eustace's account of Qarl Correy's motivation for killing Laenor makes it clear, even if Eustace doesn't come right out and say their relationship was sexual. Especially when you combine that with his agreement that the two spouses were rarely with each other but instead with their sworn shields. Quote She would have to be rather foolish to talk like that. Poor judgment does seem to be in character for her. Quote Aside from that, those words of Rhaenyra's as per Mushroom very much establish the fact that Laenor Velaryon definitely could have rejected Rhaenyra Targaryen as his bride They establish that Rhaenyra thought so. Quote Rhaenyra also has no real motivation to do what she does in Mushroom's version. She does not want to seduce Cole because she loves him No, she actually tells Cole she's giving him her maidenhead because she loves him and Mushroom earlier said she had trained under Daemon specifically because she "yearned for" Cole. Quote she does not want to run away with him or marry him Agreed. That's not an option. Having him remain her sworn shield while she's married to Laenor is though, since that's what happened with Harwin. Harwin would have been eligible to marry her after Laenor died, although I'm sure Viserys would oppose it, while that would obviously not be the case for Criston. You could call it the Cersei option. And she and Jaime do love each other, in their own horrible way. Quote she just wants to fuck him That's not "no real motivation". Characters, including her, do have that as a motivation in ASoIaF. Quote possibly getting him the same treatment as Lucamore the Lusty got from the Old King Possibly, although since Viserys tried to hush it up with Harwin he could do the same in response to mere talk about Rhaenyra and Criston in contrast to Lucamore's three marriages. Quote The idea that Rhaenyra may have had sex with Harwin Strong in that night - and that Mushroom having access to Rhaenyra's apartments in the Red Keep as her close confidant may have found them abed together - could make some sense if you consider the strain she was under in those days, being forced by her father to marry a man she did not want to marry. Her blowing off steam/having sex at least once with a man she may have desired if not loved (there is no good evidence that the Strong affair continued after her marriage) makes some sort of sense. I agree that Mushroom could have witnessed that bit while making up the part preceding it. I think whenever he or any source gives an account we should ask which parts seem plausible. And for me Rhaenyra coming onto Cole seems more in character given the other material we have than the reverse. Quote But Rhaenyra wanting to have sex with Cole just to possibly put a stop to her marriage makes no sense. It's not "just" that, which is why she says "and perhaps" after giving a sufficient justification. Quote Nor do Cole's actions at the wedding tourney make sense through the lense of the Mushroom tale. Cole cannot know about Harwin and Rhaenyra unless Rhaenyra did what she wanted to accomplish with her failed Cole affair It seems FAR easier for Cole to infer Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship in Mushroom's account, where she first comes onto her sworn shield and says she wants to give her maidenhead to him rather than her betrothed, and is then seen favoring a strong young knight who hasn't taken those oaths which Cole adhered to. He would also have more confirmation of Laenor's sexuality if the man's own betrothed indicated as much. He has no such information in Eustace's account, which doesn't even affirm that she and Harwin had any sort of affair at that point. Quote So why would Cole be furious at any of the men he attacked during the tourney? For making a mockery of that very wedding, consistent with the puritanical attitudes he expresses in that council meeting. It's his motivations regarding them in Eustace's account that go unexplained. Quote she would have started to loathe this man vowing to destroy him rather than the other way around The kingsguard aren't really political figures that one sets out to destroy. They have no lands or titles to lose, no marriages to block or children to mess with, and not much in the way of promotion other than becoming LC as Cole already was. Although as noted his very public rejection of her and damage wrought in the tourney should have been enough motivation for her to reveal his actions in Eustace's account. Under Mushroom's account, she doesn't really have anything to use against him. Quote In fact, we would expect to hear that she dismissed him from her service, and Cole only ending up with Alicent because she took him in, rather than him turning his back on her. Why wouldn't he turn his back on her if he were as digusted as Mushroom claims? And the dismissal of as prestigious a knight as Criston was would diminish the prestige of the Blacks, just as his joining the Greens was a real coup for them. The motivation is stronger on his side than hers. Quote Mushroom is the only source who ever indicates Rhaenyra Targaryen was sexually interested in Cole. Other sources only indicate 'the love' Rhaenyra felt for the man was that of a young girl towards her 'white knight' (i.e. some sort of idealized and chaste chivalry love thing). Chivalric romance can be interpreted in multiple ways, and in the case of Rhaenyra chastity has never been a characteristic of hers. Alicent's comment about Cole was indicating a sexual rather than chaste aspect, and while you can dismiss that as just Alicent badmouthing her rival, it's not Mushroom. It's also not just Mushroom but multiple characters who claim that Rhaenyra had a sexual relationship with Harwin, and this makes it seem even more likely that she would be sexually interested in Criston, who was not only a better knight than Harwin but generally regarded as handsome by the ladies. And while their infautations should be taken as signs of immaturity, I think we are supposed to take Sansa and Jeyne's feelings toward Beric and Loras as early glimmers of near-pubescent sexuality rather than purely chaste things. Later in the books we get more of that from Sansa as well as the two younger Stark POVs, although those two are less prone to tie it together with chivalry. For an adult version of Sansa we have Brienne, who fell in love with Renly when she was a young girl, and is implied to be falling in love with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Against this I suppose you could argue that Rhaenyra was only sexually interested in bad boys (and that perhaps Sansa with the Hound and Brienne with the Kingslayer represent a similar shift toward mature sexuality), but she still would have just been a teenager when she came onto Cole. Quote Alicent Hightower paints Ser Criston as a threat to Rhaenyra's honor, reputation, and maidenhead and not the princess as a threat to Cole's honor and vows Kingsguard are disposable in a way that princesses are not. It entirely makes sense to be more concerned about one than the other, although Alicent is going to be primarily motivated by an opportunity to slight one rival with some collateral damage to her supporter. And there is never any indication outside of the one passage which incited this thread of Cole ever doing anything to indicate he'd be willing to give an inch on his vows of chastity. Quote only in part driven by jealousy and loathing of Rhaenyra - and in another part by genuine concern Does she ever show genuine concern for Rhaenyra elsewhere? Quote impregnated by an ambitious and l(o)us(t)y knight of the Kingsguard I don't know how ambition in a kingsguard could make them more likely to impregnate the princess. There's also no indication of Criston being lusty. Quote there are no quirks in characterization I have to disagree with you there. Criston is never portrayed as willing to break his vows elsewhere, and Rhaenyra didn't seem to care much about marriage oaths. Quote Not to mention that this is also pretty much true in general - Mushroom is a very unreliable source, a liar and thrower of dirt most of the dirt I would say that Mushroom has a pattern of salacious storytelling and inserting himself into the narrative, but also seems to be right about a number of things. Gyldayn has a low opinion of him as a source, but he actually phrases some of it as not "wanting to believe" the things he says. There seems to be a scholarly preference for a relatively dry account, but with GRRM the truth often is salacious (I think there's some incoherence because Gyldayn keeps mentioning salacious rumors even if he says we shouldn't believe them). Similarly, Yandel repeatedly dismisses the magical musings of Septon Barth* but we readers have reason to think that Barth is right. That consistency is a bit at odds with GRRM's statement about preferring reader debate to an omniscient text, but Yandel is Elio and Linda while Gyldayn is GRRM. I think the multiple sources with disagreements is intended to create ambiguity rather than to have one be reliable. *Including one instance where he dismisses both Mushroom and Barth about an egg-laying dragon while readers know from maester Aemon that dragons can change sex. Quote The apparently prevalent consensus among many readers who don't actually bother to investigate the text in detail that Mushroom is in favor of the Blacks and Eustace in favor of the Greens is also never actually made in the text as given per Gyldayn I think Munkun/Orwyle is the source noted as being biased in favor of the Blacks and Eustace was chosen to balance him, while Mushroom is our primary source within the Blacks and has a different sort of bias than a mere partisan one, even if he did like Rhaenyra. Quote Mushroom supposedly liked Rhaenyra (and very much disliked her son and successor, Aegon III, whose court he left for White Harbor of all places) but that didn't stop him from throwing dirt at her or her son or her two husbands. Vice versa, Eustace may be biased towards Aegon II, but this didn't stop him from telling the truth about many of the unpleasant things they did In one case you call it "throwing dirt", while in another it's "telling the truth". I don't think you can depend on that generalization quite so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I should note that TWOIAF attributes it to both maesters Runciter and Munkun. Without TWoIaF pointing out where the source there is, we have to go with the latest publication of the matter. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: And as I've said repeatedly, we don't get or need justifications for the remaining Kingsguard. Who said we need or want? The fact is that we do have such a motivation in the Eustace account? You referencing things we do not need does not change that. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Only one Kingsguard defected, and that was before actual war broke out. They generally seem to remain loyal to whoever gives them orders. They are tertiary side characters, their motivations are not relevant to our historical sources (else we would have them). However, Arryk and Erryk were twins who killed each other, men who became the protagonists of songs and stories. Their motivations do matter to Gyldayn's audience as well as some of his sources. And Eustace's story does provide us with a possible motivation for Ser Arryk's deeds. You cannot (and did not) explain away that. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I don't think that her marriage wasn't motivated by her personal feelings for Daemon, but it also made political sense for her. Alicent would try to make her marry Aegon II if that were an option, and the Princess and the Queen hated each other. Conversely, Rhaenyra and Daemon had both formed marriage alliances with the Velaryons already. Marrying quickly meant that neither could be placed into a marriage they didn't want again. Conversely, Rhaenyra's infatuation and desire for her then sworn-shield Criston Cole acts as foreshadowing for her later relationship with Harwin Strong. I know you say there's no confirmation about them being lovers, but everything we know points in that direction and nothing the other way. Finally, despite Mushroom having Rhaenyra focused on Cole, the part of his account you are most skeptical of also foreshadows a relationship between Daemon and Rhaenyra once others are off the table. If there is no confirmation we cannot be sure. But the crucial point is that Mushroom does nothing to establish a pre-marital connection between Rhaenyra and Daemon on Rhaenyra's side. To her the dashing uncle was just a teacher of the arts of a love, a man she used to be able to seduce a knight of the Kingsguard. The Eustace gives us a reason why Rhaenyra Targaryen would entertain the notion of fucking and eventually marrying her aging uncle in 120 AC. As the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne she could have younger, richer, more powerful man. Widows and widowers are not easily pressed into marriages (and neither are people like Laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra, as it happens), especially not such who have already done their dynastic duties and produced children. There is no indication that anyone wanted Rhaenyra or Daemon to remarry, so we don't have any reason to assume they would - especially not this early after both their spouses had died. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: If, as Mushroom plausibly says, she was pregnant, then I would agree Rhaenyra would demand it. If, as I also think is plausible, Daemon was behind the deaths of Laenor and Harwin, his desire to marry Rhaenyra serves as motivation. I don't think we need to choose one vs the other when it can be both. We can't pretend to know what really went on there. And we are not supposed to pretend we know. If George wanted us to know he would have given us better clues. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: She would have been about 14 then. GRRM is bad at math and has an excessive number of consummated marriages at young ages, but girls tend to be under-developed in middleschool, so that the line attributed to Daemon about her still being perceived as just a young girl rather than an object of sexual desire makes sense. On the other hand, the common occurrence of marriages being arranged at young ages does raise the issue of why Viserys wouldn't try to get his daugter married off sooner if he knew she'd lost her maidenhead. We know Daemon Targaryen did like his maidens young - and Rhaenyra was the most beautiful and most desirable woman of her generation. I'm not saying the man did love her (we cannot know that) but I definitely buy Eustace's account that he fucked her in 111 AC, and that Ser Arryk found them. If you want you can combine Mushroom's and Eustace's account - perhaps his seduction thing started as the 'I gonna teach you how to crack the white knight' routine (after all, that very much is the literary reference there - the Vicomte actually does fuck the cloisture girl really, really hard) and Mushroom's nonsense is just the 'Rhaenyra remained a maiden' story (How could he possibly know that, anyway? He can't!). But I prefer to dismiss the entire episode as nonsense because it is not believable. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Her wishes hadn't included dissolving a royal marriage, which I don't think there is any precedent for. And how is that an argument against her trying? 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I'm not clear on what the relevance of this is. It implies that Eustace's account is accordance with Rhaenyra Targaryen not becoming soiled goods in 111 AC - or her afterwards being publicly denounced as a fornicator and adulterer (she did sleep with her married uncle). Eustace's account has a Kingsguard finding out what they did, and telling the king who kept everything under the rug so that even other informer courtiers like the Grand Maester and the queen didn't know what actually transpired. Mushroom's scenario explicitly doesn't give the event the same amount of privacy. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: A whole lot of incidents in ASoIaF are inspired by other works of fiction from our own world. That story wouldn't exist in Westeros for Mushroom to rip off. But since I note a similar story from Westeros whose authenticity isn't disputed, it is plausible both for something like that to occur and for Mushroom to crib from it. Sure, but that serves as a meta-hint that it might be fiction. If it were the only clue it wouldn't be worth much ... but it isn't. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I think Saera Targaryen sounds closer. Not to me. Saera's case is based on facts. The stories about Rhaenyra and Rhaena are not. That is why there was never a trial. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Her other friends weren't Lord Flea Bottom, who flaunted his disrespect for conventional norms and authority above himself. We don't just have Mushroom reporting that Cole was known to have Rhaenyra's eye, and we have Daemon giving advice to Rhaenyra unprompted rather than her risking something by asking someone else how to corrupt Cole. Rhaenyra was a precocious girl, not a stupid one. She must have known what her uncle was, and she wouldn't have used a man like him to seduce another man. As the Realm's Delight it is rather odd to assume she wouldn't already know the arts of love by the age of 14. That is pretty old for Westerosi standards - men would have tried to get under her gowns since she was twelve. Especially since that could make them king one day. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: The part about Mushroom's member is the least plausible part of his account. It is? But Mushroom's member comes up in many of his stories, meaning it is a rather well-attested part of his Testimony. If you remove the member everything else cumbles down. I mean, if he and the member weren't there, how could he possibly know all that? He must have gone with the princess and the prince to know what happened - meaning they must have taken him along on dragonback, they must have had their sex lessons with Mushroom being there, physically, for him to actually know it happened, they must have taken him along to the brothels for his member to play the part since it is not said that Daemon brought the whores into the Red Keep. If he just overheard talk then he wouldn't be really an accurate source, he would have just overheard stuff, i.e. be witness to people claiming or believing certain things. In that sense I'd say if you buy this particular story you have to swallow it whole. But you are wrong that this story was kept under the rugs. Gyldayn tells us that, as per Mushroom's account, it did come out. Unlike Eustace Mushroom does not claim the story was just told the king, it is said it came out, i.e. became public knowledge. And that would have meant that Rhaenyra's reputation would have been destroyed for good. She wouldn't have remained Heir Apparent. Laenor Velaryon would have never married her, Alicent would have never considered her fit to marry her son, and nobody would have ever considered to offer the hand of the slut to the Prince of Dorne. It is also rather ludicrous that Rhaenyra (and Daemon, after the marriage) would have suffered Mushroom on her island or in her presence in all the years after 111 AC. They wouldn't even have bought his 'I'm a lackwit' routine thereafter. The main criteria you have to differentiate between fact and fiction in the madhouse that is the Testimony of Mushroom is to look where his fantasies can fit with reality as depicted by other sources. And that is not often the case. The strong case for the parentage of the Hull boys is that there are hints that Addam and Alyn had a close relationship with Corlys outside the Mushroomverse. Still, that is not completely conclusive since grandfathers can also be close to their grandsons (and Corlys was also close to his grandsons by Laenor). But stuff like the brothel queens, the Ironrod piece, Beesbury being thrown out the window, etc. just hang in the air. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: If he had simply discovered the truth via observing the two of them and gone to Viserys without implicating himself, that would make Viserys perfectly happy to keep Mushroom watching her. And as depraved as the story is, Mushroom doesn't have her losing her maidenhead, so she's not damaged goods who has to be married off right away. If the problem is seen as solely the fault of Lord Flea Bottom, Viserys might think the sensible thing to do would be to exile him again and try to hush up the cause. That wouldn't fly because he couldn't tell the kind of story he claims he had a part in without implicating himself. Also, he makes it clear that while he was a main reason why this story came out, it wasn't the only reason. The scenario we have to imagine in the Mushroom scenario is indeed a Saera scenario - i.e. some kind of investigation and interrogation of a number of witnesses. Viserys I wouldn't have confronted his brother and daughter over this affair if the only 'accusation' was the talk of his lackwit fool. And he definitely would have removed Cole from Rhaenyra's side after that - both because he would have felt it improper to keep him there and because Cole, being abhorred by Rhaenyra's advances, would have requested the removal (which actually did get later, in the real universe). 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: It is unexpected, as Mushroom usually adds sex to his stories. One interpretation might be that the absence of that is an indication that he's telling the truth rather than fabricating, another might be that the story is already salacious enough for Mushroom without actual intercourse. I started this thread because I thought it was odd that Eustace had Cole willing to throw away his vows while Rhaenyra acted as the voice of prudence. That is only odd to you because you read the garbled versions of TRP and TWoIaF before reading the full account. The actual odd part is the Mushroom version. Mushroom's claims in his Testimony are worthless in this context. You have to keep in mind that the Testimony was written years after the Dance. It wasn't there as 'evidence' when the things allegedly came to light. Viserys I would have had a version of the Mushroom story backed by the testimonies of Mushroom, Cole, Daemon, Rhaenyra, and whatever whores and panders had been part of the scheme. They may have all claimed neither Daemon nor any of the patrons frequenting the brothels where Rhaenyra hung out actually had carnal knowledge of her - but who would have treated that as truth? Nobody, in a society as misogynistic as this. Her father may not have thrown her to the dogs, but he would have never allowed such a slut to succeed to the Iron Throne. In fact, if I were to entertain the truth of Mushroom's account then the one thing I'd doubt is the idea that Daemon didn't fuck Rhaenyra. That is the part that makes the least sense. And perhaps, perhaps Mushroom would have invented that little detail to protect Rhaenyra's honor. But I rather believed he no longer didn't give a damn about her and her entire inbred family and just invented stuff to entertain whatever morons were interested in what he had to say. We don't know much about his later life, but it really seems his career took a turn for the worse after he left KL. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Both of them have her losing her maidenhead prior to marrying Laenor. I suppose it's debateable whether she's sluttier if she sleeps with Daemon and then asks to be able to marry him, or if she remains a virgin for some more years before pursuing sex with knights without an eye toward marrying them. Eustace's account does permit him to paint Rhaenyra as loose even from a young age, without requiring him to write something quite so tawdry as Mushroom's account, but that seems a bit Doylist rather than Watsonian. And sometimes we do have to resort to Doylist explanations of a text, even if we wish we could find Watsonian ones. Eustace is not presented as a guy who invented salacious stories. If Rhaenyra had pulled the things Mushroom's claims she did he would have known. The king would have told him, Cole would have told him, possibly Rhaenyra would have told him, etc. He was as much a close confidant of the royal court as Mushroom, possibly even closer. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: It came out to Viserys, but Mushroom doesn't claim it was public knowledge. Incidents where Gyldayn's sources disagree probably aren't. No, no, that's not how we can view things, and it is not how histories are written. They are not written with a later consensus or majority opinion of events in mind, and definitely not with the knowledge from unknown conflicting sources in mind (Eustace and Mushroom and Orwyle/Munkun didn't know the other histories when they wrote them). There is what happened, and then there is the Mushroomverse, the Eustaceverse, the Orwyle-Munkunverse - and the points where they all/most of them allign are rather close to what happened (without that being confirmation). Mushroom's accounts are not secret addendums to an official history - they paint their very own picture of reality. We only have pieces of that picture, those Gyldayn gives us, but there is no indication that the narrative he tells completely alligns with other histories but for the points Gyldayn considers important enough deviations to quote them. Instead, he mostly turns to the more problematic sources when there is a problem to solve - something more reliable official accounts cannot do (or do not touch upon at all). In that sense, it simply doesn't do to assume that when Mushroom claims something that this thing wasn't public knowledge in his scenario - especially not when it was effectively an event that must have been public knowledge. And that goes for things like the brothel queens and also the story of 111 AC. The fact that nobody else reports or alludes to a thing that, if it happened, couldn't have been kept under the rug - and that Runciter and Alicent and Eustace all make no mention or allusion to that whatsoever pretty much confirms that this is just nonsense. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: How many people know in Mushroom's scenario? There's Mushroom himself, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Viserys, Lyonel and Eustace named. Even with Criston Cole we could read the line about his reaction as a reference to what Mushroom said happened years later, with Mushroom having informed Viserys prior to Rhaenyra feeling ready to seduce Cole. That does leave Eustace as one Green sympathizer, but nobody has him as a politicker who leaks info. Mushroom could have simply made up the details of what happened after he informed Viserys, since a jester isn't expected to be such meetings, although you are right that Mushroom could have heard rumors about the deliberations over Daemon and made up the story leading up to it. He makes it explicitly clear that the story came out. He does not say it was kept under the rug. In fact, nowhere in Mushroom's account is even an indication that anyone tried to keep this story under the rug. This is why you actually have to read the source material in close detail and not imagine how things may have gone or what may have happened so that this thing could reasonably work. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Mushroom's account of Rhaenyra's relationship with Laenor and Qarl is internally inconsistent within a much shorter space, and is actually called out as such. But I think his second statement which has Rhaenyra leaving Laenor to Qarl while she laid with Harwin is true. And his account of Rhaenyra and Cole isn't inconsistent if you re-interpret one line, although I still find the earlier story less plausible than the later one. That is nothing I touched about here, and it is not something that's part of that discussion. Accounts where we have only Mushroom cannot really be compared to other accounts. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: That bit actually sounds logical and impersonal enough that it doesn't read like rubbing salt in the wound to me. A woman could even say that to a kingsguard/night's watchmen/septon/maester to let him down gently. It wouldn't work as well if he just wanted to get laid without marriage though. It is perfectly consistent with a Rhaenyra who never actually cared much about Cole as a lover much less a potential husband. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Cole was the son of a steward, below even the level of Petyr Baelish and old enough to understand that. Even prior to joining the kingsguard he was unlikely to marry a highborn lady, much less the heir to the Iron Throne. The text goes against you there - sure he, was of very low birth, but he was dashing, handsome, and very skilled. He is confirmed to have been a favorite of the ladies of the court. If a guy like Jorah Mormont can marry a Hightower of Oldtown then Criston Cole certainly could also have seduced or even married (if he didn't join the KG) the daughter of a great lord (especially if the lord had a lot of daughters). 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: He had no means to bring with him to Essos to support even a minor noble woman, and the Realm's Delight whose wishes were typically indulged by the king does indeed seem fantastically unlikely to accept living as the wife of an exiled sellsword without even his own company. Love makes people delusional. That is a rather common theme in this series. Cole seems to have lived in the same kind of fantasy world Littlefinger, Robert, perhaps Rhaegar, Sansa, Jorah, Jaime/Cersei, etc. seem to be living on occasion. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: And while I doubt Mellos' theory about Viserys having Harwin assassinated, I definitely think that he'd have Criston killed even in Essos for pulling that. And how does this affect Cole's thinking when you can neither substantiate your own beliefs nor prove that Cole the fictional character would have shared them? 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I really don't think he'd remain Lord Commander if Rhaenyra revealed he had proposed it, which she would have a motivation to do after what Cole did at her wedding tourney. That is not that bad a point - but surely Cole could have destroyed Rhaenyra for good by revealing what she tried to do with him not once but twice? And considering Rhaenyra's disinterest in Laenor one could assume she was rather happy about her the tourney turned out if that did indeed prevent her from consummating her marriage (then, at least). She certainly could have taken affront ... but she didn't have to. Not to mention that she couldn't have proved her accusations, anyway. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I have come across people who think Mushroom's account of her training and coming onto Cole first is correct, while Eustace's about Cole later coming to her is true, and in that cause Cole would have more reason to believe she was willing, but my preference is for a more consistent characterization them rather than a reversal. Don't care about picking and choosing. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: She did say "perhaps", and this was before she knew if Laenor merely had an obvious preference for men or if he had no willingness at all to father heirs on her. It is still a completely nonsensical thing to say to a knight of the KG - who cannot possibly afford having his affairs becoming public knowledge. Not to mention that there is no reason to assume he would even give a damn about her marrying a man who might not even want to sleep with her, anyway. You don't know what Rhaenyra Targaryen did know about Laenor Velaryon prior to her marriage. She may have known him much better than, say, the dead Grand Maester. He was her cousin, after all. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Eustace's account of Qarl Correy's motivation for killing Laenor makes it clear, even if Eustace doesn't come right out and say their relationship was sexual. Especially when you combine that with his agreement that the two spouses were rarely with each other but instead with their sworn shields. No, that doesn't make it clear, either. It implies Laenor wanted to replace one favorite hanger-on with another, not that this was a romance. Rich people can and do throw money at people who amuse them without there being (explicit) sexual stuff involved. And Laenor Velaryon was a very rich guy. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: They establish that Rhaenyra thought so. Which is worth much more than you trying to establish the opposite. The words of in-universe characters always trump the wishful-thinking of readers (unless we are talking about real mistakes). 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, she actually tells Cole she's giving him her maidenhead because she loves him and Mushroom earlier said she had trained under Daemon specifically because she "yearned for" Cole. But she just wants to fuck him to give her future husband a reason to reject him. She may have lusted after Cole in the Mushroom scenario, but she never offered him the post Harwin later had as father of her sons in Mushroom's story. Which is another serious problem in this story. Eustace gives Cole an actual motivation in his story - Mushroom gives Rhaenyra none, he just reuses a plot device from 111 AC. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Agreed. That's not an option. Having him remain her sworn shield while she's married to Laenor is though, since that's what happened with Harwin. Harwin would have been eligible to marry her after Laenor died, although I'm sure Viserys would oppose it, while that would obviously not be the case for Criston. You could call it the Cersei option. And she and Jaime do love each other, in their own horrible way. But that's not an option on the table. No talk about Cole becoming Rhaenyra's continued lover/the father of her children. She did offer him nothing at all. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Possibly, although since Viserys tried to hush it up with Harwin he could do the same in response to mere talk about Rhaenyra and Criston in contrast to Lucamore's three marriages. Nope, the Kingsguard and the court would demand severe punishment after such a slight on the honor of the institution. Perhaps not the castration issue, but severe punishment nonetheless. Don't ask, don't tell only works while nobody talks and nobody listens. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I agree that Mushroom could have witnessed that bit while making up the part preceding it. I think whenever he or any source gives an account we should ask which parts seem plausible. And for me Rhaenyra coming onto Cole seems more in character given the other material we have than the reverse. But there is no other material. I gave you all above. And there is essentially only Mushroom indicating that Rhaenyra had a sexual interest in Cole. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: It's not "just" that, which is why she says "and perhaps" after giving a sufficient justification. Sorry, do you really think Mushroom actually heard that conversation if it took place? I don't think so. Aside from that, it is essentially the very same story as 111 AC. If you buy that, I actually do have a great used car you might be interested in... It is just as flawless as the one I sold you two years ago. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: It seems FAR easier for Cole to infer Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship in Mushroom's account, where she first comes onto her sworn shield and says she wants to give her maidenhead to him rather than her betrothed, and is then seen favoring a strong young knight who hasn't taken those oaths which Cole adhered to. He would also have more confirmation of Laenor's sexuality if the man's own betrothed indicated as much. He has no such information in Eustace's account, which doesn't even affirm that she and Harwin had any sort of affair at that point. No reason to even entertain such things without any textual evidence providing a basis. Why not find ways to make all Mushroom's stories be the truth. I honestly like his member to be that big. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: For making a mockery of that very wedding, consistent with the puritanical attitudes he expresses in that council meeting. It's his motivations regarding them in Eustace's account that go unexplained. They don't need any explanation. He hated Rhaenyra and her family and wanted to destroy them. Case closed. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: The kingsguard aren't really political figures that one sets out to destroy. They have no lands or titles to lose, no marriages to block or children to mess with, and not much in the way of promotion other than becoming LC as Cole already was. Although as noted his very public rejection of her and damage wrought in the tourney should have been enough motivation for her to reveal his actions in Eustace's account. Under Mushroom's account, she doesn't really have anything to use against him. A woman as vindictive as Rhaenyra supposedly certainly should have fun destroying Cole after that. Just out of mere spite. It would make sense. Hell, I'd have done it, too, and I'm not particularly vindictive. But if I were a pampered royal princess who was twice rejected by a nobody who I allowed to be around me I'd not let that slide. Not to mentiont hat it could (and likely was) great fun for princes and princesses to torture and humiliate KG they did not like. They had to do everything they were told, meaning abuse would be both easy and fun. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Why wouldn't he turn his back on her if he were as digusted as Mushroom claims? And the dismissal of as prestigious a knight as Criston was would diminish the prestige of the Blacks, just as his joining the Greens was a real coup for them. The motivation is stronger on his side than hers. Because he would have done so back in 111 AC, not in 113 AC. It happened twice. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Chivalric romance can be interpreted in multiple ways, and in the case of Rhaenyra chastity has never been a characteristic of hers. It hasn't? There is only evidence for one affair. And that was her uncle, which doesn't really count for a Targaryen. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Alicent's comment about Cole was indicating a sexual rather than chaste aspect, and while you can dismiss that as just Alicent badmouthing her rival, it's not Mushroom. It's also not just Mushroom but multiple characters who claim that Rhaenyra had a sexual relationship with Harwin, and this makes it seem even more likely that she would be sexually interested in Criston, who was not only a better knight than Harwin but generally regarded as handsome by the ladies. Alicent's comment indicates Rhaenyra possibly falling prey to Cole's advances, not the other way around. Who else does say that who offers evidence? 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: And while their infautations should be taken as signs of immaturity, I think we are supposed to take Sansa and Jeyne's feelings toward Beric and Loras as early glimmers of near-pubescent sexuality rather than purely chaste things. If you want to - I don't. I can see Rhaenyra seeing Cole as a nice pet. A washed and dressed little peasant who thinks he can enter the circles of the blood of the dragon. But I cannot see her ever wanting to fuck somebody like him, even if she was physically attracted to him. She really looks down on people with his background, you can see that with her rant about Nettles, for instance. If somebody else but Mushroom would indicate an actual interest on her part I'd consider it. But the way it is I've already wasted for too many words on this non-issue. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Later in the books we get more of that from Sansa as well as the two younger Stark POVs, although those two are less prone to tie it together with chivalry. For an adult version of Sansa we have Brienne, who fell in love with Renly when she was a young girl, and is implied to be falling in love with the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Against this I suppose you could argue that Rhaenyra was only sexually interested in bad boys (and that perhaps Sansa with the Hound and Brienne with the Kingslayer represent a similar shift toward mature sexuality), but she still would have just been a teenager when she came onto Cole. A completely different kind of teenager, one much more precocious than Sansa - and even Sansa is very aware of social boundaries and improper behavior. She is never going to allow a creature like Sandor to touch her unless she is in a situation where she has no other choice, even if her sexual fantasies about him were to deepen. She would look for replacement Sandors of proper rank and breeding (and looks, of course). 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Kingsguard are disposable in a way that princesses are not. It entirely makes sense to be more concerned about one than the other, although Alicent is going to be primarily motivated by an opportunity to slight one rival with some collateral damage to her supporter. And there is never any indication outside of the one passage which incited this thread of Cole ever doing anything to indicate he'd be willing to give an inch on his vows of chastity. Does she ever show genuine concern for Rhaenyra elsewhere? We do know that Alicent and Rhaenyra originally were friends. The real rivalry took up steam in 111 AC with the tourney. The parties developed shortly before that, so her comment taking place before the comment should be seen within in this milder rivalry context and not with hindsight. If you want to interpret it badly then you can interpret it as Alicent trying to separate Cole and Rhaenyra so she lose a devoted follower and protector. Just as Alicent's shitty remarks about Laenor's sons also only had one purpose - to poison his marriage, and drive a wedge between Laenor, Rhaenyra, the king, the entire family. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I don't know how ambition in a kingsguard could make them more likely to impregnate the princess. There's also no indication of Criston being lusty. Sure, Cole also supposedly had a thing for Alys Rivers, no? 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I have to disagree with you there. Criston is never portrayed as willing to break his vows elsewhere, and Rhaenyra didn't seem to care much about marriage oaths. He betrayed his king and crowned a usurper, the worst thing a KG could possibly do. There is reason why this man isn't exactly considered an exemplatory KG. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I would say that Mushroom has a pattern of salacious storytelling and inserting himself into the narrative, but also seems to be right about a number of things. You already linked that, and it is bad write-up based on an outdated/incomplete text version. - Daemon-Alicent never took place as per George's final text (although that's something that makes sense to explain the Otto-Daemon issues which are now without good explanation aside from some background detail the author doesn't care about). - Mushroom's version of Rhaenyra-Cole makes no sense. - Joffrey-Laenor's relationship is unclear and Mushroom doesn't go into any detail there, anyway. - Fantasizing about how Rhaenyra-Laenor's marriage may have worked can be fun, but there is nothing of substance there. Even Gyldayn makes no sense there, considering there is no contradiction there, since Rhaenyra could have fucked both Laenor/Qarl and Harwin, depending on her mood or the availability of all of them. But the contradiction as such calls the entire narrative into question, since Mushroom, being present and a supposed witness and expert on events should be able to provide us with an internally consistent narrative, rather than just salacious anecdotes. Thus we can ignore his entire narrative there. - Trying to resolve the murder mysteries is a waste of time. It can be fun if you realize it is pointless. - Since I very much doubt Rhaenyra gave a damn about Laenor's death, I'm inclined to believe Rhaenyra comforted Daemon, not the other way around, but for that there is no textual support. So perhaps Mushroom is right there ... or not. - Aegon III being conceived before the wedding could be the case. But if it was it was hardly an accident on Rhaenyra's part and possibly the incentive Daemon or she needed to convince themselve to marry. Because if there is one who could have had access to moon tea it was the Princess of Dragonstone. And so on. Why don't you start a thread and give us a list what Mushroomalia you buy? And especially why. And try to read it them by ignoring your preconceptions. Even while I don't like Aegon II I'm not sure if I buy Mushroom's account of what he did the night his father died. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Gyldayn has a low opinion of him as a source, but he actually phrases some of it as not "wanting to believe" the things he says. There seems to be a scholarly preference for a relatively dry account, but with GRRM the truth often is salacious (I think there's some incoherence because Gyldayn keeps mentioning salacious rumors even if he says we shouldn't believe them). Gyldayn likes things very salacious. He is very obsessed with the Coryanne Wylde story. Probably wrote a thesis about the various versions, trying to get to 'the truth behind the legend'. He seems to be a pretty good judge of character when discussing salacious claims that can be discussed (i.e. when there are alternatives to be considered). When there is nothing to be done but mentioning them - he mentions them and moves on. That's what you do if you want your reader to be the ultimate judge of what to believe. His discussions of the brothel queens, for instance, is a very fine discussion, as is his discussion of the alleged murder of Helaena Targaryen. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: Similarly, Yandel repeatedly dismisses the magical musings of Septon Barth* but we readers have reason to think that Barth is right. That consistency is a bit at odds with GRRM's statement about preferring reader debate to an omniscient text, but Yandel is Elio and Linda while Gyldayn is GRRM. I think the multiple sources with disagreements is intended to create ambiguity rather than to have one be reliable. Barth is only right where Barth is actually right (i.e. things have been already confirmed in the main series like the raven issue, for instance). In other cases he might be close to the truth without having the whole truth or the really accurate picture, or he might just point in the right direction. I think TWoIaF gave us the how of the Doom of Valyria (the assassination of too many of the powerful sorcerers who maintained the spells who controlled the Fourteen Flames) but not the who and the why (the Faceless Men for their own reasons). But whether some magical stuff like 'dragon sexes', 'dragon origins', 'the blood of the dragon of the Valyrian dragonlords' will ever be addressed or revealed in the main series I'd very much question. Those are background world-building details very few people care about. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: *Including one instance where he dismisses both Mushroom and Barth about an egg-laying dragon while readers know from maester Aemon that dragons can change sex. That is an interesting case ... if there were such eggs they should resurface eventually. And then we'll know. If not, then the whole thing is just a nice episode. 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: I think Munkun/Orwyle is the source noted as being biased in favor of the Blacks and Eustace was chosen to balance him, while Mushroom is our primary source within the Blacks and has a different sort of bias than a mere partisan one, even if he did like Rhaenyra. Orwyle/Munkun is not indicated to be biased in favor of either side - Munkun's great work is the best treatise on the Dance as a whole, with there being some minor quibbles about the court intrigue stuff he draws from Orwyle who tried to paint himself and events he was involved in a positive light. That means Orwyle makes himself more noble/heroic and downplays ugly events he was involved with/witnessed. Since he was free effectively only during the reign of Aegon II in KL (and the short 'reign' of Trystane Truefyre) we can see him as downplaying/excusing many problematic things by the Greens. Also, when he wrote his confessions (which he did not start while being thrown in a black cell by Rhaenyra but after Cregan Stark had arrested him, to continue after his re-arrest during the Handship of Tyland Lannister) to ingratiate himself with King Aegon III and his government, we can be reasonably certain that his overall stance should not be to paint Aegon II as the rightful king, his ascension as the right thing to do, and the Green cause as something that was ultimately justified and fine (and he does indeed not do that in his very account of the Small Council session where he desperately tries to portray himself as a guy who leaned towards/was trying to support Rhaenyra). 42 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said: In one case you call it "throwing dirt", while in another it's "telling the truth". I don't think you can depend on that generalization quite so much. We do know that Mushroom isn't a historian. He does not want to tell the truth, he wants to entertain. That's his core desire. And he tries to entertain by telling salacious tales which make the royals look like sex-obsessed fuck-ups. That's his stick. There are some accurate stories in there (after all, there are also some genuine affairs in royal circles) but for the most part his testimony is just garbage. Oddly enough, I find certain straightforward elements of his narrative - his role in the death of Joffrey Velaryon (not telling Rhaenyra that he went away), or the claim that he promped Jace to look for dragonseeds not that far-fetched. I don't buy he secretly ruled or stuff like that, but him pointing out that they should look for lowborn Targaryen descendants is something that could actually have come from a freak/lowborn outsider because the highborn Targaryens and Velaryons may have never ever considered such an idea plausible. And since many lowborns tried to mount dragons ... perhaps even Mushroom tried to mount Silverwing, supposedly the most docile of the Dragonstonian dragons. The sexual episodes are different animals, especially when they pile up or are recycled for the very same person (as they were for Cole and Rhaenyra). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Viserys could remove more tongues, but he'd prefer not to give Rhaenyra's detractors more ammunition. Hence sending Harwin away from Rhaenyra. Quote If he didn't want to give them more ammo, he shouldn't remove tongues at all don't you think?? 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Harwin has been in Rhaenyra's court, surrounded by people she can more easily control. Quote Then the more reason to not move him and Harwin also was with her at KL and never talked or implied much. 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: It doesn't have to be the result of actions he's thought through. I don't think Harwin is presented as any kind of political plotter, just a big guy said to be less scrupulous than Cole. At Harrenhal he'd be expected to marry and have legitimate kids, without maintaining any contact or recognition with his bastards. They're probably not going to be at the forefront of his mind. Quote I do think it can't have other way, Harwin's bastards are going to be Kings, hell we're even told that Harwin was there at the moment of their birth and out of the blue he just forgets them and endangers himself and his house?? 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: But what rarely applies to gossip? Quote Gossips. They are widespread and they don't know bounds... Except for this one which wasonly limited to the Red Keep and Driftmark. 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Which smallfolk would you expect to say something that didn't? Quote Someone, anyone. 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: No, we get specific people quoted talking about them, as well as the nature of the relationship between Rhaenyra and Laenor. There's no need to add "It's said they were bastards" if you already have "X and Y said they were bastards", although the text also has "the greens" more generically talking that way. Quote And that's not the case with the bastardy of Joff or Daeron 2, we have the Green court talking about it and Corlys nephews talking about it but that doesn't mean or imply that everyone was talking about it. Especially because this rumour is not as widespread as the rest of their kind. 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: Mellos is the only person to suggest Viserys' responsibility, why would he raise the possibility in his own private notes to express doubts, particularly as he gives no reason why we should NOT believe that theory? Quote Probably because he's suggesting them instead of confirming. 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: We don't have all that many quotes from Mellos. Quote Just his doubts and guesses. 15 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said: We simply don't have reasons for why many people chose various sides. Cole giving an argument for why one claimant should have the throne rather than another is something he gets as a result of being more in the focus of historians for his central importance. We do have educated guesses, half the Reach rises for the Greens because both their male only believes and the indlunce the Redwynes-Hightowers , the Stormlands rises for convenience, we don't know why the Lannisters rises, i think thatTyland being on the Green side helps and the Riverlords, including Grover Tully, rises for male only believes, no one care much about them beng bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 On 1/2/2020 at 10:28 PM, Lord Varys said: The fact is that we do have such a motivation in the Eustace account? You referencing things we do not need does not change that. We don't have Arryk suggesting himself for the job, he was picked for a stealth mission to retaliate for Jaehaerys because he was an identical twin to Erryk and familiar with Dragonstone and could thus sneak in. And we aren't given any specific motivation for Erryk to kill his brother either, that's just what they did. Viserys wasn't around to enforce any prohibition on Arryk telling his twin what he'd seen of Rhaenyra, so he certainly could have done so when he visited with Orwyle for the parley, but neither budged. Quote They are tertiary side characters, their motivations are not relevant to our historical sources (else we would have them). However, Arryk and Erryk were twins who killed each other, men who became the protagonists of songs and stories. Their motivations do matter to Gyldayn's audience as well as some of his sources. And Eustace's story does provide us with a possible motivation for Ser Arryk's deeds. Nobody refers to it at as a motivation or speculates about their motivations. Quote If there is no confirmation we cannot be sure. True. Quote But the crucial point is that Mushroom does nothing to establish a pre-marital connection between Rhaenyra and Daemon on Rhaenyra's side. To her the dashing uncle was just a teacher of the arts of a love, a man she used to be able to seduce a knight of the Kingsguard. Come on, this is her first sexual experience we know of and they're doing everything short of intercourse. This sort of thing would be called "grooming" of a child nowadays. Quote The Eustace gives us a reason why Rhaenyra Targaryen would entertain the notion of fucking and eventually marrying her aging uncle in 120 AC. As the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne she could have younger, richer, more powerful man. Daemon was a prince, a dragonrider, conqueror of the stepstones, and in a marriage alliance with the very wealthy Velaryons. He's one of the most high-status men in the kingdom, even if he had many enemies in King's Landing. Why do you think Corlys and Rhaenys permitted Laena to marry him? And if Rhaenyra is into warriors as I think based on Criston/Harwin, then Daemon fits that mold as well. Quote Widows and widowers are not easily pressed into marriages (and neither are people like Laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra, as it happens), especially not such who have already done their dynastic duties and produced children. If she'd gotten pregnant she may have wanted that. Yes, moon tea existed, but Westerosi medicine is hardly as reliable as what we have today, so many noble women did have hasty marriages due to just that. Quote There is no indication that anyone wanted Rhaenyra or Daemon to remarry On the contrary, I think expected opposition is another reason why they did it so quickly. Quote We can't pretend to know what really went on there. And we are not supposed to pretend we know. If George wanted us to know he would have given us better clues. He creates ambiguity and leaves it to readers to decide what we think is likely. Quote Mushroom's nonsense is just the 'Rhaenyra remained a maiden' story (How could he possibly know that, anyway? He can't!). In his story he played "no small part" in revealing it, and when such an accusation takes place a girl is often checked to see if her maidenhead is intact. That Daemon refrained from at least that explains why his punishment wasn't worse/permanent. Quote And how is that an argument against her trying? It's true that she wasn't renowned for good judgment and would have been a child used to being spoiled, so even if it was a priori unlikely she could try, like Saera suggesting a polyandrous marriage for herself. Daemon was older, and while a bold rogue I think he'd have a better idea of Visery's unwillingness to grant him a request already denied without the seduction of the princess. Quote Sure, but that serves as a meta-hint that it might be fiction. If it were the only clue it wouldn't be worth much ... but it isn't. I don't see the hint that way. What other examples would you give of that seeming to be the hint? Quote Not to me. Saera's case is based on facts. The stories about Rhaenyra and Rhaena are not. That is why there was never a trial. Saera was discovered by some random City Watchmen, but otherwise the details of her story resemble Mushroom's account. Quote Rhaenyra was a precocious girl, not a stupid one. She wasn't an obvious lackwit, but I don't know that she's ever depicted as being all that thoughtful or perceptive. Quote As the Realm's Delight it is rather odd to assume she wouldn't already know the arts of love by the age of 14. Girls are supposed to be innocent, and as the King's daughter especially a lot of people would have been trying to keep her that way. The courting she experienced was of the socially acceptable variety, and in Mushroom's story it is those methods which Daemon tells here are falling short. Quote It is? But Mushroom's member comes up in many of his stories, meaning it is a rather well-attested part of his Testimony. If you remove the member everything else cumbles down. No, it's not a load-bearing member for most of his stories. Quote they must have taken him along to the brothels for his member to play the part since it is not said that Daemon brought the whores into the Red Keep Yes, that's the bit that resembles Saera with Tom Turnip. Quote If he just overheard talk then he wouldn't be really an accurate source, he would have just overheard stuff, i.e. be witness to people claiming or believing certain things. A number of his statements are like that, though Gyldayn will often point that out things like his absence from King's Landing when he's describing events there. Quote In that sense I'd say if you buy this particular story you have to swallow it whole. I buy that Cole killed Beesbury, but I think Mushroom added the bit about throwing him out the tower because it's more entertaining. Mushroom may also have attempted to ride a dragon and run from the fire without the comical image of having to douse his bottom in a well. And he may indeed have been the only source of joy for Rhaenyra when she was at her lowest without being an "invisible king in motley". So he could have been a witness in a brothel and informed the king while adding those whole days spent naked and many inches to his member. The milder the true story, the more plausible it is that Daemon could be forgiven just after having children. Quote But you are wrong that this story was kept under the rugs. Gyldayn tells us that, as per Mushroom's account, it did come out. It being revealed to people who weren't supposed to know is "coming out". Mushroom doesn't claim everyone knew, his schtick is having gossip that not everyone knows. Quote It is also rather ludicrous that Rhaenyra (and Daemon, after the marriage) would have suffered Mushroom on her island or in her presence in all the years after 111 AC. They don't have to know it was him rather than someone else in the brothel. There's even a person in King's Landing whose job it is to manage spies. Quote The main criteria you have to differentiate between fact and fiction in the madhouse that is the Testimony of Mushroom is to look where his fantasies can fit with reality as depicted by other sources. I agree, which is what I'm trying to do. Quote But stuff like the brothel queens, the Ironrod piece, Beesbury being thrown out the window, etc. just hang in the air. I've mentioned the other two, so I'll say for Ironrod that it seems he really did have four dead wives and twenty-nine children. There could well be a double-meaning in his name. Quote That wouldn't fly because he couldn't tell the kind of story he claims he had a part in without implicating himself. I don't think he told the same story to Viserys that he tells in his Testimonies, both out of self-interest then and his tendency to spice things up later. Tom Turnip wasn't punished for his part with Saera. Quote Also, he makes it clear that while he was a main reason why this story came out, it wasn't the only reason. Mushroom leaks it, some whisperers back him up and then finally Daemon confirms it. Quote And he definitely would have removed Cole from Rhaenyra's side after that - both because he would have felt it improper to keep him there and because Cole, being abhorred by Rhaenyra's advances, would have requested the removal If you think that first attempted seduction happened, which I'm more skeptical of, then Cole's own refusal enhances his reputation as the sort of honorable kingsguard worthy of that position of trust contrary to Alicent's earlier insinuation, and a younger Rhaenyra could be more easily dismissed as immature and misled by her uncle. I don't think Cole is the understanding sort though, even of the princess he'd championed for years. My guess is that she may have been flirty but her actions toward Cole weren't that outrageous and his response in turn was more cold. Quote Her father may not have thrown her to the dogs, but he would have never allowed such a slut to succeed to the Iron Throne. If there's a confirmation that she still has her maidenhead, then he can tell himself that it's not so bad, since he doesn't want to believe the story at all. Quote And perhaps, perhaps Mushroom would have invented that little detail to protect Rhaenyra's honor. It's an odd "perhaps", since he still has her lose her maidenhead to Harwin prior to marriage. Quote But I rather believed he no longer didn't give a damn about her and her entire inbred family and just invented stuff to entertain whatever morons were interested in what he had to say. Gyldayn repeatedly contrasts the conflicting accounts of Mushroom and Eustace by noting that one loved the queen and the other did not, and I think that Mushroom both had affection for the one who had appreciated him the most and a penchant for saying things about her afterward that she wouldn't like. Quote Eustace is not presented as a guy who invented salacious stories. I think that on the contrary his bent is toward minimizing such stories and giving accounts other septons would approve of repeating without as much corrosive cynicism, and adding more references to prayer and the Seven. He accepts the claim that Laenor fathered the Hull boys, though I think that definitely isn't true, perhaps because they'd been officially legitimized and inherited High Tide by that time. Quote Mushroom's accounts are not secret addendums to an official history - they paint their very own picture of reality. It's not written as an official history but instead his own Testimonies, hence the title, with the hook that he has all sorts of gossip that others don't. It's actually described as consisting of little more than said gossip. He's usually contrasted with Eustace rather than Munkun because Munkun is writing the official history without the gossip that Eustace at least acknowledges, although he does engage in some less certain speculation over motivations. An exception of course when Mushroom claims that Orwyle stammered and peed himself, which is not public knowledge and also a place where we expect Orwyle's source to talk himself up. There isn't the same motivation regarding their disagreement over Arryk's target, but that's also not public knowledge, while the fight between the twins and Rhaenyra's actions on Dragonstone are things only Mushroom himself witnessed. Quote In that sense, it simply doesn't do to assume that when Mushroom claims something that this thing wasn't public knowledge in his scenario - especially not when it was effectively an event that must have been public knowledge. And that goes for things like the brothel queens and also the story of 111 AC. In the case of the brothel queens Gyldayn says it's not just Mushroom who has told that story, and suggests that Aegon II may have started it to justify his own actions and Mushroom repeated the common gossip around winesinks. He doesn't attempt any "If it had been true everyone would know" argument against Mushroom, just that the late date at wish Mushroom wrote meant that he could react to what other people had said. Which is sort of the opposite of your argument that Mushroom didn't know official histories said something otherwise. Quote It is perfectly consistent with a Rhaenyra who never actually cared much about Cole as a lover much less a potential husband. It is consistent with that, and as I've said the other indications that Rhaenyra was interested incline me toward the opposite account. Quote The text goes against you there - sure he, was of very low birth, but he was dashing, handsome, and very skilled. Traits more valued in a lover than a husband. Quote He is confirmed to have been a favorite of the ladies of the court. That quote comes after it's noted that he had replaced Ryam Redwyne in the Kingsguard, and was thus ineligible to marry, but I should concede that his appointment is just said to take place within that year and we're not sure precisely when it occurred in relation to being a favorite of those ladies. Quote If a guy like Jorah Mormont can marry a Hightower of Oldtown Jorah was a lord in his own right, with a Valyrian sword, and his wife wasn't an heir and her own father approved. And it did turn out to be a dysfunctional marriage, both because he didn't have the wealth she was used to and Bear Island wasn't her kind of place. I don't think it was quite so doomed to failure, or her father wouldn't have approved, which I don't think would have happened if Jorah were the son of a steward. Quote then Criston Cole certainly could also have seduced or even married (if he didn't join the KG) the daughter of a great lord (especially if the lord had a lot of daughters). Seduced, I'll grant you. The children of nobility sometimes marry mere knights if they've got bastards, so I suppose that would have been his best hope, although the greater the nobility the less likely. Quote Love makes people delusional. That is a rather common theme in this series. Cole seems to have lived in the same kind of fantasy world Littlefinger, Robert, perhaps Rhaegar, Sansa, Jorah, Jaime/Cersei, etc. seem to be living on occasion. Criston was in his thirties, and didn't seem to have a romantic streak outside that one Eustace passage. Jorah was a Westerosi exiled knight making a living with his sword and making overtures to a Targaryen princess, but she was also already an exile and thus had less to lose by marrying him. Jorah was also the double agent who foiled the wineseller's assassination attempt on Daenerys, and his plan to keep heading east from Qarth was intended to evade any such enemies even though Robert Baratheon was dead and Westeros was in a state of civil war. He may actually have been exaggerating the threat, expecting that Dany wouldn't know better and would have to rely on him given her dire circumstances. He actually puts in the work to make Dany doubt anyone but him rather than assuming he can win her just because he's the romantic hero of his own story. Quote And how does this affect Cole's thinking when you can neither substantiate your own beliefs nor prove that Cole the fictional character would have shared them? Do you disagree about what Viserys would do in that situation? Or do you think Criston would be too naive/romantic to think so? Quote That is not that bad a point - but surely Cole could have destroyed Rhaenyra for good by revealing what she tried to do with him not once but twice? As you note, neither of them would have proof about what happened in a private meeting. But one would be accused of conspiring to throw away a sacred oath he'd already given, while Rhaenyra was not yet married and merely proposing fornication. It's definitely disapproved of, but not a crime for her. Viserys was still king and Rhaenyra was his favorite, while Criston was just an upjumped son of a steward who could be replaced even if he had become Lord Commander. Quote And considering Rhaenyra's disinterest in Laenor one could assume she was rather happy about her the tourney turned out if that did indeed prevent her from consummating her marriage (then, at least). She certainly could have taken affront ... but she didn't have to. I don't think she'd give credit for that unexpected consequence of Joffrey's death, and Cole had still fought for Rhaenyra's rival and thrashed her sworn shield enough to incapacitate him. Even Viserys was angry at Criston, which would have made it a good time for Rhaenyra to tell her father what an unfit kingsguard he was and a bad time for Criston to expect the king to side with him. Quote It is still a completely nonsensical thing to say to a knight of the KG - who cannot possibly afford having his affairs becoming public knowledge. She didn't say his forsaking of his oath would be public knowledge, just that Laenor might reject her for not being a maiden. And it would be verifiable that she had indeed lost her maidenhead, something one's husband normally discovers on the wedding night. And if Laenor asked to have the marriage annulled on the grounds that she wasn't a maiden and he refused to consummate, a maester could confirm she wasn't and she could affirm Laenor's story that their marriage wasn't consummated. Informing him before the wedding to break the betrothal or indefinitely delay the wedding would be easier, although she could also just lie in that situation. That latter case would also make it less likely that she would be pressed on who took her maidenhead. Quote Not to mention that there is no reason to assume he would even give a damn about her marrying a man who might not even want to sleep with her, anyway. Doesn't Eustace's story depend on just that? Quote You don't know what Rhaenyra Targaryen did know about Laenor Velaryon prior to her marriage. She may have known him much better than, say, the dead Grand Maester. He was her cousin, after all. I expect she did know him better than Mellos, who was approving of the marriage, but we also know that despite Renly declining the metaphorical fish served on his wedding night (not even denying it to Stannis) he still said he expected to get a child on her within a year without any other candidate to provide one. He wouldn't be the first gay man to become a father but afterward have a mostly sexless marriage with his wife. Quote No, that doesn't make it clear, either. It implies Laenor wanted to replace one favorite hanger-on with another, not that this was a romance. The rival is referred to as a "handsome young squire of six-and-ten", establishing both that he was considered attractive and he had not yet attained enough status to be threatening to a knight. What kind of jealousy would cause a sworn shield to murder his own lord and then cut down multiple people while fleeing? Quote Rich people can and do throw money at people who amuse them without there being (explicit) sexual stuff involved. Mushroom is the one who gives a monetary motive there, with Gyldayn backing him up. I think that Mushroom is right, even if Eustace's claim about Laenor's shifted affections is also true. Quote But she just wants to fuck him to give her future husband a reason to reject him. You again reduce it to that motivation, even though Rhaenyra isn't quoted as saying that. Quote She may have lusted after Cole in the Mushroom scenario, but she never offered him the post Harwin later had as father of her sons in Mushroom's story. If she had gotten pregnant that night, it's just what would have happened. The "post" that Harwin had was her sworn shield, which is exactly what Cole was. We don't get an "offer" from Rhaenyra to Harwin, just an accumulation of evidence that he was the father and Laenor was not. Quote Eustace gives Cole an actual motivation in his story - Mushroom gives Rhaenyra none, he just reuses a plot device from 111 AC. You claim it's not a motivation, but simply wanting to have sex with a kingsguard she loved was enough for Cersei the morning before her wedding to Robert. Quote But that's not an option on the table. No talk about Cole becoming Rhaenyra's continued lover/the father of her children. She did offer him nothing at all. He can't be her continued lover unless he starts out as her lover, which she's trying to achieve in that quote. There's no reason to think she'd have the whole rest of her life mapped out, particularly as she didn't yet know whether Laenor would reject her for not being chaste. And since Cole would presumably remain her sworn shield in this scenario, the opportunity for more trysts would be there and her professed love for him suggests she would be willing. Quote Perhaps not the castration issue, but severe punishment nonetheless. Don't ask, don't tell only works while nobody talks and nobody listens. How would you classify Visery's sending Harwin to Harrenhal and forbidding anyone to repeat the rumors? Quote But there is no other material. I gave you all above. And there is essentially only Mushroom indicating that Rhaenyra had a sexual interest in Cole. No, there were earlier hints not attributed to Mushroom which you have decided to dismiss as not sexual or not on Rhaenyra's part. If you wanted to argue against Mushroom you could have done as Gyldayn did for the brothel queens and claimed that he just picked up on pre-existing gossip and placed himself as an eyewitness. Quote No reason to even entertain such things without any textual evidence providing a basis. Cole's actions at the wedding tourney are the part that's undisputed. In Mushroom's account there's a throughline from Cole rejecting to Rhaenyra to Rhaenyra sleeping with Harwin and choosing him as her champion, and then Cole thrashing the favorites of both spouses. In Eustace's account Joffrey and Harwin would seem to be just two knights as far as Cole is concerned. The green council after Viserys died was a private matter subject to more dispute, but there we don't have to rely on Mushroom to have Cole accusing Rhaenyra of having "wanton ways" and Laenor being a homosexual. Mushroom provides Cole with more knowledge that this was in fact the case, and gives such things as his motivation for turning on Rhaenyra. If Mushroom had already read Munkun's account via Orwyle of that council, then you could claim he made stuff up after the fact to fit it, but Mushroom was supposedly illiterate and you have argued that he wasn't aware of those histories. Quote They don't need any explanation. He hated Rhaenyra and her family and wanted to destroy them. Case closed. Are Harwin and Joffrey her "family"? Or just two knights unlucky enough to receive the favors of the spouses while Cole was mad? Quote A woman as vindictive as Rhaenyra supposedly certainly should have fun destroying Cole after that What could she do to destroy him? In Mushroom's version he didn't sneak into her bedchamber at night, so it would be harder for her to get someone to claim they saw him do that, and he could well have an alibi for where he was at the time while she would open herself up to allegations about having been with Harwin that night. Quote Not to mentiont hat it could (and likely was) great fun for princes and princesses to torture and humiliate KG they did not like Aerys was insane enough to put his life in the hands of a single kingsguard he'd given reason to hate him, normal people don't keep as their sworn shield somebody they hate and want to torment. Quote It hasn't? There is only evidence for one affair. The three Velaryon/Strong boys are all evidence, just as Cersei's children compared to Robert's natural ones were. If you are like Eustace and Munkun and accept the claim that the Hull boys were Laenor's bastards, that makes it all the more striking that none of the children he supposedly had with Rhaenyra resemble them. Marilda was a commoner, so if anything we should expect a more common appearance to her offspring than Rhaenyra's. You have indicated that you agree with Gyldayn that Corlys was more likely the father, and I think that account is most compatible with one in which Laenor had no biological children but Eustace is just unwilling to say so. Quote And that was her uncle, which doesn't really count for a Targaryen. If it "doesn't count", then why was he exiled? Quote Alicent's comment indicates Rhaenyra possibly falling prey to Cole's advances, not the other way around. It does not say that there actually were any advances, just that Alicent warned about Rhaenyra falling prey to them. People could observe the two of them together, and as far as we can tell Criston lived up the ideal of the kingsguard at that point in time, leading to him being named Lord Commander. The text we have speaks of Rhaenyra being "smitten" and having "eyes only" for Criston, without any indication of Criston making goo-goo eyes at her. Quote I can see Rhaenyra seeing Cole as a nice pet. A washed and dressed little peasant who thinks he can enter the circles of the blood of the dragon. But I cannot see her ever wanting to fuck somebody like him, even if she was physically attracted to him. Was her objection to marrying Laenor that he was too lowborn? Do we hear of her rejecting her earlier suitors, such as Harwin, because they weren't Targaryen? If adjacency to the throne was her criteria then former candidate Laenor would have been quite high, and when she married Daemon she had a half-brother ahead of him in succession. Instead her criteria seems more based on manliness. Laenor was very highborn, but didn't seem above relationships with household knights. I see it as a parallel between the two of them. Quote She really looks down on people with his background, you can see that with her rant about Nettles, for instance. Nettles was even lower than Ser Cole and ugly to boot. Rhaenyra is resorting to "spells" to explain Daemon sleeping with her after being told by Mysaria... another lowborn lover of Daemon's ("Even our normally reticent Septon Eustace" acknowledges that). It's only Eustace we have as a source for that quote, while we know Daemon was notorious in Flea Bottom and on the Street of Silk rather than some priss who wouldn't sully himself with the dregs of society. Quote If somebody else but Mushroom would indicate an actual interest on her part I'd consider it. No, when we have quotes about her being "smitten" and having "eyes only" for Criston you dismiss it. Quote A completely different kind of teenager, one much more precocious than Sansa - and even Sansa is very aware of social boundaries and improper behavior. I think Rhaenyra paid less heed to such boundaries. Husbands and wives are supposed to live together, but she and Laenor seemed content to make their marriage look fake even as she bore his supposed heirs. She had a quickie marriage to Daemon knowing her father would object, and even you believe she gave her maidenhead to him and tried to marry him before his first wife died. When she seized King's Landing she quickly turned the populace against her. I think she just thought herself above the opinions of other people. Quote She is never going to allow a creature like Sandor to touch her unless she is in a situation where she has no other choice He was touching her even early in the first book before she became a captive. And he's hideously burned, refuses knighthood and constantly denounces chivalry. Quote We do know that Alicent and Rhaenyra originally were friends. The real rivalry took up steam in 111 AC with the tourney. The parties developed shortly before that, so her comment taking place before the comment should be seen within in this milder rivalry context and not with hindsight. No, right after her comment we read "The amity between Her Grace and her stepdaughter had proved short-lived, for both Rhaenyra and Alicent aspired to be the first lady of the realm" as the context. Alicent had already given birth to two sons by that point, leading to pressure from the Highgarden camp to change the succession. Otto was dismissed two years prior to that tourney, and the "queen's party" was said to "still exist", indicating that it was already there beforehand. Quote If you want to interpret it badly then you can interpret it as Alicent trying to separate Cole and Rhaenyra so she lose a devoted follower and protector. I do think that was the case, but in both cases Alicent was able to find a vulnerable spot because people could see Rhaenyra was smitten with Cole and none of Rhaenyra's first three sons looked like Laenor. Quote Sure, Cole also supposedly had a thing for Alys Rivers, no? Only Mushroom, whom you normally dismiss, says anything to that effect. Even he attributes it to "love potions and philtres" rather than Criston being lusty*. As it happens, I do think she was a magic user and she used those on Aemond, but I don't think we need an explanation for someone as disagreeable as Aemond not getting along with even his fellow Greens. It's also in his character to be bold, while Criston comes across as relatively pragmatic, except in Eustace's claim of his romantic overture to Rhaenyra. Might Alys have wanted magical influence over Criston in addition to Aemond? I suppose it's possible though it's less clear why she'd act in a way to make them rivals, but we don't have any interactions between Criston and Alys and instead just Aemond sticking with her. Where Mushroom and Eustace agree, as they do on Aemond and Alys, we have good reason to believe something, and it becomes more speculative otherwise. However, Aemond's reluctance to leave Alys would not explain his insistence on attacking King's Landing rather than linking up with other Green forces or his reluctance to use his powers as regent to order the Hand in line. Munkun's line about Aemond respecting Criston seems odd because Aemond was generally disrespectful and his reluctance to support the Hand led to his death in the Butcher's Ball. I don't think any of the three give a good explanation for Aemond not using his regency to order Criston to support his plan, so instead I chalk that up to Aemond being flippant about strength in numbers and happy to have glory all for himself. And there I am siding with something Eustace says elsewhere because I think it makes for consistent characterization. *On a minor note, we have no public information as to whether Criston was straight, gay, aesexual or whatever, but any Bayesian will tell you to remember general priors rather than focusing too much on a specific case, so I can grant that he was probably capable of feeling attraction for women even if he didn't show it. Quote He betrayed his king and crowned a usurper, the worst thing a KG could possibly do. There is reason why this man isn't exactly considered an exemplatory KG. The worst thing a KG can possibly do is kill their own king. And he was following along with the Hand, who ruled in the King's absence, and the Master of Laws who insisted that sons come before daughters. Even Rhaenyra chose that for the inheritance of Rosby and Stokeworth rather than accepting Daemon's suggestion of leaving it to daughters who could marry Ulf and Hugh. Criston could believe he was upholding the law and that Rhaenyra was the usurper, as Kermit Tully and Stannis Baratheon believed. Most of the kingsguard followed along with him, with all dying for their cause other than Willis Fell, who was following orders to keep the princess safe. It would be impossible for him to keep that high opinion of himself under Eustace's scenario of him eloping with Rhaenyra. And even in Mushroom's story about Alys Rivers, he doesn't indicate that Cole broke his vows. There are dishonorable kingsguard who have broken their vows and sought to escape punishment, but Criston acts like a true believer who went down swinging. Was his belief that Rhaenyra was a usurper the product of him ditching her for the Greens and accepting the view that the Velaryon boys were bastards rather than just Andal succession laws? I would say so. But once he had this view, he would consider it to be traitorous to do elsewise. In a hypothetical were a Great Council was called after the death of the king and the heir that the king himself selected is rejected, is a KG bound to disobey that Great Council and continue championing the previous heir? Quote Daemon-Alicent never took place as per George's final text (although that's something that makes sense to explain the Otto-Daemon issues which are now without good explanation aside from some background detail the author doesn't care about). I mostly agree on that, but I think Otto could easily consider him "a second Maegor the Cruel" considering what characterization we get for Daemon. Many of those details take place later, but we can assume he acted the rogue when younger as well. Quote Mushroom's version of Rhaenyra-Cole makes no sense. That's what we've been arguing about. Quote Joffrey-Laenor's relationship is unclear and Mushroom doesn't go into any detail there, anyway. The man named his third "son" Joffrey after Corlys overruled him for his firstborn. If he's still hung up on Joffrey all those years later, then yes I expect he "wept bitterly" at Lonmouths' bedside as the man died. Mushroom had not been part of Laenor's household prior to the marriage with Rhaenyra, so it's afterward that he can tell us about Laenor mourning Joffrey and later replacing him with Qarl Correy. And it's not just Mushroom who'd been casting aspersions about Laenor's sexual preferences, as Rhaenyra and Mellos had already made reference to it prior to the marriage. Basically, all the evidence points in one direction and nothing suggests otherwise. Quote Even Gyldayn makes no sense there, considering there is no contradiction there, since Rhaenyra could have fucked both Laenor/Qarl and Harwin, depending on her mood or the availability of all of them You think Gyldayn makes no sense, but he's trying to establish a pattern in Rhaenyra's actions on those ocassions when Laenor did visit. I think if the three of them were actually into such threesomes then they would have preferred spending more time together rather than apart. Perhaps they tried early on, the way Margaery suggests to Renly in the show, but decided they preferred just to stick with their own lovers. Quote But the contradiction as such calls the entire narrative into question, since Mushroom, being present and a supposed witness and expert on events should be able to provide us with an internally consistent narrative, rather than just salacious anecdotes Salacious anecdotes is Mushroom's stock in trade. Mushroom gives us an explanation for why none of Laenor's three "legitimate" children looked Velaryian, even compared to the Hull boys, along with helping to provide motivations for the murders of both Laenor and Harwin. Eustace and Munkun have no explanation for why lightning struck the same unexpected spot three times with Laenor's "legitimate" kids but not the two Hull boys. Mushroom is our one witness with Rhaenyra, so I do grant him more credibility there than elsewhere rather deciding to dismiss everything he says. Quote Trying to resolve the murder mysteries is a waste of time. It can be fun if you realize it is pointless You could say that of any instance in which Gyldayn cites conflicting sources. Just throw up your hands and have fun. You certainly can do that, but we're here because we think we can apply some reasoning to guess which theories are more likely. And you did that when saying it was unlikely that Daemon had Laenor killed, even though Gyldayn provided backup for Mushroom's theory there. Quote Aegon III being conceived before the wedding could be the case The swiftness of their marriage and his subsequent birth points in that direction. Eustace and Munkun are naturally going to be more reticent when writing about the king they were then serving. Quote Why don't you start a thread and give us a list what Mushroomalia you buy? That's partly what this is I've discussed a number of examples, and generally agree with the ones I've linked. Another I'll add is whether Viserys was poisoned, which is one of GRRM's earliest examples of Mushroom vs Eustace. Gyldayn dismisses it by noting that Mushroom was on Dragonstone at the time, but Mushroom is still sometimes correct even when he's elsewhere. We know Larys Strong poisoned Aegon II, so it would be in-character for him to do that for the previous king, although his motivations would be more opaque. Rhaenyra was in labor, so it was good timing for the Greens, but the main reason to think otherwise is that the king was so sickly his death was expected soon anyway. You've said that Alicent never loved Viserys, which would make it more likely that she would be complicit in such a thing. I think it comes down to how soon Larys decided on a plan and how important the timeline of Rhaenyra's pregnancy was to that. If you think that Larys arranged for the deaths of both his father and brother, which I find plausible, that would put him on the side of the Greens earlier and possibly afraid of what Rhaenyra would do to him if she discovered he had killed her lover. Quote Even while I don't like Aegon II I'm not sure if I buy Mushroom's account of what he did the night his father died. Mushroom wasn't present, but he and Eustace were in agreement that he was with another woman, so I think that bit is probably right. Mushroom's tendency is to exaggerate a grain of truth for entertainment purposes while Eustace gives a more socially acceptable account, so I am going to doubt his claim about his paramour being so well off and cared for as well as the part of Mushroom's account that would seem to put Aegon's own person at risk. Mushroom elsewhere says that he had two bastards from a whore and a servant in the same year as his legitimate twins (though there's nothing about those bastards being acknowledged), so I'm guessing his lover that night was roughly in that range of social strata. He was also known for drinking, so I'll guess Mushroom was right that he wasn't sober and I REALLY doubt he was averse to preventing his hated half-sister from taking the crown, although Cole's warnings about his own safety may have motivated him to act quickly rather than sleeping off his drunken haze. Quote His discussions of the brothel queens, for instance, is a very fine discussion, as is his discussion of the alleged murder of Helaena Targaryen. What I find interesting about that is he gives reasons to doubt Munkun and Eustace's take on Helaena's death, but his only reason for rejecting Mushroom is that it would require one to accept the brothel queens story. And, as noted, his reason for rejecting the brothel queens story is that it was a widespread rumor which "may be" originated later, possibly when Aegon II wanted a justification, and that Mushroom picked up those rumors after the fact or "misremembered" years later. Gyldayn also gives reasons to believe that the Shepherd's accusation that it was "murder" is a slander, with Mushroom giving the one explanation for how that rumor could have come about. And Larys Clubfoot's subsequent association with Trystane Truefyre and Perkin the Flea makes fits with him conspiring to turn another "king" against Rhaenyra. Part of Gyldayn's argument against it being murder is that Luthor Largent had an alibi, but he's just one man who may have been picked as a suspect due to his high visibility commanding the Gold Cloaks. As for motivations for killing her... if she actually was pregnant people could point to her offspring as another possible claimant for the throne, as would happen in even more baseless cases like Gaemon and Trystane. We know that Cheese threatened her daughter with rape, and Cersei expected mass rape of noblewomen to be the result of King's Landing falling, and Salladhor Saan indicates she specifically was right to fear him. So perhaps the truth is that she was raped when the city fell with Rhaenyra's complicity, and this got exaggerated into the brothel queens story. I find Munkun's explanation the least plausible, while on behalf of Eustace I will at least say that malice doesn't seem out of character for Mysaria. I suppose we could even combine Helaena being pregnant and hearing about Maelor somehow as enough to tip her over the edge while partly fitting two different accounts. Quote In other cases he might be close to the truth without having the whole truth or the really accurate picture, or he might just point in the right direction. Which claims from him do you find least reliable? Quote But whether some magical stuff like 'dragon sexes', 'dragon origins', 'the blood of the dragon of the Valyrian dragonlords' will ever be addressed or revealed in the main series I'd very much question I think the dragon sexes already was addressed in the main series by Aemon, who tied it in with the idea that Daenerys is the Prince Who Was Promised, something that Marwyn agrees with once he hears. We've been following Daenerys for a while, and she definitely seems integrally tied into the supernatural and prophecy. Quote Orwyle/Munkun is not indicated to be biased in favor of either side - Munkun's great work is the best treatise on the Dance as a whole, with there being some minor quibbles about the court intrigue stuff he draws from Orwyle who tried to paint himself and events he was involved in a positive light. Orwyle wrote his confessions while he was imprisoned and awaiting execution, and was indulged and allowed to live while he continued to write. And even before we get Gyldayn's take, Tyrion lets us know Munkun's book is inaccurate. I agree with Tyrion and Mushroom that he was trying to kill Syrax and that Munkun and Eustace are wrong. Mushroom's account fits with what Byron's squire wrote to his daughter, which is more confirmation than we get for most of these conflicting accounts, and Mushroom himself was actually near that particular dragon. Gyldayn places the least credibility on the account that Eustace wrote in a letter years after his history, and I agree with his reasoning. I've noted that I found his explanations of Helaena's death, Byron Swann and Aemond vs Cole to be the least plausible, and in all but the last Gyldayn also casts doubt on him. Those are all separate from Orwyle making himself look better. Quote his role in the death of Joffrey Velaryon (not telling Rhaenyra that he went away), or the claim that he promped Jace to look for dragonseeds I think the former is much more likely than the latter. The Blacks had a lot of dragons but not enough riders, while Corlys already knew about at least two available dragonseeds he wanted legitimized. On 1/3/2020 at 10:48 AM, frenin said: If he didn't want to give them more ammo, he shouldn't remove tongues at all don't you think?? I agree with Tywin and Tyrion about that, but even with Viserys his sending Harwin away is directly tied to quashing the rumors about him and Rhaenyra's sons. Quote Then the more reason to not move him and Harwin also was with her at KL and never talked or implied much. That approach was tried for years, but after Aemond repeated the accusation and lost an eye it no longer seemed as tenable. Mellos' theory, which I've noted I don't believe, both prevents any further association between Rhaenyra and Harwin and prevents Harwin from leaking anything once he's no longer shadowing Rhaenyra all the time. The downside turned out to be that Rhaenyra's later children looked obviously Valyrian, making it ever less likely that her first three were just expressing some of her recessive genes. Quote out of the blue he just forgets them and endangers himself and his house "Out of the blue" implies something sudden, but Harwin is going to be away from Rhaenyra idefinitely. Quote Gossips. They are widespread and they don't know bounds... Except for this one which wasonly limited to the Red Keep and Driftmark. Gyldayn already includes multiple people making the accusation, it wouldn't add anything to say "More people were also saying this". It's said that "Mellos hints at it", but without a direct quote we don't know if that's just another reference to his theory about Viserys assassinating Harwin. And when Eustace "raises the rumors only to dismiss them", we don't know if he's just noting what Alicent, her children, Vaemond and his relatives said or referring to something more widespread. Quote Especially because this rumour is not as widespread as the rest of their kind. We don't know how widespread the rumor was, we just have a non-exhaustive list of people discussing it. Quote Probably because he's suggesting them instead of confirming. Why would he suggest it at all if he only has doubts? Quote Just his doubts and guesses. When does he use the word "doubt"? If anything, Mellos seems overly confident rather than habitually uncertain. Quote no one care much about them beng bastards It is true that it's less of an immediate concern than whether Aegon II or Rhaenyra comes first, which is why the green council doesn't get to that until after they've already been discussing the succession for hours. Cole brings it up after Alicent says Rhaenyra will regard trueborn children as a threat to her sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted January 7, 2020 Share Posted January 7, 2020 On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: We don't have Arryk suggesting himself for the job, he was picked for a stealth mission to retaliate for Jaehaerys because he was an identical twin to Erryk and familiar with Dragonstone and could thus sneak in. And we aren't given any specific motivation for Erryk to kill his brother either, that's just what they did. Viserys wasn't around to enforce any prohibition on Arryk telling his twin what he'd seen of Rhaenyra, so he certainly could have done so when he visited with Orwyle for the parley, but neither budged. Telling isn't the same as seeing. The idea this thing conveys is that Arryk, personally, was disgusted by what he saw Daemon and Rhaenyra did (or otherwise influenced on a conscious or subconscious level) to decide to stick with the Greens when the time came and even go through with a murder plot (neither of which he could have been forced to do). In fact, it seems rather curious that Arryk Cargyll survived the madness of Otto Hightower's preemptive arrests - his twin brother was with Rhaenyra, so it was actually foolish of the Greens to trust Arryk unless they could be sure of his loyalty for some reason (even more so after the defection of Steffon Darklyn). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Nobody refers to it at as a motivation or speculates about their motivations. And they need none, because they do not have a twin brother on the other side. That is no small affair. We also do know that Erryk and Arryk are rather old KG in 129 AC, having been KGs as early as the Maidenpool tourney which celebrated Viserys I's rise to the Iron Throne - meaning those guys are older KG veterans than Cole, and were definitely not suggested or chosen by him, unlike quite a few of the other KG siding with the Greens may have been. Thorne and Fell could have been men who got white cloaks while Cole was Lord Commander. But we don't know people in the story speculate about motivations - we can do that ourselves, especially with clues giving directly to the reader (which this detail about Arryk being the one finding Daemon/Rhaenyra definitely is). Like many other such direct subtle clues in the novels - things readers can pick up because they know all the POV chapters, and realize that some non-POV is lying there, that this implies a connection the POV telling us the thing does not pick up on, etc. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Come on, this is her first sexual experience we know of and they're doing everything short of intercourse. This sort of thing would be called "grooming" of a child nowadays. The actual 'grooming' took place years before, before Cole was Rhaenyra's sworn shield and before she was even the Heir Apparent: Quote Princess Rhaenyra was also enamored of her uncle, for Daemon was ever attentive to her. Whenever he crossed the narrow sea upon his dragon, he brought her some exotic gift on his return. The king had grown soft and plump over the years. Viserys never claimed another dragon after Balerion’s death, nor did he have much taste for the joust, the hunt, or swordplay, whereas Prince Daemon excelled in these spheres, and seemed all that his brother was not: lean and hard, a renowned warrior, dashing, daring, more than a little dangerous. Rhaenyra's first/true love was always her dashing and dangerous uncle, not Criston Cole, and definitely not Harwin Strong (especially in light of the fact that Daemon is the only guy for whom there is actual convincing evidence that Rhaenyra loved him - she even showed that love later during the Dance). The idea that Daemon - who already seems to have tried to prepare his niece for a later marriage back in 105 AC - would have ever wasted time in helping her seduce a KG is, quite frankly, ridiculous. It would not help him with his goal to get closer to the throne to marry a fallen woman the king might have very well disinherited and cut from the succession in the wake of this entire ridiculous seduction affair. But a Targaryen princess loving her Targaryen uncle and wanting to marry him does make infinitely more sense - if we go with the general picture of Prince Daemon as an ambitious man who, at least in the first half of his life, did everything in his power to get closer to the throne. [Whether that's an accurate picture is completely unclear considering the lack of characterization the young Daemon gets - we essentially know nothing about him from him directly about his motivations and desires, which is a great flaw in the entire condensed style of HotD which, in my opinion, is the worst-written part of FaB.] The 111 AC doesn't really qualify as a grooming. Rhaenyra was nearly a woman grown by that time, being 14 years old, two years shy of adult womanhood. She was at an age where other maidens already married, among them many prominent queens of her own house (her own mother had married her father at the age of eleven and started fucking her father at her first flowering two years later). Rhaenyra had also been separated from her uncle since 105 AC, i.e. for a time period of six years. She had no direct contact with Daemon for six years, the rather formative years from 8-14 years. She would have made many friends and would have had many a fleeting crush and flirt in those years, and she would have formed meaningful friendships with other close confidants. The idea that Daemon suddenly became her expert in the seduction department after reconnecting with her just for a couple of months just isn't convincing. Her being very much taken by him as a potential lover and husband - sure. Also, Rhaenyra is called precocious a number of times. Her being fourteen means she is nearly an adult - she wouldn't need Daemon or Mushroom to be introduced into sexual stuff - she could get that all by herself, by means of older, married maidens-in-waiting and other court ladies, and by going out in the city all by herself (like Rhaena and Saera and Viserra and Lady Baela later did). This being a grooming of sorts also makes no sense. If you were helping me to seduce another person I'd not come back over a decade later to marry you. You would be my best buddy, perhaps, the guy I come to complain about my lover, but definitely not the guy I'd want to fuck or marry. Rhaenyra would be a rather weird and inconsistent person for the Mushroom story there to make sense - as would be Daemon, Cole, Mushroom, King Viserys I - basically all the people involved. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Daemon was a prince, a dragonrider, conqueror of the stepstones, and in a marriage alliance with the very wealthy Velaryons. He's one of the most high-status men in the kingdom, even if he had many enemies in King's Landing. Why do you think Corlys and Rhaenys permitted Laena to marry him? And if Rhaenyra is into warriors as I think based on Criston/Harwin, then Daemon fits that mold as well. Corlys and Rhaenys allowed Laena to marry Daemon because he asked for her hand and helped them get rid of the guy they no longer did want her to marry. Not to mention that Daemon and Corlys had been allies in the Stepstones war and likely both saw advantage in closer bonds for dynastic reasons - Laenor had been pushed aside once, with Daemon's and Rhaenyra's help Corlys and Rhaenys could ensure that this would not happen again. For Rhaenyra Daemon was no longer a great husband for political reasons - he brought a dragon, sure, but she was the Princess of Dragonstone and had dragons aplenty. Daemon was neither a lord in his own right nor an heir who would one day become a lord - if Rhaenyra had married another heir/lord (as she did in Laenor) their children would one day become great lords themselves. This is a rather important consideration when you consider a marriage. Rhaenyra did marry Daemon because she had been in love with him since she was a young girl. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: If she'd gotten pregnant she may have wanted that. Yes, moon tea existed, but Westerosi medicine is hardly as reliable as what we have today, so many noble women did have hasty marriages due to just that. George confirmed moon tea is a very effective abortifacient and birth control potion. If Rhaenyra did not want to get pregnant by Daemon she wouldn't have. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: On the contrary, I think expected opposition is another reason why they did it so quickly. Opposition to uncle and niece marrying at all - sure. That's actually stated and can be drawn from Viserys I's stance on their desire to marry earlier (and from Viserys I's opposition to the Laena marriage). But there is no indication that anyone had any plans to find another husband for either Rhaenyra or Daemon - and at the ages they had at the time this would have been something that couldn't have been done without their permission, anyway. Rhaenyra was the Heir Apparent and the Princess of Dragonstone in her own right. Nobody could force her to do anything anymore. And nobody was able to force Daemon to do anything, either - aside from, perhaps, his father or grandfather back when they arranged the Royce match for him (about which we know literally nothing). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: In his story he played "no small part" in revealing it, and when such an accusation takes place a girl is often checked to see if her maidenhead is intact. That Daemon refrained from at least that explains why his punishment wasn't worse/permanent. Princess Rhaenyra's hymen was never investigated as far as we know, and having an intact hymen doesn't mean you didn't have vaginal intercourse unless George's ASoIaF women were refitted to fit the mad concepts of patriarchal bigots believing inspecting a woman after a first fuck is going to reveal whether that fuck took place or not. No woman is inspected prior to her marriage, not even Margaery Tyrell when she claims to be a maiden when she marries Joffrey (she is only investigated by the Faith after her arrest), so the very idea that a royal princess of Rhaenyra's rank would ever have to deal with shit like that is preposterous. Vice versa, if the Eustace version is correct then an investigation there (which likely also didn't take place) would also not necessarily have revealed a broken hymen - the reason why Eustace believes Rhaenyra and Daemon fucked is that they were caught abed together and because they confessed to have done this when questioned, not because of any physical investigation. But nobody can know whether they actually had sex - just as Rhaenyra and Harwin lying abed together (if Mushroom told the truth) doesn't mean they actually had vaginal intercourse. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It's true that she wasn't renowned for good judgment and would have been a child used to being spoiled, so even if it was a priori unlikely she could try, like Saera suggesting a polyandrous marriage for herself. Daemon was older, and while a bold rogue I think he'd have a better idea of Visery's unwillingness to grant him a request already denied without the seduction of the princess. The Eustace story has Rhaenyra asking her father for permission to marry Daemon - which fits much better since Rhaenyra was much more likely to convince her father of this than Daemon himself. The idea that Daemon would actually try to publicly destroy Rhaenyra's honor and reputation to then be able to marry her makes no sense from a power play perspective - because it might cause him to end up with soiled goods at the very end of the line of succession. That is just a strange approach. And what good would Rhaenyra the Heir Apparent be as Daemon's wife if she was still in love with Criston Cole? Wouldn't Rhaenyra fight this marriage to the death and refuse to marry Daemon in the Mushroom scenario if she actually only wanted Cole? Especially once she learned that her uncle had planned to force her to marry him from the start with this ridiculous setup? On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't see the hint that way. What other examples would you give of that seeming to be the hint? When George rips off fiction to include in his fiction that's always a hint. If he had come up with an outrageous sex story that wasn't a direct ripoff it wouldn't be such a meta-hint. But again, this isn't the only reason why I dismiss the story. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Saera was discovered by some random City Watchmen, but otherwise the details of her story resemble Mushroom's account. No, Saera's exploits came out when the queen questioned her female companions. The Tom Turnip story was the reason why she questioned them, sure, but Mushroom's story doesn't involve a prank gone bad. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: She wasn't an obvious lackwit, but I don't know that she's ever depicted as being all that thoughtful or perceptive. Rhaenyra is described as a precocious child multiple times. That in and of itself sort of implies she didn't need an old uncle to help her have sex/seduce somebody at the age of 14 - which, if you are precocious in this world, likely mean you already had multiple crushes and minor affairs which may or may not have involved sexual stuff. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Girls are supposed to be innocent, and as the King's daughter especially a lot of people would have been trying to keep her that way. The courting she experienced was of the socially acceptable variety, and in Mushroom's story it is those methods which Daemon tells here are falling short. She was pampered and spoiled, and if Saera can do what she did under the very nose of patriarchal Jaehaerys then Rhaenyra certainly could do the same or more extreme things right under the nose of her amiable father. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: So he could have been a witness in a brothel and informed the king while adding those whole days spent naked and many inches to his member. The milder the true story, the more plausible it is that Daemon could be forgiven just after having children. But that's not what he says - Mushroom claims the story came out in no small part to himself, not that somebody (or he himself) clandestinely informed the king and only the king. It sounds like people (Mushroom included) started to talk and once the rumors about the slutty brothel princess and her exploits with her pander uncle started to get too loud the king himself investigated this affair. Unlike with the Eustace version - where King Viserys I commands all people involved to shut up and never repeat what they witnessed/did - no such commands are mentioned in the Mushroom version. This in and of itself means this story is not portrayed as the same kind of secret affair as Eustace's version. You cannot pretend the Mushroom was as much a clandestine affair as the Eustace version when the text simply does not say or indicate that. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It being revealed to people who weren't supposed to know is "coming out". Mushroom doesn't claim everyone knew, his schtick is having gossip that not everyone knows. But this kind of thing would have been known by a lot of people. It would have been as large or larger than the Saera affair - which also was well-known in principle (although the details of the investigation were only witnessed and put to paper by Barth and the Grand Maester who were present for those). Saera had companions and they had friends and family and all those people would have known many details of the case, and figured out the stuff that was not publicly revealed. The idea that the Realm's Delight can be taken disguised as a page to the exclusive brothels of KL in the company of the Prince of the City without being recognized by many a patron of those very same brothels is, quite frankly, completely ridiculous. Rhaenyra wasn't ten years old at the time, and would have been the second most prominent member of House Targaryen in KL. Being in Daemon's company would have meant that all eyes would have been on her, too, and all those whores and panders who were indulging Daemon in this game of his would have had great fun talking about it once they had left. This is simply not the kind of thing that can be a 'secret event taking place behind closed doors' - it would have been a public event and once it came out it would have come out for all the world to see. And all the world would have believed Rhaenyra Targaryen was a slut pleasuring hundreds of men in hundreds of ways in those brothels. Nobody would have gone with Mushroom's silly claim that she went to brothels to learn how to seduce a single man. Just as nobody would have believed Rhaenyra and Daemon would have just done 'kissing lessons' back on those rocks in Blackwater Bay. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: They don't have to know it was him rather than someone else in the brothel. There's even a person in King's Landing whose job it is to manage spies. We don't know whether there was a Master of Whisperers in 111 AC. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I've mentioned the other two, so I'll say for Ironrod that it seems he really did have four dead wives and twenty-nine children. There could well be a double-meaning in his name. While we don't have independent confirmation that the man had four dead wives and twenty-nine children we don't know. Jasper Wylde is not important enough a character that Gyldayn talks about his wives and children - he just gives us Mushroom's claim about the meaning of his name. This could very well mean that Gyldayn has no clue how many wives and children the man had (although there may have been ways to find out if one bothered to investigate things with the Wyldes). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't think he told the same story to Viserys that he tells in his Testimonies, both out of self-interest then and his tendency to spice things up later. Tom Turnip wasn't punished for his part with Saera. Tom Turnip didn't have a royal princess suck his cock - which is what Rhaenyra likely did in Mushroom's story with his member when she was not sucking Daemon's. In the brothels she also may have witnessed Mushroom fucking other women, of course, but the story is that Rhaenyra herself learned how to give a man sexual pleasure - and that's what Mushroom was for. The very idea that a king and father in this world would suffer it that a lackwit fool was involved with his daughter (even remotely) in this capacity would have very dire consequences for the guy. The reason why Patches is still alive right now is because the claims about him and Selyse are utter nonsense and Stannis knows that ... but if he had reason to believe even a fraction of them were true the poor fellow would die a most horrible death. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Mushroom leaks it, some whisperers back him up and then finally Daemon confirms it. That is an ad hoc explanation how this thing may have made sense. It is not what Mushroom says. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: If you think that first attempted seduction happened, which I'm more skeptical of, then Cole's own refusal enhances his reputation as the sort of honorable kingsguard worthy of that position of trust contrary to Alicent's earlier insinuation, and a younger Rhaenyra could be more easily dismissed as immature and misled by her uncle. I don't think Cole is the understanding sort though, even of the princess he'd championed for years. My guess is that she may have been flirty but her actions toward Cole weren't that outrageous and his response in turn was more cold. That is you trying to change the story as given by Mushroom. He has Rhaenyra act essentially identical in 111 AC and 113 AC, just as Cole behaves essentially in the same way. There is little difference between a 14-year-old slut and a 16-year-old slut in this world, so no reason to believe Cole would treat Rhaenyra differently in 111 AC than in 113 AC. And no reason to believe he even knew about Rhaenyra's sex lesson and Daemon when he was approached by her - because she most definitely wouldn't have told him about that. The very reason why this entire episode is nonsense is that Mushroom actually tells the same story twice. He doesn't even bother to create a convincing narrative or plausible characters. That's the main clue that the entire Cole-Rhaenyra-Daemon story as given by Mushroom is nonsense. If any author actually pulled shit like that in a novel or a movie - have to characters have essentially the same scene with the same dialogue and outcome without addressing the déjà vu aspect of the entire thing - we would condemn the whole as very bad writing and would be justified to do so. George would *never* include such a blatant repetition of a scene in ASoIaF - which allows us to conclude that this is a very strong hint the author gives us to mark the Mushroom story as the blatant lie of a guy who likes to invent shit. Especially in light of the fact that there is a better, much more plausible variation in Eustace's account. The only reason you seem to like the Mushroom variation is that you, for some reason, seem to like the variation of Cole Mushroom paints - which I don't think fits well with anything Cole later does. Such a Cole would have perhaps become a cynical pragmatist not opposing the rise of the Green regime but he wouldn't have become Aegon II's most prominent partisan outside the Hightower family. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: If there's a confirmation that she still has her maidenhead, then he can tell himself that it's not so bad, since he doesn't want to believe the story at all. That's another ad hoc - no talk about there being such an investigation. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It's an odd "perhaps", since he still has her lose her maidenhead to Harwin prior to marriage. This is why I used two 'perhaps' in my sentence. Mushroom's alleged personal likes do not stop him from throwing dirt at people. If he truly liked Rhaenyra it doesn't show in the stories he tells about her. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Gyldayn repeatedly contrasts the conflicting accounts of Mushroom and Eustace by noting that one loved the queen and the other did not, and I think that Mushroom both had affection for the one who had appreciated him the most and a penchant for saying things about her afterward that she wouldn't like. He only does that when Rhaenyra's qualities as a ruler are concerned, not in the sexual department. There neither Eustace or Mushroom do care (much) about alleged or assumed personal preferences (we only know that Eustace didn't like Rhaenyra much and Mushroom apparently liked her more, but we have no idea whether Mushroom/Eustace liked/disliked Aegon II or any of the other notables of the Blacks and Greens - although we do know that Mushroom definitely didn't like Aegon III). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I think that on the contrary his bent is toward minimizing such stories and giving accounts other septons would approve of repeating without as much corrosive cynicism, and adding more references to prayer and the Seven. He accepts the claim that Laenor fathered the Hull boys, though I think that definitely isn't true, perhaps because they'd been officially legitimized and inherited High Tide by that time. Actually, Eustace is writing a history there, not some kind of devotinal literature. Gyldayn is rather sad when he reaches the point of Eustace's dismissal from court, because his successor is neither interested in history nor in court gossip, meaning he sucks as a source (a similar thing can be seen in the difference of Benifer and Elysar - the former seems to have recorded pretty much everything he witnessed/heard about while the latter was far less diligent, in part explaining why Gyldayn's account on the early period of Jaehaerys I's is so detailed and the later years are not covered in that much detail). Eustace does have his biases, but he doesn't write his history for a clerical or particularly pious audience - if he were doing that there would be no salacious rumor in there at all. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It's not written as an official history but instead his own Testimonies, hence the title, with the hook that he has all sorts of gossip that others don't. It's actually described as consisting of little more than said gossip. He's usually contrasted with Eustace rather than Munkun because Munkun is writing the official history without the gossip that Eustace at least acknowledges, although he does engage in some less certain speculation over motivations. An exception of course when Mushroom claims that Orwyle stammered and peed himself, which is not public knowledge and also a place where we expect Orwyle's source to talk himself up. There isn't the same motivation regarding their disagreement over Arryk's target, but that's also not public knowledge, while the fight between the twins and Rhaenyra's actions on Dragonstone are things only Mushroom himself witnessed. Munkun's great work is, according to Ran, inspired by Jean Froissart's chronicle on the first half of the Hundred Years War - meaning it is an outstanding and thorough historical work, focusing on many accounts of eye witnesses of various events. It is not an official history but rather the work of a scholar who tried to a proper historian. It is not part of the official Grand Maester records or their private contemporary accounts Gyldayn draw much from for the reign of Jaehaerys I and earlier. Munkun's work would, if we ever got around reading it, give us a view of the Dance of the Dragons from various secondary and tertiary (and possibly even smallfolk) participants and eye witnesses rather than the narrow view of the royal family (we know that one of the interviewees Munkun talked with was Benjicot Blackwood). We would learn a lot about the battles, the motivations of many people declaring for this or that party, the suffering of the people on Driftmark or Tumbleton, etc. Mushroom is contrasted with Eustace when both sources touch upon the same subject - not because they compliment each other. They are just the two sources that try to answer serious historians and honest people do not try to answer because there is nothing of substance to report. I'm not sure Mushroom is just a series of salacious anecdotes - he covers a huge chunk of the reign of Viserys I as well as the Dance and the Regency era, and we don't get the impression his narrative jumps around all the time or merely focuses on a couple of isolated events - in fact, have no indication how big a work the Testimony is or on what Mushroom focuses when he doesn't talk about the events Gyldayn references he mentioned. It could be that there is something more substantial there, on occasion, just as he could just as well focus on the exploits of some sexy servant girl or something of that sort. And while we can assume that some of the events Eustace/Mushroom supposedly witnessed may be pretty close to 'the truth' we should keep in mind that both Eustace and Mushroom wrote/dictated their texts years or decades later, meaning that even if their particular bias did not influence what they wrote it was definitely shape by the imprecision of human memory. In fact, we can basically dismiss all the dialogue we get in FaB as invented. Some dialogue might be adequately convey the faulty memories an eye witness had of the conversation (or might summarize what the source was told by people claiming to be eye witnesses) but it is ridiculous to imagine that anyone not writing down accounts in detail at once could accurately write down accounts of entire conversation years or decades later (I imagine that the Grand Maesters/maesters attending various council sessions did write down some summaries of the deliberations - a retrospective protocol, so to speak, but that's just a baseless assumption of mine for us to be able to not dismiss essentially all details given in FaB as historical fiction. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: In the case of the brothel queens Gyldayn says it's not just Mushroom who has told that story, and suggests that Aegon II may have started it to justify his own actions and Mushroom repeated the common gossip around winesinks. He doesn't attempt any "If it had been true everyone would know" argument against Mushroom, just that the late date at wish Mushroom wrote meant that he could react to what other people had said. Which is sort of the opposite of your argument that Mushroom didn't know official histories said something otherwise. My take on things like that would be that if something like the brothel queens did happen it would be official history - just like something like the Cole-Rhaenyra-Daemon thing as per Mushroom would have been part of the official record. Such things wouldn't be just rumors - they would be part of the collective memory of the Kingslanders and the Realm at large. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It is consistent with that, and as I've said the other indications that Rhaenyra was interested incline me toward the opposite account. Rhaenyra actually lusting after Cole is something we only get in Mushroom. Her hanging out with him - sure. But does Myrcella being often with Arys Oakheart, her sworn shield, mean that she has to lust after him? No. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Traits more valued in a lover than a husband. Rhaenyra's public condemnation of bastards indicates she may not have been that interested in fucking men she could not marry. Especially not at the age of fourteen. If Harwin was her lover later (something for which we don't have any real evidence) then this might have been a necessity born from the fact that Laenor Velaryon refused to father any children on her. In fact, this could have been part of the entire marriage deal - because it did obviously cause no scandal/conflict that Laenor did not live with his wife at court or later on Dragonstone. If the Velaryons had cared about Laenor being a father to his sons or be publicly seen as Rhaenyra's loving consort they would have thrown him out of High Tide and would have forced him to live with his wife (which they could have done rather easily considering they controlled his access to Velaryon money). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: That quote comes after it's noted that he had replaced Ryam Redwyne in the Kingsguard, and was thus ineligible to marry, but I should concede that his appointment is just said to take place within that year and we're not sure precisely when it occurred in relation to being a favorite of those ladies. He came to the attention of court before he was made a KG, namely at the Maidenpool tourney celebrating Viserys I's rise to the throne. A knight being recognized by the royal court has made a very crucial career step, no matter his humble background - just as any knight joining the KG automatically becomes one of the most prominent knights in the Realm, never mind his humble background. Access to the king and the royal family means great power and prestige. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Jorah was a lord in his own right, with a Valyrian sword, and his wife wasn't an heir and her own father approved. And it did turn out to be a dysfunctional marriage, both because he didn't have the wealth she was used to and Bear Island wasn't her kind of place. I don't think it was quite so doomed to failure, or her father wouldn't have approved, which I don't think would have happened if Jorah were the son of a steward. Oh, I think it was quite clear that this was a failure from the start since a Lord of Bear Island can never hope to fulfill the monetary needs of a Hightower of Oldtown. They certainly could have gotten along better, but Lynesse would have never been happy at Bear Island. The son of a steward getting the equivalent of a Kingsguard position in lands and titles likely would have done this for Cole - being Kingsguard is the greatest honor a knight can gain for himself, which means we can reasonably say that such an equivalent would becoming a very great landed knight or a mid-tier lord. No great lord would marry his only daughter to such a man, of course, but a lord having too many daughters cannot be picky in every case (just look who Jaehaerys I was considering for Daella), and Leyton Hightower clearly wanted to rid himself of Lynesse - else he would have never agreed to marry her to Jorah. She may not have been aware what a dismal place Bear Island was - but Leyton Hightower most definitely did. A wealthy steward from the Reach might actually control more assets than a Mormont of Bear Island. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Seduced, I'll grant you. The children of nobility sometimes marry mere knights if they've got bastards, so I suppose that would have been his best hope, although the greater the nobility the less likely. Many cases in FaB chose that a lot of strange marriages do happen. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Criston was in his thirties, and didn't seem to have a romantic streak outside that one Eustace passage. Jorah was a Westerosi exiled knight making a living with his sword and making overtures to a Targaryen princess, but she was also already an exile and thus had less to lose by marrying him. Jorah was also the double agent who foiled the wineseller's assassination attempt on Daenerys, and his plan to keep heading east from Qarth was intended to evade any such enemies even though Robert Baratheon was dead and Westeros was in a state of civil war. He may actually have been exaggerating the threat, expecting that Dany wouldn't know better and would have to rely on him given her dire circumstances. He actually puts in the work to make Dany doubt anyone but him rather than assuming he can win her just because he's the romantic hero of his own story. I meant the Lynesse-Jorah story, not the Dany stuff. We do have evidence that Cole had a thing for Rhaenyra and was quite a passionate character in his wrath and hatred later on. He couldn't let this thing go, whatever it was. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Do you disagree about what Viserys would do in that situation? Or do you think Criston would be too naive/romantic to think so? At that point our mode of discussion breaks down. I no longer recall what you are referencing there ;-). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: As you note, neither of them would have proof about what happened in a private meeting. But one would be accused of conspiring to throw away a sacred oath he'd already given, while Rhaenyra was not yet married and merely proposing fornication. It's definitely disapproved of, but not a crime for her. Viserys was still king and Rhaenyra was his favorite, while Criston was just an upjumped son of a steward who could be replaced even if he had become Lord Commander. Cole wanted Rhaenyra to run away with him as per Eustace - he knew he could not fuck her at court. Rhaenyra offering him to fuck her and indicating she might reveal that/or allow her fornication become public knowledge could and likely would destroy Cole (if Rhaenyra was thought to be a slut Cole would be the first suspect of having fucked the princess - Queen Alicent would make sure of that, as she already hinted at in her earlier warnings). Fornication is no positive trait in a woman, and could lead to the birth of a bastard which would also cause Rhaenyra to (possibly or likely) lose her status as Heir Apparent. The idea that she would have risked that both in 111 AC or 113 AC with a man like Cole is just ludicrous - especially since in 113 AC she only agreed to marry Laenor because her father threatened to change the succession. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I don't think she'd give credit for that unexpected consequence of Joffrey's death, and Cole had still fought for Rhaenyra's rival and thrashed her sworn shield enough to incapacitate him. Even Viserys was angry at Criston, which would have made it a good time for Rhaenyra to tell her father what an unfit kingsguard he was and a bad time for Criston to expect the king to side with him. Well, in any scenario it is odd that Rhaenyra didn't destroy Cole. She could have done that easily enough. The best explanation is that she didn't want to do that - whereas it is rather odd that Cole didn't destroy her. As per Mushroom this guy let her get away twice with ridiculous and outrageous attempts at seduction. Do you know what I'd have done in his position and if I had been of Cole 'old septa' inclination. I'd have grabbed the filthy wench by the hair, dragged her naked through the entire Red Keep to throw to the ground in front of the entire throne, demanding that the woman be condemned as the whore she was. I'd be Criston Cole, the greatest knight in the Realm, I'd have to fear nothing in a trial-by-combat (and chances are not that good that a king as weak-willed as Viserys I would have been able to defend his daughter in a scenario like this. Even if I had been unwilling/too cowardly to pull of something like that, I could have used my insight knowledge about Rhaenyra's conduct to destroy her reputation completely long before the Dance of the Dragons dawned. We are talking 111 and 113 AC here - that woman could have become the slut princess in the eyes of the public long before she became the fat princess. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: She didn't say his forsaking of his oath would be public knowledge, just that Laenor might reject her for not being a maiden. And it would be verifiable that she had indeed lost her maidenhead, something one's husband normally discovers on the wedding night. And if Laenor asked to have the marriage annulled on the grounds that she wasn't a maiden and he refused to consummate, a maester could confirm she wasn't and she could affirm Laenor's story that their marriage wasn't consummated. Informing him before the wedding to break the betrothal or indefinitely delay the wedding would be easier, although she could also just lie in that situation. That latter case would also make it less likely that she would be pressed on who took her maidenhead. See above. And shit - where the hell do you get the idea that any Westerosi husband ever discovered in his wedding night that his bride wasn't a maiden. I mean, we have zero evidence for this kind of thing - as I said, there are neither pre-marital inspections of brides, nor during a wedding night. And no bride in the Seven Kingdoms was ever condemned as a whore because she did not 'properly bleed' in her wedding night. Westeros is a patriarchal shithole - but not as shitty as that. Also - where are you taking the idea that a marriage could be annulled on the grounds that a wife wasn't a maiden at the wedding? That never happened even as a possibility! On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Doesn't Eustace's story depend on just that? It depends on Rhaenyra agreeing to marry Laenor, which would prevent him from ever marrying Rhaenyra while Laenor lived - which he wants to do in Eustace's version. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: The rival is referred to as a "handsome young squire of six-and-ten", establishing both that he was considered attractive and he had not yet attained enough status to be threatening to a knight. What kind of jealousy would cause a sworn shield to murder his own lord and then cut down multiple people while fleeing? Nothing wrong with a man wanting to have handsome people around him rather than ugly ones, right? And you can, of course, also be jealous because your friend has other friends he showers with attention and money without the entire thing being a sexual thing. In fact, Laenor Velaryon could merely have publicly flirted with the prospect of being seen as gay when in fact he was as asexual as Vaegon or Aerys I and only did that to discourage women to approach him. There are quite a few ways to explain his behavior, nothing of which indicates sexual intercourse or even romances with those favorites of his - just as the love between Rhaena and Elissa (if it existed) could have been just the love between close friends rather than lovers. And, as it happens, Laenor Velaryon supposedly had two bastard children. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: If she had gotten pregnant that night, it's just what would have happened. The "post" that Harwin had was her sworn shield, which is exactly what Cole was. We don't get an "offer" from Rhaenyra to Harwin, just an accumulation of evidence that he was the father and Laenor was not. If Cole wasn't Rhaenyra's lover while he was her sworn shield what reason is there to believe Harwin was her lover while he was her sworn shield? There is no accumulation of evidence about the fatherhood of Rhaenyra's children - just speculation. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: You claim it's not a motivation, but simply wanting to have sex with a kingsguard she loved was enough for Cersei the morning before her wedding to Robert. You are too smart for that kind of comparison - Cersei was in love with Jaime, her twin brother, not some Kingsguard, since they were six years old (at least). That's an altogether different relationship. If Rhaenyra had had the hots for Cole the way Jaime and Cersei have them for each other, Rhaenyra would have tried to sleep with Cole as a seven-year-old, not - allegedly - as a fourteen- and sixteen-year-old. In fact, the reason why our sources didn't indicate an affair between Cole and Rhaenyra at all sort of indicate that Rhaenyra was not interested - because all things considered: If she had wanted Cole, she would have gotten him. The idea that a man of that background could reject a royal princess not just once but twice is ridiculous. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: He can't be her continued lover unless he starts out as her lover, which she's trying to achieve in that quote. There's no reason to think she'd have the whole rest of her life mapped out, particularly as she didn't yet know whether Laenor would reject her for not being chaste. And since Cole would presumably remain her sworn shield in this scenario, the opportunity for more trysts would be there and her professed love for him suggests she would be willing. The fact that Cole is still there if he doesn't want makes no sense in this setting. Trying to make sense of as inconsistent a story like that is a waste of time. You wouldn't do that if George had two identical scenes of Sansa trying to seduce Sandor in TWoW and ADoS with go the same and do not reference each other. But that's what Mushroom gives us. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: How would you classify Visery's sending Harwin to Harrenhal and forbidding anyone to repeat the rumors? As the king reacting to a potential problem for his daughter and grandchildren caused by the mischief of his scheming wife and his ingrate second-born son. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: No, there were earlier hints not attributed to Mushroom which you have decided to dismiss as not sexual or not on Rhaenyra's part. If you wanted to argue against Mushroom you could have done as Gyldayn did for the brothel queens and claimed that he just picked up on pre-existing gossip and placed himself as an eyewitness. Those involve all a child, and make no sense in context of her also having more than just an eye for here dear uncle - an infatuation that goes back before Cole even joins the KG. Rhaenyra simply cannot have an eye for her uncle while said uncle isn't there, right? On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Cole's actions at the wedding tourney are the part that's undisputed. In Mushroom's account there's a throughline from Cole rejecting to Rhaenyra to Rhaenyra sleeping with Harwin and choosing him as her champion, and then Cole thrashing the favorites of both spouses. In Eustace's account Joffrey and Harwin would seem to be just two knights as far as Cole is concerned. Two knights he attacks because they are connected to Rhaenyra and her husband. That Harwin Strong would become Rhaenyra's champion is hardly a surprise. He was the son of the Hand and had tried to marry the princess before. He clearly wanted to serve her, so why shouldn't she take it? We was also rather eager for advancement, considering the fact that he was possibly the guy who informed King Viserys I on the 'heir for a day' line. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: The green council after Viserys died was a private matter subject to more dispute, but there we don't have to rely on Mushroom to have Cole accusing Rhaenyra of having "wanton ways" and Laenor being a homosexual. Mushroom provides Cole with more knowledge that this was in fact the case, and gives such things as his motivation for turning on Rhaenyra. If Mushroom had already read Munkun's account via Orwyle of that council, then you could claim he made stuff up after the fact to fit it, but Mushroom was supposedly illiterate and you have argued that he wasn't aware of those histories. We have no idea who the sources for the Green Council talk is, but we do know that all our sources report on that. If Gyldayn doesn't name his sources we cannot say what he says is accurate or even backed by a particular source (or all sources we do know of). I'd be reasonably confident dismissing the entire direct speech in the Green Council session (and many other such incidents) as invented historical fiction. One can, perhaps, say events like the Beesbury murder and Beesbury rather than Orwyle and Beesbury being the guy opposing the coup, but aside from that it makes no sense to actually assume we 'know' who said what. I mean, how would it possible that we know that through our sources? The idea to take Cole's invented words at the Green Council as evidence for his characterization elsewhere is stretching things way too far. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Are Harwin and Joffrey her "family"? Or just two knights unlucky enough to receive the favors of the spouses while Cole was mad? Cole actually acted somewhat rationally in his anger there. The king was wroth afterwards, but Cole could likely wiggle out of the thing by saying he just fought really hard the way a knight should (at a melee that was actually improper at a wedding anyway, at least in 212 AC). He could also have challenged Strong or Velaryon or Lonmouth to a duel. But that wouldn't only have been improper, it could have brought the wrath of the Targaryens down on him. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: What could she do to destroy him? In Mushroom's version he didn't sneak into her bedchamber at night, so it would be harder for her to get someone to claim they saw him do that, and he could well have an alibi for where he was at the time while she would open herself up to allegations about having been with Harwin that night. To invent stuff about him, force him to do her every whim, arrange things so he appears to have broken his vows with a woman or committed a different act of treason, etc. This is should have been so easy. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Aerys was insane enough to put his life in the hands of a single kingsguard he'd given reason to hate him, normal people don't keep as their sworn shield somebody they hate and want to torment. Aerys II also liked to torture Jaime by refusing to allow him to fight in tourneys and stuff. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: The three Velaryon/Strong boys are all evidence, just as Cersei's children compared to Robert's natural ones were. If you are like Eustace and Munkun and accept the claim that the Hull boys were Laenor's bastards, that makes it all the more striking that none of the children he supposedly had with Rhaenyra resemble them. Marilda was a commoner, so if anything we should expect a more common appearance to her offspring than Rhaenyra's. You have indicated that you agree with Gyldayn that Corlys was more likely the father, and I think that account is most compatible with one in which Laenor had no biological children but Eustace is just unwilling to say so. More likely doesn't mean I accept it as truth. Whenever we have conflicting accounts I don't say 'this one is right' - I just say that one is a better explanation than the other. I find Mushroom's reasoning not that bad, but since there is no proof nor a confession on Corlys' or Marilda's part we just don't know. We have no reason to believe that any of our sources adequately cover secret desires and motivations - they could all be mistaken, and likely are in a number of cases. The idea that the Hull boys looking Valyrian must mean Rhaenyra's sons should look Valyrian if they had the same father is ludicrous. They could resemble another of their Velaryon or Arryn ancestors (or whatever blood they have on the female side). As I said - they could be the living images of Queen Aemma Arryn without anyone ever mentioning this because we have no idea how Aemma Arryn looked like. And with the whole dragonseeds thing Marilda of Hull could also have had Valyrian ancestors - just as Ulf and Hugh and Nettles apparently had (with Ulf looking the part, and Hugh and Nettles (possibly) not looking the part). Adopting the racist terminology of 'common appearance' doesn't reflect well on you, by the way. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It does not say that there actually were any advances, just that Alicent warned about Rhaenyra falling prey to them. People could observe the two of them together, and as far as we can tell Criston lived up the ideal of the kingsguard at that point in time, leading to him being named Lord Commander. The text we have speaks of Rhaenyra being "smitten" and having "eyes only" for Criston, without any indication of Criston making goo-goo eyes at her. Sorry, are you trying to tell us Alicent is warning Rhaenyra about non-existent advances? If Cole had been publicly been 'smitten' by Rhaenyra Targaryen - then a young girl - he would have long ago been dismissed as sworn shield and might have even been executed. Also, rather bad form on your part to hold children and adults to the same standards. Young Rhaenyra apparently very much liked Cole - and showed that as children are wont to do. All Cole could (and did) do was show his affection for Rhaenyra in the courtly manner - by wearing her favor and winning tourneys in her name, etc. If Cole or Selmy had made public advances towards the women they loved they would have quickly realized that this was a rather serious mistake on their part. And we certainly should familiarize us with the fact that not all KG are a like - Aemon and Jaime as brothers to the queen can get away with different things than some KG with a humbler background (there is a reason, one assumes, why Prince Lewyn could keep a paramour as a KG). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Was her objection to marrying Laenor that he was too lowborn? Do we hear of her rejecting her earlier suitors, such as Harwin, because they weren't Targaryen? If adjacency to the throne was her criteria then former candidate Laenor would have been quite high, and when she married Daemon she had a half-brother ahead of him in succession. Instead her criteria seems more based on manliness. Laenor was very highborn, but didn't seem above relationships with household knights. I see it as a parallel between the two of them. Harwin Strong she may have married ... Criston Cole not, even if he hadn't been a KG. But it is clear that the Iron Throne came first and husbands and personal happiness in marriage came second for her. Daemon Targaryen had the right blood and the right manliness ... what exactly Rhaenyra's issues with Laenor were we don't know. It could be that she knew he was gay, it could be that she knew he would not be able to father children, it could be that she simply did not like him much. We don't know. The fact that the Princess of Dragonstone looks for manly qualities in the men surrounding her is hardly a surprise. That's what the society she lives in praises the most in men. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Nettles was even lower than Ser Cole and ugly to boot. Rhaenyra is resorting to "spells" to explain Daemon sleeping with her after being told by Mysaria... another lowborn lover of Daemon's ("Even our normally reticent Septon Eustace" acknowledges that). It's only Eustace we have as a source for that quote, while we know Daemon was notorious in Flea Bottom and on the Street of Silk rather than some priss who wouldn't sully himself with the dregs of society. Mysaria is never indicated as being of low birth. She even wears the Targaryen red-and-black when she comes to Rhaenyra to advise her on Nettles, indicating that she actually might be of a rather high birth, all things considered. All we know is that she was a dancer in her youth, no information of her ancestry is given. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: No, when we have quotes about her being "smitten" and having "eyes only" for Criston you dismiss it. Jeyne Poole was also 'smitten' with Beric Dondarrion - this doesn't mean they ever had an affair. But my general take is just that I buy Eustace's version of the fallout - I'm not saying that Rhaenyra never found Cole attractive or never considered perhaps fucking him. In fact, I could even see that having happened once or twice with nobody ever knowing it (but that's just speculation on my part). The crucial point is that I think Rhaenyra's priority always was the Iron Throne, not a nonsensical love affair. Whatever feelings she may have had for Cole did not devolve to 'I need to fuck you so hard that I allow my uncle to drag me to brothels to get some dwarf action' nor to 'I seriously consider running away with some knight when I can rule the Seven Kingdoms'. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I think Rhaenyra paid less heed to such boundaries. Husbands and wives are supposed to live together, but she and Laenor seemed content to make their marriage look fake even as she bore his supposed heirs. She had a quickie marriage to Daemon knowing her father would object, and even you believe she gave her maidenhead to him and tried to marry him before his first wife died. When she seized King's Landing she quickly turned the populace against her. I think she just thought herself above the opinions of other people. There is an explanation for the latter: Not having money means you don't get popular over night when you desperately need money to continue your war. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: He was touching her even early in the first book before she became a captive. And he's hideously burned, refuses knighthood and constantly denounces chivalry. I meant touching in a sexual way with Sansa being able to give consent (i.e. a knight-lady kind of thing). Sansa the hostage was nearly raped by Sandor a couple of times, of course. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: No, right after her comment we read "The amity between Her Grace and her stepdaughter had proved short-lived, for both Rhaenyra and Alicent aspired to be the first lady of the realm" as the context. Alicent had already given birth to two sons by that point, leading to pressure from the Highgarden camp to change the succession. Otto was dismissed two years prior to that tourney, and the "queen's party" was said to "still exist", indicating that it was already there beforehand. Still, we don't have an exact date for the comment, meaning we cannot pretend to know when it was made or know how bad the relationship between the two women was at that point. It is common misconception to imagine things were as fucked up in 110 AC as they were in 120 or 130 AC. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I do think that was the case, but in both cases Alicent was able to find a vulnerable spot because people could see Rhaenyra was smitten with Cole and none of Rhaenyra's first three sons looked like Laenor. Alicent's quote is an attack on Criston Cole not Rhaenyra Targaryen. She paints him as a danger, not the princess as a danger to him. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Only Mushroom, whom you normally dismiss, says anything to that effect. Even he attributes it to "love potions and philtres" rather than Criston being lusty*. As it happens, I do think she was a magic user and she used those on Aemond, but I don't think we need an explanation for someone as disagreeable as Aemond not getting along with even his fellow Greens. Considering Cole and Aemond made the Harrenhal plan together and considering Aemond kept Cole as his Hand when he could have dismissed him this is an odd claim to make. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It's also in his character to be bold, while Criston comes across as relatively pragmatic, except in Eustace's claim of his romantic overture to Rhaenyra. Might Alys have wanted magical influence over Criston in addition to Aemond? I suppose it's possible though it's less clear why she'd act in a way to make them rivals, but we don't have any interactions between Criston and Alys and instead just Aemond sticking with her. Where Mushroom and Eustace agree, as they do on Aemond and Alys, we have good reason to believe something, and it becomes more speculative otherwise. However, Aemond's reluctance to leave Alys would not explain his insistence on attacking King's Landing rather than linking up with other Green forces or his reluctance to use his powers as regent to order the Hand in line. Don't try to make sense of this, there is not much sense there. Aemond leaving Alys at Harrenhal makes no sense at all, no matter how you spin it. But Aemond definitely no longer had 'regent powers' after the fall of KL. Aegon II was no longer king, he and Cole were officially rebels and outlaws now, and thus Cole definitely could do with his army whatever the hell he wanted, just as Aemond could do whatever the hell he wanted with his dragon. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: *On a minor note, we have no public information as to whether Criston was straight, gay, aesexual or whatever, but any Bayesian will tell you to remember general priors rather than focusing too much on a specific case, so I can grant that he was probably capable of feeling attraction for women even if he didn't show it. There you seem to start to lose focus entirely - this is literature, not reality, and Criston Cole isn't a real historical person. We don't even have to turn to FaB to know he had a thing for Rhaenyra, considering it is part of the collective memory as discussed by Arianne and Arys Oakheart in AFfC that Cole had had the hots for Rhaenyra: Quote “Will not? Cannot! Myrcella is more fit for rule …” “A son comes before a daughter.” “Why? What god has made it so? I am my father’s heir. Should I give up my rights to my brothers?” “You twist my words. I never said … Dorne is different. The Seven Kingdoms have never had a ruling queen.” “The first Viserys intended his daughter Rhaenyra to follow him, do you deny it? But as the king lay dying the Lord Commander of his Kingsguard decided that it should be otherwise.” Ser Criston Cole. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives, and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Criston had been Princess Rhaenyra’s lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. “The Kingmaker wrought grave harm,” Ser Arys said, “and gravely did he pay for it, but …” “… but perhaps the Seven sent you here so that one white knight might make right what another set awry. You do know that when my father returns to the Water Gardens he plans to take Myrcella with him?” Nobody but Mushroom ever whisperered that Rhaenyra Targaryen had had the hots for Criston Cole. And I daresay he did that to make fun of his audience by giving them even a more ribald story than the stuff people already believed about Cole and Rhaenyra at the time the Testimony was written. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: The worst thing a KG can possibly do is kill their own king. Not when the king is already dead. Then the worst thing you can do is to trample his memory to shitting on his will and defiling everything you swore to do back while he was alive. Cole was a Kingsguard back in 105 AC, and already Rhaenyra's sworn shield. He would have been among the first to swear the vow to defend her succession and one of the first to kneel before the new Heir Apparent. Yet broke all those vows. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: And he was following along with the Hand, who ruled in the King's absence, and the Master of Laws who insisted that sons come before daughters. That is all irrelevant since the king had made a decision. The Hand can speak with the King's Voice, but not when the king is saying something else. And he did say something else, did he not? On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Even Rhaenyra chose that for the inheritance of Rosby and Stokeworth rather than accepting Daemon's suggestion of leaving it to daughters who could marry Ulf and Hugh. That Rhaenyra's case was a special case is not in doubt. She was the blood of the dragon and made Heir Apparent by the king's sovereign will. She could also have ruled in favor of the daughters ... but who can demand that she had to (I'd say she should have). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Criston could believe he was upholding the law and that Rhaenyra was the usurper, as Kermit Tully and Stannis Baratheon believed. Sorry, no. Then he shouldn't have been the sworn shield of the future usurper, should have treated Aegon the Elder as the Heir Apparent throughout the reign of Viserys I, and should have openly defied his king when he named Rhaenyra his heir. He did none of that - he did not even change his opinion when Aegon the Elder was born in 107 AC. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Most of the kingsguard followed along with him, with all dying for their cause other than Willis Fell, who was following orders to keep the princess safe. Possibly because they were corrupt people beholden to and chosen by Criston Cole. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: It would be impossible for him to keep that high opinion of himself under Eustace's scenario of him eloping with Rhaenyra. Why not? On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: And even in Mushroom's story about Alys Rivers, he doesn't indicate that Cole broke his vows. There are dishonorable kingsguard who have broken their vows and sought to escape punishment, but Criston acts like a true believer who went down swinging. Was his belief that Rhaenyra was a usurper the product of him ditching her for the Greens and accepting the view that the Velaryon boys were bastards rather than just Andal succession laws? There are no Andal succession laws binding the Iron Throne. The only thing people cite that has teeth is the Great Council, and that's not 'an Andal succession law' but simply a precedent overturned by King Viserys I in 105 AC. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I would say so. But once he had this view, he would consider it to be traitorous to do elsewise. In a hypothetical were a Great Council was called after the death of the king and the heir that the king himself selected is rejected, is a KG bound to disobey that Great Council and continue championing the previous heir? How should I know? One imagines it depends on the man in question and the circumstances of the situation in detail. If a king names an heir than any loyal man - KG or otherwise - would stand by that heir and ensure his or her succession - unless said heir agrees to give up his claim and allow a Great Council to deliberate the succession and choose who should be the next king. If such a council were called against the wishes of the rightful heir and as a means to steal his or her birthright then a leal man has but one option - defiance to this attempted coup. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I mostly agree on that, but I think Otto could easily consider him "a second Maegor the Cruel" considering what characterization we get for Daemon. Many of those details take place later, but we can assume he acted the rogue when younger as well. Actually, no. Daemon is nowhere near in Maegor territory, and his association with the dregs of society only starts after Otto in his foolishness creates a series of events which cause the king to make Daemon commander of the City Watch. There is no indication that young Daemon was a particularly evil/cruel prince in the 90s when the Old King gave him Dark Sister (a very great honor) and they decided to marry him to the heiress of Runestone. Even later Daemon never even remotely considers bloodbaths of the proportion that Maegor did. He had a sadistic streak and was unruly and somewhat changeable and wouldn't have been an ideal king, but nothing indicates he would have been even remotely like Maegor. It is narrative shortcoming of the final version of the story that we don't know why Otto and Daemon didn't get along. Otto must have been a very stupid and incoherent fellow if he was so afraid of King Daemon that he had to install an Heir Apparent that wasn't Daemon or one of the sons the king might have later in life this early in the king's reign. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: You think Gyldayn makes no sense, but he's trying to establish a pattern in Rhaenyra's actions on those ocassions when Laenor did visit. I think if the three of them were actually into such threesomes then they would have preferred spending more time together rather than apart. Perhaps they tried early on, the way Margaery suggests to Renly in the show, but decided they preferred just to stick with their own lovers. I think you mean Mushroom there, but with us not knowing the context of those claims on Mushroom's side your 'explanation' here is just hot air. We don't have any idea what he tried to do with that apparent contradiction - and I see no reason to assume Gyldayn would call something that was supposed to be 'a pattern' a 'contradiction'. The man should be able to realize that Mushroom was talking about changing preferences and the like if that's what he was doing. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Salacious anecdotes is Mushroom's stock in trade. Mushroom gives us an explanation for why none of Laenor's three "legitimate" children looked Velaryian, even compared to the Hull boys, along with helping to provide motivations for the murders of both Laenor and Harwin. Eustace and Munkun have no explanation for why lightning struck the same unexpected spot three times with Laenor's "legitimate" kids but not the two Hull boys. Mushroom is our one witness with Rhaenyra, so I do grant him more credibility there than elsewhere rather deciding to dismiss everything he says. We don't really need an explanation for the looks of Rhaenyra's sons. They looked the way they looked, period. If you find that odd - fine. I don't necessarily. Again - why does Elaena Targaryen have that freak streak of hair? Why do Alyssa and Shiera have mismatched eyes? Why does Alysanne have common blond hair when both her parents had Valyrian hair? And so on. Why do strong and healthy Targaryens often (also) have physically weak and sickly children? Harrenhal burned and we do know who murdered Laenor, and possibly also why. Whether anyone was behind that we don't know, and we really cannot know. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: You could say that of any instance in which Gyldayn cites conflicting sources. Just throw up your hands and have fun. You certainly can do that, but we're here because we think we can apply some reasoning to guess which theories are more likely. And you did that when saying it was unlikely that Daemon had Laenor killed, even though Gyldayn provided backup for Mushroom's theory there. I don't have fixed opinion on the murder issue. I can come up with another thing tomorrow. If there is fun, then the fun is to change your mind, not stick to some illusion of 'historical truth'. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: The swiftness of their marriage and his subsequent birth points in that direction. Eustace and Munkun are naturally going to be more reticent when writing about the king they were then serving. Eustace never served Aegon III while the man was ruling in his own right, and Munkun likely wrote his history after the death of Aegon III or while he was not serving as his Grand Maester. Aegon III apparently did not keep Munkun as Grand Maester. No idea why they should not state things as fact there. It is dishonorable to been born a bastard, not to be conceived as one. But this whole thing should be a non-issue. We should have the date of Rhaenyra-Daemon's marriage and the birthday of Aegon III, so everybody should know whether he was already conceived when they married or not. This is not an issue for hushed rumors but hard math. Since we, the readers, don't have any dates on that subjects (aside from the general fact that Aegon III was born late in 120 AC) it is definitely possible that Laena and Laenor died and Rhaenyra and Daemon married in the first three months of that year. Just as it is rather likely that an illiterate (we don't know he was illiterate, though) Mushroom didn't actually do his numbers correctly when he dictated his version of the year 120 AC decades later. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: That's partly what this is I've discussed a number of examples, and generally agree with the ones I've linked. Well, that's not a systematic take on the thing. I tried to make a thread but it was too much work. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Another I'll add is whether Viserys was poisoned, which is one of GRRM's earliest examples of Mushroom vs Eustace. Gyldayn dismisses it by noting that Mushroom was on Dragonstone at the time, but Mushroom is still sometimes correct even when he's elsewhere. We know Larys Strong poisoned Aegon II, so it would be in-character for him to do that for the previous king, although his motivations would be more opaque. Rhaenyra was in labor, so it was good timing for the Greens, but the main reason to think otherwise is that the king was so sickly his death was expected soon anyway. You've said that Alicent never loved Viserys, which would make it more likely that she would be complicit in such a thing. I think it comes down to how soon Larys decided on a plan and how important the timeline of Rhaenyra's pregnancy was to that. If you think that Larys arranged for the deaths of both his father and brother, which I find plausible, that would put him on the side of the Greens earlier and possibly afraid of what Rhaenyra would do to him if she discovered he had killed her lover. That is far too much convoluted speculation on my part. Nobody needs Larys Strong for any of that. And then there is the fact that this guy was no experienced poisoner, anyway. He needed Grand Maester Orwyle to get the poison he and Corlys Velaryon (who, unlike Strong, actually admitted that he did poison the man) and the entire Green court, Kingsguard included, used to poison Aegon II. You don't want such an amateur in a poisoning plot. Larys murdering his father and brother is the best theory if the fire wasn't an accident (with them not proving it was arson we don't even know that this was murder) but that was something he would have done in his own self-interest, not to for any of the court factions. It made him a great lord in his own right. Viserys I could also have been slowly poisoned over a longer period of time, rather than just with one pinch of poison to push him over the edge. The idea that Viserys I's health could have been public knowledge - especially on Dragonstone - in early 129 AC makes no sense at all. If this were the case Daemon and Rhaenys and Corlys and Rhaenyra's sons (if not she herself because of her pregnancy) would have come to KL to ensure nobody did anything foolish were the king to die - not to mention that they would have all take their leave of the dying king, etc. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Mushroom wasn't present, but he and Eustace were in agreement that he was with another woman, so I think that bit is probably right. Mushroom's tendency is to exaggerate a grain of truth for entertainment purposes while Eustace gives a more socially acceptable account, so I am going to doubt his claim about his paramour being so well off and cared for as well as the part of Mushroom's account that would seem to put Aegon's own person at risk. Something that would be easily dealt with if the prince was accompanied by a dozen or more men-at-arms. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Mushroom elsewhere says that he had two bastards from a whore and a servant in the same year as his legitimate twins (though there's nothing about those bastards being acknowledged), so I'm guessing his lover that night was roughly in that range of social strata. He was also known for drinking, so I'll guess Mushroom was right that he wasn't sober and I REALLY doubt he was averse to preventing his hated half-sister from taking the crown, although Cole's warnings about his own safety may have motivated him to act quickly rather than sleeping off his drunken haze. I told you, the claim that he had bastards means that they were acknowledged (at least in the Mushroomverse). Nobody could know they were his if he did not say they were. You mean Cole's delusions about Aegon's safety, right? Assuming such talk did actually happen. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: What I find interesting about that is he gives reasons to doubt Munkun and Eustace's take on Helaena's death, but his only reason for rejecting Mushroom is that it would require one to accept the brothel queens story. And, as noted, his reason for rejecting the brothel queens story is that it was a widespread rumor which "may be" originated later, possibly when Aegon II wanted a justification, and that Mushroom picked up those rumors after the fact or "misremembered" years later. The point with the brothel queens is that something like that would have always been more than a rumor. Half of KL would have known some guy who had fucked either Alicent and Helaena if you could do that in some brothel. There would be countless of credible reports, and Munkun's many eye witnesses would comment on that, too (unless he didn't interview any Kingslanders...). On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Gyldayn also gives reasons to believe that the Shepherd's accusation that it was "murder" is a slander, with Mushroom giving the one explanation for how that rumor could have come about. And Larys Clubfoot's subsequent association with Trystane Truefyre and Perkin the Flea makes fits with him conspiring to turn another "king" against Rhaenyra. Part of Gyldayn's argument against it being murder is that Luthor Largent had an alibi, but he's just one man who may have been picked as a suspect due to his high visibility commanding the Gold Cloaks. As for motivations for killing her... if she actually was pregnant people could point to her offspring as another possible claimant for the throne, as would happen in even more baseless cases like Gaemon and Trystane. We know that Cheese threatened her daughter with rape, and Cersei expected mass rape of noblewomen to be the result of King's Landing falling, and Salladhor Saan indicates she specifically was right to fear him. So perhaps the truth is that she was raped when the city fell with Rhaenyra's complicity, and this got exaggerated into the brothel queens story. I find Munkun's explanation the least plausible, while on behalf of Eustace I will at least say that malice doesn't seem out of character for Mysaria. I suppose we could even combine Helaena being pregnant and hearing about Maelor somehow as enough to tip her over the edge while partly fitting two different accounts. With there being no indication Helaena was pregnant that idea falls flat for me. Even more so since Rhaenyra could have just dealt with the unborn babe via moon tea rather than killing mother and unborn child. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: I think the dragon sexes already was addressed in the main series by Aemon, who tied it in with the idea that Daenerys is the Prince Who Was Promised, something that Marwyn agrees with once he hears. We've been following Daenerys for a while, and she definitely seems integrally tied into the supernatural and prophecy. It is the other way around. Barth's claim about dragon sex stuff is used to justify the idea that the prince that was promised (possibly simply 'a dragon (in human form)' in the original language could also be female. But whether that means dragons really can change sexes and do so is completely unanswered - and might never be addressed in the books. I mean, what purpose would that have? If there were eggs in Winterfell from Vermax then people could have just mistakenly believed Vermax was male, and if any of Dany's children ever produce eggs then this doesn't tell us anything about whether they were male at an earlier point in life. On 1/5/2020 at 3:08 AM, FictionIsntReal said: Orwyle wrote his confessions while he was imprisoned and awaiting execution, and was indulged and allowed to live while he continued to write. And even before we get Gyldayn's take, Tyrion lets us know Munkun's book is inaccurate. I agree with Tyrion and Mushroom that he was trying to kill Syrax and that Munkun and Eustace are wrong. Mushroom's account fits with what Byron's squire wrote to his daughter, which is more confirmation than we get for most of these conflicting accounts, and Mushroom himself was actually near that particular dragon. Gyldayn places the least credibility on the account that Eustace wrote in a letter years after his history, and I agree with his reasoning. I've noted that I found his explanations of Helaena's death, Byron Swann and Aemond vs Cole to be the least plausible, and in all but the last Gyldayn also casts doubt on him. Those are all separate from Orwyle making himself look better. To me the Syrax account makes pretty much no sense, considering the dragon was in KL and Byron Swann was confirmed to have been at Storm's End during the Luke affair. How on earth is it plausible that Stormlander with close ties to Borros Baratheon is allowed into the Red Keep where Syrax was chained? Both the Vhagar and the Sunfyre account make more sense, being dragons who were out in the field - the Vhagar thing most considering that Swann would have seen Vhagar kill Arrax and Lucerys, something that could have kindled some sort of dragonslayer desire in him. Slaying the queen's dragon in her own castle sounds and reads like a pointless suicide attempt. And something his squire, if present, shouldn't have survived considering they would have likely executed him as co-conspirator after the screams of Byron had woken the entire castle. And if hadn't been there ... well, then he could have confused the dragon just as well as Munkun's sources allegedly did (who interviewed a lot of eye witnesses). But, in the end, this whole thing is dealt with rather poorly in FaB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FictionIsntReal Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/6/2020 at 7:03 PM, Lord Varys said: In fact, it seems rather curious that Arryk Cargyll survived the madness of Otto Hightower's preemptive arrests - his twin brother was with Rhaenyra, so it was actually foolish of the Greens to trust Arryk unless they could be sure of his loyalty for some reason (even more so after the defection of Steffon Darklyn). The Kingsguard generally weren't thought of as partisans, though Cole was an exception and also a Lord Commander who gave orders to the KG. The arrests were focused on people known to be Blacks, with a purportedly neutral figure like Orwyle threatened with imprisonment alongside them by Aegon II rather than Otto after Orwyle advocated a conciliatory line Alicent also favored. At any rate, KG lend prestige to their cause, so dismissing one can be a bad idea, which is why Varys suggested that for Barristan. Quote The actual 'grooming' took place years before, before Cole was Rhaenyra's sworn shield and before she was even the Heir Apparent Grooming involves gaining the trust of a child and making them complicit in acts which become increasingly sexual, with actual intercourse taking a while to get to. But you are right that those earlier steps help provide a foundation. Quote Rhaenyra's first/true love was always her dashing and dangerous uncle, not Criston Cole, and definitely not Harwin Strong (especially in light of the fact that Daemon is the only guy for whom there is actual convincing evidence that Rhaenyra loved him - she even showed that love later during the Dance). You seem convinced it's Daemon to the exclusion of everybody else, but before they married she didn't quite seem pining over him or jealous of his wives. Do you think he's the actual father of the three children she had attributed to Laenor? And I don't find it surprising that she was devoted to him during the Dance: their marriage seemed to have personal rather than just political motivations, and her sworn shield was somebody appointed by her father rather than chosen for herself. But unlike Arya disputing the story about Ashara*, I don't think loving your spouse in the present means you never loved anybody else before you married. *I don't want to make an argument about Ashara specifically, just that Catelyn's memories indicate that Ned was a somewhat disappointing replacement for Brandon and their relationship was initially somewhat cool, only warming to each other with time before Arya was born and took that to be the eternal norm. Quote It would not help him with his goal to get closer to the throne to marry a fallen woman the king might have very well disinherited and cut from the succession in the wake of this entire ridiculous seduction affair. But that's not a risk when he's caught actually sleeping with her while married to Rhea Royce? Quote If you were helping me to seduce another person I'd not come back over a decade later to marry you. You would be my best buddy, perhaps, the guy I come to complain about my lover, but definitely not the guy I'd want to fuck or marry. He wasn't just acting as her wingman, they were actually performing sexual acts. Quote Rhaenyra would be a rather weird and inconsistent person for the Mushroom story there to make sense What's inconsistent about her? The others as well, but I'm mostly wondering about her. Quote For Rhaenyra Daemon was no longer a great husband for political reasons - he brought a dragon, sure, but she was the Princess of Dragonstone and had dragons aplenty. This isn't Temeraire, dragons are still rare and valuable. Caraxes was an adult dragon which had already outlived a previous dragon, and Daemon had demonstrateted its worth in combat, including his own abilities as its rider, during war for the Stepstones. That wasn't even Caraxes first war, as it had outlived Aemon, who rode it during the Fourth Dornish War. Sure, Vhagar was larger still, but if she wasn't marrying Aegon II there's far less chance of Aemond, particularly after the incident in which he acquired it. Quote Daemon was neither a lord in his own right nor an heir who would one day become a lord - if Rhaenyra had married another heir/lord (as she did in Laenor) their children would one day become great lords themselves. This is a rather important consideration when you consider a marriage. Rhaenyra was herself an heir, and marriages between two heirs seem to be unusually uncommon in Westeros, which has been explained away as a taboo but seems to be for GRRM's convenience. Quote George confirmed moon tea is a very effective abortifacient and birth control potion. If Rhaenyra did not want to get pregnant by Daemon she wouldn't have. Could you point to where specifically? I recall him saying that it's based on natural abortifacents which were powerful and dangerous, and that he futzed with the recipe both to make it fantastical and to prevent people trying it in real life. I know that it's been speculated that Lysa's infertility is linked to taking such drugs earlier to abort her pregnancy by Petyr, as she nearly died that time. In our world, there's plenty of birth control which is cheaply available in drug stores, and people get pregnant without planning to rather than using condoms out of simple thoughtlessness. [And nobody was able to force Daemon to do anything, either - aside from, perhaps, his father or grandfather back when they arranged the Royce match for him (about which we know literally nothing). ] I agree that was very unlikely to happen again. He'd done his duty, to basically nobody's happiness, he and Rhaenyra both had officially legitimate children from their respective marriages, and there was no pressing political need at the time. Quote Princess Rhaenyra's hymen was never investigated as far as we know, and having an intact hymen doesn't mean you didn't have vaginal intercourse unless George's ASoIaF women were refitted to fit the mad concepts of patriarchal bigots believing inspecting a woman after a first fuck is going to reveal whether that fuck took place or not. Westeros sort of is a mad patriarchy in which maidenheads are checked when there is reason to doubt. Munkun checked Tyshara Lannister, for instance, and confirmed it had been broken. Quote No woman is inspected prior to her marriage, not even Margaery Tyrell when she claims to be a maiden when she marries Joffrey (she is only investigated by the Faith after her arrest), so the very idea that a royal princess of Rhaenyra's rank would ever have to deal with shit like that is preposterous. You are right that political concerns can override doubts: the Lannisters wanted her quickly married to Joffrey and were not going to take a risk of having her found to be without a maidenhead so that people could believe a child after a quick marriage might be Renly's. And indeed, while Cersei mistakenly misbelieves that Renly's marriage was consummated due to his visible arousal, she also thinks that Marg lost it earlier due to horseback riding. I had assumed that it would not be lost by riding a dragon since air is not so bumpy, but I have to admit it's just an assumption. Quote But nobody can know whether they actually had sex - just as Rhaenyra and Harwin lying abed together (if Mushroom told the truth) doesn't mean they actually had vaginal intercourse. Cersei asks whether Margaery left blood in her marriage bed with Renly, even though she suspects she'd already lost it without sex. If Mushroom did see blood in the bed with Harwin, that would explain how he knew she was maiden earlier. Quote And what good would Rhaenyra the Heir Apparent be as Daemon's wife if she was still in love with Criston Cole? As Kingsguard, he's prohibited from being a real competitor to Daemon on that front. Quote The idea that Daemon would actually try to publicly destroy Rhaenyra's honor and reputation to then be able to marry her makes no sense from a power play perspective - because it might cause him to end up with soiled goods at the very end of the line of succession Not the very end. He's still ahead of the Velaryons in his own right, though they were put forth as candidates. His children with Rhaenyra will also be the descendants of King Viserys. I don't think he has any potential wives closer in succession available. Quote The idea that Daemon would actually try to publicly destroy Rhaenyra's honor and reputation It doesn't say he schemed for it to be public, just that he confirmed it when Viserys asked. Quote Wouldn't Rhaenyra fight this marriage to the death and refuse to marry Daemon in the Mushroom scenario if she actually only wanted Cole? Marrying Cole isn't an option, and she'd already agreed to marry Laenor in Mushroom's story with Cole. By the time she marries Daemon, Cole was years into his defection to the Greens. Quote Especially once she learned that her uncle had planned to force her to marry him from the start with this ridiculous setup? She wasn't pushed unwillingly into it, but instead seemed happy to have his help, and Daemon isn't given responsibility for them getting found out, only confirming it. She might even be flattered that he wants to marry her. Quote When George rips off fiction to include in his fiction that's always a hint. When else? Quote No, Saera's exploits came out when the queen questioned her female companions. The Tom Turnip story was the reason why she questioned them, sure, but Mushroom's story doesn't involve a prank gone bad. We don't have many details of how they were discovered, but there's still a young woman engaged in early sexual experimentation with a roguish knight, secretly visiting brothels, the involvement of a supposedly lackwit fool as participant, them getting unexpectedly caught, a casual confession and suggestion of polygamy as a solution which the king rejects. Quote That in and of itself sort of implies she didn't need an old uncle to help her have sex/seduce somebody at the age of 14 Cole isn't just somebody, he's a Kingsguard who's known her since she was a girl and per Daemon still thinks of her that way. Quote But that's not what he says - Mushroom claims the story came out in no small part to himself, not that somebody (or he himself) clandestinely informed the king and only the king. It doesn't say who he told. Quote Unlike with the Eustace version - where King Viserys I commands all people involved to shut up and never repeat what they witnessed/did - no such commands are mentioned in the Mushroom version I'll acknowledge that's true. We don't have the precise details of who all might know and who would have to be sworn to silence. Quote You cannot pretend the Mushroom was as much a clandestine affair as the Eustace version when the text simply does not say or indicate that. It doesn't explicitly say it was or it wasn't, and Gyldayn doesn't say anything about whether it fits the public record. Quote But this kind of thing would have been known by a lot of people. It would have been as large or larger than the Saera affair They were caught by some random city guard when Tom Turnip was making a disturbance. We don't have that in this case. Quote Saera had companions Companions who were involved in these activities, which is not a detail repeated for Mushroom's story, where instead Rhaenyra spends significant amounts of time alone with Daemon. Quote The idea that the Realm's Delight can be taken disguised as a page to the exclusive brothels of KL in the company of the Prince of the City without being recognized by many a patron of those very same brothels is, quite frankly, completely ridiculous Daemon was Lord of Fleabottom. He has the pull to arrange discretion. And it's not like people haven't been secreted in and out of brothels in the main series. Quote We don't know whether there was a Master of Whisperers in 111 AC. Did they just let the position go unfilled for all those years prior to Larys? It's not like they announced a sudden need to revive the office. Quote That is an ad hoc explanation how this thing may have made sense. It is not what Mushroom says. He says "in no small part", but we don't know what form that took. Quote The only reason you seem to like the Mushroom variation is that you, for some reason, seem to like the variation of Cole Mushroom paints I actually start with Rhaenyra's marriage to Laenor and "their" three sons. All evidence points to Laenor not being the father, and Harwin as the candidate for biological father, while Corlys fathered the Hull boys. Mushroom is the one who confirms that, while others hint at it (we've discussed Mellos, but Eustace also thinks Daemon killed Harwin because he was a rival for Rhaenyra, which I find plausible). Mushroom's story about Cole is where Rhaenyra's relationship with Harwin begins. It's also the case that this version of Cole fits more with what we see of his behavior elsewhere, and that the quote from him in that Green Council meeting indicates a puritanical attitude toward sex which would both help explain his willingness to join the KG and fit with his very negative attitude toward Rhaenyra when she comes onto him and his punishment of those two knights in the wedding tourney. Quote which I don't think fits well with anything Cole later does. Such a Cole would have perhaps become a cynical pragmatist not opposing the rise of the Green regime but he wouldn't have become Aegon II's most prominent partisan outside the Hightower family. Why do you think that? Nobody on the Green side is accused of trying to get him to break his vow of chastity, nor of trying to insert bastards into any succession, nor of homosexuality or "bearding". Aegon II has been compared to Rhaenyra, but his arranged marriage to Helaena seemed real enough and produced children whose legitimacy wasn't in doubt, while the women he's supposed to have had extramarital relations with are lowborn enough we don't get any names for them or their children, and were thus not public disgraces. Quote If he truly liked Rhaenyra it doesn't show in the stories he tells about her. It seems he liked ribald stories most of all. The examples where Gyldayn notes that Mushroom loved Rhaenyra well while Eustace loved her little are when she's presented with the head of Maelor or saw the condition of Sunfyre on Dragonstone. Quote we have no idea whether Mushroom/Eustace liked/disliked Aegon II or any of the other notables of the Blacks and Greens - although we do know that Mushroom definitely didn't like Aegon III It doesn't say so outright, but Eustace has the Elder reluctant to take the crown rather than "grasping", with a mistress who wasn't noble but also supposedly well off and cared for, and speculated to have asked with his last words to be taken to a sept to pray for forgiveness at the end of his life. Eustace also refers to Rhaenyra after her death as "the Pretender", another sign on top of her invented rejection by the throne that he regarded Aegon II as more legitimate than her. Quote Actually, Eustace is writing a history there, not some kind of devotinal literature. A history where divine avatars make themselves manifest during the storming of the Dragonpit, Rhaenyra herself is bitten into seven pieces by Sunfyre, Shrykos is slain with seven blows, Rhaenyra's "mother's heart" prevents her from responding to Arryk's attack and the Seven Who Rode during the riot because "their hearts were touched by a mother's love for her son", Jacaerys spends most of his time in the North trying to persuade his hosts to convert, Arryk prays to the Mother before his mission to Dragonstone, Eustace himself is spared by Perkin the Flea due to "the Mother's mercy", Cregan is also swayed by the Mother not to execute Corlys despite the fact that he was per Eustace himself a heathen who didn't worship the Seven, Aegon III's seven regents are compared to the Seven Above. Quote Eustace does have his biases, but he doesn't write his history for a clerical or particularly pious audience - if he were doing that there would be no salacious rumor in there at all. Eustace was writing before any papers on a blowback effect, and Gyldayne notes that he typically discussed rumors in order to rebut them. Quote I'm not sure Mushroom is just a series of salacious anecdotes That is how Gyldayn refers to his Testimony, even if Gyldayn himself finds that collection of anecdotes to be valuable. Quote Rhaenyra actually lusting after Cole is something we only get in Mushroom. Her hanging out with him - sure. But does Myrcella being often with Arys Oakheart, her sworn shield, mean that she has to lust after him? No. Rhaenyra is not merely "hanging out" with him, she is "smitten" and has "eyes only" for him, leading Alicent to make that dig at Cole. That's not the case with Myrcella. Quote Rhaenyra's public condemnation of bastards indicates she may not have been that interested in fucking men she could not marry. That condemnation comes after two bastards that she knighted into her service betrayed her. Quote A wealthy steward from the Reach might actually control more assets than a Mormont of Bear Island. A steward manages wealth on behalf of his lord, he doesn't actually get to control wealth however he chooses, and his children inherit none of that wealth. Quote We do have evidence that Cole had a thing for Rhaenyra What evidence is there outside of that disputed incident from Eustace? The text has Rhaenyra smitten with him, not the other way around. Quote was quite a passionate character in his wrath and hatred later on Hateful and wrath-filled I can grant you, though still more pragmatic on that front than someone like Aemond. Quote At that point our mode of discussion breaks down. I no longer recall what you are referencing there ;-) Whether Viserys would have Cole killed for fleeing to Essos with Rhaenyra on the eve of her wedding. Quote Cole wanted Rhaenyra to run away with him as per Eustace - he knew he could not fuck her at court Why not? Jaime did with Cersei, and Rhaenyra allegedly did so with Harwin. Quote Rhaenyra offering him to fuck her and indicating she might reveal that/or allow her fornication become public knowledge could and likely would destroy Cole She doesn't indicate that she would reveal that in the anecdote, and what reason would she have to do so in a scenario where Harwin never takes his place? Quote if Rhaenyra was thought to be a slut Cole would be the first suspect of having fucked the princess - Queen Alicent would make sure of that, as she already hinted at in her earlier warnings Alicent would likely attempt such a thing. I think people would be less likely to believe it of Cole, who was held in high regard as a KG, although he would definitely be screwed if the truth came to light in such a scenario. Quote Fornication is no positive trait in a woman, and could lead to the birth of a bastard which would also cause Rhaenyra to (possibly or likely) lose her status as Heir Apparent As per the Eustace version which you favor, fornication that Viserys knew about did not in fact lead to her losing her status as heir. Quote The idea that she would have risked that both in 111 AC or 113 AC with a man like Cole is just ludicrous - especially since in 113 AC she only agreed to marry Laenor because her father threatened to change the succession. If she got pregnant in the later case, unlike the former, it could be attributed to her husband. Quote Well, in any scenario it is odd that Rhaenyra didn't destroy Cole. She could have done that easily enough She doesn't have the ammunition to do so in Mushroom's version, and the Greens would act to block whatever attempts she made. Quote whereas it is rather odd that Cole didn't destroy her He pissed off Viserys at the tourney, he was in no position to try and get the King to do anything against Rhaenyra based on the word of a guy Viserys probably doesn't want to hear from for a while. Quote I'd have grabbed the filthy wench by the hair, dragged her naked through the entire Red Keep to throw to the ground in front of the entire throne The story takes place at night when people are in bed, so the court isn't populating the throne room. Quote I'd have to fear nothing in a trial-by-combat (and chances are not that good that a king as weak-willed as Viserys I would have been able to defend his daughter in a scenario like this According to the Eustace version you favor, when a Kingsguard caught Rhaenyra fornicating with her uncle Viserys' response was to hush it up and exile the uncle. Quote Even if I had been unwilling/too cowardly to pull of something like that, I could have used my insight knowledge about Rhaenyra's conduct to destroy her reputation completely long before the Dance of the Dragons dawned. We are talking 111 and 113 AC here - that woman could have become the slut princess in the eyes of the public long before she became the fat princess. The other Greens did that. That kind of behavior is less acceptable in a Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who can be demoted on the king's prerogative and sent wherever he chooses with whatever tasks/responsibilities he chooses. Quote Nothing wrong with a man wanting to have handsome people around him rather than ugly ones, right? Prior to his marriage concerns about it focused on Laenor surrounding himself with handsome young men, specifically, to the exclusion of expressing any interest in women. Quote And you can, of course, also be jealous because your friend has other friends he showers with attention and money without the entire thing being a sexual thing. Jealous enough to kill your own lord and then cut down multiple people escaping? And jealous of a sixteen year old squire, when you are a knight who has served as your lord's sworn shield for years? Quote In fact, Laenor Velaryon could merely have publicly flirted with the prospect of being seen as gay when in fact he was as asexual as Vaegon or Aerys I and only did that to discourage women to approach him Does a character ever do anything like that in the books? Because leading people to believe you might be gay would be a terrible strategy for avoiding bother. Quote There are quite a few ways to explain his behavior, nothing of which indicates sexual intercourse or even romances with those favorites of his What does it indicate elsewhere in the series? Because that seems to be GRRM's way of telling the readers that a character is gay, even if some readers didn't pick up on that for Renly and Loras. Quote And, as it happens, Laenor Velaryon supposedly had two bastard children. And through astonishing happenstance, neither resembled any of the three children he supposedly fathered on his wife. Quote If Cole wasn't Rhaenyra's lover while he was her sworn shield what reason is there to believe Harwin was her lover while he was her sworn shield? Rhaenyra was married while Harwin was her sworn shield, and all her pregnancies were officially chalked up as legitimate. That would not have been the case during earlier years when Cole was her sworn shield. Quote There is no accumulation of evidence about the fatherhood of Rhaenyra's children - just speculation. It's three children, all of whom don't resemble their supposed father, which is the same evidence for Cersei. Although at least with Cersei her husband seemed lusty enough to father children, and provably virile given the bastards he'd fathered. Quote You are too smart for that kind of comparison - Cersei was in love with Jaime, her twin brother, not some Kingsguard, since they were six years old (at least). Rhaenyra was said to be smitten with Cole from an early age, and like Cersei appears to have suggested that her favorite knight be added to the KG in part so he could stay near her. Quote You are too smart for that kind of comparison I am provably not, as I just made it Quote That's an altogether different relationship. If Rhaenyra had had the hots for Cole the way Jaime and Cersei have them for each other, Rhaenyra would have tried to sleep with Cole as a seven-year-old Jaime and Cersei were able to carry out early sexual experimentation with each other because they were both children and siblings who shared the same bed until their mother found out what they were up to. The same opportunities aren't going to be available with an adult. Quote In fact, the reason why our sources didn't indicate an affair between Cole and Rhaenyra at all sort of indicate that Rhaenyra was not interested - because all things considered: If she had wanted Cole, she would have gotten him. The idea that a man of that background could reject a royal princess not just once but twice is ridiculous. She was a child before he joined the KG, and it's not at all ridiculous for a KG not to sleep with a princess. Quote As the king reacting to a potential problem for his daughter and grandchildren caused by the mischief of his scheming wife and his ingrate second-born son. Via "castration" or "severe punishment"? Or was that "while nobody talks and nobody listens"? Quote Those involve all a child Though you wouldn't apply such a dismissal to Cersei with Jaime. Quote and make no sense in context of her also having more than just an eye for here dear uncle - an infatuation that goes back before Cole even joins the KG. Rhaenyra simply cannot have an eye for her uncle while said uncle isn't there, right? She is said to be smitten and to have eyes only for Cole, whether you think that makes sense or not. And whether she would still be smitten with Cole if Daemon had never left we don't know. But unless you think Daemon fathered the children attributed to Laenor, the simplest explanation is that Rhaenyra was into more than one man. Quote Two knights he attacks because they are connected to Rhaenyra and her husband. Why do that to knights whose only significance was getting the favors of the spouses at the wedding? And if it was Rhaenyra's rejection that angered him, why does Joffrey get "the fullest measure of his wroth"? Years later Cole brings up Laenor's sexuality when arguing against Rhaenyra taking the throne, it seems consistent with someone who hated gay people. Quote he was possibly the guy who informed King Viserys I on the 'heir for a day' line I find that plausible. Quote If Gyldayn doesn't name his sources we cannot say what he says is accurate or even backed by a particular source (or all sources we do know of). He names three sources for the council meeting and says where they differ. Gyldayn doesn't say "X says" for every single line, and we don't reject such lines for that reason. He more often gives an attribution when a claim seems less certain. I've gotten so used to you dismissing lines where a source is given that it's a bit odd to have you doing that for an event we know to be covered by multiple sources but this particular bit isn't singled out as differing from one source to another. Since Orwyle participated in the meeting, my assumption is that Gyldayn is relying on him via Munkun and only specifying him as a source where others differ. Quote I mean, how would it possible that we know that through our sources? Easily, if Orwyle wrote it down. Quote The idea to take Cole's invented words at the Green Council as evidence for his characterization elsewhere is stretching things way too far. We look through the entire text for evidence of people's character, sometimes doubting the text if there are reasons for doing so. Gyldayn gives no reason to doubt that quote, he has a source known to be there, and two more sources who seem to agree about everything that doesn't involve Orwyle himself. I know that it sometimes seems like GRRM got tired of his historian conceit and wanted to dump some big quotes like it was a POV chapter, but this is just a strange objection. Quote Cole actually acted somewhat rationally in his anger there. The king was wroth afterwards, but Cole could likely wiggle out of the thing by saying he just fought really hard the way a knight should (at a melee that was actually improper at a wedding anyway, at least in 212 AC). He could also have challenged Strong or Velaryon or Lonmouth to a duel. But that wouldn't only have been improper, it could have brought the wrath of the Targaryens down on him. I agree that duelling would have been much dumber and that participating in the melee was approved by the king, but that's not an explanation for how those two knights would constitute "family" of his targets or why they'd merit his "black fury". I guess you could argue that it's just a coincidence those two got hurt the most, just like the children we've discussed have been coincidences. Quote To invent stuff about him, force him to do her every whim, arrange things so he appears to have broken his vows with a woman or committed a different act of treason, etc. This is should have been so easy. Cersei also thought it should have been so easy to frame Margaery, but it blew up in her face. I don't think you know how easy it would actually be if your target is actually incorruptible. Quote Aerys II also liked to torture Jaime by refusing to allow him to fight in tourneys and stuff. As long as king Viserys approves of Cole fighting in tourneys, I think he'd continue to do so. And I don't think Rhaenyra would want a sworn shield who despises her, because whatever her faults she's not Mad King Aerys II. Quote The idea that the Hull boys looking Valyrian must mean Rhaenyra's sons should look Valyrian if they had the same father is ludicrous. Ludicrous in a book series where the big political conflict kicks off after Ned Stark realizes Cersei's children aren't Roberts due to their appearance? Are you going to dismiss the main books in favor of the histories, and even then dismiss lines which don't have explicit sources, or which do? Quote They could resemble another of their Velaryon or Arryn ancestors (or whatever blood they have on the female side). As I said - they could be the living images of Queen Aemma Arryn without anyone ever mentioning this because we have no idea how Aemma Arryn looked like. Why do you think GRRM wrote all this, and with the same number as Cersei's children, without mentioning any such possibility as you give here? Quote And with the whole dragonseeds thing Marilda of Hull could also have had Valyrian ancestors She isn't said to look Valyrian, nor is her father, nor does anybody even raise it as a possibility. The appearance of the children is just attributed to their father. Quote Nettles apparently had Nettles didn't look like a dragonseed at all, and we get a completely different explanation as to how she came to ride a dragon. Quote Adopting the racist terminology of 'common appearance' doesn't reflect well on you, by the way. Are you serious? Valyrians are a fictional people whose characteristic features are rare in Westeros. Non-Valyrian features are literally common, as in most people have them, even if they are aristocrats like Harwin Strong. Quote Sorry, are you trying to tell us Alicent is warning Rhaenyra about non-existent advances? She's not warning Rhaenyra, or the quote would refer to Rhaenyra using the second rather than third person and would be specified as directed at her. She's making a dig at her rival and her rival's sworn shield, using the affection that people could see Rhaenyra had for Cole in order to do so. Quote If Cole had been publicly been 'smitten' by Rhaenyra Targaryen - then a young girl - he would have long ago been dismissed as sworn shield and might have even been executed. Which didn't happen, as he wasn't so. There are probably things he could have done which would have been remarked on even if they weren't disqualifying, but nothing like that is in the text. Quote Also, rather bad form on your part to hold children and adults to the same standards I'm looking for what evidence we have in the text to characterize these people. Quote If Cole or Selmy had made public advances towards the women they loved they would have quickly realized that this was a rather serious mistake on their part. Selmy's hypothetical involves naming Ashara Dayne as Queen of Love and Beauty at Harrenhal, which he thinks might have avoided a lot of trouble. He'd still be sworn to the KG, so it would presumably be taken as within their tradition of chivalry and chastity, if perhaps a bit gauche to honor the sibling of one of his fellow KG rather than someone he's sworn to protect within the royal family. Quote Harwin Strong she may have married ... Criston Cole not, even if he hadn't been a KG If he hadn't joined the KG, I could see her doing that for her second marriage, not giving Viserys time to object. Quote But it is clear that the Iron Throne came first and husbands and personal happiness in marriage came second for her. I think she felt entitled to the Iron Throne, which doesn't mean she always acted so as to ensure she'd keep it. Living separately from her husband invited accusations of bastardry against her children, and her second marriage to Daemon was both scandalously quick and attached her to a man so controversial he'd been placed behind her in succession. When she actually did attain King's Landing, she alienated her subjects quickly, not even being able to stay at other castles in the crownlands after the riots. Prior to those riots, while her subjects were groaning about all the taxes she was subjecting them to, she was planning a lavish party for her alleged bastard Joffrey. She was so bad at image politics that virtually every decision she made during her brief claim to rule could have been designed to show her as an unworthy ruler. Quote Daemon Targaryen had the right blood and the right manliness ... what exactly Rhaenyra's issues with Laenor were we don't know Rhaenyra herself objected to the wedding based on his sexuality! What is this "we don't know"? Quote The fact that the Princess of Dragonstone looks for manly qualities in the men surrounding her is hardly a surprise. That's what the society she lives in praises the most in men. I'm not at all saying that she's some aberrant weirdo fetishist for liking her men to be manly. I'm saying that it's a pattern that both Harwin and Cole would fit into. If Rhaenyra is just focused on proximity to the throne, Laenor is a pretty good choice, if not as good as Rhaenyra's half-brothers. Quote Mysaria is never indicated as being of low birth. She's said to be a Lysene dancer, as in it's her profession. Aristocrats don't have professions. Quote She even wears the Targaryen red-and-black when she comes to Rhaenyra to advise her on Nettles, indicating that she actually might be of a rather high birth, all things considered No it doesn't! "Bastard feudalism", which helped inspire this series, involved people wearing the "livery" indicating their lord. Mysaria was effectively the Mistress of Whisperers under Rhaenyra, she could get a cloak in Rhaenyra's preferred color. Quote All we know is that she was a dancer in her youth, no information of her ancestry is given. She doesn't have a last name. The Essosi aren't as fixated on houses as the Westerosi, but high-ranking people typically have a surname. When Daemon knocked her up, we only hear about Viserys objecting to her being given a dragon egg, not what her family thought. Quote Jeyne Poole was also 'smitten' with Beric Dondarrion - this doesn't mean they ever had an affair. She never had the opportunity to spend time with him. Would she if she could? I would say yes. Quote I could even see that having happened once or twice with nobody ever knowing it That is the rumor discussed in the main books, but it's also said to take place before he was a KG, at which point she would be too young. Quote The crucial point is that I think Rhaenyra's priority always was the Iron Throne, not a nonsensical love affair Not enough of a priority to ensure she had a child who resembled her first husband. Like Tyrion said, even one would have helped to dispel the rumors, but she was fine with people thinking the marriage had never even been consummated. Quote nor to 'I seriously consider running away with some knight when I can rule the Seven Kingdoms'. I don't think she'd ever consider that either, although Eustace thinks Cole would think that. Quote There is an explanation for the latter: Not having money means you don't get popular over night when you desperately need money to continue your war. She wasn't acting like someone doing the best she could under difficult circumstances, as she was planning that aforementioned lavish party when she was overthrown. Quote Still, we don't have an exact date for the comment, meaning we cannot pretend to know when it was made or know how bad the relationship between the two women was at that point. It's the very next sentence, and that sentence is referring to the preceding one! This is basic reading comprehension! You really have to start dismissing everything Gyldayn writes at this point. Quote Alicent's quote is an attack on Criston Cole not Rhaenyra Targaryen. She paints him as a danger, not the princess as a danger to him. As I said, kingsguard are replaceable in a way princesses aren't, so nobody cares about "danger to him". And the attack on Rhaenyra's supporter is intended to be an attack on Rhaenyra, which is made more plausible by Rhaenyra evident affection for him. Quote Considering Cole and Aemond made the Harrenhal plan together and considering Aemond kept Cole as his Hand when he could have dismissed him this is an odd claim to make. Aemond seems to have been willing to go along with one plan with Cole, but him being more concerned with glory for himself rather than the broader strategic picture is characteristic. Quote But Aemond definitely no longer had 'regent powers' after the fall of KL. Aegon II was no longer king, he and Cole were officially rebels and outlaws now, and thus Cole definitely could do with his army whatever the hell he wanted, just as Aemond could do whatever the hell he wanted with his dragon. They don't think of themselves that way, and Gyldayn doesn't write in that way. Contrast that to Tumbleton after Aemond had died and there was dispute over whether Daeron should be Prince of Dragonstone or King. You say "don't bother trying to make sense" but even if GRRM is doing a bad job of writing we can still understand what he's trying to get across. You just seem to want to refuse to. Quote There you seem to start to lose focus entirely - this is literature, not reality Indeed, which is why Cersei's three children are evidence that she's been cuckolding the king with her twin brother rather than having legitimate heirs, despite how ridiculous that would sound in reality. Rhaenyra and Harwin don't even require twincest. Quote We don't even have to turn to FaB to know he had a thing for Rhaenyra, considering it is part of the collective memory as discussed by Arianne and Arys Oakheart in AFfC that Cole had had the hots for Rhaenyra No, we don't "know" it from that, as it's given as one possible explanation vs Andal custom vs a more pliant king being suited to his ambitions. And, as I said, the form that rumor takes doesn't really seem to fit the timeline. In that quote, Cole and Rhaenyra are both lovers of each other, while when we get to the histories Eustace and Mushroom divide that concept for two contrasting one-sided overtures. Quote Nobody but Mushroom ever whisperered that Rhaenyra Targaryen had had the hots for Criston Cole In that rumor you just quoted, they are both supposed to be lovers of each other. And we've discussed how Rhaenyra is said to be smitted with Cole without having to rely on Mushroom. Quote And I daresay he did that to make fun of his audience by giving them even a more ribald story than the stuff people already believed about Cole and Rhaenyra at the time the Testimony was written. So people already believed ribald stories about Cole and Rhaenyra, but nobody whispered Rhaenyra had the hots for him? Who other than Eustace had whispered that Cole had the hots for her? Quote Then the worst thing you can do is to trample his memory to shitting on his will and defiling everything you swore to do back while he was alive. So was Jaime a better kingsguard to Robert? Quote Cole was a Kingsguard back in 105 AC, and already Rhaenyra's sworn shield. He would have been among the first to swear the vow to defend her succession and one of the first to kneel before the new Heir Apparent. Yet broke all those vows. I'll acknowledge that is true, as with Otto although Otto ironically is responsible for her being made heir in the first place. Quote That is all irrelevant since the king had made a decision. The king was dead, and he cannot make any more decisions or give any orders. The Brotherhood Without Banners still claim to be Robert's men after Joffrey came to the throne, but they are extremely unusual in the history of Westeros and initially found themselves rebels unintentionally. Quote The Hand can speak with the King's Voice, but not when the king is saying something else The King wasn't saying anything at all, because he was dead. If the king had named his horse as heir somewhat like Caligula, some people might have nodded their heads and gone along, but after his death they would ignore that. Quote She could also have ruled in favor of the daughters ... but who can demand that she had to (I'd say she should have). You seem to have even less understanding of medieval politics than Rhaenyra, as it's clearly explained why that would be a bad idea. Quote Sorry, no. Then he shouldn't have been the sworn shield of the future usurper, should have treated Aegon the Elder as the Heir Apparent throughout the reign of Viserys I, and should have openly defied his king when he named Rhaenyra his heir. Kermit Tully doesn't seem to have openly defied his king either. Defying your king isn't really in the job description of a kingsguard. And I'm sure Aerys II would have preferred for Selmy to have killed Robert after he recovered from the Trident... but then Aerys was dead, Robert was king and Selmy became his Lord Commander. Quote Possibly because they were corrupt people beholden to and chosen by Criston Cole. The king chooses his kingsguard, not the Lord Commander. Quote Why not? He would not be a Lord Commander, or a kingsguard, or even a knight of Westeros. He would lose everything he had gained, and wouldn't even be able to keep ties with his non-noble family. The Master of Laws supported Aegon II's inheritance, but no law of Westeros would permit Cole's action in that hypothetical. Quote There are no Andal succession laws binding the Iron Throne The Targaryens accepted Andal customs like the Faith of the Seven when they came to Westeros, only making an exception for their incest. They even gave up polygamy after Maegor, who is now lumped in with Rhaenyra as an example to be avoided. Their inheritance had followed male-preference primogeniture up until Rhaenyra was named, with the exception being Maegor. Quote How should I know? You said that to reject the king's designated heir is the worst thing a KG can do. Quote unless said heir agrees to give up his claim and allow a Great Council to deliberate the succession and choose who should be the next king. And if that heir doesn't accept it, is the KG obligated to fight the Council's chosen heir and everyone who voted that way? Quote If such a council were called against the wishes of the rightful heir In the hypothetical involving the king's horse, it says "neigh" to disinheritance. Quote It is narrative shortcoming of the final version of the story that we don't know why Otto and Daemon didn't get along. I do think that's a shortcoming. Quote Otto must have been a very stupid and incoherent fellow if he was so afraid of King Daemon that he had to install an Heir Apparent that wasn't Daemon or one of the sons the king might have later in life this early in the king's reign. Given what we know of Daemon later, it doesn't seem stupid at all to be scared of him. Quote I think you mean Mushroom there No, you had said Gyldayn didn't make sense when he characterized Mushroom as contradicting himself. Quote Again - why does Elaena Targaryen have that freak streak of hair? Why do Alyssa and Shiera have mismatched eyes? A de novo mutation can occur in one child, but it's very improbable to occur in all thre children from a union. Quote Why does Alysanne have common blond hair when both her parents had Valyrian hair? Blonde hair seems to be closer to Valyrian white/silver. Quote Why do strong and healthy Targaryens often (also) have physically weak and sickly children? Why does Alysanne have common blond hair when both her parents had Valyrian hair? Quote the entire Green court, Kingsguard included, used to poison Aegon II No, the Kingsguard weren't complicit. The ones who were present were deemed culpable for failing to prevent it, and Gyles Belgrave accepted death rather than going to the Night's Watch because he agreed that a KG should not outlive his king. Quote Viserys I could also have been slowly poisoned over a longer period of time, rather than just with one pinch of poison to push him over the edge. That is a good point which I hadn't considered. Quote The idea that Viserys I's health could have been public knowledge The Master of Whisperers or other members of the Small Council knowing is not the same as the public knowing. Quote I told you, the claim that he had bastards means that they were acknowledged (at least in the Mushroomverse). Nobody could know they were his if he did not say they were. No, it doesn't mean that! Mushroom never indicates that they were acknowledged, and never gives names for the bastards themselves or their mothers or the girl who was sucking Aegon off or the guttersnipes in the rat pit. Mushroom discusses unofficial gossip all the time, that's what his book is mostly known for. Quote You mean Cole's delusions about Aegon's safety, right? Alicent had actually been the one to bring up that argument earlier. Quote It is the other way around. Barth's claim about dragon sex stuff is used to justify the idea that the prince that was promised (possibly simply 'a dragon (in human form)' in the original language could also be female. Yandel cautions against taking Barth literally, saying it's metaphorical, but Aemon insists he saw the truth of it, including them actually changing sex. Quote To me the Syrax account makes pretty much no sense, considering the dragon was in KL and Byron Swann was confirmed to have been at Storm's End during the Luke affair. The Luke affair takes place prior to outright war breaking out, while this incident takes place during Rhaenyra's half-year reign, so there's enough time for him to travel. Quote How on earth is it plausible that Stormlander with close ties to Borros Baratheon is allowed into the Red Keep where Syrax was chained? How on earth is it possible for the extremely famous Barristan Selmy to evade arrest, return to the White Sword Tower and complete his entry in the White Book? Byron Swann was not famous and thus unlikely to be recognized on sight if he didn't enter the city while openly proclaiming his allegiance. We even already have an example of a knight infiltrating Rhaenyra's castle to carry out an assassination with Arryk. Gyldayn does not raise any of your objections to Mushroom's story because that doesn't seem implausible to him. Quote Both the Vhagar and the Sunfyre account make more sense, being dragons who were out in the field Sunfyre had left the area near Rook's Nest after killing three score of attackers, he presumably went to Dragonstone although hardly anybody knew even there. Vhagar was also quite dangerous and being ridden by Aemond, and thus not a good target for a single knight with a squire, even if that knight wasn't sworn to the Greens. Quote the Vhagar thing most considering that Swann would have seen Vhagar kill Arrax and Lucerys, something that could have kindled some sort of dragonslayer desire in him Why? Quote Slaying the queen's dragon in her own castle sounds and reads like a pointless suicide attempt Dragons play a big role in Targaryen legitimacy, and if successful Byron would have been immortalized in memory like Serwyn. Quote And something his squire, if present, shouldn't have survived considering they would have likely executed him as co-conspirator after the screams of Byron had woken the entire castle The squire wasn't killed by the dragon, so I'm assuming he ran away after he saw Byron get killed. Quote And if hadn't been there Gyldayn says the squire WAS there. Quote well, then he could have confused the dragon just as well as Munkun's sources allegedly did (who interviewed a lot of eye witnesses). Munkun's source is Orwyle, who was in a dungeon at the time, unlike Mushroom. The squire would also know that he was in the Red Keep rather than the Riverlands with Vhagar or Dragonstone with Sunfyre. The text gives us reasons to doubt both Munkun and Eustace while accepting Mushroom's version, but you bizarrely insist on ignoring all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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