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Jon The Dragon

Lady Stoneheart's destination

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3 hours ago, divica said:

But Jaime is working with them. Hell, him turning agains the freys would be the same as turning against his familly. Do you think he wants to put his familly in danger? To help a rebelion in the riverlands? 

Jaime despises the Freys, and his auntie is married to one. All his dealings w/ Ryman Frey show it pretty clearly. Those scenes are quite funny as well. 

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5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime despises the Freys, and his auntie is married to one. All his dealings w/ Ryman Frey show it pretty clearly. Those scenes are quite funny as well. 

He might hate and despise them, but without the freys the riverlands won t be loyal to the lannisters. He can t turn against them without risking the start of a new rebelion in the riverlands. I can t see Jaime being directly responsable for starting a war against the lannisters...

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War is already with the Lannisters, from all sides. The Freys are hated in the Riverlands more than the Lannisters I think, a lot of historical grievances etc, it makes sense to get rid of them if a way presents itself, I wonder how many Freys need to die until Edmure becomes Lord of The Crossing. It could potentially repair relationships to a certain point between Jaime and The Riverlands/The North if he did help take The Twins. If Robb was named King of The Trident there could be a behind the scenes plot between certain houses to join with the North and declare independence from Kings Landing. The Riverlands or The North does not need to attack Kings Landing, when they have so many issues to deal with there. They need to get their land in order then deal with the threat up beyond the wall.

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24 minutes ago, divica said:

He might hate and despise them, but without the freys the riverlands won t be loyal to the lannisters. He can t turn against them without risking the start of a new rebelion in the riverlands. I can t see Jaime being directly responsable for starting a war against the lannisters...

I very much disagree. See below. 

12 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

War is already with the Lannisters, from all sides. The Freys are hated in the Riverlands more than the Lannisters I think, a lot of historical grievances etc, it makes sense to get rid of them if a way presents itself, I wonder how many Freys need to die until Edmure becomes Lord of The Crossing. It could potentially repair relationships to a certain point between Jaime and The Riverlands/The North if he did help take The Twins. If Robb was named King of The Trident there could be a behind the scenes plot between certain houses to join with the North and declare independence from Kings Landing. The Riverlands or The North does not need to attack Kings Landing, when they have so many issues to deal with there. They need to get their land in order then deal with the threat up beyond the wall.

I wouldn’t call the River Lords “Lannister fanboys”, but I agree completely, they hate and despise the Freys a hell of a lot more. 

As to LSH, it’s one of the plots I’m most curious about. Maybe because I can see it going in quite a few different directions. But I still think her story will be mostly in the Riverlands, w/ maybe some stuff in the Vale. I find it unlikely for her story to take her north, and more unlikely as far north as the Wall. But I’m not married to any of these possibilities. 

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If Rickon has been found I can see LSH wanting to go North, I agree with you though, it could take so many different directions. I'd like for her to meet Howland Reed if she goes North. I'm also just assuming Brienne and Stannis cross paths again at some point, I may be wrong in that. It's nice to read different opinions.

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40 minutes ago, divica said:

He might hate and despise them, but without the freys the riverlands won t be loyal to the lannisters. He can t turn against them without risking the start of a new rebelion in the riverlands. I can t see Jaime being directly responsable for starting a war against the lannisters...

I don't know what Jaime will or won't do but the riverlands are not loyal to the Lannisters. They bent the knee because they saw no sense in continuing to fight or because their children were held hostage at the Twins. 

Jaime ordered the Freys to send the hostages to King's Landing, and the odds that they will be freed by the BwB are good, I think. So that leverage will now be gone. 

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17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I very much disagree. See below. 

 

4 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I don't know what Jaime will or won't do but the riverlands are not loyal to the Lannisters. They bent the knee because they saw no sense in continuing to fight or because their children were held hostage at the Twins. 

Jaime ordered the Freys to send the hostages to King's Landing, and the odds that they will be freed by the BwB are good, I think. So that leverage will now be gone. 

Ok. Lets see things from another perspective, If the freys are defeated what would happen in the riverlands?

They will either join the north, faegon or be bandits that act agains the crown. The freys are the only house trying to keep the riverlands loyal to the lannisters. I can t see how Jaime can agree to act against them. 

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Without hostages the Freys are vunerable and open to be attacked, I can only see the hostages being liberated en route unless they have to be collected. None of us know what direction he's going in, shows how open it's been left that there are so many theories! I can see The Twins falling pretty soon.

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

Ok. Lets see things from another perspective, If the freys are defeated what would happen in the riverlands?

They will either join the north, faegon or be bandits that act agains the crown. The freys are the only house trying to keep the riverlands loyal to the lannisters. I can t see how Jaime can agree to act against them. 

Whey! I learned how to Quote! I'd say The Lords of The Riverlands who named Robb king would want to join with The North, They'd have Greatjon Umber to build Northern relations, and would possibly rally behind LSH to go to Winterfell if Rickon was there. I really do think he will be angry if he finds out his off the cuff remark was used to pin blame on him for the Red Wedding, he will want to rectify that in my opinion.

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15 minutes ago, divica said:

Ok. Lets see things from another perspective, If the freys are defeated what would happen in the riverlands?

They will either join the north, faegon or be bandits that act agains the crown. The freys are the only house trying to keep the riverlands loyal to the lannisters. I can t see how Jaime can agree to act against them.

Jaime acting against the Freys? The second Walder Frey dies and I think he will die in the next book, the Freys will eat themselves. 

Whatever happens, though, it might end up forcing Littlefinger to come down from the Vale. He was named the Lord Paramount of the Trident. The riverlands are his responsibility. He either has to go to the riverlands or he will have to name someone to take care of things for him while he continues scheming in the Vale. Or the crown will have to strip him of the title and Harrenhal, although I think Bonifer Hasty will turn his cloak and support Aegon.

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It's really up to Brienne. At the moment, those outlaws are just going to hang Jamie as soon as they see him unless she does something to persuade them to give him a trial of sorts. Whether by combat or hearing, I feel like Greywater Watch is the place to have it. The cranogmen are definitely in cahoots with the Brotherhood and I really want to see if any of their magic is becoming more powerful. I think they may have already used it to take over the Bolton run Moat Calin while Roose is occupied with Stannis. Plus the old gods are so powerful in Greywater, maybe Bran can interfere, for good or bad. Good-influencing him to take the black, leading to him going North to become the white lion slashing through ghost grass in Dany's vision. Maybe putting Stoneheart to rest peacefully, which is for the best. If he can reach Theon, maybe he can reach her. Bad-wanting to make him suffer himself, leading them to bring him North.  Be cool if more characters went North and one thing I never want to see is Jamie return to King's Landing and reunite with Cersei. Think Bran is important for this arc. 

But for him to get a trial in the first place instead of just executing him, Brienne would need to do something more for them. Hopefully Thoros would be on board with this trial to. She could assist in freeing the Red Wedding prisoners. Ned Dayne and the other group of outlaws can be a factor in this to. Something tells me the Freys are already openly warring against one another over succession instead of just scheming and allowing outlaws to hang there own. The road to Greywater Watch might not be so tough if so.

Of course, this is still Stoneheart. She still might want to kill Jamie no matter what. It could fall to Brienne or Thoros to take her out. This could lead to a bloody battle between outlaw factions. As for Littlefinger, I'd be a little disappointed if he goes into the Riverlands. He mentioned going north at the end of AFFC. plus we've had a lot of Riverland chapters, especially in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th books. Might be time for characters to get out of there.

Brienne vs Stannis is something I don't see ever happening, especially after witnessing what revenge has done to Stoneheart. Plus he could be dead or onto other matters (trying and probably failing at destroying the Night Queen/great other) by the time she gets near Winterfell.

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11 minutes ago, divica said:

Ok. Lets see things from another perspective, If the freys are defeated what would happen in the riverlands?

It’s not a matter of if the Freys are defeated, but rather when/how they are defeated. A couple of things to consider is that the BwB has been growing stronger and stronger, and that there’s a good chance the Blackfish is working w/ them. There are signs that quite a few River Lords are as well. Should be interesting. 

11 minutes ago, divica said:

They will either join the north, faegon or be bandits that act agains the crown. The freys are the only house trying to keep the riverlands loyal to the lannisters. I can t see how Jaime can agree to act against them. 

I think Aegon, regardless of being a fake or not, will be busy farther to the south. At least initially. As to becoming “bandits”, well, as I said above, I think some (most, even?) already are. I wouldn’t call them bandits though. Rebels, even outlaws, sure. But for the most part they’re fighting the good fight IMO.

An alliance w/ the North was already in place before the RW. And both the northerners and the riverlanders were betrayed and slaughtered, and I think most river lords must have lost family. I don’t think that this alliance continuing somehow is a stretch. We also have Mormont and Glover... somewhere? GW, maybe? Or they were there and now are... elsewhere? The Neck is the natural connecting point between the Riverlands and the North. So, yeah, too much we don’t know yet, but great potential for lots of interesting stuff. 

Jaime will use the Freys while he has to, but make no mistake: he doesn’t see them as proper allies, but rather as a necessary evil - for now. 

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19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Jaime will use the Freys while he has to, but make no mistake: he doesn’t see them as proper allies, but rather as a necessary evil - for now. 

Ok... If you prefer Jaime won t help the bwb destroy the freys because that would be a disaster for his family. Unless there is another house keeping the river lands loyal to the crown it doesn t make sense for Jaime to turn against the freys. 

21 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It’s not a matter of if the Freys are defeated, but rather when/how they are defeated. A couple of things to consider is that the BwB has been growing stronger and stronger, and that there’s a good chance the Blackfish is working w/ them. There are signs that quite a few River Lords are as well. Should be interesting

Wasn t the bwb fractured because it was getting too violent for some members? I am not sure how strong it really is... 

Even the Frey defeat isn t that easy. How many men would they need to breach the twins? If it happens it must be with some ploy... And my bet is that Brienne is the one that will be involved because she is the one the bwb can actually threaten to act as they want as we saw in jaime's last chap.

And they can actually use oath keeper to make people think Brienne is working for the Lannisters...

28 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think Aegon, regardless of being a fake or not, will be busy farther to the south. At least initially. As to becoming “bandits”, well, as I said above, I think some (most, even?) already are. I wouldn’t call them bandits though. Rebels, even outlaws, sure. But for the most part they’re fighting the good fight IMO.

If he tries to attack KL he might seek an alliance with the river lands. It makes sense... 

29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

An alliance w/ the North was already in place before the RW. And both the northerners and the riverlanders were betrayed and slaughtered, and I think most river lords must have lost family. I don’t think that this alliance continuing somehow is a stretch. We also have Mormont and Glover... somewhere? GW, maybe? Or they were there and now are... elsewhere? The Neck is the natural connecting point between the Riverlands and the North. So, yeah, too much we don’t know yet, but great potential for lots of interesting stuff

Here is where I think things get interesting. The time-line in the north will have to move at lightning speed for it to catch up with the rest of westeros. 

We can clearly see that within a few chaps grrm can put faegon, Adrianne(dorne), KL, the vale and the river lands where he wants them. On the other hand a moutain of things has to happen in the north no matter who is in charge there. The north is completly unprepared to deal with the others, the wildlings or all the political changes that will probably happen in the rest of westeros... 

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2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Jaime acting against the Freys? The second Walder Frey dies and I think he will die in the next book, the Freys will eat themselves. 

Whatever happens, though, it might end up forcing Littlefinger to come down from the Vale. He was named the Lord Paramount of the Trident. The riverlands are his responsibility. He either has to go to the riverlands or he will have to name someone to take care of things for him while he continues scheming in the Vale. Or the crown will have to strip him of the title and Harrenhal, although I think Bonifer Hasty will turn his cloak and support Aegon.

If walder dies and the riverlands are in turmoil it will happen towards the middle/end of the book. 

I think LF actions will depend on what happens on other regions. If the alliance tyrell/Lannister is over at that point he certainly won't leave the vale. 

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LSH is full of hatred. One of the last things she heard before being killed at the Red Wedding was Roose Bolton, while killing Rob, saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

I forgot if she knows in the books that it was Jaime pushing Bran out of the window.

She freed Jaime making him swear:

1)  to rescue Sansa, which he definetely didn't do (he "delegated" it to Brienne).

2) Never to take up his sword again against Starks or Tullys. I mean in my eyes and in the eyes of LSH for sure he broke this oath.

 

If Brienne brings Jaime to LSH, I cannot see a way for Jaime to escape his execution.

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LSH is not in a forgiving mood.  She won't leave the river lands until every Frey and Lannister are dead.  Only then will she go after the Boltons.  Her body will not last that long though.  Unless the weather turns to freezing and then she will stop rotting away. 

I do feel bad for Catelyn.  To what she turned out.  George is really harsh on people who start wars that will not benefit the people. 

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2 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

LSH is full of hatred. One of the last things she heard before being killed at the Red Wedding was Roose Bolton, while killing Rob, saying "Jaime Lannister sends his regards."

I forgot if she knows in the books that it was Jaime pushing Bran out of the window.

She freed Jaime making him swear:

1)  to rescue Sansa, which he definetely didn't do (he "delegated" it to Brienne).

2) Never to take up his sword again against Starks or Tullys. I mean in my eyes and in the eyes of LSH for sure he broke this oath.

 

If Brienne brings Jaime to LSH, I cannot see a way for Jaime to escape his execution.

Exactly! I Don t see a way for her and Jaime to work together.

However if Jaime chooses to take the black instead of dying I Don t see her denying him. It would be spitting in every thing that means being a Stark and admiting being as bad as the Lannisters.

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If people are sure she still has enough tradition or custom in her to allow Jaime to take the black, does that not also mean she would remember her Tully words, Family, Duty, Honour. Jaime has her brother and Robb's wife hostage, this is why I don't think he will be killed any time soon. She didnt kill him before when Sansa and Arya were captive in KL. Also if Greatjon Umber is in Lannister custody then Jaime will potentially have Northern leverage too.

If she had to make the choice, would she choose enforcing Robb's will over killing Jaime? Or choose her family over his death. I think she would.

Edited by Jon The Dragon

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On 11/28/2019 at 9:23 AM, Jon The Dragon said:

Where will she end up? Stay in the Riverlands, go North, The Vale or South?

She will stay in the general vicinity of the Frey stronghold, where Robb was murdered -- and in the general vicinity of the grotesque Robb-Wind mummy.  What will she do when she finds it?

On 11/28/2019 at 9:23 AM, Jon The Dragon said:

I'd like to think she compels Jaime to use his army to ride north through the twins (maybe the threatening to kill Brienne) after he learns of 'Jaime Lannister sends his regards' remark, join's up with the Crannogmen at some point and learn about Jon, Jaime could feel like he needs to protect Rhaegar's son, Catelyn could find out her other children are alive, about Ned's honour and try to enforce Robbs will, also Brienne can potentially meet Stannis to fulfil her promise. So many potentials!

There is no reason to believe that Jaime will ever meet Stoneheart.  After UnBrienne slays him, and revives him with the kiss of fire, he will, like Beric, Stoneheart, and Brienne before him, be receiving his marching orders directly from the many-faced God of Death, as filtered through some twisted façade of his former memories and personality.

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A lot of the speculation here is based on what the reader knows, but forgetting what LS may not yet know - whether it are non RL events (like fAegon, Rickon, etc) or Jaime's intentions.

While yes, I agree that many of the hostages will be freed imo, we haven't heard of any such confirmation in Kevan's small council chapter. Surely if rebels or outlaws attacked Frey hosts or massacred the host of Jeyne and Edmure towards the Golden Tooth, some news of it would have reached KL about it. Though I hope GRRM built in a purposeful lag of news on this. The timespan seems to allow such a lag. Espcially for the host riding for the Golden Tooth and eventually CR though that would mean such an ambush was so successful that there was not one survivor and not even the House at the Golden Tooth knows of it yet.

At the time that LS captures Jaime through Brienne though, she may or may not know of a planned ambush. It all depends on whether the Blackfish communicated with Tom O' Sevenstrings before he swam away or not. It seems likely that the BF did. Tom's songs and words seems to allude he does. We can see Tom as a spy for LS and someone who knows who to talk to, in order to get word to LS ASAP. If Tom knows of it, then by the time Jaime falls into LS' hands, Jaime using Edmure and Jeyne as leverage won't help at all. If not, LS would still learn of the results faster than Kevan would.

As for Jaime's threats to Edmure.  IIRC Tom was present. If he wasn't present, he certainly learned of it from Edmure himself, once Jaime left Tom to sing for Edmure right after making the threat. So, LS for sure knows Jaime threatened to fling Edmure's child with a trebuchet.

LS doesn't seem to know much of current events North, let alone the latest. The only chain of people able to get word to LS about Rickon are the Glovers. One Glover is working together with Manderly, and knows of Davos being sent to fetch him. House Glover was freed from Asha's Ironborn hold over it, and there's a Glover with the Crannogmen, who are in contact with LS. However, it would again require some time, before the news reaches LS. The timing of events regarding the Glovers in aDwD allows for LS to learn of Rickon right about the start of tWoW.

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