Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.

[Arthur Peres]

13 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

What exactly shows to you that Jaime lacks any sense of honor? 

The way I see it, that's the whole thrust of Jaime's arc. He struggle with all the oaths he has sworn, trying to uphold all of them honorably, which he found impossible.

Everything... He is one if not the most selfish characters in the whole series.

He hasn't hold any oath he swore... he even mocked other for trying to do it... By his own words Sansa was his last chance and he  will fail at it again.

“I want none of your thanks, Kingslayer. I swore an oath to bring you safe to King’s Landing.”

“And you actually mean to keep it?” Jaime gave her his brightest smile. “Now there’s a wonder.”

[Platypus Rex]

23 hours ago, Dofs said:

The irony of you accusing me of injecting my own elements into your arguments is the fact that your whole post is based on assuming that I am hostile to Roman Catholicism and that I am claiming that Martin is also hostile to it which I am not and I never did. But if you wanted to make a solid argument that George does not vehemently hate Catholicism, you didn't have to mention Kubrick who is completely irrelevant to George, all you had to do is mention Brienne's chapters, septon Maribald and Quite Isle.

Well then, let's just say that I see no merit whatsoever to your claim that GRRM would never go where my theory pointed.  I am sorry I offended you by trying to understand how or why your argument makes any sense whatsoever.

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Now, back to my actual point, it's one thing to portray religion in a nuanced way and use it positively in some of the scenes, and completely another to make it necessary for a character to become religious (as Jaime isn't) and having him repent through the fictional version of Christianity (which it is, I am not saying that you say it, I am saying it) be his only path to redemption.

I never suggested it was necessary for Jaime to "become religious".  The most my theory suggested, and that only distantly, was that it might be necessary for him to repent, or, more precisely, that his rejection of repentance could mean a dark foreshadowing within the context of his character arc.  I also suggested that his rejection of the Seven, because they will not give him a new hand, might foreshadow an alliance with the Demon-Death-God Rh'llor, because Rh'llor will do that.  And I presented this as a bit of ironic foreshadowing, not some call by GRRM that it is necessary for all people to become religious.

And I suggested this only as one possibility of many, not the only path possible.

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Because the letter seems like what a very religious and preachy Christian would do and Martin is just isn't that. But me claiming that he isn't that doesn't mean that he hates Catholicism, as you started to claim out of nowhere. 

All I did was mention the concept of repentance, within the context of a fictional religion and its fictional gods, which comes straight from the text, and you are going off on me with a negative reaction inspired by your attitudes to a "preachy Christian".   But why are you going off on "preachy Christians"?  I never mentioned them.

My impression of your hostility to Christianity is not "out of nowhere".  It is staring me in the face right now.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

What exactly shows to you that Jaime lacks any sense of honor? 

The way I see it, that's the whole thrust of Jaime's arc. He struggle with all the oaths he has sworn, trying to uphold all of them honorably, which he found impossible.

I don't disagree with you. Jaime feels it, which makes him unlike Tywin, but consistently when his honour is pitted against another outcome he chooses the other outcome and to be perceived as the dishonourable villain. He has a sense of what honour is, he just rejects it in favour of other priorities, previously selfish priorities, these days more for the realm.

[Apoplexy]

14 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't disagree with you. Jaime feels it, which makes him unlike Tywin, but consistently when his honour is pitted against another outcome he chooses the other outcome and to be perceived as the dishonourable villain. He has a sense of what honour is, he just rejects it in favour of other priorities, previously selfish priorities, these days more for the realm.

The siege at Riverrun, he tried to break it without bloodshed because of his oath to Cat Stark. He was ready to take up arms, but only if left without another choice. That was for personal reasons which weren't selfish. He burnt Cersei's letter and followed Brienne because he wanted to be and do better. He didn't reject the right thing for other priorities there as well.

[Apoplexy]

16 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Everything... He is one if not the most selfish characters in the whole series.

He hasn't hold any oath he swore... he even mocked other for trying to do it... By his own words Sansa was his last chance and he  will fail at it again.

“I want none of your thanks, Kingslayer. I swore an oath to bring you safe to King’s Landing.”

“And you actually mean to keep it?” Jaime gave her his brightest smile. “Now there’s a wonder.”

The mocking was false bravado and cockiness. He is consciously trying to do the right thing all throughout Feast.

[Arthur Peres]

46 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The mocking was false bravado and cockiness. He is consciously trying to do the right thing all throughout Feast.

Not even close to that.

If he was trying to do the right thing he would stay on KL, help Tommen to distance from Cersei, stop the disaster that was Cersei's rule and though of the best for the realm.

Instead he choose the worst of the two words, he once again washes his hands and let Cersei destroy the realm and also broke the oath to Catelyn by pushing her family out of Riverrun and taking them on chains to CR after threatning to catapulting her nephew against the walls...

He is far from doing the right thing, during the entire of Feast he is forcing injustice on the riverlords.

[chrisdaw]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

The siege at Riverrun, he tried to break it without bloodshed because of his oath to Cat Stark.

And sacrificed his honour to do it when he threatened to murder a baby. You seem to want to conflate doing the greater good and honourable thing, but they're not the same.

[Apoplexy]

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

And sacrificed his honour to do it when he threatened to murder a baby. 

Threatening to do something does not equate doing it. Jaime knew Edmure would capitulate and he wouldn't have to carry it out. 

During that time, he has a discussion with Genna where she says he is not Tywin. I personally believe Jaime wouldn't have done it if push came to shove. He likes to think he is as cruel as Tywin, he is not.

3 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You seem to want to conflate doing the greater good and honourable thing, but they're not the same

That's not my position. My position is that Jaime not only wants to do the honorable thing, but also something that facilitates the greater good. And unsurprisingly those two things are sometimes mutually exclusive, which is why he ends up doing one or the other. Killing Aerys was dishonorable, but facilitated the greater good. Fulfilling his oath to Catelyn Stark to not take up arms against the Tullys was the honorable thing to do, but may not have facilitated the greater good had the siege gone on endlessly. 

Jaime neither lives his life in servitude to an external cause nor does he exclusively think selfishly. That makes him so compelling as a character for me. Of late, he seems to favor his personal honor. He wishes for his page in the white book to reflect positively on him. He wants to be goldenhand the just. Of course getting there is easier said than done.

[Apoplexy]

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Not even close to that.

If he was trying to do the right thing he would stay on KL, help Tommen to distance from Cersei, stop the disaster that was Cersei's rule and though of the best for the realm.

I would argue breaking the siege of riverrun was just as important as reigning in cersei. ALSo, cersei does what she wants no matter what and she was the queen, so Jaime's power over her is limited at best. Dealing with Riverrun was more productive, considering how badly the Freys were dealing with the situation.

4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Instead he choose the worst of the two words, he once again washes his hands and let Cersei destroy the realm and also broke the oath to Catelyn by pushing her family out of Riverrun and taking them on chains to CR after threatning to catapulting her nephew against the walls...

He is far from doing the right thing, during the entire of Feast he is forcing injustice on the riverlords.

His oath to catelyn stark was to not take up arms against the Tullys or Starks, which he fulfilled. And threatening to do something doesn't equate doing it. 

What should he have done with Riverrun in your opinion? If you think he should've stayed at KL, what do you think that would've achieved? Who would you suggest should've dealt with Riverrun?

[chrisdaw]

3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Threatening to do something does not equate doing it.

Threatening to murder a baby does equate to being dishonourable. Ned Stark, Arthur Dayne, etc would never have done that shit. You seem to want to disagree without being able to articulate something you disagree with. Yes Jaime would like to be honourable and well remembered, that's why it is a genuine heartfelt and painful sacrifice every time he foregoes these personal desires for a greater good. That is his lot, his role, his destiny and his arc, what will be left to him, as the Riverland chapters demonstrate, is the simple satisfaction that comes with having served (the realm) well.

[kissdbyfire]

21 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Threatening to murder a baby does equate to being dishonourable.

No, it doesn’t. Dishonourable would have been to take up arms against the Tullys (or Starks), which he didn’t do. He used a subterfuge, and it worked. Good on him. 

21 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Ned Stark, Arthur Dayne, etc would never have done that shit. 

So? Different people deal differently w/ different situations. Meaning, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

[chrisdaw]

55 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, it doesn’t. Dishonourable would have been to take up arms against the Tullys (or Starks), which he didn’t do. He used a subterfuge, and it worked. Good on him.

Yes it does.

56 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

So? Different people deal differently w/ different situations. Meaning, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

So they wouldn't do it because it'd be dishonourable. Forcing himself to smile, let them all hear it, it makes no difference, Tywin's theme song to see him out. Very straight-forward. 

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Threatening to murder a baby does equate to being dishonourable.

No it doesn't. Not one bit unless you did it just to be cruel, which Jaime certainly did not.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Ned Stark, Arthur Dayne, etc would never have done that shit.

By definition Jaime Lannister isn't either of those two people and Ned Stark and Arthur Dayne not have monopoly on honorable behavior.

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

You seem to want to disagree without being able to articulate something you disagree with.

You said Jaime's destiny is servitude, I told you why I feel it is not. 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

My position is that Jaime not only wants to do the honorable thing, but also something that facilitates the greater good. And unsurprisingly those two things are sometimes mutually exclusive, which is why he ends up doing one or the other. Killing Aerys was dishonorable, but facilitated the greater good. Fulfilling his oath to Catelyn Stark to not take up arms against the Tullys was the honorable thing to do, but may not have facilitated the greater good had the siege gone on endlessly. 

Jaime neither lives his life in servitude to an external cause nor does he exclusively think selfishly.

 

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes Jaime would like to be honourable and well remembered, that's why it is a genuine heartfelt and painful sacrifice every time he foregoes these personal desires for a greater good. That is his lot, his role, his destiny and his arc, what will be left to him, as the Riverland chapters demonstrate, is the simple satisfaction that comes with having served (the realm) well.

Except he fulfilled his oath to Catelyn Stark in this instance, along with serving the realm.

He severs his ties from Cersei, which has nothing to do with the realm. And he follows Brienne right after the siege, again for personal reasons, not in servitude to anyone.

[Apoplexy]

3 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes it does.

We disagree completely here.

4 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

So they wouldn't do it because it'd be dishonourable. Forcing himself to smile, let them all hear it, it makes no difference, Tywin's theme song to see him out. Very straight-forward.

To be fair, Ned lied about Jon's heritage, so we really don't know if Ned would have done it or not. Ned isnt above lying if it comes to it. Jaime essentially lied about hurting a baby.

[chrisdaw]

3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

No it doesn't. Not one bit unless you did it just to be cruel, which Jaime certainly did not.

Ok, I've no interest in arguing against trying to paint threatening to murder an enemy's baby as an honourable action.

[Apoplexy]

9 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Ok, I've no interest in arguing against trying to paint threatening to murder an enemy's baby as an honourable action.

I didn't it say it was necessarily honorable. I said it wasn't dishonorable. 

Feel free to come back to argue anytime, if you wish it. I'll be here.

[kissdbyfire]

52 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes it does.

No, it doesn’t. I can keep at it all day long as well. 

2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

You seem to want to disagree without being able to articulate something you disagree with

Also, I make mine your words. 

[kissdbyfire]

49 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

To be fair, Ned lied about Jon's heritage, so we really don't know if Ned would have done it or not. Ned isnt above lying if it comes to it. Jaime essentially lied about hurting a baby.

And more:

We all lie,” her father said. “Or did you truly think I’d believe that Nymeria ran off?” Arya blushed guiltily. “Jory promised not to tell.” “Jory kept his word,” her father said with a smile. “There are some things I do not need to be told. Even a blind man could see that wolf would never have left you willingly.” “We had to throw rocks,” she said miserably. “I told her to run, to go be free, that I didn’t want her anymore. There were other wolves for her to play with, we heard them howling, and Jory said the woods were full of game, so she’d have deer to hunt. Only she kept following, and finally we had to throw rocks. I hit her twice. She whined and looked at me and I felt so ‘shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.” “It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was... not without honor.”

[Arthur Peres]

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I would argue breaking the siege of riverrun was just as important as reigning in cersei. ALSo, cersei does what she wants no matter what and she was the queen, so Jaime's power over her is limited at best. Dealing with Riverrun was more productive, considering how badly the Freys were dealing with the situation.

His oath to catelyn stark was to not take up arms against the Tullys or Starks, which he fulfilled. And threatening to do something doesn't equate doing it. 

What should he have done with Riverrun in your opinion? If you think he should've stayed at KL, what do you think that would've achieved? Who would you suggest should've dealt with Riverrun?

And I disagree, Riverrun was guarded by a few hundreads was not a existencial threat. The castle was already under siege by the Freys and Daven Lannister. Cersei offered Jaime the position of Hand, he would have a lot of power to act and his closiness with Cersei would allow him to stop her worst's impulses. 

Jaime is not on a redemption arc, Lancel was and Jaime mocked him for it.

Jaime broke the oath to Catelyn the moment he took charge of leading the siege. He used a hostage as a threat to push her family out of Riverrun, this is taking arms against the Tullys, he can't go around oaths trying to find legal breachs to make his case, his mental gynastics to justify himself are laughable at best and tragical at worst, or do you think Catelyn would see his actions as honorable ? And in the end even this was breaked as he send his men to kill  or capture the Blackfish.

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Threatening to murder a baby does equate to being dishonourable. 

Yes.  And even if he does not do it, the threat is meant to be believed.  Which effects his "honor", at the very least.