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Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.


chrisdaw

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48 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Why would he lie to brienne at harrenhal? he hadn't talked about it to anyone before. What would he gain?

ALso, it wasn't a given that he would get away. BArristan selmy wanted him sent to the wall for it.

Because he would looked like the misunderstood hero.

No, it wasn't, Jaime didn't want to get caught he was just busted red handed.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 He did love Cersei. It wasn't a whim or just something he felt like doing.

Never said he didn't, just that he didn't care about his celibacy vows, just as he didn't care about him being a KG when he wanted Cersei to come clean just as he didn't care about his vows when he said Tywin no or like he didn't care about his oath when he sent men after Brynden, it's just always about what he wants and  how he feels in the moment, which is pretty much a whim, now he wants to be Goldenhand, now he wants to be Tywin, now he wants to become a modelic  KG now he wants marry Cersei and to hell with everyone...

 

 

55 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I disagree. He meant to stay with cersei. But the situation became untenable. Their relationship turned really bad.

His pride do you mean??

 

 

56 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If you read that chapter again, Jaime specifically asks the Blackfish to release him from his oath. If he wins, he gets riverrun, if the blackfish kills him, the siege is lifted. It is the blackfish who doesn't agree to this.

This was extremely stupid on Jaime's part, but not cowardly.

Yeah i did read it and  if you read the chapater again, Jaime was hiding again and  again behind said vow and  only did it when it was clear that the Blackfish wouldn't oblige but at the end of the day, he did send men after him, did he así Edmure to release him from his vía then??

 

 

58 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Then you and I have very different readings of Jaime's character. I don't believe he wouldve done it.

Are you telling me that Jaime hadnt shown willingness to kill children before?? The idea that he wouldn't have done should come from something better than him wanting to be Goldenhand for a day.

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On 12/2/2019 at 3:14 AM, Platypus Rex said:

Well then, let's just say that I see no merit whatsoever to your claim that GRRM would never go where my theory pointed.  I am sorry I offended you by trying to understand how or why your argument makes any sense whatsoever.

I implied I don't believe he would go there based on George's words and Jaime's current arc in the books, it's pretty simple really, nothing much to understand, if you actually do try. And there is no need to be emotional about it.

On 12/2/2019 at 3:14 AM, Platypus Rex said:

I never suggested it was necessary for Jaime to "become religious".  The most my theory suggested, and that only distantly, was that it might be necessary for him to repent, or, more precisely, that his rejection of repentance could mean a dark foreshadowing within the context of his character arc.  I also suggested that his rejection of the Seven, because they will not give him a new hand, might foreshadow an alliance with the Demon-Death-God Rh'llor, because Rh'llor will do that.  And I presented this as a bit of ironic foreshadowing, not some call by GRRM that it is necessary for all people to become religious.

Yes, you were suggesting that it was necessary for Jaime to become religious. Because everything that you think Jaime should have done, like repenting in front of the Seven obligates for Jaime to become religious. Like, he can't be repenting in front of them if he doesn't much believe in them in the first place. That foreshadowing would only work if Jaime had a simple choice of two equal options: to repent or reject repentance and he chose the letter. But it wasn't a choice of equal options, in order to choose the former Jaime would have to do something out of character for him - start treating the Seven seriously, or in other words, become religious indeed. So the foreshadowing simply doesn't work in this instance. It wasn't just a choice for Jaime to repent or not to repent. If it was, then indeed Martin would be implying that you have to become religious in order to achieve redemption. 

On 12/2/2019 at 3:14 AM, Platypus Rex said:

All I did was mention the concept of repentance, within the context of a fictional religion and its fictional gods, which comes straight from the text, and you are going off on me with a negative reaction inspired by your attitudes to a "preachy Christian".   But why are you going off on "preachy Christians"?  I never mentioned them.

My impression of your hostility to Christianity is not "out of nowhere".  It is staring me in the face right now.

I am sorry that you had such an impression, but you shouldn't be so paranoid about people talking about Christianity. It makes people not take you seriously.

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3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't like to be noble action police. Plus, I'm not arguing that Jaime is the most noble character in the books.

But I like to make it clear what would be real noble actions and what aren't such. And killing Aerys II was just murder.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't blame Jaime for wanting to scare and intimidate aerys. He was horrible and deserved it.

Again, you show you have the same moral compass as Jaime. Would you also treat a real world paranoid schizophrenic like that? Aerys II did horrible things but he has an excuse - Jaime doesn't. He qualifies as a sane person.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

No, he specifically thinks about whether it would be better for myrcella to have a father or the crown.

But he has made the decision to tell them already. It is quite clear that any child of Jaime's would prefer Robert and legitimacy to Jaime, bastardy, and abomination.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

While the relationship may have started out as love (which I would argue against), there was almost only bitterness left there towards the end. Again, love is extremely subjective and not alwAys rational for most humans.

As things stand you can just as well argue that bachelors are married. Jaime and Cersei were in love and still are in love even if that love is expressed now differently. In fact, aside from being a romantic love Cersei and Jaime also happen to be twin siblings. They have a bond that goes beyond fleeting romance and sexual attraction - and they both express that repeatedly. They see each other as their respective other half. They might also end up hating each other but they will never stop loving each other, either.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

No, I mean giving up on a having a wife/domestic partner. Jaime seems to favor monogamy, so for him, imo, giving that up was harder than avoiding sleeping with other people. And he gave it up for cersei.

Jaime never wanted any other wife but Cersei. That started when they were six years old, possibly even before that. He never expressed any desire to have a wife that wasn't Cersei or children not born by Cersei. He gave up Casterly Rock for a white cloak and Cersei, but there is no indication he ever gave a fig about having a family with a woman who was not Cersei.

In fact, Jaime is very much like his father or the Targaryens. Tywin married his first cousin but for Jaime only his sister was good enough. Not other woman but his sister could ever get his juices going.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

You're right, we don't know. I hope he wants to end things. Just punishing her is destructive and does no good for anyone. They would both be better off away from each other.

Again, they would be a very loving couple and loving parents if they had been able to be together openly, marry each other, and have legitimate children of their own.

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Maybe. But cersei wanted to be queen more than be with Jaime openly. I don't judge her for that, but it's safe to say she had other priorities. Jaime was never in too of that list for her. Cersei however was on top of Jaime's list of priorities.

Cersei was fed the idea that she would be queen one day by her father. This was not her idea. Her marriage with Rhaegar fell through when she was ten. And it was neither her wish nor really her decision to marry Robert.

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32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But I like to make it clear what would be real noble actions and what aren't such. And killing Aerys II was just murder.

We disagree.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, you show you have the same moral compass as Jaime. Would you also treat a real world paranoid schizophrenic like that? Aerys II did horrible things but he has an excuse - Jaime doesn't. He qualifies as a sane person.

Do we know whether Aerys was a paranoid schizophrenic?

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But he has made the decision to tell them already. It is quite clear that any child of Jaime's would prefer Robert and legitimacy to Jaime, bastardy, and abomination.

Be that as it may, you cannot say then that Jaime only thinks about himself when making that decision. You may say he's wrong, not selfish.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As things stand you can just as well argue that bachelors are married. Jaime and Cersei were in love and still are in love even if that love is expressed now differently. In fact, aside from being a romantic love Cersei and Jaime also happen to be twin siblings. They have a bond that goes beyond fleeting romance and sexual attraction - and they both express that repeatedly. They see each other as their respective other half. They might also end up hating each other but they will never stop loving each other, either.

As I've said, even if they love each other (I disagree if cersei ever truly loved Jaime), love isn't enough by itself. As things stand right now, there is much more bitterness between them than love. If Jaime finds the cheating so wrong, I doubt he loves her now.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime never wanted any other wife but Cersei. That started when they were six years old, possibly even before that. He never expressed any desire to have a wife that wasn't Cersei or children not born by Cersei. He gave up Casterly Rock for a white cloak and Cersei, but there is no indication he ever gave a fig about having a family with a woman who was not Cersei.

In fact, Jaime is very much like his father or the Targaryens. Tywin married his first cousin but for Jaime only his sister was good enough. Not other woman but his sister could ever get his juices going.

I'm not saying he gave up having another wife, he gave up on having Cersei as a wife/ domestic partner.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Again, they would be a very loving couple and loving parents if they had been able to be together openly, marry each other, and have legitimate children of their own.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Cersei is too selfish for that to happen.

32 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei was fed the idea that she would be queen one day by her father. This was not her idea. Her marriage with Rhaegar fell through when she was ten. And it was neither her wish nor really her decision to marry Robert.

I disagree this was all tywin's fault. Some of it was on tywin, making her think she would marry the prince. But part of it was cersei's nature. She 's just selfish. She wants to have everything for herself, to toy with. She wants to be queen but also wants Jaime. Plus, she doesnt want Jaime to have anyone else. She convinced hi m to join the KG.

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Because he would looked like the misunderstood hero.

No, it wasn't, Jaime didn't want to get caught he was just busted red handed.

What good would it do to look like the misunderstood to one person?

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Never said he didn't, just that he didn't care about his celibacy vows, just as he didn't care about him being a KG when he wanted Cersei to come clean just as he didn't care about his vows when he said Tywin no or like he didn't care about his oath when he sent men after Brynden, it's just always about what he wants and  how he feels in the moment, which is pretty much a whim, now he wants to be Goldenhand, now he wants to be Tywin, now he wants to become a modelic  KG now he wants marry Cersei and to hell with everyone...

I agree, he didn't care about celibacy vows. He joined the KG to be with cersei. It was wrong, but people do stupid things for love. And I applaud him for wanting to marry cersei. My issue is she doesn't deserve him.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

His pride do you mean??

His pride as well. I don't see a point in staying with someone who wounds your pride without remorse.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Yeah i did read it and  if you read the chapater again, Jaime was hiding again and  again behind said vow and  only did it when it was clear that the Blackfish wouldn't oblige but at the end of the day, he did send men after him, did he así Edmure to release him from his vía then??

Did he send his men to kill him?

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Are you telling me that Jaime hadnt shown willingness to kill children before?? The idea that he wouldn't have done should come from something better than him wanting to be Goldenhand for a day.

I am telling you Jaime hadn't shown willingness to kill edmure's child. YEs, he tried to kill bran, but Cersei and his children's lives were on the line. Doesn't justify his actions, but it tells me he doesn't kill children for the heck of it.

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10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I am telling you Jaime hadn't shown willingness to kill edmure's child. YEs, he tried to kill bran, but Cersei and his children's lives were on the line. Doesn't justify his actions, but it tells me he doesn't kill children for the heck of it.

Jaime doesn't care about the lives of Cersei's children, and he never though about them in any of his decision as he himself says:

“Ser Stafford Lannister was slain at Oxcross, I am told.”

Jaime was unmoved. “Uncle Dolt, my sister called him. It’s Cersei and Tyrion who concern me. As well as my lord father.”

About Joffrey we have this:

A squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt, and he deserved to die.

Jaime sat silent through it all, letting the words wash over him, a horn of ale forgotten in his one good hand.Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son . He tried to bring the boy’s face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei’s

He was curiously calm. Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots, to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. So why was it that he felt so little?

And now he’s dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose.

and then this:

“You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?”

Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt. And because he deserved to die. “I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?”

And about Tommen we have this:

“He is your son . . . ”

“He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.”

You give too much credit that not even Jaime makes for himself.... even among the people he claimed to love he was incapable of showing grief to his father.

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25 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

What good would it do to look like the misunderstood to one person?

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Satisfying his ego?? Having Brienne to stop bitching?? I'd honestly make anything for her to shut up too.

 

27 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree, he didn't care about celibacy vows. He joined the KG to be with cersei. It was wrong, but people do stupid things for love. And I applaud him for wanting to marry cersei. My issue is she doesn't deserve him.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Do you applaud him?? Where was he thinking his so called conflicting oaths would go then??

 

 

28 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

His pride as well. I don't see a point in staying with someone who wounds your pride without remorse.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

That was the only thing she hurt, imean he could've forgive or not, he could've talk or not, or he could've run away to another session of self pitying.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Did he send his men to kill him?

3 hours ago, frenin said:

See when i say that there is only loohles?? What do you think those men are going to do exactly?? How do you think those men are going ti convince him to become a prisoner.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I am telling you Jaime hadn't shown willingness to kill edmure's child. YEs, he tried to kill bran, but Cersei and his children's lives were on the line. Doesn't justify his actions, but it tells me he doesn't kill children for the heck of it.

Nor do i say that he would kill children for the heck of it, he would kill children to get what he wants, either not getting he and his family death, making Cersei happy or proving a point.

I told you, the man was fine about doing it before, wasn't bluffing then, the idea that he wouldn't have done it comes from the fact that we want to believe it. 

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5 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime doesn't care about the lives of Cersei's children, and he never though about them in any of his decision as he himself says:

“Ser Stafford Lannister was slain at Oxcross, I am told.”

Jaime was unmoved. “Uncle Dolt, my sister called him. It’s Cersei and Tyrion who concern me. As well as my lord father.”

About Joffrey we have this:

A squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt, and he deserved to die.

Jaime sat silent through it all, letting the words wash over him, a horn of ale forgotten in his one good hand.Joffrey. My blood. My firstborn. My son . He tried to bring the boy’s face to mind, but his features kept turning into Cersei’s

He was curiously calm. Men were supposed to go mad with grief when their children died, he knew. They were supposed to tear their hair out by the roots, to curse the gods and swear red vengeance. So why was it that he felt so little?

And now he’s dead. He pictured Joff lying still and cold with a face black from poison, and still felt nothing. Perhaps he was the monster they claimed. If the Father Above came down to offer him back his son or his hand, Jaime knew which he would choose.

and then this:

“You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?”

Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt. And because he deserved to die. “I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?”

And about Tommen we have this:

“He is your son . . . ”

“He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.”

You give too much credit that not even Jaime makes for himself.... even among the people he claimed to love he was incapable of showing grief to his father.

You do realize Jaime was angry/ distraught during all these quotes. People say things they don't mean.

For joeffrey: he probably didn't care much for him. And Jaime said he deserved to die. That doesn't mean Jaime wouldn't try to save him, if he could. He just won't exact revenge on Sansa for killing him.

for tommen: he is actively angry at Cersei for never allowing him to be a father to tommen. Doesn't mean he would nt try to save him from death of he could.

for myrcella: he is deliberating whether he will tell her about her heritage.

 

I'm not saying Jaime's the ideal father. But he would certainly try to save his family, even if it meant killing a child. Edmure's child wasn't a threat to anyone.

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4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

You do realize Jaime was angry/ distraught during all these quotes. People say things they don't mean.

 For joeffrey: he probably didn't care much for him. And Jaime said he deserved to die. That doesn't mean Jaime wouldn't try to save him, if he could. He just won't exact revenge on Sansa for killing him.

 for tommen: he is actively angry at Cersei for never allowing him to be a father to tommen. Doesn't mean he would nt try to save him from death of he could.

 for myrcella: he is deliberating whether he will tell her about her heritage.

  

I'm not saying Jaime's the ideal father. But he would certainly try to save his family, even if it meant killing a child. Edmure's child wasn't a threat to anyone.

Jaime couldn't make his case to even Cersei:

I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . . ”

“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.

Stop trying to justifie his actions they are not justifiable.

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3 minutes ago, frenin said:

Satisfying his ego?? Having Brienne to stop bitching?? I'd honestly make anything for her to shut up too.

Jaime likes brienne, romantically in my opinion, but that's open for debate. He wouldn't want to shut her up. There is every reason to believe he was being truthful at harrenhal.

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Do you applaud him?? Where was he thinking his so called conflicting oaths would go then??

Here he was trying to uphold the commitment he made to cersei.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

That was the only thing she hurt, imean he could've forgive or not, he could've talk or not, or he could've run away to another session of self pitying.

I would argue she broke his trust too. 

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

See when i say that there is only loohles?? What do you think those men are going to do exactly?? How do you think those men are going ti convince him to become a prisoner.

So riverrun has fallen. What would you suggest Jaime should have done about the blackfish?

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Nor do i say that he would kill children for the heck of it, he would kill children to get what he wants, either not getting he and his family death, making Cersei happy or proving a point.

I told you, the man was fine about doing it before, wasn't bluffing then, the idea that he wouldn't have done it comes from the fact that we want to believe it. 

We disagree.

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Just now, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime couldn't make his case to even Cersei:

I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . . ”

“Did I tell you to throw him out the window? If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.

Stop trying to justifie his actions they are not justifiable.

I'm not justifying his actions. They were horrible. But he did them to protect his family. Not for cruelty

Jaime wasn't ashamed of protecting his family, only about hiding his behavior. That's a principled stand, to a small extent.

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2 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I'm not justifying his actions. They were horrible. But he did them to protect his family. Not for cruelty

 Jaime wasn't ashamed of protecting his family, only about hiding his behavior. That's a principled stand, to a small extent.

He did it to protect himself, he never cared about the kids as I have already show and even Cersei condem his actions.

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5 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime likes brienne, romantically in my opinion, but that's open for debate. He wouldn't want to shut her up. There is every reason to believe he was being truthful at harrenhal.

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except that we know he was rose tinting things and whatever you think Jaime feels for Brienne, by that point was only antipathy.

 

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Here he was trying to uphold the commitment he made to cersei.

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

What commitment that he'd ever loved her?? Why there is always an oath to hide behind, couldn't he fullfill that commitment without everything he does??

 

8 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I would argue she broke his trust too. 

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

Until he finds out the truth but for weeks that's just Tyrion's words that he didn't even believe but guide his actions anyway.

 

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

So riverrun has fallen. What would you suggest Jaime should have done about the blackfish?

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

I didn't say that not going after him is a bad idea, i'm saying that the "i swore an oath" excuse is incredibly weak if Jaime just does whatever he feels like doing.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree.

Was he bluffing then?? Wouldn't have he killed Arya just for keeping Cersei content?? Is there a reason to doubt of his inner thoughts and words?? 

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11 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

He did it to protect himself, he never cared about the kids as I have already show and even Cersei condem his actions.

He specifically said he pushed bran out the window because he loved Cersei. Jaime does care about myrcella. I would say tommen as well.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree.

This is no disagreement. It was murder, that's just a fact.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Do we know whether Aerys was a paranoid schizophrenic?

He has some of those symptoms - even if he was suffering from some other fantasy mental illness he clearly was sick and should have been treated for that instead of being murdered.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Be that as it may, you cannot say then that Jaime only thinks about himself when making that decision. You may say he's wrong, not selfish.

He thinks about how Myrcelle will feel in relation to decision he has already made. He does not intend to leave it to her and Tommen whether the world would learn the truth or not. That's his call.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

As I've said, even if they love each other (I disagree if cersei ever truly loved Jaime), love isn't enough by itself. As things stand right now, there is much more bitterness between them than love. If Jaime finds the cheating so wrong, I doubt he loves her now.

Your private definition of love is irrelevant to the topic at hand. We do have factual descriptions of the feelings of those people and they all prove they are in love.

It is also completely wrong on your part to assume that people who are jealous (which Jaime clearly is in AFfC and ADwD) cannot also be in love.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I'm not saying he gave up having another wife, he gave up on having Cersei as a wife/ domestic partner.

That's not what you said. You spoke about domestic life in general, not specifically with Cersei. We know he joined the KG for Cersei, but whether he had any intention of marrying her back then we don't know at that point. Might be that his desire to marry her came much later, after he returned lacking a hand. There is no indication he bothered Cersei with plans like that earlier. If he had been serious about any of that they could have run away together at the age of fifteen.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I wholeheartedly disagree. Cersei is too selfish for that to happen.

There is no basis for this because there is no basis to properly assess Cersei's character in a scenario where she was married to Jaime happily and with the blessing of all of Westeros at the age of, say, fifteen.

Sure, Cersei has her dark traits as does self-involved, narcissistic Jaime, but neither of them would have ruined the life or the other or been a miserable parent if they had gotten what they wanted all the time - which they would have if they ruled the West as Lord and Lady of Casterly Rock after Tywin's death.

The idea to pretend the AFfC-Cersei (or even the AGoT-Cersei) would be the same as a Cersei who was happily married to Jaime for nearly twenty years makes no sense.

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I disagree this was all tywin's fault. Some of it was on tywin, making her think she would marry the prince. But part of it was cersei's nature. She 's just selfish. She wants to have everything for herself, to toy with. She wants to be queen but also wants Jaime. Plus, she doesnt want Jaime to have anyone else. She convinced hi m to join the KG.

Cersei is merely more dutiful than Jaime. She knows her role in the dynastic game and accepted that. Jaime did not. Both of them definitely are also jealous, but it is ridiculous to assume Cersei ever 'loved' Rhaegar. She barely met the man and was ten years old when the marriage fell through. She loved him as much as Sansa loved Loras or Joffrey, or as much as Jeyne loved Beric Dondarrion. Not to mention that this was at a time when she and Jaime didn't yet have a proper romantic or sexual relationship.

It is also quite clear that the incest love thing would cause friction and jealousy if the lovers cannot possibly marry each other.

Jaime had ways to avoid being forced into a marriage. Cersei did not. But that's not her fault.

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45 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except that we know he was rose tinting things and whatever you think Jaime feels for Brienne, by that point was only antipathy.

If so, why try to sound like a misunderstood hero for her then? She wouldn't believe him. 

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

What commitment that he'd ever loved her?? Why there is always an oath to hide behind, couldn't he fullfill that commitment without everything he does??

I don't know what you mean. Please elaborate.

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

Until he finds out the truth but for weeks that's just Tyrion's words that he didn't even believe but guide his actions anyway.

Yes, he believed tyrion's words. Why would he not?

49 minutes ago, frenin said:

I didn't say that not going after him is a bad idea, i'm saying that the "i swore an oath" excuse is incredibly weak if Jaime just does whatever he feels like doing.

Explain this in context to the blackfish. I don't understand what your point is.

50 minutes ago, frenin said:

Was he bluffing then?? Wouldn't have he killed Arya just for keeping Cersei content?? Is there a reason to doubt of his inner thoughts and words?? 

Yes, he was bluffing. I don't think he would've killed arya. Because Jaime was never cruel for the sake of cruelty.

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6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 If so, why try to sound like a misunderstood hero for her then? She wouldn't believe him. 

I told you my theory.

 

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't know what you mean. Please elaborate.

Every bad action Jaime takes, you excuse it because an oath Jaime didn't even care or put to action until it suited  him or after one of his whims.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Yes, he believed tyrion's words. Why would he not?

Because he didn't, he wasn't sure, then tphe outright thinks Tyrion lied to him and  only after Lancel comes clean he believes.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Explain this in context to the blackfish. I don't understand what your point is.

He wanted to capture Blackfish, so his oath stopped mattering.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Yes, he was bluffing. I don't think he would've killed arya. Because Jaime was never cruel for the sake of cruelty.

A weird way of bluffing, when you totally mean your thoughts have Jaime.

Jaime wouldn't have killed Arya because he wanted her dead, he would kill her because Cersei wanted her dead.

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I'm not saying it wasn't murder. I'm saying I don't blame Jaime for this particular murder.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He has some of those symptoms - even if he was suffering from some other fantasy mental illness he clearly was sick and should have been treated for that instead of being murdered.

That's my point, aerys not have been treated even if Jaime didn't kill him. He would've been killed regardless, since people don't understand mental illness in that universe. So it didn't matter who did it.I

Plus, I can't say he was mentally ill, since I cannot make that determination without examining him. Which is impossible.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He thinks about how Myrcelle will feel in relation to decision he has already made. He does not intend to leave it to her and Tommen whether the world would learn the truth or not. That's his call.

How can he leave the call to the children? Can they decide if Jaime tells them the truth about their heritage. If you are saying that Jaime has decided to make it public without asking the children, he hasnt. He has only decided to tell them.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Your private definition of love is irrelevant to the topic at hand. We do have factual descriptions of the feelings of those people and they all prove they are in love.

It is also completely wrong on your part to assume that people who are jealous (which Jaime clearly is in AFfC and ADwD) cannot also be in love.

Your definition of love is irrelevant as well. There is no universal definition of love. Which is why I've said before, this is a subjective issue.

I'm not saying jealous people cannot be in love. I'm talking about Jaime specifically. I'm saying he likely doesn't love Cersei after being betrayed by her.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That's not what you said. You spoke about domestic life in general, not specifically with Cersei. We know he joined the KG for Cersei, but whether he had any intention of marrying her back then we don't know at that point. Might be that his desire to marry her came much later, after he returned lacking a hand. There is no indication he bothered Cersei with plans like that earlier. If he had been serious about any of that they could have run away together at the age of fifteen.

I'm clarifying now. I just didn't say it clear enough the last time. We don't know if he wanted to marry her then. But he definitely wanted her as a domestic partner. Only Cersei wanted to be queen, which Jaime couldn't make her.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no basis for this because there is no basis to properly assess Cersei's character in a scenario where she was married to Jaime happily and with the blessing of all of Westeros at the age of, say, fifteen.

I base this on the fact that Cersei is selfish, and wants power, which Jaime couldn't give her. Feel free to disagree. There is no way to settle this since it didn't happen. 

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, Cersei has her dark traits as does self-involved, narcissistic Jaime, but neither of them would have ruined the life or the other or been a miserable parent if they had gotten what they wanted all the time - which they would have if they ruled the West as Lord and Lady of Casterly Rock after Tywin's death.

The idea to pretend the AFfC-Cersei (or even the AGoT-Cersei) would be the same as a Cersei who was happily married to Jaime for nearly twenty years makes no sense.

I disagree because I don't believe cersei woulve married Jaime if she could. She wanted power, which Jaime could never give her.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei is merely more dutiful than Jaime. She knows her role in the dynastic game and accepted that. Jaime did not. Both of them definitely are also jealous, but it is ridiculous to assume Cersei ever 'loved' Rhaegar. She barely met the man and was ten years old when the marriage fell through. She loved him as much as Sansa loved Loras or Joffrey, or as much as Jeyne loved Beric Dondarrion. Not to mention that this was at a time when she and Jaime didn't yet have a proper romantic or sexual relationship.

I'm not saying Cersei loved rhaegar. She just wanted to use him to get power and fame.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is also quite clear that the incest love thing would cause friction and jealousy if the lovers cannot possibly marry each other.

Jaime had ways to avoid being forced into a marriage. Cersei did not. But that's not her fault.

And except Cersei didn't want to avoid marriage then. She wanted to marry to gain power. 

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21 minutes ago, frenin said:

I told you my theory.

I know your theory, I just find it hard to believe that Jaime was being that manipulative in his weakened state. I just don't buy your theory.

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Every bad action Jaime takes, you excuse it because an oath Jaime didn't even care or put to action until it suited  him or after one of his whims.

I don't understand, are you saying it's a bad thing that Jaime wanted to marry and acknowledge his children? Or are you saying it suits Jaime to do that now. If yes, how so?

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Because he didn't, he wasn't sure, then tphe outright thinks Tyrion lied to him and  only after Lancel comes clean he believes.

Had Jaime not believed Tyrion, he wouldn't have confronted Lancel. Tyrion had made him doubt cersei' s fidelity.

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He wanted to capture Blackfish, so his oath stopped mattering.

So you're saying only if Jaime had let the blackfish go free would he uphold his oath to catelyn?

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A weird way of bluffing, when you totally mean your thoughts have Jaime.

Jaime wouldn't have killed Arya because he wanted her dead, he would kill her because Cersei wanted her dead.

I disagree he would've killed arya. If push came to shove, Jaime wouldn't do it.

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6 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I know your theory, I just find it hard to believe that Jaime was being that manipulative in his weakened state. I just don't buy your theory.

You're free to believe it or not, but we do know Jaime was rose tinting things there.

 

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't understand, are you saying it's a bad thing that Jaime wanted to marry and acknowledge his children? Or are you saying it suits Jaime to do that now. If yes, how so?

If that means their de facto death is a pretty bad thing, it doesn't suit  Jaime, it's just a whim Jaime has, without stopping to realize  or caring too much about the repercusions, if his idea is just repeat but Targs, he'd end up like Aenys.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Had Jaime not believed Tyrion, he wouldn't have confronted Lancel. Tyrion had made him doubt cersei' s fidelity.

He went there to put some sense in Lancel, he didn't believe Tyrion words  until Lancel confessed.

 

15 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

So you're saying only if Jaime had let the blackfish go free would he uphold his oath to catelyn?

No, since Jaime had already broken that oath,  the Blackfish is just the non excusable example.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I disagree he would've killed arya. If push came to shove, Jaime wouldn't do it.

Ofc, because pre maimed Jaime had a thoroughly conscious...

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