Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Ok, that's part of the definition, in my opinion. But let's go with this part.

what about Jaime's behavior tells you he admires himself too much? He has a sense of entitlement, but that's not the same as thinking too much oneself. Jaime sometimes references 'lions not caring about the opinion of sheep', but that's not because he thinks too much of himself, he just doesn't care what others have to say about him. He is constantly questioning himself, his oaths, his behavior.

What tells you Jaime wants to be admired by others? All of his behavior suggests he doesn't care about what others say. This is arrogance and pride, not narcissism.

While I agree that calling Jaime a narcissist is pretty ridiculous to say the least, saying that he doesn't care what others say about him is also pretty wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have been so bothered by the 'Kingslayer' label.

[Apoplexy]

32 minutes ago, Dofs said:

While I agree that calling Jaime a narcissist is pretty ridiculous to say the least, saying that he doesn't care what others say about him is also pretty wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have been so bothered by the 'Kingslayer' label.

I would say he his bothered by the fact that people think he killed the king for sport. If people called him kingslayer in a derogatory way inspite of knowing his reason for doing it, I doubt he would care. He is bothered about being vilified for what he describes as his 'finest act'.

ETA: I don't think he is immune from caring what other people think. He is arrogant, but not to the point of never caring about his reputation. If he thinks he was wrong, he cares then, and even tries to correct his behavior.

[Dofs]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I would say he his bothered by the fact that people think he killed the king for sport. If people called him kingslayer in a derogatory way inspite of knowing his reason for doing it, I doubt he would care. He is bothered about being vilified for what he describes as his 'finest act'.

That's not really it, Jaime's reason for anger over his nickname is not that he saved KL from wildfire by killing Aerys. After all, no one knows his true reason for killing the king and Jaime specifically made sure that no one would. Why Jaime was angry was because everybody knew what a maniac Aerys was and agreed that he deserved his fate but still hated Jaime for striking him. Like imagine if some German killed Hitler and Allies fighting him started to despise that German for not staying loyal to Hitler instead. 

[Apoplexy]

10 minutes ago, Dofs said:

That's not really it, Jaime's reason for anger over his nickname is not that he saved KL from wildfire by killing Aerys. After all, no one knows his true reason for killing the king and Jaime specifically made sure that no one would. Why Jaime was angry was because everybody knew what a maniac Aerys was and agreed that he deserved his fate but still hated Jaime for striking him. Like imagine if some German killed Hitler and Allies fighting him started to despise that German for not staying loyal to Hitler instead. 

The way I see it, people vilified Jaime since he killed the king inspite of specifically being charged to protect him. They wouldn't have despised him half as much had he not been KG. And a lot of the commom folk didn't know that depths of aerys' maniacal nature, since that was something only people in the Red Keep would know. 

Jaime disliked the fact that people consider him an oathbreaker, when he was indeed breaking one, but upholding the 'protect the innocent' oath when killing aerys.

[Dofs]

26 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The way I see it, people vilified Jaime since he killed the king inspite of specifically being charged to protect him. They wouldn't have despised him half as much had he not been KG. And a lot of the commom folk didn't know that depths of aerys' maniacal nature, since that was something only people in the Red Keep would know. 

Jaime disliked the fact that people consider him an oathbreaker, when he was indeed breaking one, but upholding the 'protect the innocent' oath when killing aerys.

Yes, people vilified him because Jaime was a KG that swore an oath to protect Aerys and that oath for them is sacred but for Jaime it just isn't. He fundamentally views oaths differently, he doesn't prioritise KG oaths above others he gave, as he shows in his 'so many oaths' speech, and hence for him it's not impossible for a KG to kill a king if he deserves it. In his speech to Brienne he doesn't even see a difference between him or Robert, for example:

"Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor."

Also remember his dialogue with Catelyn where he assumes that she doesn't know how Ned's brother and father died and then proceeds to tell the story. He did it to show how horrible the king he killed was, basically saying to her 'do I really deserve to be hated for killing this horrible monster?' And then Cat still calls him a Kingslayer and Jaime just flips out and starts to throw insults after insults. And this is what he is mad about - that people hate him for killing their version of Hitler. It's not wildfire at all, it makes no sense for Jaime being angry because he in fact saved KL from wildfire, because Jaime personally took action that no one would find out about the wildfire plan. Why would he be angry at people not knowing what he hid?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

Yes, people vilified him because Jaime was a KG that swore an oath to protect Aerys and that oath for them is sacred but for Jaime it just isn't. He fundamentally views oaths differently, he doesn't prioritise KG oaths above others he gave, as he shows in his 'so many oaths' speech, and hence for him it's not impossible for a KG to kill a king if he deserves it. In his speech to Brienne he doesn't even see a difference between him or Robert, for example:

Jaime's oath speech is basically just the excuse/justification of a murderer. They all come up with excuses and rationalizations why they had to do it, or why it wasn't that bad/justified.

Westeros is not that contradictory or erratic a culture. A KG simply does not betray much less murder his king. Period. That's how it is. And it is not that people expect or allow the KG to be conflicted about that. They aren't. If you join the KG your most important duty is to keep your KG vows (which Jaime never actually did, considering he took his KG vows of chastity to be able to bang his sister more often).

This is consensus in Westeros - just as it is consensus that your vows as a black brother beat your vows as a KG (if you had previously been a KG), a lord, a maester, a septon, etc. Westeros might burn and your family might be cut to pieces and fed to the dogs - but as a black brother you are not allowed to leave your post to help them.

Jaime never understood or cared about any of that. He attacks the institution/practice of swearing vows rather than admit and address that he himself was to weak, self-involved, and corrupt to keep them. He shifts the blame to other people/circumstances outside his control rather than actually accepting what he did.

And he never did murder anyone to save people. Especially not his king. He didn't have to kill Rossart (he could have arrested, crippled, or knocked him out), he didn't have to murder all the alchemists he killed later (which actually endangered the city because nobody knew where the wildfire was hidden), and he didn't have to murder the king. He did that because he wanted to do it - and he wanted to do it like a coward, because he chaos to sneak in and do his murders, hoping/expecting nobody would ever find out what he did (which worked for the alchemists but not Aerys II).

How corrupt Jaime is you can see in this whole issue he has with the Starks. His sense of right and wrong, his basic morality, is so warped that he cannot even understand why Ned doesn't thank him for (sort of also) avenging his brother and father. Ned, on the other hand, would never break as solemn a commitment as KG vow - not to bang his sister or any other woman, nor to murder a man he had sworn to protect.

If he had been in Jaime's situation he would have found a way to prevent the burning of the city and not kill his king - and that wouldn't have been that difficult.

4 hours ago, Dofs said:

While I agree that calling Jaime a narcissist is pretty ridiculous to say the least, saying that he doesn't care what others say about him is also pretty wrong, otherwise he wouldn't have been so bothered by the 'Kingslayer' label.

Jaime is a successful narcissist. Up until he loses his hand he pretty much had everything he ever wanted. He doesn't need to push himself into the center all the time because whenever Jaime Lannister shows up he'll be surrounded by lickspittles, admirers, etc. That didn't change after he killed the Mad King.

But his psychopathic tendencies are actually much higher than his narcissist tendencies. He has very little real emotion - which you cannot only see in the casual nature of the attempted Bran murder, his memory of the Aerys II's murder, his reaction to Tywin's murder, his reaction to Joffrey's murder (and him pushing Cersei into having sex in front of their son's corpse!) but also in things like him casually contemplating to slay Brienne with an oar or in his reaction to the death of his cousin Cleos Frey (about whom he doesn't give a damn at all).

Even after everything he and Brienne went through - he quickly abandons her to the Bloody Mummers. It is only the dream which causes him to save her - and this dream sent him the message that he, Jaime, would need Brienne in the future to survive - that she was his only hope. It didn't trigger any empathy for other people on his part but rather played at his sense of self-preservation.

[Dofs]

Delete

[Dofs]

43 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

snip

I'll just say I disagree with basically every single thing you wrote to the point of wondering what books have you read and will leave it at that. 

[Platypus Rex]

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Ok, that's part of the definition, in my opinion. But let's go with this part.

what about Jaime's behavior tells you he admires himself too much?

Pretty much everything.  Let's start with what you say below.

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He has a sense of entitlement, but that's not the same as thinking too much oneself.

Well, it is certainly ONE way of thinking too much of oneself.  Unless, of course, you agree that he is exactly as entitled as he thinks he is.  Which I don't.  So as far as I'm concerned, I have no need to say any more, though I could.

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime sometimes references 'lions not caring about the opinion of sheep', but that's not because he thinks too muc h of himself, he just doesn't care what others have to say about him.

LOL.  Your translation leaves out the key implication -- the REASON he does not "care" -- because he is, in his view, so much superior to them.  We already established earlier in this thread that he thinks he owes nothing to the gods.  We also know, from this example, that he thinks he owes nothing to any man either.  He is just ABOVE any law of God or Man.  He is beyond good and evil.  Nobody has a right to judge him.   Nobody but Jaime.

Pretty grandiose, I would say.

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He is constantly questioning himself, his oaths, his behavior.ah

Yeah, but, in his opinion, he is the only one who has a right to do that.

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

What tells you Jaime wants to be admired by others?

Well, at first he was satisfied, more or less, with being admired by Cersei, and with being physically perfect.  But then he lost his hand, and he also realized Cersei did not love him as much as he though.  Now he hates Cersei, presumably because she does not admire him as much as he thinks he deserves.  And suddenly he is looking elsewhere for admiration.  He is looking in the White Book, and comparing his own career to others, and wondering, apparently, how he cannot better the situation. 

And when Pia tells him that she closes her eyes and pretends she's doing Jaime, he treasures the quote and repeats it back to himself.  Not because he cares much about Pia, who he hands off to one of his subordinates.  

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

All of his behavior suggests he doesn't care about what others say. This is arrogance and pride, not narcissism.

You can call his behavior all sorts of things.  Narcissist is one of the nicer ones.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Dofs said:

He had to kill them as far as he understood and he was completely right.

Nonsense. He was adolescent running amok, basically. And a coward at that. Everybody with a sword can put down some raving lunatic and his lickspittles when all the guards are running away and the enemy is already knocking at the door. He had no objective reason to kill his king to save anyone and he never actually pretends he was saving anyone in his memory. For Brienne, yes, there he babbles about vows and hides behind the wildlfire but there is nothing of that in his actual memories. No indication of a conflict, no moral dilemma, just a young man's desire to murder.

And his presumption to assume should thank him for that is ridiculous. Jaime Lannister is basically Hans Landa from 'Inglorious Basterds' - he was part of the Targaryen system until the very end and only jumped ship when it seemed convenient. Ned shouldn't only have killed Jaime for murdering his king but also for standing there and watch and help Aerys II to kill Brandon and Rickard Stark and all the other people.

But I've to say you gave us a pretty good excuse should we ever want to abuse or kill people or commit some more forgivable crimes - I guess we'll get off the hook if we just say 'the situation as we understood it demanded that we act in this manner'...

3 minutes ago, Dofs said:

That's so wrong on so many levels, I don't even want to address it any further.

Are you sure you could address it if you tried?

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

LOL.  Your translation leaves out the key implication -- the REASON he does not "care" -- because he is, in his view, so much superior to them.  We already established earlier in this thread that he thinks he owes nothing to the gods.  We also know, from this example, that he thinks he owes nothing to any man either.  He is just ABOVE any law of God or Man.  He is beyond good and evil.  Nobody has a right to judge him.   Nobody but Jaime.

Pretty grandiose, I would say.

That is in fact the core of Jaime's personality disorder. He thinks only he has the right to judge him - and that is reflected in most if not all of his actions. Even his greatest flaws - his carelessness, his inability to properly assess a political situation goes back to this supreme hubris. Jaime is the very embodiment of arrogance.

And it is not surprising why this is the case. He had everything - beauty, strength, insane wealth. There is character in the main series that was ever more privileged than Jaime Lannister.

This kind of thing doesn't get better it gets worse after he loses his hand. After that, he realizes that his self-image and his physical reality no longer add up. This causes a rather severe problem for him. But he doesn't get better, he gets worse. Instead of strengthening his connection with his family he starts running amok with completely erratic ideas. He didn't want to be Lord Commander of the Kingsguard but when Tywin wants to release him from his vows he insists he must be a KG now, and only a KG (which is effectively defiance motivated by the fact that he felt powerless and impotent because he had no voice in the decision to make him LC - nor in the appointment of the men who do now serve in his KG).

When Cersei refuses to openly marry him (which is a ridiculous idea and would be suicide for them and their children) he starts to punish her - which gets much worse after Tyrion's poisoned dart triggered his jealousy (prior to that Jaime's feelings for Cersei were not affected at all - Brienne had no impact on those whatsoever).

And on the political sphere he becomes now ever more dangerous because he knows he is an impotent cripple now. Nobody is going to ever fear him for his strength of arms again, nobody is going to fear that Kingslayer will draw his sword and just butcher you where you stand (which is what many a person did fear back in the day). Instead, Jaime starts to emulate his dad. Strength at arms has to be replaced by cruel threats and the determination to go through with them.

There is no question - if Edmure hadn't given in Jaime would have used the trebuchet - if only to show to his own men that he meant business. And then he would have taken Riverrun by storm and would have killed everyone inside.

5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, at first he was satisfied, more or less, with being admired by Cersei, and with being physically perfect.  But then he lost his hand, and he also realized Cersei did not love him as much as he though.  Now he hates Cersei, presumably because she does not admire him as much as he thinks he deserves.  And suddenly he is looking elsewhere for admiration.  He is looking in the White Book, and comparing his own career to others, and wondering, apparently, how he cannot better the situation.

I'd say he stil loves Cersei - he is on some sort of jealousy/punishment trip. He wants to hurt Cersei, too, because he himself feels hurt by her. They could have overcome that in AFfC if they had actually talked about their problems - if Jaime had confessed what he did with Tyrion and Cersei had told Jaime about the lovers she felt she was forced to take. But they don't and thus the poison only festers there - and will most likely drive them further and further apart to a point where they can no longer overcome their differences again.

But if Jaime is the one who kills Cersei in the end (which is very likely also going to be his own death considering there are hints that they will leave the world together like they came into the world) then he will both hate and love her when he does that.

This whole idea that their relationship is something as trivial as a normal romance/love gone bad doesn't do justice to their twin bond. Siblings - especially twin siblings - have rather complex emotional bonds and connections - and those are very prominent in the case of Jaime and Cersei. They are not just a couple who can no longer stand each other.

I see no reason to over-interpret Jaime's thoughts that Cersei is not going to like his new look all that much ... until we don't know what Jaime would feel if Cersei were to cut her and dye it black this is not a particularly important statement.

They are also both too self-involved and focused on themselves (i.e. narcissistic) to properly understand their respective losses. Jaime doesn't give a damn about Joffrey nor does he care what Cersei went through in his absence. Vice versa, Cersei doesn't understand what the loss of Jaime's hand meant for him.

But if you remember AGoT/ACoK/ASoS then there are numerous instances where Cersei is very much afraid for Jaime's life (she is that again in ADwD when he goes missing) whereas Jaime merely wants to return to Cersei all the time - he doesn't care how she or their children are, or whether they are in any danger.

5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

And when Pia tells him that she closes her eyes and pretends she's doing Jaime, he treasures the quote and repeats it back to himself.  Not because he cares much about Pia, who he hands off to one of his subordinates.  

You can call his behavior all sorts of things.  Narcissist is one of the nicer ones.

In relation to Harrenhal one can also cite how well Jaime gets along with Raff. He either doesn't realize what scum Gregor's men are or he doesn't care - and it is quite clear that it is the latter.

[Dofs]

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Are you sure you could address it if you tried?

Of course I am sure, but I'll be ending up posting loads of quotes from the books that you'll end up ignoring anyway, based on my previous experience of arguing with you some time before and I don't time nor patience for that.

[Apoplexy]

23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, it is certainly ONE way of thinking too much of oneself.  Unless, of course, you agree that he is exactly as entitled as he thinks he is.  Which I don't.  So as far as I'm concerned, I have no need to say any more, though I could.

The sense of entitlement comes from his wealth and station, not self adoration. That makes him a bit of an asshole, not a narcissist. If you do not see the difference, I have nothing further to say as well.

25 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

LOL.  Your translation leaves out the key implication -- the REASON he does not "care" -- because he is, in his view, so much superior to them.  We already established earlier in this thread that he thinks he owes nothing to the gods.  We also know, from this example, that he thinks he owes nothing to any man either.  He is just ABOVE any law of God or Man.  He is beyond good and evil.  Nobody has a right to judge him.   Nobody but Jaime.

Pretty grandiose, I would say.

I'm not going to get into owing something to God. In my view, religiosity or spirituality has nothing to do with morality. But that's beyond the scope of this discussion.

Jaime full well realizes what he owes other people. He realizes he is duty bound to protect the queen as well as the queen. He realizes rapes are wrong and he owes the women in his camps protection from them. He knows he did wrong deeds while trying to hide his relationship with cersei and is ashamed of them. what makes you say he thinks he is above the law? Of all characters, it is Jaime that struggles with what is right and wrong, good and evil, without being a fundamentalist for what is considered honorable.

37 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, at first he was satisfied, more or less, with being admired by Cersei, and with being physically perfect.  But then he lost his hand, and he also realized Cersei did not love him as much as he though.  Now he hates Cersei, presumably because she does not admire him as much as he thinks he deserves.  And suddenly he is looking elsewhere for admiration.  He is looking in the White Book, and comparing his own career to others, and wondering, apparently, how he cannot better the situation. 

Jaime was admired by Cersei? How do you mean. Cersei thought of Jaime as an extension of herself, true. But she never admired jaime.

He doesn't want to be with Cersei because she broke his trust.

how is wanting to be better the same as  craving admiration?

41 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

And when Pia tells him that she closes her eyes and pretends she's doing Jaime, he treasures the quote and repeats it back to himself.  Not because he cares much about Pia, who he hands off to one of his subordinates.

If someone compliments you, how is feeling good craving admiration?

42 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

You can call his behavior all sorts of things.  Narcissist is one of the nicer ones.

We disagree completely.

[frenin]

Jaime's a very self centered asshole,  funnilly enough that's a quality he shares with Robert whom he envies and hates so much but he's far from a psycho and if ine of the twins are narcissist, that's definitely not Jaime.

The arguments for saying he has psycho tendencies are very weak,  Jaime's a battle hardened soldier, so there is absolutely nothing odd in him considering that he should've kill Brienne, Jaime doesn't love his father and he resents him, he doesn't love Joff and besides Joff being a monster he was forbidden to show any warm towards the kid and dettached himself as much as he could and he doesn't even consider Cleos his family, the premise for him to being some sort of psycho is clear, those men are Jaime's blood, so he should've feel something, that's a very flawed argument, blood on its own isn't a very strong bond, but it's the best source over which forge rather umbreakable bonds. There is only to look how the Baratheon brothers, the Greyjoys and the Lannisters behave, the first two don't even bother to pretend that the only bond they share is blood and that's why they end like they did, the latters last a bit longer only because Tyrion only gives up on his family when he finds out about Tysha. Tyrion loyalty, entirely because blood, and eagerness to prove himself to his family, even when that was a lost cause, was what single handely keep the Lannisters alive while Cersei showed time after time why blood is a very weak bond and Tywin just hid it.

If Jaime doesn't share any meaningful bond with those men but blood, he shouldn't act in anyway. There is no part of his brain that should be activated when a relative he doesn't care about dies, as close as that relative may be.

Unless we say that all Aerys' seven are psychos, the idea that Jaime is some sort of psycho for standing there during the Stark's murder is ludicrous, Jaime tried as much as he could to detach himself of the thing, not did he just watch curious and emotionless but he tried as much as he could to think in something beatiful simply to not lose it and after the deed it were his brothers who reminded him his oath, whiixh is again a very brutal psychological abuse.

 

That said, Jaime is rationalizing Aerys' murder, i don't buy for a second that he only could Aerys, nor his memories seem to buy it either, Jaime was abused and forever  psychogically scarred by Aerys and he went there to pay him back in kind, that's  fine, Aerys screwed him he screwed him back, what is more damning is his post hoc rationalizations, his bitternes for everybody think of him as a murderer and oathbreaker and his hatred and envy of both Robert and Ned, who are like mirrors of himself for him, those three are really interesting, the three of them are around the same age, the three of them were part of the most powerful families of the Realm and as far as Jaime is concerned they all are oathbreakers and wretched villains or glorious heros, but Jaime hates and envies the fact that only Robert and Ned are regarded as glorious heros, after tearing the realm apart, and he absolutely hates that Ned is the paragon of honor who despises him even when he himself is an oathbreaker and father of bastards.

As far as Jaime can see it, those two are as bad as he is and they are adored while he himself is only reviled.

[Apoplexy]

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is in fact the core of Jaime's personality disorder.

What personality disorder are we talking about here?

[Platypus Rex]

4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The sense of entitlement comes from his wealth and station, not self adoration.

Who cares where it comes from?  You pretended to accept my definition, and now you are throwing extra obstacles in it's path.

4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

That makes him a bit of an asshole, not a narcissist.

Why can't he be both?

 

4 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If you do not see the difference, I have nothing further to say as well.

Bye.

[Platypus Rex]

3 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

What personality disorder are we talking about here?

Assholery.

[Apoplexy]

4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Who cares where it comes from?  You pretended to accept my definition, and now you are throwing extra obstacles in it's path.

The difference matters because the English language makes a difference. Otherwise entitlement and narcissism wouldve been synonyms.

5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Why can't he be both?

Because he is not, and I've explained in detail in our conversation.

4 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Assholery

I thought you were done talking to me..

Anways, thanks for proving my point.

[Platypus Rex]

2 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I thought you were done talking to me..

I never said so.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, frenin said:

The arguments for saying he has psycho tendencies are very weak,  Jaime's a battle hardened soldier, so there is absolutely nothing odd in him considering that he should've kill Brienne, Jaime doesn't love his father and he resents him, he doesn't love Joff and besides Joff being a monster he was forbidden to show any warm towards the kid and dettached himself as much as he could and he doesn't even consider Cleos his family, the premise for him to being some sort of psycho is clear, those men are Jaime's blood, so he should've feel something, that's a very flawed argument, blood on its own isn't a very strong bond, but it's the best source over which forge rather umbreakable bonds.

Ned is a soldier, too. He doesn't score high on the psychopathy checklist. Jaime does.

Joff wasn't 'a monster' - he was a spoiled brat who was ignored by his father who he tried to emulate the best way he could. He wasn't entirely normal, to be sure, but this is not the reason why Jaime had no feelings for him.

Agreeing with Jaime that he has no connection to his children because he wasn't allowed to be close to them is silly. He was still their uncle - and the uncle who didn't live at court - Tyrion - actually has a very healthy relationship with Tommen and Myrcella. How is that? You don't have to treat your son-nephew as your son to be a decent enough uncle and have some sort of uncle bond with the children of your sister. The disturbing sign is that those children mean so little to him. A normal father would have still loved them even if he couldn't show his feelings - but Jaime doesn't have any fatherly feelings for his children.

Contemplating murdering a woman in cold blood who was charged with bringing you safely to your sister and brother is also nothing you do because you are 'a soldier'. It is the kind of thing a man like Jaime does.

Cleos was Jaime's family and he grew up with him at Casterly Rock. The way Jaime operates Lannisters - i.e. Tywin's children - are completely set apart from other people. In fact, Jaime pretty much embodies the whole Doctrine of Exceptionalism thing - which for Jaehaerys I was just a ploy to get people to accept incest. Only the weirdo nutcases like Aerion ever truly believed that thing, but Jaime essentially sees himself and his siblings 'exceptional' in this way, too.