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Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.


chrisdaw

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The disturbing sign is that those children mean so little to him. A normal father would have still loved them even if he couldn't show his feelings - but Jaime doesn't have any fatherly feelings for his children.

I realize you are ignoring me, but I'll add this. 

We can determine whether a particular behavior in a particular situation is usual or unusual. But whether a behavior in a particular situation is normal or not is something even current research would find hard to determine (depending on the situation and behavior of course).

I bring this up since you say Jaime, a fictional character, has a personality disorder.

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2 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I realize you are ignoring me, but I'll add this. 

We can determine whether a particular behavior in a particular situation is usual or unusual. But whether a behavior in a particular situation is normal or not is something even current research would find hard to determine (depending on the situation and behavior of course).

I bring this up since you say Jaime, a fictional character, has a personality disorder.

It makes no sense to quibble about such terms in relation to a fictional character. Unless the author is psychiatrist - which he isn't - they can only be used loosely or as approximations.

'Normal' is also a term I'd use colloquially in this context, i.e. for people who act, behave, and feel normally.

Littlefinger, for instance, is, in the end, just a fantasy psychopath. He has quite a few of the key traits a psychopath would have but it is unrealistic that a man with his twisted nature would be that good at reading people and faking emotion - psychopaths are emotional cripples. They process/feel emotions differently, and have severe problems to produce a convincing or adequate emotional reaction on cue - and to actually properly read the emotional state of others correctly. They can and try to compensate when it suits their ends - but Littlefinger is basically chameleon who fools everybody. And no real world psychopaths would even feel the need to do that. There would always be people to insignificant/unimportant/stupid where he feels no need to hide his true self from.

 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It makes no sense to quibble about such terms in relation to a fictional character. Unless the author is psychiatrist - which he isn't - they can only be used loosely or as approximations.

 

Which is exactly my point, based on anything Grrm writes, it is impossible to say whether a character has a personality disorder.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Ned is a soldier, too. He doesn't score high on the psychopathy checklist. Jaime does.

 

Jaime doesn't, you're just exaggerating his acts to the point that they get where you want them. Ned is a soldier and if he was made prisoner and had the chance to escape, he would not hesitate either.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Joff wasn't 'a monster' - he was a spoiled brat who was ignored by his father who he tried to emulate the best way he could. He wasn't entirely normal, to be sure, but this is not the reason why Jaime had no feelings for him.

 

Joff was killing pregnant cats and abusing Tommen when he was a kid, Joff was quite a monster.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Agreeing with Jaime that he has no connection to his children because he wasn't allowed to be close to them is silly. He was still their uncle - and the uncle who didn't live at court - Tyrion - actually has a very healthy relationship with Tommen and Myrcella. How is that? You don't have to treat your son-nephew as your son to be a decent enough uncle and have some sort of uncle bond with the children of your sister. The disturbing sign is that those children mean so little to him. A normal father would have still loved them even if he couldn't show his feelings - but Jaime doesn't have any fatherly feelings for his children.

 

Except that Jaime is not their uncle, nor he could behave like his uncle, Jaime is his father nd the oligation of being dettached, to the point that Cersei even forbids him fir being much loving with them, soured him, Jaime effectively dettached himself to the point that he didn't feel them.

As i said to you, using your standards as how normal people should work is nonsense here, your idea is that Jaime should love them because he's the father, that's a very bs argument, blood is not the end of the world and if you don't cultivate a relationship, there simply isn't one, as much blood as is shared.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Contemplating murdering a woman in cold blood who was charged with bringing you safely to your sister and brother is also nothing you do because you are 'a soldier'. It is the kind of thing a man like Jaime does.

 

Why?? Brienne was in his way and Jaime could take the chance solve it, that's a very soldier way of thinking.

Brienne is literally nothing to Jaime, nor he owes her nothing, there is absolutely no morak code that prevents Jaime from doing what it suits him best there.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

 Cleos was Jaime's family and he grew up with him at Casterly Rock. The way Jaime operates Lannisters - i.e. Tywin's children - are completely set apart from other people. In fact, Jaime pretty much embodies the whole Doctrine of Exceptionalism thing - which for Jaehaerys I was just a ploy to get people to accept incest. Only the weirdo nutcases like Aerion ever truly believed that thing, but Jaime essentially sees himself and his siblings 'exceptional' in this way, too.

 

That doesn't matter and we know it's not true either, Jaime has/had a very loving relationship with most if not all of his uncles and he loves Genna Lannister as a second mother, that love however  hasn't passed to Cleos and the rest, the idea that Jaime  or anyone must feel something for them because they are family is the most ludicrous of all the pretenses. People feel something for others for bonds, not for blood, the latter is just a means to an end. 

There is no exceptionalism there, just the simply fact that Jaime doesn't care, nor love his cousin and he cares more about his uncle's bastard more than he ever cared about Cleos, is just how bonds are created. I didn't see Tyrion tear his 

This pretense is the same that soured Stannis, who believed that he was owed Robert's love and was butthurt with Ned and was incapable of understanding that the bonds Robert and Ned shared were deeper than the blood.

Overall i think that you have  quite rigid notions about how a normal person should act with regards of family, friends etc.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say he stil loves Cersei - he is on some sort of jealousy/punishment trip. He wants to hurt Cersei, too, because he himself feels hurt by her. 

Well, there are still feelings there, to be sure.  And of course there is a thin line between love and hate.  I guess I just feel that this is not going to end well.  But of course, I cannot predict the future.

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21 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except 'choosing your words' cannot be done when talking about personality disorders. A personality disorder is a specific clinical condition.

9 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Word, i'm shocked with the lightness people diagnosticate mental conditions.

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3 hours ago, frenin said:

Word, i'm shocked with the lightness people diagnosticate mental conditions.

I couldn't agree more. Mental illness isn't a joke, and if there is any place where people should use their words carefully, it is when talking about mental illness.

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15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Which is exactly my point, based on anything Grrm writes, it is impossible to say whether a character has a personality disorder.

That would be wrong. We can make approximations. And we can certainly say that quite a few characters have severe mental personality issues, Jaime among them. Although he certainly isn't as deraged or stupid as Theon or Victarion.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Jaime doesn't, you're just exaggerating his acts to the point that they get where you want them. Ned is a soldier and if he was made prisoner and had the chance to escape, he would not hesitate either.

To escape, sure. But we are not talking about that.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Joff was killing pregnant cats and abusing Tommen when he was a kid, Joff was quite a monster.

Joff killed one pregnant cat, not multiple cats. And yes, that is a troubling sign. But it was at an early age and if his parents had cared about him they could have helped him get better not worse.

In a realistic environment animal cruelty and the lack of empathy that comes with it is not something people just show 'by virtue of freak birth' but it develops by virtue of surroundings in combination with genetic predispositions.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Except that Jaime is not their uncle, nor he could behave like his uncle, Jaime is his father nd the oligation of being dettached, to the point that Cersei even forbids him fir being much loving with them, soured him, Jaime effectively dettached himself to the point that he didn't feel them.

Jaime is both their father and their uncle.

And he does spend time with the children - remember that breakfast he shared with Cersei and the children at Winterfell? He didn't do much fatherly things with the children alone but it is actually wrong to claim he never played a part in their lives at all. In fact, that doesn't really work considering he was constantly at Cersei's side.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

As i said to you, using your standards as how normal people should work is nonsense here, your idea is that Jaime should love them because he's the father, that's a very bs argument, blood is not the end of the world and if you don't cultivate a relationship, there simply isn't one, as much blood as is shared.

You don't have to be close to a family member to feel something at their deaths. I'm not particularly close to my own nephew and nieces but I certainly would react differently than Jaime did at the death of his son-nephew. Jaime blames Cersei for his lack of feelings, but that's not her fault - it is his. It is another instance where he shifts blame to other people/circumstances rather than taking responsibility himself.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

Why?? Brienne was in his way and Jaime could take the chance solve it, that's a very soldier way of thinking.

Brienne is literally nothing to Jaime, nor he owes her nothing, there is absolutely no morak code that prevents Jaime from doing what it suits him best there.

It underlines Jaime's mental ability and willingness to kill people who cannot defend themselves. It is a very ugly trait. It is not my fault that you don't see this.

14 hours ago, frenin said:

That doesn't matter and we know it's not true either, Jaime has/had a very loving relationship with most if not all of his uncles and he loves Genna Lannister as a second mother, that love however  hasn't passed to Cleos and the rest, the idea that Jaime  or anyone must feel something for them because they are family is the most ludicrous of all the pretenses. People feel something for others for bonds, not for blood, the latter is just a means to an end. 

Genna is Tywin's sister. She is part of the Lannister in-group he cares about up to a point.

 

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4 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Except 'choosing your words' cannot be done when talking about personality disorders. A personality disorder is a specific clinical condition.

A personality disorder is basically just an arbitrary concept which is used to systemematize a number of symptoms and traits. It is a post hoc concept and used before/without a proper analysis of the underlying mechanics - assuming there are any. It also works as a means to differentiate between 'normal' and 'healthy' individuals and 'unnormal' and 'pathological' traits, qualities, and behavior - which are also arbitrary and dependent on the world view or point of view you are taking.

13 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, there are still feelings there, to be sure.  And of course there is a thin line between love and hate.  I guess I just feel that this is not going to end well.  But of course, I cannot predict the future.

I don't think it will end well, either. My point is just that there is no indication that either of them hates the other at this point. Jaime's true feelings are sort of hidden behind his bottled-up rage - we don't really know what he feels about Cersei at the moment aside from the fact that he wants to punish her and is clearly jealous/feels betrayed by her (alleged) affairs.

How their relationship is going to change in future books is completely unclear at this point. I expect them to start resent each other more because they don't get a chance to talk things out - their feelings will be shaped by reports they get about each other and their interpretations on that on the basis of their current resentment.

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8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be wrong. We can make approximations. And we can certainly say that quite a few characters have severe mental personality issues, Jaime among them. Although he certainly isn't as deraged or stupid as Theon or Victarion.

Then you would be using the words 'personality issues' extremely fippantly. And you have the right to do it, it's just insensitive in my opinion.

As for what I specifically took issue to, it was the use of the term 'personality disorder', which you had used in your previous response. A personality disorder is a specific condition, that is not abstract. You would be wrong if you claim a fictional character written by grrm has a personality disorder.

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22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is a post hoc concept and used before/without a proper analysis of the underlying mechanics - assuming there are any

I would recommend you read this abstract. It talks about major depression and the present understanding of it. I realize it is extremely technical and extremely specific, but it shows how far we have come in understanding the underlying mechanisms of mental illness.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315475130_An_astroglial_basis_of_major_depressive_disorder_An_overview_WANG_et_al

 

ALso, I have no connection whatsoever to the authors. 

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36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To escape, sure. But we are not talking about that.

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Ofc we are, Jaime doesn't want to kill her because he finds it funny, he wants to kill her because he dislikes her and  he is capable of thinking that because he's a veteran soldier and killer.

 

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Joff killed one pregnant cat, not multiple cats. And yes, that is a troubling sign. But it was at an early age and if his parents had cared about him they could have helped him get better not worse.

In a realistic environment animal cruelty and the lack of empathy that comes with it is not something people just show 'by virtue of freak birth' but it develops by virtue of surroundings in combination with genetic predispositions.

Ofc,  i don't disagree and his parents screwed up big time with it, but the reality is the more he gre, the more monster he became and that can repel someone.

 

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is both their father and their uncle.

 

Oh, touché,  but Jaime wanted to be his father, not thir uncle.

 

 

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 And he does spend time with the children - remember that breakfast he shared with Cersei and the children at Winterfell? He didn't do much fatherly things with the children alone but it is actually wrong to claim he never played a part in their lives at all. In fact, that doesn't really work considering he was constantly at Cersei's side.

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So?? You can still be with someone and dettach yourself emotionally and that's exactly what he did, i never said that he never played a part in their lives i said that Jaime effectively cut all emotional ties.

 

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You don't have to be close to a family member to feel something at their deaths. I'm not particularly close to my own nephew and nieces but I certainly would react differently than Jaime did at the death of his son-nephew. Jaime blames Cersei for his lack of feelings, but that's not her fault - it is his. It is another instance where he shifts blame to other people/circumstances rather than taking responsibility himself.

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That's fine for you, i wouldn't and would be far more emotional if it were a my classmate or my roomate. And that's one of the things here, you're using your own societal norms to make a mental diagnosis,  there is no part of your brain that activates when a relative dies and makes you feel sadness,  the emotional bonds you share with those relatives are what determines it, if you don't have any you won't feel nothing.

 

I don't really get the last part.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It underlines Jaime's mental ability and willingness to kill people who cannot defend themselves. It is a very ugly trait. It is not my fault that you don't see this.

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It's a dishonorable trait but we are not arguing about honor here, or would you give someone who overpowers you the chance to kill you?? i'd say that a very ugly trait is his willigness to kill children,  Jaime is nearly 1,9 m and Jaime is in chains, not that it matters.

 

 

 

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Genna is Tywin's sister. She is part of the Lannister in-group he cares about up to a point.

 

You're drawing the line, not him. And Jaime considers Genna a second mother. 

But just for the sake of arguing, couldn't be that they are the only ones who treated Jaime like a Jaime and not the kingslayer??

Because it's quite odd that the only ones with whom Jaime shares meaningful bonds are the only ones who have done that, those Lannister in group, Addam Marbrand and Brienne.

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