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Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.


chrisdaw

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16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

He has not actually done anything wrong, at least not yet.  Kevan and Jaime feel frustrated because THEY can no longer manipulate him. So does not this basically boil down to "I hate him because I hate religious people"??  Why don't you wait until the High Sparrow makes him do something he should not do?  Then you can blame him for his bad acts, and for letting himself be manipulated

Honestly I don't think too much about Lancel. What I'm saying he is still the same idiot he always was. And I would bet Lancel will do more stupid things for the high sparrow.

 

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm not defending the walk of shame.  It is stupid and inappropriate, either as punishment or penance, for the exact same reason the Westerosi bedding ceremony is stupid and inappropriate, and for the exact same reason that Catelyn's naked dance in front of Maester Luwyn is stupid and inappropriate.  And the person to blame is obviously GRRM.  If you want to blame the High Sparrow too, I'm also fine with that.  But you're trying to blame Lancel, and that's just dumb.

Lancel bears some responsibility for his actions. Doesn't matter that the walk of atonement is accepted practice in the universe. If lancel is participating in cersei's slut shaming, I would blame him.

I wouldn't describe Cat's behavior as a 'dance ' or even that inappropriate, for multiple reasons. That's a whole different discussion.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I dunny, but that's what Lancel did.  He voluntarily humiliated and demeaned himself.  He even began hanging out with filthy common folk and calling them "friends", much to the disgust of Jaime.

Except lancel wasn't paraded naked, against his will. What he went through is not the same as what cersei went through.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Maybe.  But that has nothing to do with Lancel.  He is merely there to protect her from harm.

And as far as Lancel knows, Cercei has voluntarily agreed to accept this penance, as a sincere show of penitence.  

My point still remains, one of the allegations against Cersei is sleeping with Lancel. Him being her 'protector' is just wrong.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

So that's your beef with Lancel?  That you wanted to see him naked TOO??  Take it up with the GRRM or with the High Sparrow.  Lancel has not done anything wrong.  What he did was protect Cersei from harm.

I don't need to take anything up with the high sparrow or Grrm. I currently live in a world where women are slut shamed and discriminated against. T

While I do not believe two wrongs make a right, unequal punishment for the same crime is problematic to say the least.I

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I don't know how Lancel feels about public nudity, but some would feel that an hour of public nudity was a rather light and easy penance, compared to the penance that Lancel actually DID undertake

1) I'm not one of them.

2) the slut shamed women wouldn't be one of them.

3) the people who think being striped of your dignity is 'light and easy' would probably be men who have never experienced it.

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8 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Henry II, by his own free will made a walk of atonement (not naked though) barefoot in the dirty to show his regreat for the murder of Thomas Becket. In the word os Asoiaf we have Balor the blessed doing something similar.

Penance is a core part of the catholic faith, and if the seven are inspired by them, should be no surprise that some values such this were kept.

The point remains, making women walk naked on the streets is specifically meant to rob them of their dignity. It has nothing to with penance. 

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4 hours ago, frenin said:

When people start excusing Jaime's behaviour with loopholes you know that the man is gone.

I'm not excusing/condoning his behavior, just offering context.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

He clearly didn't, what he did do was enter  in the KG specifically to keep banging Cersei. 

And he only stops banging her because Tyrion's words  gave him pause. He can't stand the fact that he might be cheated.

Except he was already in the KG by then.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

He didn't, this part is really ludicrous, Jaime took an army to Riverrun to get the Tullys out of there, he threatened them all and  challenged the Black Fish to a duel, Jaime did broke all his oaths, his oaths was to not take up arms  against them, which he did, not to not harm them with arms, which is the new meaning people are giving it around here and  which he was ready to do anyways.

 

 

4 hours ago, frenin said:

What is taking  up arms against someone to you?? Only draw a sword and  attack someone?? Take up arms  against someone has very clear meanings besides the literal one, using mental gymnastics don't change that fact. 

What if the Blackfish put up a fight what are those men going to do?? Turn around and  leave him be because they can't take up arms  against them??

Yes, I would describe taking up arms as literally fighting, as per his oath to Catelyn.

If the blackfish did put up a fight and was killed, yeah, id say Jaime broke his oath partly. Although wouldn't be for lack of trying to uphold it.

4 hours ago, frenin said:

Did Jaime at any point gave any sign of being bluffing?? Because the first thing Jaime says is if you make a threat carry it on, only a fool makes threats he can't oblige and  so on, Jaime was not bluffing at any moment.

This is a subjective question. We don't know what he would've done since it didn't happen, edmure caved. I personally believe Jaime wouldn't do it, based on my reading of his character. You are free to disagree.

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9 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I'm not excusing/condoning his behavior, just offering context.

Which happens to  excuse or condone his behaviour.

 

9 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except he was already in the KG by then.

By when?? He donned the White Cloak for Cersei and  stopped banging her because she cheated on him.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Yes, I would describe taking up arms as literally fighting, as per his oath to Catelyn.

If the blackfish did put up a fight and was killed, yeah, id say Jaime broke his oath partly. Although wouldn't be for lack of trying to uphold it.

Then you're using a rather convenient loophole, because that wasn't what the oath was about, nor Jaime cared about said oath when he literally challenged the Blackfish to a duel.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

This is a subjective question. We don't know what he would've done since it didn't happen, edmure caved. I personally believe Jaime wouldn't do it, based on my reading of his character. You are free to disagree.

It's not subjective that Jaime wasn't bluffing, we're in his head  and  nothing betrays his words, it's your believe that Jaime wouldn't kill the baby, that's fine but Jaime don't agree and  he tried to kill Bran and  was ready to kill Arya.

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46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Which happens to  excuse or condone his behaviour.

Not really. It means not looking at the situation in black or white terms. It means offering degrees to wrongs.

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

By when?? He donned the White Cloak for Cersei and  stopped banging her because she cheated on him.

When Jaime had killed aerys. That what you had replied to.

I don't disagree that he joined the KG for cersei. But it wasn't only for Cersei. And he did indeed kill aerys to save a million people. Also, I don't get what's wrong with ending things with your lover of they cheat, if you find cheating a deal breaker.

50 minutes ago, frenin said:

Then you're using a rather convenient loophole, because that wasn't what the oath was about, nor Jaime cared about said oath when he literally challenged the Blackfish to a duel

Had he literally fought the blackish, I would say yes, technically he broke his oath. But not for the lack of trying to uphold it.

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not subjective that Jaime wasn't bluffing, we're in his head  and  nothing betrays his words, it's your believe that Jaime wouldn't kill the baby, that's fine but Jaime don't agree and  he tried to kill Bran and  was ready to kill Arya.

It's subjective because it didnt happen. it is possible people can say they would do something in their head, but not do it if push came to shove.

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

This is a subjective question. We don't know what he would've done since it didn't happen, edmure caved. I personally believe Jaime wouldn't do it, based on my reading of his character. You are free to disagree.

 

1 hour ago, frenin said:

It's not subjective that Jaime wasn't bluffing, we're in his head  and  nothing betrays his words, it's your believe that Jaime wouldn't kill the baby, that's fine but Jaime don't agree and  he tried to kill Bran and  was ready to kill Arya.

We are in his head but character thoughts are not black and white, we know how much internal conflict is going on inside Jaime's head at that point. 

Quote

 

"A siege is deadly dull. I wanted to see this stump of yours and hear whatever excuses you cared to offer up for your latest enormities. They were feebler than I'd hoped. You always disappoint, Kingslayer." The Blackfish wheeled his mare and trotted back toward Riverrun. The portcullis descended with a rush, its iron spikes biting deep into the muddy ground.

Jaime turned Honor's head about for the long ride back to the Lannister siege lines. He could feel the eyes on him; the Tully men upon their battlements, the Freys across the river. If they are not blind, they'll all know he threw my offer in my teeth. He would need to storm the castle. Well, what's one more broken vow to the Kingslayer? Just more shit in the bucket. Jaime resolved to be the first man on the battlements. And with this golden hand of mine, most like the first to fall.

 

He has made a vow to serve his king and he has been charged with taking the castle. He also made a vow never to take up arms against Stark or Tulley. At this point he is resolved to go through with the assault but kill himself in the process and let someone else take over. It is an entirely reasonable position to take that when he actually had to make the decision he decides to keep his vow to Catelyn. Characters can change their mind, especially when it is something they are so clearly conflicted about. 

 

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1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Not really. It means not looking at the situation in black or white terms. It means offering degrees to wrongs.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

No one looks the situation in those terms but sometimes are two clear paths but if we take one an then spend the rest of time justiying ourselves, then you see why it looks like you're either condoning it or  excusing a behaviour.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

When Jaime had killed aerys. That what you had replied to.

I don't disagree that he joined the KG for cersei. But it wasn't only for Cersei. And he did indeed kill aerys to save a million people. Also, I don't get what's wrong with ending things with your lover of they cheat, if you find cheating a deal breaker.

Jaime didn't kill Aerys to save a million people, he killed the pyromancers because of that, he killed Aerys because he wanted to and he believed he could do it without being noticed.

If Jaime's reasons to stop banging Cersei aren't his vows but the fact that he was horned, you can guess how much  he valued oaths in general.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Had he literally fought the blackish, I would say yes, technically he broke his oath. But not for the lack of trying to uphold it.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

So the fact that he didn't care about said oath don't matter or the fact that he took an army to Riverrun, literally taking up arms against them, because i'm sure he wasn't unarmed, don't matter either.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

It's subjective because it didnt happen. it is possible people can say they would do something in their head, but not do it if push came to shove.

Just like he had doubts about killing Arya or how he literally push Bran from the window. 

It should be subjective because the character gives us a reason to doubt of his words, not because we want to ignore everything to give the character the benefit of the doubt.

 

1 hour ago, Makk said:

We are in his head but character thoughts are not black and white, we know how much internal conflict is going on inside Jaime's head at that point. 

Quote

Was he having internal conflicts when he threatened Edmure's baby and when he challenged the Blackfiish?? There is no point in decontextualize my words.

 

1 hour ago, Makk said:

He has made a vow to serve his king and he has been charged with taking the castle. He also made a vow never to take up arms against Stark or Tulley. At this point he is resolved to go through with the assault but kill himself in the process and let someone else take over. It is an entirely reasonable position to take that when he actually had to make the decision he decides to keep his vow to Catelyn. Characters can change their mind, especially when it is something they are so clearly conflicted about. 

 

But how in the world he decides to keep his vow to Cat, he leads the army to take Riverrun, he challenges the Blackfish, he decies to storm the Castle, he threatens Edmure and then he sends men to capture the Blackfish?? What is reasonable of that?? Killing himself is reasonable as that would atone his sins?? Why?? 

I don't understand why people tries to turn Jaime as into another Barristan or Dayne, as if that somehow makes him bettter, when that only makes him as shitty as thoser are.

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16 minutes ago, frenin said:

No one looks the situation in those terms but sometimes are two clear paths but if we take one an then spend the rest of time justiying ourselves, then you see why it looks like you're either condoning it or  excusing a behaviour.

Except Jaime didn't justify his actions. Neither am I justifying all his bad decisions. Merely offering context, because in my opinion, Jaime deserves that context.

30 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime didn't kill Aerys to save a million people, he killed the pyromancers because of that, he killed Aerys because he wanted to and he believed he could do it without being noticed

If he just wanted to kill aerys, I wouldn't fault Jaime for that. Aerys was horrible.

Also, Jaime killed aerys because of the 'burn them all' thing.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Jaime's reasons to stop banging Cersei aren't his vows but the fact that he was horned, you can guess how much  he valued oaths in general.

I don't understand what Jaime deciding to end his relationship with Cersei has to do with his vows. I also don't understand why is wrong for cheating to be a deal breaker.

32 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

So the fact that he didn't care about said oath don't matter or the fact that he took an army to Riverrun, literally taking up arms against them, because i'm sure he wasn't unarmed, don't matter either.

Except Jaime cares a lot about the oaths he swears. Most of his internal conflict is about those oaths.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Just like he had doubts about killing Arya or how he literally push Bran from the window. 

It should be subjective because the character gives us a reason to doubt of his words, not because we want to ignore everything to give the character the benefit of the doubt.

Except Jaime has given us plenty of reason to doubt his words. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but his deliberations about all his oaths is proof of it. His desire to be 'goldenhand the just' is proof of it.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Was he having internal conflicts when he threatened Edmure's baby and when he challenged the Blackfiish?? 

Resounding yes.

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

But how in the world he decides to keep his vow to Cat, he leads the army to take Riverrun, he challenges the Blackfish, he decies to storm the Castle, he threatens Edmure and then he sends men to capture the Blackfish?? What is reasonable of that?? Killing himself is reasonable as that would atone his sins?? Why?? 

It is reasonable to threaten to kill a baby to avoid the deaths of hundreds of men . Which would've happened had the Lannister army attacked. Had they not attacked, people within the castle would've starved.

ALSo, why would Jaime not capture the blackfish?

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

I don't understand why people tries to turn Jaime as into another Barristan or Dayne, as if that somehow makes him bettter, when that only makes him as shitty as thoser are.

Why are barristan selmy and Arthur dayne shitty?

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25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Was he having internal conflicts when he threatened Edmure's baby and when he challenged the Blackfiish?? There is no point in decontextualize my words.

When he is threatening Edmure he is not saying what is in his head, he is desperately trying to get Edmure to surrender the castle so he doesn't have to break a vow.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

But how in the world he decides to keep his vow to Cat, he leads the army to take Riverrun, he challenges the Blackfish, he decies to storm the Castle, he threatens Edmure and then he sends men to capture the Blackfish?? What is reasonable of that?? Killing himself is reasonable as that would atone his sins?? Why?? 

I don't understand why people tries to turn Jaime as into another Barristan or Dayne, as if that somehow makes him bettter, when that only makes him as shitty as thoser are.

To keep one vow he has to break the other. He didn't want to lead the army at all, he was forced to. And when he did, he did everything possible to resolve the situation as peacefully as possible. 

When he challenged the Blackfish he was hoping the Blackfish would kill him.

We've gone over his decision to storm the castle above, and also his threats to Edmure.

I'm not sure why you would expect him to simply let the Blackfish escape and not go after him. He is a dangerous rebel and that was against the terms of the surrender.

I'm not sure what you mean in regards to killing himself. In no way am I arguing killing himself atones for anything he has done, it's an escape and a surrender and an easy way out. The point is he genuinely feels guilty and he is trying to do better.

 

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5 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except Jaime didn't justify his actions. Neither am I justifying all his bad decisions. Merely offering context, because in my opinion, Jaime deserves that context.

42 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc Jaime doesn¡t, which is even most glaring when fans do??

 

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If he just wanted to kill aerys, I wouldn't fault Jaime for that. Aerys was horrible.

Also, Jaime killed aerys because of the 'burn them all' thing.

He didn't,  Jaime was done with Aerys and that's why he killed him, he was enjoying the moment, not doing because any type of altruism.

 

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I don't understand what Jaime deciding to end his relationship with Cersei has to do with his vows. I also don't understand why is wrong for cheating to be a deal breaker.

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime would've kept banging Cersei  even when he still wanted to be a better person, keep to his vows, even when his KG vows are  against that, the only reason he ends that was the cheating.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except Jaime cares a lot about the oaths he swears. Most of his internal conflict is about those oaths.

57 minutes ago, frenin said:

When it suits him, depends on how he wakes up tho.

 

24 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except Jaime has given us plenty of reason to doubt his words. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but his deliberations about all his oaths is proof of it. His desire to be 'goldenhand the just' is proof of it.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Ah, and goldehand, or another Tywin, it really depends of the day, don't kill kids right??

 

34 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Resounding yes.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Nah, he was hiding behind those oaths.

 

35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

It is reasonable to threaten to kill a baby to avoid the deaths of hundreds of men . Which would've happened had the Lannister army attacked. Had they not attacked, people within the castle would've starved.

ALSo, why would Jaime not capture the blackfish?

It's reasonable to kill a baby to get the same thing right?? Riverrun would have not fallen from starvation, Brynden had made sure of that.

I suppose because of his oath, but as i said, it comes and goes.

 

37 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Why are barristan selmy and Arthur dayne shitty?

Barristan Selmy had known many kings. He had been born during the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, beloved by the common folk, had received his knighthood at his hands. Aegon's son Jaehaerys had bestowed the white cloak on him when he was three-and-twenty, after he slew Maelys the Monstrous during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. In that same cloak he had stood beside the Iron Throne as madness consumed Jaehaerys's son Aerys. Stood, and saw, and heard, and yet did nothing.
But no. That was not fair. He did his duty. Some nights, Ser Barristan wondered if he had not done that duty too well. He had sworn his vows before the eyes of gods and men, he could not in honor go against them … but the keeping of those vows had grown hard in the last years of King Aerys's reign. He had seen things that it pained him to recall, and more than once he wondered how much of the blood was on his own hands. If he had not gone into Duskendale to rescue Aerys from Lord Darklyn's dungeons, the king might well have died there as Tywin Lannister sacked the town. Then Prince Rhaegar would have ascended the Iron Throne, mayhaps to heal the realm. Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue
.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Makk said:

When he is threatening Edmure he is not saying what is in his head, he is desperately trying to get Edmure to surrender the castle so he doesn't have to break a vow.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

No, there is nothing in his head that cotradicts his lips, he's not having any trouble there.

 

 

53 minutes ago, Makk said:

To keep one vow he has to break the other. He didn't want to lead the army at all, he was forced to. And when he did, he did everything possible to resolve the situation as peacefully as possible. 

When he challenged the Blackfish he was hoping the Blackfish would kill him.

We've gone over his decision to storm the castle above, and also his threats to Edmure.

I'm not sure why you would expect him to simply let the Blackfish escape and not go after him. He is a dangerous rebel and that was against the terms of the surrender.

I'm not sure what you mean in regards to killing himself. In no way am I arguing killing himself atones for anything he has done, it's an escape and a surrender and an easy way out. The point is he genuinely feels guilty and he is trying to do better.

 

  •  I know, then why you keep saying that he upheld them, he didn't he chose.
  • Actually he was just falling in the bait and had the sense to not attack him.
  • We did.
  • That wasn't against the terms of surrender,  last time he checked Blackfish was a Tully.
  • Sometimes, sometimes not, just as sometimes he wants to be Goldenhand, sometimes he wants to be Tywin.
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6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Honestly I don't think too much about Lancel. What I'm saying he is still the same idiot he always was. And I would bet Lancel will do more stupid things for the high sparrow.

You have yet to name ONE stupid thing Lancel has done for the High Sparrow.

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Lancel bears some responsibility for his actions.

Sure.  But you have yet to identify one post-repentance action that was wrong.  Sound to me like you are trying to apply some tribalistic group-think smear logic, wherein Lancel is somehow responsible for OTHER people's actions

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Doesn't matter that the walk of atonement is accepted practice in the universe.

Since Lancel is in no way to blame for the Walk of Shame, absolutely.  It does not matter at all

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

If lancel is participating in cersei's slut shaming, I would blame him.

Well, he's not.  Name one thing Lancel did that qualifies as "slut shaming"?  He's there for one reason and for one reason alone … to guard and protect her from the mob.

Lancel no doubt considers Cersei a sinner, like himself.  But there is no indication he considers her a worse sinner than himself.  He tells your buddy Jaime that he USED to be angry at Cersei, but that now he forgives her.

But your buddy Jaime is not so forgiving.   He's still going with his "... and Moonboy for all I know ..." mantra.  He's the one who still has an issue with her sluttery

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

Except lancel wasn't paraded naked, against his will.

So what?  How does that give you anything on Lancel?  If you think he should have paraded naked against his will, why don't you go parade naked against your will and set a good example for him? 

Why are you blaming people for things entirely beyond their control?

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

What he went through is not the same as what cersei went through.

It's also not the same thing Theon went through.   Sorry that the universe is so unfair.  Maybe Lancel should make amends by cutting off his own cock. 

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

My point still remains, one of the allegations against Cersei is sleeping with Lancel. Him being her 'protector' is just wrong.

Why is it wrong?  Because you want her to be gang raped?

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I currently live in a world where women are slut shamed and discriminated against.

What?  Is Lancel responsible for that too? 

6 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

While I do not believe two wrongs make a right, unequal punishment for the same crime is problematic to say the least.

Maybe you should take that up with those passing the sentence.

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Jaime isn't really forced to do anything he doesn't want to do. He could have stayed in his tent and played with himself while they trotted out Edmure every morning. He could have gone Outlaw hunting (might have actually been a prudent thing to do in hindsight). Could have hung out in Raventree until their granary was crumbs. Hell he could have even refused to head out to the Riverlands himself, what was Cersei going to do? Hang him?

Point being, taking responsibility for restoring the king's peace was very much a choice and newly developed character trait. It is in contrast to this,

Quote

"If I were you? I would go west instead of east. Land in Dorne and raise my banners. The Seven Kingdoms will never be more ripe for conquest than they are right now. A boy king sits the Iron Throne. The north is in chaos, the riverlands a devastation, a rebel holds Storm's End and Dragonstone. When winter comes, the realm will starve. And who remains to deal with all of this, who rules the little king who rules the Seven Kingdoms? Why, my own sweet sister. There is no one else. My brother, Jaime, thirsts for battle, not for power. He's run from every chance he's had to rule.

Tyrion's take isn't wrong, it is just dated. The Jaime he knew has changed, he no longer thirsts for battle, runs from rule and is thinking about feeding the realm.

He's becoming the realm's protector, because Tywin died so someone has to, and no-one else is great enough for the challenge.

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22 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

He's becoming the realm's protector, because Tywin died so someone has to, and no-one else is great enough for the challenge.

Erhm... are you actually saying Tywin was “the realm’s protector”? And that he was “great”? Bloody hell, no wonder you have a low opinion of Jaime. 

I think Tywin was the worst person we’ve met (current timeline).

And two other things:

1 - Jaime isn’t n a “redemption arc”. He’s the same he’s always been. Evolving, changing, sure. But the point where readers start talking about his “redemption arc” is the point where we get his PoV. Do the maths.

2 - The whole flinging Edmure’s baby over RR’s walls, would he have done it, wouldn’t he have done it... pointless discussion because it’s clear from Jamie’s thoughts he hasn’t made up his mind yet. He sees the whole dumb as fuck situation w/ asswipe Ryman Frey threatening to hang Edmure every day, and every day taking him down from the gallows. He then says only a complete eejit would make threats he’s not ready to carry out. *Lightbulb idea*, rolls the dice, and it works. What he’d done of it hadn’t worked? We don’t know, b/c Jaime himself doesn’t know. 

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24 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Erhm... are you actually saying Tywin was “the realm’s protector”? And that he was “great”? Bloody hell, no wonder you have a low opinion of Jaime. 

I think Tywin was the worst person we’ve met (current timeline).

And two other things:

1 - Jaime isn’t n a “redemption arc”. He’s the same he’s always been. Evolving, changing, sure. But the point where readers start talking about his “redemption arc” is the point where we get his PoV. Do the maths.

2 - The whole flinging Edmure’s baby over RR’s walls, would he have done it, wouldn’t he have done it... pointless discussion because it’s clear from Jamie’s thoughts he hasn’t made up his mind yet. He sees the whole dumb as fuck situation w/ asswipe Ryman Frey threatening to hang Edmure every day, and every day taking him down from the gallows. He then says only a complete eejit would make threats he’s not ready to carry out. *Lightbulb idea*, rolls the dice, and it works. What he’d done of it hadn’t worked? We don’t know, b/c Jaime himself doesn’t know. 

Tywin is Great in terms of influence, reach. He is great in the terms Genna described him, as was the purpose of that paragraph. He was the realm's protector but he was also partisan and acted often in his personal interest, Jaime will be similar but transcend personal and tribal wants. He will be like Tyland in this respect and that's why GRRM makes a big deal out of the character's impartiality.

His arc is what I said it is multiple times, selfishness to servitude, redemption isn't so much the point but an inevitable aside.

Had it come to it Jaime would have killed the baby, that's the whole point of the making threats and carrying them out exchange with the Frey. And it is meant to be contrasted with Dany's taking of child hostages but refusing to do anything when tested. Though in Jaime's case it'd probably not come to it because he'd get himself killed in the fighting before hand so he didn't have to, he leaves himself death as an out a few times. It's a theme, death is the easy way out, a luxury Jaime won't be afforded, he is to suffer and serve.

In all honesty, I love Jaime, I think his is probably GRRM's best character work.

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8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Tywin is Great in terms of influence, reach. He is great in the terms Genna described him, as was the purpose of that paragraph. He was the realm's protector but he was also partisan and acted often in his personal interest, Jaime will be similar but transcend personal and tribal wants. He will be like Tyland in this respect and that's why GRRM makes a big deal out of the character's impartiality.

Tywin is a PoS, the most despicable character ever. And I don’t give two fucks what he achieved or didn’t achieve. Nothing justifies his actions. Nothing. 

8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

His arc is what I said it is multiple times, selfishness to servitude, redemption isn't so much the point but an inevitable aside.

Just coz you said it multiple times doesn’t make it so. 

8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Had it come to it Jaime would have killed the baby, that's the whole point of the making threats and carrying them out exchange with the Frey. And it is meant to be contrasted with Dany's taking of child hostages but refusing to do anything when tested. Though in Jaime's case it'd probably not come to it because he'd get himself killed in the fighting before hand so he didn't have to, he leaves himself death as an out a few times. It's a theme, death is the easy way out, a luxury Jaime won't be afforded, he is to suffer and serve.

Thing is, you don’t know that. You think you do, but you don’t. 

8 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

In all honesty, I love Jaime, I think his is probably GRRM's best character work.

We can agree here, he’s a great character. 

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13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Tywin is a PoS, the most despicable character ever. And I don’t give two fucks what he achieved or didn’t achieve. Nothing justifies his actions. Nothing. 

Ok. Personally I'm interested in the characters and arguments the text provides.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

1 - Jaime isn’t n a “redemption arc”. He’s the same he’s always been. Evolving, changing, sure. But the point where readers start talking about his “redemption arc” is the point where we get his PoV. Do the maths.

I don't agree with you about much, but I agree with this.

I am of the opinion that Jaime's arc is about to get even darker.  But that's just theory.  I would be hard pressed to prove that Jaime is any better or worse now than he ever was, based on what he has and has not done to date.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Tywin is a PoS, the most despicable character ever. And I don’t give two fucks what he achieved or didn’t achieve. Nothing justifies his actions. Nothing. 

Quote

Tywin and Jaime are pretty similar, they are both ruthless monsters, without honor, doing everything to fuffil their desire withou upholding any moral, oath, care or afection.

Jaime has just as many attrocities as Tywin, don't forget that Jaime has commited incest, and didn't care about his kids, took part on the whole Tysha situation and then lied to Tyrion about it, pushed a Bran from the window, tried to kill Arya in the trident, ambushed Ned on KG and fleed the city, together with Tywin was responsible for the start of the hostilities by attacking the riverlords, later on even he is surprised that he can't cry over the death of his father, and to get even better threatned to kill a baby...

Jaime is a monster, just like his father, he is trying to get away from this path but he is failing miserable at it.

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History will judge Tywin by his last actions - not his times as Lord of Casterly Rock and Hand of Aerys II. Like Otto Hightower he will be remembered as one of the worst Hands of all time because he helped to plunge the Realm into a devastating war - a war that still continues.

Jaime doesn't know what he wants. And he has no noble motives. He is motivated by petty jealousy and wounded pride (his issues with Cersei have nothing to do with her personality but Tyrion's claim she is fucking other men) and the desire to reinvent himself as a different man, to get rid of the Kingslayer moniker.

He is so detached from reality thanks to his great talent, beauty and insane privilege that he never really took the outside world seriously. This is why he actually thinks he did a good thing (!!!) when he took Riverrun by not shedding the blood of any Starks and Tullys. Nobody cares about that but him. And he is never going to explain himself to anyone because nobody has a right to judge him. Just as he never told anyone why he killed his king.

You also see this in his utterly selfish and disgusting desire to first marry Cersei and now destroy the lives of his own children by telling the truth about them. That's going to get them killed - and even if that wouldn't happen it would cost them wealth and privilege, reducing them to abominations born of incest (with the Doctrine of Exceptionalism not protecting Lannisters chances are not that bad that Tommen and/or Myrcella are going to be killed by angry crowds). The only Jaime cares in all of that is himself - he wants to be honest now for some reason. What exactly his reason is is unclear, but it seems to have to do with his personal issues with Cersei.

His Rhaegar-guilt is also a selfish thing - something that was defnitely triggered by the dream, but he has basically no good reason to want to make amends to that phantom rather than, you know, to the Starks for trying to murder Bran. Of course that's because George wants to do something with this Rhaegar-guilt of Jaime's - that's all over the place from AFfC onwards.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime has just as many attrocities as Tywin, don't forget that Jaime has commited incest

That as such is no crime I fault him for. He and Cersei loved each other. They should have the right to live their love. Him fucking the queen his sister behind the king's back and showing basically no shame in all that and willing participating in fathering three bastards on Cersei is another thing. How sick a person Jaime is - how little empathy he must feel - can be deduced from the mere fact that he could smile and 'serve' Robert for fifteen years.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

and didn't care about his kids

Here Cersei had some role in it, but Jaime is not only not a father to his children, he is also not even an uncle. He basically cut them out of his life entirely once it became clear he couldn't be their father and he didn't give a fig about them when he suggested he wanted to marry Cersei after his return! Also, his advice to Tommen after Tywin's funeral is abysmal. Instead of encouraging him to stand his ground and take charge of his life - which as the king he should learn soon in his life - he suggests that he ignore the outside world and distance himself from his own feelings and the ugly things that happened around him.

Jaime himself went away inside to often at the court of the Mad King - that's why he scores as high on the psychopathy check list as he does.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

took part on the whole Tysha situation and then lied to Tyrion about it

That one can sort of excuse by Tywin's authority. But then - Jaime was a grown man and KG by then so Tywin shouldn't have any jurisdiction about him whatsoever. Also, I doubt Jaime was involved in the raping of Tysha and what followed afterwards.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

pushed a Bran from the window, tried to kill Arya in the trident, ambushed Ned on KG and fleed the city, together with Tywin was responsible for the start of the hostilities by attacking the riverlords, later on even he is surprised that he can't cry over the death of his father, and to get even better threatned to kill a baby...

Jaime's inability (Cersei's as well) to feel grief for their father's death shows how fucked-up they are, how living under Tywin deformed and twisted them (although in Jaime's case living under Aerys II for three years also contributed to that to no small degree). They are all victims of their upbringing to a point - Tyrion was the best of them until ACoK and ASoS twisted him, too - although he definitely had severe issues before which essentially all go back to his dad. And Cersei, I think, is more functional than Jaime. She loves Jaime and her children, Jaime only himself and Cersei - at least until jealousy started to twist that love.

2 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Jaime is a monster, just like his father, he is trying to get away from this path but he is failing miserable at it.

I think he will end up in camp Aegon trying to destroy both Cersei and Daenerys/Tyrion, becoming one of the worst politicians/Kingsguard/men in the history of Westeros. And he will never understand to what degree he fucked everything up.

I'd also not be surprised in the slightest if he started a sequence of events that leads directly to the deaths of both Tommen and Myrcella - possibly by giving in to Cat's demands to publicly acknowledge his children as his own. He wanted to do that anyway, but actually doing it is, I think, the only way how he could save his own life now.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I think he will end up in camp Aegon trying to destroy both Cersei and Daenerys/Tyrion, becoming one of the worst politicians/Kingsguard/men in the history of Westeros. And he will never understand to what degree he fucked everything up.

I'd also not be surprised in the slightest if he started a sequence of events that leads directly to the deaths of both Tommen and Myrcella - possibly by giving in to Cat's demands to publicly acknowledge his children as his own. He wanted to do that anyway, but actually doing it is, I think, the only way how he could save his own life now

I think that this is not possible, Aegon will never be able to trust Jaime and if the Kingslayer showed up on his camp it would only hurt his efforts to promote himself as a good and capable leader while being surounded by scum. Aegon will pose as savior after the Usurper and his offspring drived the realm into shambless, not to mention that his main ally will be Doran, the man that has all the reasons to hate the Lannisters.

I would also not be surprised if Jaime started the sequence of events that leads to Tommen and Myrcella's death, but I expect Cersei to be the one doing it. 

, I really don't like this idea, of Jaime surviving his meeting with LHS with some deal or rationalization, the last thing Catelyn heard before Robb being killed was "Jaime Lannister sends his regards"... sparing him seems really off no matter what he offers her, and in the end his words has no weight anyway. 

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