Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.

[Apoplexy]

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're free to believe it or not, but we do know Jaime was rose tinting things there.

I wholeheartedly disagree. We are not reading the same text it seems. But that's fine.

39 minutes ago, frenin said:

If that means their de facto death is a pretty bad thing, it doesn't suit  Jaime, it's just a whim Jaime has, without stopping to realize  or caring too much about the repercusions, if his idea is just repeat but Targs, he'd end up like Aenys.

Except Jaime does think about the repercussions. He knows his children will have to give up the crown. He is actively trying to think of the best way forward, without resulting in his children's death.

 

53 minutes ago, frenin said:

He went there to put some sense in Lancel, he didn't believe Tyrion words  until Lancel confessed.

I completely disagree. Again, it's like we are reading two different texts. That's fine.

55 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, since Jaime had already broken that oath,  the Blackfish is just the non excusable example.

If you are saying Jaime broke his oath by capturing riverrun, we again disagree completely.

56 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc, because pre maimed Jaime had a thoroughly conscious...

He did have a conscience pre maiming. We get to see it as soon as we get a Jaime POv in ASOS. His very first chapter has him not killing brienne when he could have very easily.

[frenin]

15 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I wholeheartedly disagree. We are not reading the same text it seems. But that's fine.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

I mean, we literally see him rose tinting his memories, i don't understand how you can disagree.

 

16 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except Jaime does think about the repercussions. He knows his children will have to give up the crown. He is actively trying to think of the best way forward, without resulting in his children's death.

 

Is he?? This is what Jaime thoughts and says about the matter.

 

Perhaps Stannis Baratheon and the Starks had done him a kindness. They had spread their tale of incest all over the Seven Kingdoms, so there was nothing left to hide. Why shouldn’t I marry Cersei openly and share her bed every night? The dragons always married their sisters. Septons, lords, and smallfolk had turned a blind eye to the Targaryens for hundreds of years, let them do the same for House Lannister. It would play havoc with Joffrey’s claim to the crown, to be sure, but in the end it had been swords that had won the Iron Throne for Robert, and swords could keep Joffrey there as well, regardless of whose seed he was. We could marry him to Myrcella, once we’ve sent Sansa Stark back to her mother. That would show the realm that the Lannisters are above their laws, like gods and Targaryens. Jaime had decided that he would return Sansa, and the younger girl as well if she could be found. It was not like to win him back his lost honor, but the notion of keeping faith when they all expected betrayal amused him more than he could say.

 

“This was folly.” Cersei pulled her gown straight. “With Father in the castle … Jaime, we must be careful.” “I am sick of being careful. The Targaryens wed brother to sister, why shouldn’t we do the same? Marry me, Cersei. Stand up before the realm and say it’s me you want. We’ll have our own wedding feast, and make another son in place of Joffrey.” She drew back. “That’s not funny.” “Do you hear me chuckling?” “Did you leave your wits at Riverrun?” Her voice had an edge to it. “Tommen’s throne derives from Robert, you know that.” “He’ll have Casterly Rock, isn’t that enough? Let Father sit the throne. All I want is you.” He made to touch her cheek. Old habits die hard, and it was his right arm he lifted. Cersei recoiled from his stump. “Don’t … don’t talk like this. You’re scaring me, Jaime. Don’t be stupid. One wrong word and you’ll cost us everything. What did they do to you?” “They cut off my hand.” “No, it’s more, you’re changed.” She backed off a step. “We’ll talk later. On the morrow. I have Sansa Stark’s maids in a tower cell, I need to question them … you should go to Father.” “I crossed a thousand leagues to come to you, and lost the best part of me along the way. Don’t tell me to leave.” “Leave me,” she repeated, turning away.

 

What should i say about his reasonings besides that they are suicidal,very  stupid and incredibly selfish??

 

 

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I completely disagree. Again, it's like we are reading two different texts. That's fine.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't how.

 

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

If you are saying Jaime broke his oath by capturing riverrun, we again disagree completely.

3 hours ago, frenin said:

Again, i don't know how since he took up arms against the Tullys but there would always be loopholes i guess.

 

 

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

He did have a conscience pre maiming. We get to see it as soon as we get a Jaime POv in ASOS. His very first chapter has him not killing brienne when he could have very easily.

Pre maimed Jaime only cared about his father, Tyrion and Cersei, 

Had Cersei remembered him afterward and hired this man Lady Catelyn spoke of, to make sure the boy never woke? If she wanted him dead she would have sent me. And it is not like her to chose a catspaw who would make such a royal botch of the killing.

I don't even know what you argue, i never said that Jaime was blond Gregor, but Jaime himself considers that he would've killed Bran had Cersei decided it, there is no crack in there, you're the one refusing to acknowledge it because you don't like the idea.

[TPTWP Timett]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Jaime helps him destroy Tommen and Myrcella - which he would by revealing their true parentage - he certainly could use him. Keep in mind that Aerys II was merely Aegon's grandfather, not his father. He is under no real obligation to avenge him, even more so since Aerys II actually passed over Aegon in the line of succession in favor of Viserys III. Not to mention that Aerys II also used Elia and her children as hostages rather than treat them like family.

Cersei is not going to reveal their true parentage to the world. We can be pretty sure that Jaime is going to do that if he gets the chance since he already made it clear he intended to do that. And if that happens it is going to get them killed. Cersei might also do things that might help her children to get killed, but she will also try to protect them.

Sure, but if there is no deal of sorts Jaime is just dead. And if George wanted to kill him he should and would have done so in ADwD. All he would have needed to wrap up his story would have been another Jaime or Brienne chapter.

But Jamie was never going to just say "hey the king's kids they're mine lol." He intended to marry Cersei and use Lannister force to make everyone accept it proving the lion equal to the dragon. If he could pull it off is irrelevant he wasn't just openly endangering his children. He's dishonorable in all kinds of ways but that doesn't mean he never did anything right.

[Apoplexy]

8 hours ago, frenin said:

I mean, we literally see him rose tinting his memories, i don't understand how you can disagree

Jaime clearly in his exchange with brienne says he was given an order to kill his own father. And then rossart was sent to ignite the wildfire stores. So he killed rossart and then killed aerys before he could give someone else an order to ignite the wildfire. I don't understand what part here was a lie or an embellishment.

ALSo, we cannot literally see anything about Jaime. He is a fictional character.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

is he?? This is what Jaime thoughts and says about the matter.

In the text you quoted, Jaime is planning to marry Cersei and use the Lannister army to defend his children and Cersei. so yes, he has thought about it a lot. None of this is a whim.

Cersei on the otherhand does not want to marry Jaime at the risk of losing the crown. so no, Jaime isn't taking any of this lightly.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

What should i say about his reasonings besides that they are suicidal,very  stupid and incredibly selfish??

I would say there was a chance he could pull it off. So his plan wasn't suicidal, the Lannister money could buy them protection, it wasn't stupid and it was far from selfish. Jaime personally wouldn't gain anything, except for a wife. And I wouldn't call wanting to marry Cersei as selfish.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Again, i don't know how since he took up arms against the Tullys but there would always be loopholes i guess.

I'm disagreeing that he took up arms against the tullys, so loopholes don't apply here.

8 hours ago, frenin said:

Pre maimed Jaime only cared about his father, Tyrion and Cersei, 

Had Cersei remembered him afterward and hired this man Lady Catelyn spoke of, to make sure the boy never woke? If she wanted him dead she would have sent me. And it is not like her to chose a catspaw who would make such a royal botch of the killing.

I don't even know what you argue, i never said that Jaime was blond Gregor, but Jaime himself considers that he would've killed Bran had Cersei decided it, there is no crack in there, you're the one refusing to acknowledge it because you don't like the idea.

When did I say Jaime wouldn't try to kill bran? He literally did that by pushing him out the tower window. I'm not saying he wouldn't finish the job if he could.

My argument is that he wouldn't kill edmure's child. Bran was a threat to Cersei and his children, edmure's child wasn't a threat to anyone, so there is no reason for Jaime to want to kill him.

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, TPTWP Timett said:

But Jamie was never going to just say "hey the king's kids they're mine lol." He intended to marry Cersei and use Lannister force to make everyone accept it proving the lion equal to the dragon. If he could pull it off is irrelevant he wasn't just openly endangering his children. He's dishonorable in all kinds of ways but that doesn't mean he never did anything right.

That was his plan in between - right now he plans to just tell his children and the world that he is their father and thus ruin their life.

[frenin]

14 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime clearly in his exchange with brienne says he was given an order to kill his own father. And then rossart was sent to ignite the wildfire stores. So he killed rossart and then killed aerys before he could give someone else an order to ignite the wildfire. I don't understand what part here was a lie or an embellishment.

ALSo, we cannot literally see anything about Jaime. He is a fictional character.

When he killed Aerys,  the Lannister men are already in the Red Keep, to the point that he can't even disappear after killing Aerys, the idea that he had to kill Aerys, who was literally alone in the Throne room, is also stupid, if he had just knocked him out, what do you think would've happened??

We see Jaime's memories, he went there to kill Aerys, taste the fear in his eyes, he took his sweet time, he wasn't there to save anyone.

 

 

20 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

In the text you quoted, Jaime is planning to marry Cersei and use the Lannister army to defend his children and Cersei. so yes, he has thought about it a lot. None of this is a whim.

Cersei on the otherhand does not want to marry Jaime at the risk of losing the crown. so no, Jaime isn't taking any of this lightly.

And do you think the Lannister army would protect the abominations?? Why, exactly?? Don't you that if all Westeros see them as abominations, that would end badly?? 

Jaime's idea is stupid, the moment he says, the Targs did it too so we can do it, you see that he's blind by arrogance, Cersei says to him, Jaime's plan is going to cost  them their lives, but Jaime don't care.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I would say there was a chance he could pull it off. So his plan wasn't suicidal, the Lannister money could buy them protection, it wasn't stupid and it was far from selfish. Jaime personally wouldn't gain anything, except for a wife. And I wouldn't call wanting to marry Cersei as selfish.

There was no chance that he could pull anything off, they would've been killed even in Casterly Rock, Westerosi consider incest is abomination, that can only end very bad.

It was stupid, it was insane and  it was selfish because Jaime is jumpin to his death and is willing to drag everyone... 

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I'm disagreeing that he took up arms against the tullys, so loopholes don't apply here.

He just took an army against Riverrun.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

When did I say Jaime wouldn't try to kill bran? He literally did that by pushing him out the tower window. I'm not saying he wouldn't finish the job if he could.

My argument is that he wouldn't kill edmure's child. Bran was a threat to Cersei and his children, edmure's child wasn't a threat to anyone, so there is no reason for Jaime to want to kill him.

And he would do that in a heartbeat, just because Cersei would want him dead, Jaime would've killed him to prove a point, to prove his words arent hollow, as simple as that. We see Jaime bluffing with the Blackfish, we don't see any of that there, the guy meant every word.

[Arthur Peres]

9 hours ago, frenin said:

Pre maimed Jaime only cared about his father, Tyrion and Cersei, 

Had Cersei remembered him afterward and hired this man Lady Catelyn spoke of, to make sure the boy never woke? If she wanted him dead she would have sent me. And it is not like her to chose a catspaw who would make such a royal botch of the killing.

Even that is debatable, since Jaime had no emotion about his father death, and post maimed Jaime only cares about Brienne.

[Apoplexy]

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

When he killed Aerys,  the Lannister men are already in the Red Keep, to the point that he can't even disappear after killing Aerys, the idea that he had to kill Aerys, who was literally alone in the Throne room, is also stupid, if he had just knocked him out, what do you think would've happened??

We see Jaime's memories, he went there to kill Aerys, taste the fear in his eyes, he took his sweet time, he wasn't there to save anyone.

If Jaime had just knocked him out, aerys would've been killed by the Lannisters, under the order of tywin lannister.

If you say Jaime didn't care about the people of KL and only killed aerys to watch the fear in his eyes, which I completely disagree with, I wouldn't blame Jaime for it. Aerys was horrible.

38 minutes ago, frenin said:

And do you think the Lannister army would protect the abominations?? Why, exactly?? Don't you that if all Westeros see them as abominations, that would end badly?? 

Jaime's idea is stupid, the moment he says, the Targs did it too so we can do it, you see that he's blind by arrogance, Cersei says to him, Jaime's plan is going to cost  them their lives, but Jaime don't care.

Power, money and military strength count for a lot in westeros. The targs kept up with their incest in westeros because they had dragons and no one could overthrow them. Even when all the dragons died, they were still kings and not overthrown as they had money and power. And by this point westeros is more used to incest because of 300 years of targ rule. So yes, Jaime could pull it off with Lannister money.

Why would the Lannister army support 'abominations '? Because they are paid by the grandfather of said 'abominations '.

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

There was no chance that he could pull anything off, they would've been killed even in Casterly Rock, Westerosi consider incest is abomination, that can only end very bad.

It was stupid, it was insane and  it was selfish because Jaime is jumpin to his death and is willing to drag everyone... 

Read above comment.

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

He just took an army against Riverrun.

No he didnt. They siege at riverrun wasn't laid by Jaime. He was sent to resolve the issue.

47 minutes ago, frenin said:

And he would do that in a heartbeat, just because Cersei would want him dead, Jaime would've killed him to prove a point, to prove his words arent hollow, as simple as that. We see Jaime bluffing with the Blackfish, we don't see any of that there, the guy meant every word.

Cersei would want Edmure's child dead? WHy?

Even if she did, Jaime wouldn't do it, and definitely not for cersei.

[Apoplexy]

21 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Even that is debatable, since Jaime had no emotion about his father death, and post maimed Jaime only cares about Brienne.

Except we don't have a Jaime POV for too long before his maiming. His very first chapter in a ASOS shows he is a conscientious person. He has made a lot of mistakes, but he isn't just plain morally reprehensible.

And post maiming, he does care about other people. He is trying to ensure that no women are raped in his camps. He advices Peck to treat the women he is sleeping with respectfully. Him not being moved by his father's death is whole different discussion, and not unexpectedly considering the kind of father Tywin was.

[frenin]

30 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 

 

31 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If Jaime had just knocked him out, aerys would've been killed by the Lannisters, under the order of tywin lannister.

If you say Jaime didn't care about the people of KL and only killed aerys to watch the fear in his eyes, which I completely disagree with, I wouldn't blame Jaime for it. Aerys was horrible.

But he wouldn't have to kill him himself, Aerys was se good as dead, the chances that he could send someone to carry the message are zero, since he was literally alone uin the Throne room and  the Lannisters were already there.

Jaime cared about the people in KL... Or his father's men lives, that's why he killed Rossart, Aerys was completely powerless when he killed him and he took his sweet time to do it.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Power, money and military strength count for a lot in westeros. The targs kept up with their incest in westeros because they had dragons and no one could overthrow them. Even when all the dragons died, they were still kings and not overthrown as they had money and power. And by this point westeros is more used to incest because of 300 years of targ rule. So yes, Jaime could pull it off with Lannister money.

Why would the Lannister army support 'abominations '? Because they are paid by the grandfather of said 'abominations '.

No, he couldn't, the Targs could commit incest because of the Exceptionalism, which used Westeros to the notion of only Incest between Targs.

There is a reason why everyone says abomination and  only Jaime says but the Targs...  

Jaime couldn't even count with a military sthrengh since no one would support them and no, Tywin don't pay no one.

 

40 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

 No he didnt. They siege at riverrun wasn't laid by Jaime. He was sent to resolve the issue.

He did, he took command of the siege, or isnt Jaime the one who threatened  Edmure??

 

 

43 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Cersei would want Edmure's child dead? WHy?

Even if she did, Jaime wouldn't do it, and definitely not for cersei.

Because again, He has shown unwillingness or incapability to see dead kids. Right.

[Apoplexy]

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

But he wouldn't have to kill him himself, Aerys was se good as dead, the chances that he could send someone to carry the message are zero, since he was literally alone uin the Throne room and  the Lannisters were already there.

Jaime cared about the people in KL... Or his father's men lives, that's why he killed Rossart, Aerys was completely powerless when he killed him and he took his sweet time to do it.

So do we agree that Jaime killed rossart to prevent KL from burning down?

As for aerys, yes there is only a small chance he could find someone else to do the deed, but we don't know how many people were near the throne room at that point. If someone was hiding outside, all aerys would need to do was yell and they would set off. The most foolproof option was killing aerys.

Also, if Jaime only killed aerys to see him scared and powerless, I don't blame him.

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

No, he couldn't, the Targs could commit incest because of the Exceptionalism, which used Westeros to the notion of only Incest between Targs.

There is a reason why everyone says abomination and  only Jaime says but the Targs...  

Jaime couldn't even count with a military sthrengh since no one would support them and no, Tywin don't pay no one.

That's the problem with exceptionalism, people take exception to it, just like Jaime did. We have no proof that no single house in westeros would accept that the Lord and lady of casterly rock are siblings. Some houses could support them just to curry favor with the Lannisters, even if they find incest deplorable and children of incest abominations.

You do realize the Lannister army is called the 'Lannister army' because the Lannisters pay them, right?

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

He did, he took command of the siege, or isnt Jaime the one who threatened  Edmure??

Exactly my point. Jaime took command of the seige, broke it without taking up arms by simply threatening edmure.

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because again, He has shown unwillingness or incapability to see dead kids. Right.

Jaime has shown the capacity to kill a kid, Bran. Which other kids has he killed or ordered to be killed?

[Aline de Gavrillac]

It's an interesting theory.  I can give you that much.  Much was written of Jaime's handsomeness and his prowess with the sword.  The sword part got taken away.  His looks might be next and that is possible.  However, I have not interpreted that in his personal plot.  His appearance is no longer important because a missing hand takes away the beauty. Jaime is crippled because he took away Bran's legs.  Bran lost his dream of ever becoming a knight. Jaime will not get to earn his honor.  I do not buy the connection to Sunfyre. 

[Arthur Peres]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Except we don't have a Jaime POV for too long before his maiming. His very first chapter in a ASOS shows he is a conscientious person. He has made a lot of mistakes, but he isn't just plain morally reprehensible.

And post maiming, he does care about other people. He is trying to ensure that no women are raped in his camps. He advices Peck to treat the women he is sleeping with respectfully. Him not being moved by his father's death is whole different discussion, and not unexpectedly considering the kind of father Tywin was.

It doesn't matter what kind of men Tywin was, the point is even people Jaime claims to care about, in the end he is incapable of doing so and even he is surprised.

Jaime stopping a raping is the very least I would expect of anyone, Randyll tarly did the same and his far from a good person as he was willing to kill his own son.

[Apoplexy]

16 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

It doesn't matter what kind of men Tywin was, the point is even people Jaime claims to care about, in the end he is incapable of doing so and even he is surprised.

Jaime stopping a raping is the very least I would expect of anyone, Randyll tarly did the same and his far from a good person as he was willing to kill his own son.

Jaime never claimed to love or care about Tywin.

You said Jaime didn't care about anyone but brienne post maiming. The fact that Jaime bothered to try to stop rapes of common women (which I doubt randyl tarly would care about) shows that does care about other people, and not just nobles, but the powerless as well. Whether you think he is good man or not is besides the point.

[frenin]

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

So do we agree that Jaime killed rossart to prevent KL from burning down?

As for aerys, yes there is only a small chance he could find someone else to do the deed, but we don't know how many people were near the throne room at that point. If someone was hiding outside, all aerys would need to do was yell and they would set off. The most foolproof option was killing aerys.

Also, if Jaime only killed aerys to see him scared and powerless, I don't blame him.

Never argued against that.

 

Those people were literally dying and  Aerys believed Rossart was doing his bid  anyway,  when Jaime enters  in the Throne room Aerys is literally on his own, he could've just knocked him out he killed him because he wanted to do it.

 

I

22 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

That's the problem with exceptionalism, people take exception to it, just like Jaime did. We have no proof that no single house in westeros would accept that the Lord and lady of casterly rock are siblings. Some houses could support them just to curry favor with the Lannisters, even if they find incest deplorable and children of incest abominations.

You do realize the Lannister army is called the 'Lannister army' because the Lannisters pay them, right?

Like whom?? Using the "prove The negative" is silly, the Targs had dragons and  still took Balerion and  Exceptionalism to bend Westeros, everyone who talks about non Targs incest, even with the free  folk, talks about abomination yet your whole argument is  as ignorantiam.

Jaime is literally the only stupid and  arrogant enough, "we'll show them the Lannisters like the Targs are above gods and  men" to think that is possible, everyone knows that is a suicide path. 

 

Hmm, the Lannister army, like the Baratheon army and  the Tyrell army and  every Westerosi army dont work like that.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Exactly my point. Jaime took command of the seige, broke it without taking up arms by simply threatening edmure.

The loopholes you insist  you're not using, only by taking  commamd of the army, he is taking up arms  upon the Tullys, just as it is sending men after Brynden.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Jaime has shown the capacity to kill a kid, Bran. Which other kids has he killed or ordered to be killed?

Jaime shown willingness to kill kids, period. You're the one arguing that perfectly defines p thoughts are indeed false.

Your arguing against the text  there.

[Apoplexy]

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Never argued against that.

Good. I asked because I wanted to know what exactly your stance was. Thanks for clearing that up.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Those people were literally dying and  Aerys believed Rossart was doing his bid  anyway,  when Jaime enters  in the Throne room Aerys is literally on his own, he could've just knocked him out he killed him because he wanted to do it.

If I'm not mistaken, aerys saw rossart die. ROSsart was with aerys when Jaime found them, so there is no reason to believe aerys didn't know he was dead. And if so, aerys could have easily yelled out a command even if he was alone in the throne room to someone outside.

As I've said before, knocking him out was moot because he would die later anyways. 

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Like whom?? Using the "prove The negative" is silly, the Targs had dragons and  still took Balerion and  Exceptionalism to bend Westeros, everyone who talks about non Targs incest, even with the free  folk, talks about abomination yet your whole argument is  as ignorantiam.

Any lesser lord who wants a higher station could support the lannisters.

It's not a 'prove the negative'. The lannisters, during Roberts rebellion, waited out most of the war to decide which side they were on. Tywin Lannister wouldve supported the targs if Robert's side looked like it would lose, despite of hating aerys. 

I dislike real world examples, because westeros is not the real world, but I would direct you to elections in countries that have parliamentary systems of government. It is not uncommon for parties with ideologically opposite views to form coalitions to form government, just so they get power.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime is literally the only stupid and  arrogant enough, "we'll show them the Lannisters like the Targs are above gods and  men" to think that is possible, everyone knows that is a suicide path. 

Except the plan could work. Read above post.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hmm, the Lannister army, like the Baratheon army and  the Tyrell army and  every Westerosi army dont work like that.

How does it work then? Please explain.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

The loopholes you insist  you're not using, only by taking  commamd of the army, he is taking up arms  upon the Tullys, just as it is sending men after Brynden.

That is not a loophole. Taking command of a siege is not taking up arms unless you fight.

Please explain to me how could Jaime fulfil his his oath to catelyn in the case of the siege at riverrun. Based on your stance, the only way this couldve been was if Jaime never came to riverrun. Please elaborate.

20 minutes ago, frenin said:

Jaime shown willingness to kill kids, period. You're the one arguing that perfectly defines p thoughts are indeed false.

Your arguing against the text  there.

Please tell where in text does Jaime try to kill a child that is not bran. And again, threatening or ideating is not the same as doing.

[Dreadscythe95]

On 11/30/2019 at 5:00 AM, Lord Varys said:

If he ends up gravitating into team Aegon (result of all his Rhaegar guilt and the - inadvertent? - result of the weirwood dream) I can see him becoming a second Criston Cole - which means he would likely be the worst Kingsguard/knight ever, and a major architect of the Second Dance of the Dragons.

Jaime is a very fun character to read, but he is one of the worst people out there. He only cares about himself, is perhaps the most narcissistic character out there (Cersei at least cares about her children but Jaime only cares about himself).

I dagree. After AFFC Jaimie has shown big change. Is he selfish? Yes. All humans are selfish anyway. Of course Jaimie is ginna still care for the weel being of his own house and family. Still, he has show that he deeply cares abiut Brienne and about what people think of him, even if he tries to act otherwise. Jaimie is just a character that was misjudged in the past and he has used the hate he has received as a shield with a bad attitude and vanity.

[frenin]

37 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If I'm not mistaken, aerys saw rossart die. ROSsart was with aerys when Jaime found them, so there is no reason to believe aerys didn't know he was dead. And if so, aerys could have easily yelled out a command even if he was alone in the throne room to someone outside.

As I've said before, knocking him out was moot because he would die later anyways. 

You're. Rossart was killed before, Jaime went to the Throne room, Aerys wanted to know whose was his sword's blood, he said Rossart, then he kills  him.

There was no one outside who wasn't dying at the moment and  Jaime knew it, hell Jaime had time to change his armor.  If the man was in such a hurry, his priorities are incredibly odd.

 

Yes, Aerys was as good as dead, that doesn't mean Jaime had to kill him, precisely Jaime didn't have to kill him 

 

37 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Any lesser lord who wants a higher station could support the lannisters.

It's not a 'prove the negative'. The lannisters, during Roberts rebellion, waited out most of the war to decide which side they were on. Tywin Lannister wouldve supported the targs if Robert's side looked like it would lose, despite of hating aerys. 

I dislike real world examples, because westeros is not the real world, but I would direct you to elections in countries that have parliamentary systems of government. It is not uncommon for parties with ideologically opposite views to form coalitions to form government, just so they get power.

Like whom?? Because everyone thought of incest as abomination.

It's entirely proving a negative, not even Jaime knows how is he going to so it, just that he would do it because the Targs pulled it off, he forgets the dragons part but who cares. 

Your strawman is also very weird, this is not a politic  problem, is a moral and  religious one, Cersei's kids would've been killed and  no one doubts that. There is a reason why the Exceptionalism had to be created, or don't you think there would not be Houses that would side with the dragons??

 

 

37 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except the plan could work. Read above post.

I read it, it's stupid and  arrogant just as everyone knows what Cersei's kids would be. Only Jaime, and  you, think that there would be a positive outcome.

 

38 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

How does it work then? Please explain.

It's Feudalism, there isn't so much to explakn, armies are personal, every House has its  own army formed by smallfolk mostly and  knights, every House sworn fealty to an overlord. What you call, Lannister army, is all The Westerlands Houses army, there is a reason why the Karstark soldiers abandon Robb when he kills  Rickard.

 

43 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

That is not a loophole. Taking command of a siege is not taking up arms unless you fight.

Please explain to me how could Jaime fulfil his his oath to catelyn in the case of the siege at riverrun. Based on your stance, the only way this couldve been was if Jaime never came to riverrun. Please elaborate.

It's a loophole, taking the command of a siege to oust the Tullys is the very definition of taking up arms  against them.

Ofc that if Jaime wanted or cared about fullfil that he should never ser a food in the Riverlands, the moment he did, the moment his oaths became wind.

 

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Please tell where in text does Jaime try to kill a child that is not bran. And again, threatening or ideating is not the same as doing.

Is the same as being willing to do so.

[Apoplexy]

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

You're. Rossart was killed before, Jaime went to the Throne room, Aerys wanted to know whose was his sword's blood, he said Rossart, then he kills  him.

There was no one outside who wasn't dying at the moment and  Jaime knew it, hell Jaime had time to change his armor.  If the man was in such a hurry, his priorities are incredibly odd.

 

Yes, Aerys was as good as dead, that doesn't mean Jaime had to kill him, precisely Jaime didn't have to kill him 

He changed his armor and then killed rossart and aerys. While changing his armor, he did not know what aerys and rossart were upto as I think his messenger came to him after he changed. So there was no way for him to know how many people could have been around the throne room. Again, I'm not saying I know there was someone outside. I'm saying there could have been, which is why killing aerys was important.

And no, Jaime didn't have to kill aerys. I just think it wasn't wrong for Jaime to kill him.

45 minutes ago, frenin said:

Like whom?? Because everyone thought of incest as abomination.

It's entirely proving a negative, not even Jaime knows how is he going to so it, just that he would do it because the Targs pulled it off, he forgets the dragons part but who cares. 

Your strawman is also very weird, this is not a politic  problem, is a moral and  religious one, Cersei's kids would've been killed and  no one doubts that. There is a reason why the Exceptionalism had to be created, or don't you think there would not be Houses that would side with the dragons??

So is your argument that lords of westeros are so religious that they would pick religious morality over getting money and power? Are you saying lords of westeros are not opportunistic?

48 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's Feudalism, there isn't so much to explakn, armies are personal, every House has its  own army formed by smallfolk mostly and  knights, every House sworn fealty to an overlord. What you call, Lannister army, is all The Westerlands Houses army, there is a reason why the Karstark soldiers abandon Robb when he kills  Rickard.

So are you saying that the Lannisters have no personal army and their army is exclusively formed from men paid by the rest of the houses of the westerlands?

51 minutes ago, frenin said:

I read it, it's stupid and  arrogant just as everyone knows what Cersei's kids would be. Only Jaime, and  you, think that there would be a positive outcome.

We disagree.

52 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's a loophole, taking the command of a siege to oust the Tullys is the very definition of taking up arms  against them.

Ofc that if Jaime wanted or cared about fullfil that he should never ser a food in the Riverlands, the moment he did, the moment his oaths became wind.

We disagree completely.

In addition, I would argue that if Jaime hadn't intervened, most people inside riverrun would be dead, including probably the blackfish. The freys has botched the situation badly.

56 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is the same as being willing to do so.

We disagree again. We have completely different readings of the same text.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

He changed his armor and then killed rossart and aerys. While changing his armor, he did not know what aerys and rossart were upto as I think his messenger came to him after he changed. So there was no way for him to know how many people could have been around the throne room. Again, I'm not saying I know there was someone outside. I'm saying there could have been, which is why killing aerys was important.

And no, Jaime didn't have to kill aerys. I just think it wasn't wrong for Jaime to kill him.

A curious thing, while someone who is so in rush to save everyone, he had time to change his armour, he kills Rossart when he hears that he was with Aerys, true enough,  but that's it, when he goes after Aerys, he finds him alone in the Throne and there was no one around to yell orders, if the orders were yelled it would've been long before Jaime even reached the Throne room, so killing Aerys to stop whatever order he might give is simply a very convenient rationalization and i can assure you that knocking him out hets the job just as done. And thereis no one outside,  not only because Jaime would've seen them but because Jaime hoped to let someone stel the deed.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

So is your argument that lords of westeros are so religious that they would pick religious morality over getting money and power? Are you saying lords of westeros are not opportunistic?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

I'm saying that there is a limit for opportunism, i'm saying that precisely because of opportunism, everyone would want the Lannisters dead, after that they can just take Casterly Rock.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

So are you saying that the Lannisters have no personal army and their army is exclusively formed from men paid by the rest of the houses of the westerlands?

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Every House has a personal army, but thos 30k Lannister army or those 60k Tyrell army, are not really theis, they are swown to them.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree.

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Again, you disagree with the text,  where the only one who  thinks i's possible is Jaime, every other knows that's a death sentence.

And Jaime whole rationalization is entirely, if the Targs could do it, i can do it, which stupid, arrogant and selfish.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree completely.

In addition, I would argue that if Jaime hadn't intervened, most people inside riverrun would be dead, including probably the blackfish. The freys has botched the situation badly.

I mean, the meaning is what it is.

So?? He stillbroke his oath.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree again. We have completely different readings of the same text.

It seems,  because where Jaime says, I would've killed a kid, you don't seem to read that.