Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.

[Apoplexy]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

A curious thing, while someone who is so in rush to save everyone, he had time to change his armour, he kills Rossart when he hears that he was with Aerys, true enough,  but that's it, when he goes after Aerys, he finds him alone in the Throne and there was no one around to yell orders, if the orders were yelled it would've been long before Jaime even reached the Throne room, so killing Aerys to stop whatever order he might give is simply a very convenient rationalization and i can assure you that knocking him out hets the job just as done. And thereis no one outside,  not only because Jaime would've seen them but because Jaime hoped to let someone stel the deed.

The whole change of armor was to show he was acting as a Lannister not a KG.

Also, as I've said before, even if there was no one for aerys to give the command to ignite the wildfire, I would still say Jaime wasn't wrong to kill aerys.

16 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'm saying that there is a limit for opportunism, i'm saying that precisely because of opportunism, everyone would want the Lannisters dead, after that they can just take Casterly Rock.

Except the Lannisters are pretty strong and wealthy at the time Jaime asks Cersei to marry him. If you say the Lannisters were vulnerable then, we disagree.

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

Every House has a personal army, but thos 30k Lannister army or those 60k Tyrell army, are not really theis, they are swown to them.

There's a difference between the Lannister army and the Lannister forces, true. But due to all the money the Lannisters have, they have a larger army to begin with and more resources to raise a new host or buy mercenaries, as compared to other houses in the westerlands. Plus, they have resources to bribe the other lords. Staging a coup against the lannisters would be really hard to pull off and extremely stupid.

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Again, you disagree with the text,  where the only one who  thinks i's possible is Jaime, every other knows that's a death sentence.

And Jaime whole rationalization is entirely, if the Targs could do it, i can do it, which stupid, arrogant and selfish.

You are free to believe this. Since it didn't happen, I cannot prove that it could be done. But I completely disagree.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

I mean, the meaning is what it is.

So?? He stillbroke his oath.

We disagree on what the definition of 'taking up arms' is. So I say Jaime kept his oath.

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

It seems,  because where Jaime says, I would've killed a kid, you don't seem to read that. 

Nowhere is text does it say that Jaime wanted to kill edmure's baby. Show me where it says Jaime was serious about that threat.

[frenin]

35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

The whole change of armor was to show he was acting as a Lannister not a KG.

Also, as I've said before, even if there was no one for aerys to give the command to ignite the wildfire, I would still say Jaime wasn't wrong to kill aerys.

Ofc,  and  to show he was acting out of his own desire, not because he wanted to sabe no one.

 

35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except the Lannisters are pretty strong and wealthy at the time Jaime asks Cersei to marry him. If you say the Lannisters were vulnerable then, we disagree.

Are you serious?? The Lannisters were and  still are totally dependent of the Tyrells, not only the Tyrells back off, if they don't kill them first, but the Throne passes to Stannis asap.

 

35 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

There's a difference between the Lannister army and the Lannister forces, true. But due to all the money the Lannisters have, they have a larger army to begin with and more resources to raise a new host or buy mercenaries, as compared to other houses in the westerlands. Plus, they have resources to bribe the other lords. Staging a coup against the lannisters would be really hard to pull off and extremely stupid.

Do you know what his army is, besides the Red Guards?? Do you know how much time takes raise an army of mercenary, especially with the shit show Dany's war has created in Essos?? 

Who would they bribe??

It's neither stupid, nor hard to pull off, their only chance is locked themselves in Casterly Rock to the end of time and hope  their guards  and  their servdom are not toó righteous, otherwise they are just dead.

 

39 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

You are free to believe this. Since it didn't happen, I cannot prove that it could be done. But I completely disagree.

Are you arguing his words??

 

39 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree on what the definition of 'taking up arms' is. So I say Jaime kept his oath.

I mean, you're using a loophole.

 

40 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Nowhere is text does it say that Jaime wanted to kill edmure's baby. Show me where it says Jaime was serious about that threat.

Where in the text says that Jaime was lying?? You're arguing his own words.

[Apoplexy]

25 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc,  and  to show he was acting out of his own desire, not because he wanted to sabe no one.

I find it curious that when Jaime tells brienne he killed aerys before he could send someone to ignite the wildfire, you don't believe that. You say he was trying to look good, even when Jaime hasnt ever cared about his reputation till that point.

But when Jaime threatens edmure with harming his child, which was clearly just a threat, you believe him? It shows to me you are inclined to believe the worst in Jaime regardless of the situation or context.

31 minutes ago, frenin said:

Are you serious?? The Lannisters were and  still are totally dependent of the Tyrells, not only the Tyrells back off, if they don't kill them first, but the Throne passes to Stannis asap.

Yes, I'm serious. We disagree.

The situation with the tyrells and stannis is a whole different discussion.

33 minutes ago, frenin said:

Do you know what his army is, besides the Red Guards?? Do you know how much time takes raise an army of mercenary, especially with the shit show Dany's war has created in Essos?? 

Who would they bribe??

It's neither stupid, nor hard to pull off, their only chance is locked themselves in Casterly Rock to the end of time and hope  their guards  and  their servdom are not toó righteous, otherwise they are just dead.

We just disagree.

Unpacking the political situation at that time is a whole different discussion.

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

Are you arguing his words??

I don't know what you mean here.

35 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

 

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

I mean, you're using a loophole.

We disagree.

36 minutes ago, frenin said:

Where in the text says that Jaime was lying?? You're arguing his own words.

What I'm arguing is that Jaime didn't mean it when he threatened edmure's baby. Right after this exchange with edmure, the blackfish escaped. But Jaime never once brought up killing his baby again.

If you believe Jaime was serious, we are just reading the same text extremely differently. It makes me think you would think the worst of Jaime no matter what.

[Platypus Rex]

On 12/6/2019 at 1:56 PM, Dofs said:

I implied I don't believe he would go there based on George's words and Jaime's current arc in the books, it's pretty simple really, nothing much to understand, if you actually do try. And there is no need to be emotional about it.

I'm not emotional.  Are you?

Quote

Yes, you were suggesting that it was necessary for Jaime to become religious. Because everything that you think Jaime should have done, like repenting in front of the Seven obligates for Jaime to become religious. Like, he can't be repenting in front of them if he doesn't much believe in them in the first place.

Jaime and Lancel are both members of the Faith of the Seven.   So when Lancel mentions repentance to Jaime (primarily about his OWN repentance), this is in the context of the Faith of the Seven.  So in that sense, you are right. 

But I think you are moving the goalpost.  Jaime and Lancel are not discussing whether it is possible for an Ironborn to repent by praying to the Drowned God, or whether it is possible for a modern progressive to repent by grovelling before a twitter outrage mob.  They are discussing repentance in a specific cultural context:  their own.

This is a cultural context that GRRM is familiar with through his reading of Medieval History and Medieval Romance, a genre that GRRM apparently likes and enjoys and whose flavor he is trying go capture.  I think that, agnostic though he is, he sees some value in the traditions of Christian values of redemption, repentance and forgiveness, that are part of his own Catholic heritage.

Jaime does not say he will not pray to the 7 because he does not believe in the Seven.  He says that he will not pray to the7  because the 7 will not give him a new hand.  He refuses to bow before the 7 for the same reason he refuses to explain himself to Ned in the throne room and for the same reason he expressed no regrets to Catelyn for the crippling and attempted murder of her son.  That reason is that he is a narcissist who loves only himself and he sees nothing in it for himself.  He will not pray, or repent, because he is too proud and too arrogant.  Whether he believes in these other entities is rather behind the point.

Quote

That foreshadowing would only work if Jaime had a simple choice of two equal options: to repent or reject repentance and he chose the letter. But it wasn't a choice of equal options, in order to choose the former Jaime would have to do something out of character for him - start treating the Seven seriously, or in other words, become religious indeed. So the foreshadowing simply doesn't work in this instance. It wasn't just a choice for Jaime to repent or not to repent. If it was, then indeed Martin would be implying that you have to become religious in order to achieve redemption. 

In fact, Lancel does not directly invite Jaime to repent at all.  He mainly suggests this possibility by his own example, and by his explanations of his own behavior.  Similarly, Ser Bonifer does not directly warn Jaime that he may fall prey to an undead creature if he does not arm himself in his Faith.  But he does make a remark, and it might be foreshadowing.  Is it?  I dunno.  Maybe we'll find out.

Anyhow, I don't agree with the narrow rules you are laying down for foreshadowing.   Foreshadowing is often designed to be recognized as such after the fact.  It is no tragedy if, at first reading, the reader rejects the message because he rejects the messenger.

Quote

I am sorry that you had such an impression, but you shouldn't be so paranoid about people talking about Christianity. It makes people not take you seriously.

Ok.  Now you're calling me paranoid.  You are also threatening me with the contempt of "people".  Maybe, just maybe, you're the one who is being emotional here.

Dude, I'm sorry.  I don't want to invite your disrespect, or the disrespect of others.  But I'm only calling me as I see it.  Convince me I am wrong if you can, or if you care.  But you can spare me the threats that if I don't change my mind, you and others won't like me.  What kind of wuss do you think I am?

And the fact is, I am not convinced that GRRM is as hostile to Roman Catholic traditions and beliefs as your argument seems to assume.  Maybe he is.  Maybe he isn't.  It is perfectly POSSIBLE that you are right.  I'm just not convinced that you are.

And as for your own attitudes, I am of course only guessing, and I can only go by the things you say.  I still don't know why you brought up "preachy" Christians.  How did you get that, for instance, from the Lancel & Jaime chapter?   Maybe you should re-read that chapter, and ask yourself which of the two is being a preachy, arrogant, intrusive, judgmental, condescending busybody.  I'll give you a hint:  It isn't Lancel.

Have a nice day.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I find it curious that when Jaime tells brienne he killed aerys before he could send someone to ignite the wildfire, you don't believe that. You say he was trying to look good, even when Jaime hasnt ever cared about his reputation till that point.

But when Jaime threatens edmure with harming his child, which was clearly just a threat, you believe him? It shows to me you are inclined to believe the worst in Jaime regardless of the situation or context.

If there wasn't more sources about what happened in there, I wouldn't even bother  to believe Jaime is lying. But then we know that the man changed his armour, found Aerys completely alone and  he killed him at this point to believe whole heartedly Jaime story we should just stop thinking.

With the children thing, Jaime don't believe he's bluffing, you do.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Yes, I'm serious. We disagree.

The situation with the tyrells and stannis is a whole different discussion.

Then i don't understand it, the only reason why the Lannisters looked strong was the Red Wedding and  the Tyrell alliance, don't taking into consideration  the political response don't make much sense.

Jaime's plan has a very obvious outcome, Stannis is the only Baratheon available and  the Tyrells back off.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We just disagree.

Unpacking the political situation at that time is a whole different discussion.

Well how we play this then?? If not saying what it would be a suicide in their context??

There is no alternative universe  in where is a good time to do it.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

What I'm arguing is that Jaime didn't mean it when he threatened edmure's baby. Right after this exchange with edmure, the blackfish escaped. But Jaime never once brought up killing his baby again.

If you believe Jaime was serious, we are just reading the same text extremely differently. It makes me think you would think the worst of Jaime no matter what.

Why would he?? Edmure obliged, he didn't refuse  his offer, just used a loophole, he wasn't bluffing anyway, he meant his words.

[Apoplexy]

Just now, frenin said:

If there wasn't more sources about what happened in there, I wouldn't even bother  to believe Jaime is lying. But then we know that the man changed his armour, found Aerys completely alone and  he killed him at this point to believe whole heartedly Jaime story we should just stop thinking.

 My understanding is that he put the gold armor before killing rossart. Found rossart, killed him. Then went straight to aerys to make sure he wasn't giving orders to other people to burn down the city. Saw he was alone and killed him. 

This tells me Jaime went to aerys to stop him from sending other people to ignite the wildfire as well as kill aerys. Jaime saw he alone but killed him anyways. 

I don't blame him for killing aerys, you are free to blame him. Aerys was terrible. And this is my completely made up scenario that someone couldve been outside the throne room waiting for orders from aerys, which is why I'm doubly glad he killed aerys. 

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

With the children thing, Jaime don't believe he's bluffing, you do

What proof do you have of this statement? Jaime wasn't serious about the threat. 

If your proof is Jaime said so to edmure, we disagree. 

14 minutes ago, frenin said:

Then i don't understand it, the only reason why the Lannisters looked strong was the Red Wedding and  the Tyrell alliance, don't taking into consideration  the political response don't make much sense.

Jaime's plan has a very obvious outcome, Stannis is the only Baratheon available and  the Tyrells back off.

 

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well how we play this then?? If not saying what it would be a suicide in their context??

There is no alternative universe  in where is a good time to do it.

I'll try to say this in reference to the discussion at hand. If Jaime had married Cersei, the focus of most of westeros would be who sits the iron throne. Almost no one would care about the incest. I think the tyrells needed the Lannisters as much as they needed the tyrells. But that's a whole different discussion.

And even if everything went wrong, Jaime, Cersei and the children could live their lives comfortably in the free cities with Lannister money.

As I've said before, talking about every eventuality in this case is out of scope for the current discussion. But no, the idea wasn't suicidal.

21 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would he?? Edmure obliged, he didn't refuse  his offer, just used a loophole, he wasn't bluffing anyway, he meant his words.

We disagree.

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Jaime does not say he will not pray to the 7 because he does not believe in the Seven.  He says that he will not pray to the7  because the 7 will not give him a new hand.  He refuses to bow before the 7 for the same reason he refuses to explain himself to Ned in the throne room and for the same reason he expressed no regrets to Catelyn for the crippling and attempted murder of her son. 

1 hour ago, Platypus Rex said:

Jaime and Lancel are both members of the Faith of the Seven.

 

How do you know Jaime believes in the Seven? Being a member of the Faith of the Seven does not mean Jaime believes in the seven.

[Platypus Rex]

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

How do you know Jaime believes in the Seven? 

I never claimed I knew that one way or another.  I merely noted that non-belief is not the reason he gives for not wanting to pray to them.  The narrow "existence versus non-existence" question is more a modern pre-occupation than a medieval one, and I believe GRRM is sufficiently familiar with medieval thinking to know this.  It may not be what either Jaime or GRRM is focused on.

[Apoplexy]

36 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I never claimed I knew that one way or another.  I merely noted that non-belief is not the reason he gives for not wanting to pray to them.  The narrow "existence versus non-existence" question is more a modern pre-occupation than a medieval one, and I believe GRRM is sufficiently familiar with medieval thinking to know this.  It may not be what either Jaime or GRRM is focused on.

But that does not necessarily translate to the reason being narcissism. 

The whole 'won't grow me a hand' was just cockiness.

[Platypus Rex]

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

But that does not necessarily translate to the reason being narcissism. 

I'd say the books as a whole support the idea that he is narcissistic.

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

The whole 'won't grow me a hand' was just cockiness.

Pride.  Cockiness.  Arrogance.  Narcissism.  All flavors of a related concept.

[Apoplexy]

Just now, Platypus Rex said:

I'd say the books as a whole support the idea that he is narcissistic.

Pride.  Cockiness.  Arrogance.  Narcissism.  All flavors of a related concept.

Cockiness is not pride, pride is not arrogance and arrogance is not narcissism. Jaime is arrogant, proud and cocky, I would disagree he is a narcissist.

[Platypus Rex]

5 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Cockiness is not pride, pride is not arrogance and arrogance is not narcissism. Jaime is arrogant, proud and cocky, I would disagree he is a narcissist.

I said they were related, not identical.  And I said the books as a whole support his narcissism, not that one cocky statement considered in isolation supports it.  And I don't particularly care to debate whether he is a narcissist or not, so we'll just have to agree to disagree, there.

[Apoplexy]

5 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I said they were related, not identical.  And I said the books as a whole support his narcissism, not that one cocky statement considered in isolation supports it.  And I don't particularly care to debate whether he is a narcissist or not.

Perfectly fine.

I'll just add one thing, since you say the books support his narcissism. The whole books support his undue, unhealthy obsession with cersei. That's not the same as narcissism. Agree to disagree.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

My understanding is that he put the gold armor before killing rossart. Found rossart, killed him. Then went straight to aerys to make sure he wasn't giving orders to other people to burn down the city. Saw he was alone and killed him. 

This tells me Jaime went to aerys to stop him from sending other people to ignite the wildfire as well as kill aerys. Jaime saw he alone but killed him anyways. 

I don't blame him for killing aerys, you are free to blame him. Aerys was terrible. And this is my completely made up scenario that someone couldve been outside the throne room waiting for orders from aerys, which is why I'm doubly glad he killed aerys. 

That wouldn't make any sense?? He should've rush to meet Rossart before the man did something stupid, only when Rossart is dealt with and knowing that Aerys has no way to know what happened, Jaime has time to change his armour and  deal with Aerys.

Even if someone was outside  of the Throne room why Jaime didn't kill/knocked out that someone and  why he didn't just knocked out Aerys??

No matter how you look it, Aerys death was totally unnecessary, especially because the Lannisters were already about to storm the Throne room, there was no altruistic reason behind it, Jaime hated Aerys, he hated in what the man turned him into and  so he killed him. Whether you agree with it or not, I don't blame him, is up to you but don't try to say the man did it tp save  KL, that's total post hoc bs Jaime makes up.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

What proof do you have of this statement? Jaime wasn't serious about the threat. 

If your proof is Jaime said so to edmure, we disagree. 

Did you see him believing he wouldn't do it?? 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

I'll try to say this in reference to the discussion at hand. If Jaime had married Cersei, the focus of most of westeros would be who sits the iron throne. Almost no one would care about the incest. I think the tyrells needed the Lannisters as much as they needed the tyrells. But that's a whole different discussion.

And even if everything went wrong, Jaime, Cersei and the children could live their lives comfortably in the free cities with Lannister money.

As I've said before, talking about every eventuality in this case is out of scope for the current discussion. But no, the idea wasn't suicidal.

What?? What do you think that the Lannisters tried so hard to discredit Stannis?? If the kids are recognized bastards, they are out of the Throne, that's just a fact.  The Tyrells don't need the Lannisters in anything, they only need Cersei's kids claim, which is being Robert's trueborn children, not Jaime's.

 

Not while a Baratheon sat on the Throne and not while Tywin was alive anyway, they are attainted meat. But first, they should get to the Free  Cities first.

 

I mean, the idea is stupid and  suicidal precisely because of that, you and  Jaime refuse  to think about the very obvious backlash, just that they would somehow pull it off, because why shouldn't he do the same the Targs did??

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree.

Didn't Edmure oblige then??

[Apoplexy]

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

That wouldn't make any sense?? He should've rush to meet Rossart before the man did something stupid, only when Rossart is dealt with and knowing that Aerys has no way to know what happened, Jaime has time to change his armour and  deal with Aerys.

Even if someone was outside  of the Throne room why Jaime didn't kill/knocked out that someone and  why he didn't just knocked out Aerys??

No matter how you look it, Aerys death was totally unnecessary, especially because the Lannisters were already about to storm the Throne room, there was no altruistic reason behind it, Jaime hated Aerys, he hated in what the man turned him into and  so he killed him. Whether you agree with it or not, I don't blame him, is up to you but don't try to say the man did it tp save  KL, that's total post hoc bs Jaime makes up.

Again, I am not saying Jaime had to kill aerys. I'm saying he got to the throne room with the intent of killing him to prevent him from commissioning someone to ignite wildfire. And I agree, he killed him anyways even when he saw was alone. 

Our point of contention is Jaime's motives in killing aerys, correct? Or are you saying Jaime shouldve knocked him out. If that is what you are saying, I've already replied why I think knocking him out was moot.

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

Did you see him believing he wouldn't do it?? 

The plan only works if edmure buys Jaime's bluff. 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

What?? What do you think that the Lannisters tried so hard to discredit Stannis?? If the kids are recognized bastards, they are out of the Throne, that's just a fact.  The Tyrells don't need the Lannisters in anything, they only need Cersei's kids claim, which is being Robert's trueborn children, not Jaime's.

 

Not while a Baratheon sat on the Throne and not while Tywin was alive anyway, they are attainted meat. But first, they should get to the Free  Cities first.

 

I mean, the idea is stupid and  suicidal precisely because of that, you and  Jaime refuse  to think about the very obvious backlash, just that they would somehow pull it off. 

If you believe he couldn't pull it off, we disagree. I cannot prove he could because this situation did not happen .

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

Didn't Edmure oblige then??

I don't know what this means, but if we cannot agree on the definition of 'taking up arms' , I believe we've reached an impasse.

[Platypus Rex]

23 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Perfectly fine.

I'll just add one thing, since you say the books support his narcissism. The whole books support his undue, unhealthy obsession with cersei. That's not the same as narcissism. Agree to disagree.

Tyrion's take on that, IIRC, is that the love of Jaime and Cersei is analogous to a narcissist staring in the mirror.  That's just a paraphrase, of course, and I don't think Tyrion actually used the word "narcissist".  Nor do I assume that Tyrion's cynical assessments are necessarily fair.  In any event, Jaime's love for Cersei is not exactly unconditional.  He seems to have soured on her after realizing that perhaps she does not love him quite as well or as exclusively as he thought.

[Apoplexy]

23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Tyrion's take on that, IIRC, is that the love of Jaime and Cersei is analogous to a narcissist staring in the mirror.  That's just a paraphrase, of course, and I don't think Tyrion actually used the word "narcissist".  Nor do I assume that Tyrion's cynical assessments are necessarily fair.  In any event, Jaime's love for Cersei is not exactly unconditional.  He seems to have soured on her after realizing that perhaps she does not love him quite as well or as exclusively as he thought.

I disagree with tyrion's take. 

If you love someone else to the point of obsession, that's not narcissism. Narcissism by definition means you care only for yourself. And Jaime has shown concern for people other than himself and cersei. We see it in his very first POV chapter in a storm of swords.

I agree Jaime's love isn't unconditional. Most loves, romantic and non romantic, are not unconditional. Everyone has a line, Jaime's line was cheating. In fact, if his love for her was unconditional, if he stayed with her no matter what she did, I would suspect something was wrong with Jaime.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Again, I am not saying Jaime had to kill aerys. I'm saying he got to the throne room with the intent of killing him to prevent him from commissioning someone to ignite wildfire. And I agree, he killed him anyways even when he saw was alone. 

Our point of contention is Jaime's motives in killing aerys, correct? Or are you saying Jaime shouldve knocked him out. If that is what you are saying, I've already replied why I think knocking him out was moot.

Knocking him out wasn't moot, is like saying that is ok to commit kinslaying if one sibling is going to die anyway, Jaime did not have to kill him and  he's called  kingslayer  and reviled precisely because of that, if Jaime was ready to carry the deed, he should be ready to carry the blame, but it seems better making excuses  and  post hoc and  constantly bitching about why Robert and  Eddard get a pass  and  judge him.

I'm not arguing whether Jaime was in the wrong there, @Lord Varys  would tell you that Aerys should have a pass  for his mental state, but Aerys, and  lets not forget the other KGs role there, had totally ruined  Jaime's life.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

The plan only works if edmure buys Jaime's bluff. 

But we see him bluffing with the Blackfish and  there, Jaime knows he's bluffing, we don't see any of that with Edmure, you want to believe it.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

If you believe he couldn't pull it off, we disagree. I cannot prove he could because this situation did not happen .

I'm starting to think you believe anything that comes out of Jaime that either excuse him him or justify him.

There are things that aren't opinable, is not an opinion that Cersei's kids lose their status  and  Throne.

Cersei got a walk of shame for fucking a guy  after Robert's death.  What do you really think would happen to her if she confessed not only having horned him and  having bastards but having done with her brother??

Who do you think is going to support them?? Why would they when they van just kill them and  take Casterly Rock anyways?? Who in their right mind would give them Casterly Rock?? They would've been passed over at the very best.

Jaime's words are full of stupidity, bravado and  selfishnes.

 

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

don't know what this means, but if we cannot agree on the definition of 'taking up arms' , I believe we've reached an impasse.

I think you're right.

[Apoplexy]

1 minute ago, frenin said:

Aerys should have a pass  for his mental state, 

Except westeros doesn't understand mental illness. That's like saying why aren't maesters using penicillin.

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

But we see him bluffing with the Blackfish and  there, Jaime knows he's bluffing, we don't see any of that with Edmure, you want to believe it.

We've reached an impasse here.

3 minutes ago, frenin said:

I'm starting to think you believe anything that comes out of Jaime that either excuse him him or justify him.

There are things that aren't opinable, is not an opinion that Cersei's kids lose their status  and  Throne.

Cersei got a walk of shame for fucking a guy  after Robert's death.  What do you really think would happen to her if she confessed not only having horned him and  having bastards but having done with her brother??

Who do you think is going to support them?? Why would they when they van just kill them and  take Casterly Rock anyways?? Who in their right mind would give them Casterly Rock?? They would've been passed over at the very best.

Jaime's words are full of stupidity, bravado and  selfishnes.

Which would be fine with Jaime. Cersei definitely doesn't want to give up her crown. We don't know what the children want.

[Platypus Rex]

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I disagree with tyrion's take. 

Fair enough.

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

If you love someone else to the point of obsession, that's not narcissism.

Well, I'm not sure it sounds healthy.

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Narcissism by definition means you care only for yourself.

Fine.  I agree that Jaime is not necessarily an absolute narcissist.  So if you are going to take the position that "somewhat narcissistic" is a contradiction in terms, and that Jaime is either an absolute narcissist or not a narcissist at all, then fine.  By that standard, he is probably not a narcissist.  I still understand what people mean when they call Jaime a narcissist.  And I think, so do you.

47 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Most loves, romantic and non romantic, are not unconditional. 

Maybe.  But if we are allowed to speak in relative, rather than absolute terms, some loves are more unselfish than others.