Jaime is Destined to be Horribly Disfigured.

[frenin]

9 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Except westeros doesn't understand mental illness. That's like saying why aren't maesters using penicillin

You should really read what i wrote instead of using just one part, btw Westeros does understand mental illness. 

 

10 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

We've reached an impasse here.

I know you're again arguing the text??

 

11 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Which would be fine with Jaime. Cersei definitely doesn't want to give up her crown. We don't know what the children want.

Would be?? Jaime is sure he can get Casterly Rock, and  his kids could inherit, how the hell are bastards going to inherit anyway and  that "swords" could keep their Throne, they wouldn't have been passed over the Throne but for Casterly Rock, no one would've given them anything and  both of them would be guilty of so many charges  of treason that there wouldn't be even necessary. They would lose asap Casterly Rock too  and  with that any happy outcome you want to paint.

Why should Cersei put her and  her children lives at risk because of Jaime's whims, Jaime's plan, because he doesn't have any plan really, would get them all killed, saying that Cersei just don't want to give up the crown is ignoring everything else wrong with the idea.

I think that the children wouldn't want to know they are incest born and  bastards, they already have a father and  it's not like Jaime has payed them too much attention. Btw, we know Joffrey's opinion.

 

 

[Apoplexy]

18 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Well, I'm not sure it sounds healthy.

I completely agree, the Jaime-Cersei relationship was toxic. They brought out the worst in each other. Some of it can be blamed on their upbringing, although definitely not all of it.

21 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Fine.  I agree that Jaime is not necessarily an absolute narcissist.  So if you are going to take the position that "somewhat narcissistic" is a contradiction in terms, and that Jaime is either an absolute narcissist or not a narcissist at all, then fine.  By that standard, he is probably not a narcissist.  I still understand what people mean when they call Jaime a narcissist.  And I think, so do you.

I don't really. And maybe I have the scientific understanding of narcissism in my head. Narcissism involves lack of empathy, excessive and exaggerated view of one's looks and abilities, need for admiration, etc. Jaime doesn't show these classical traits.

I think people use the word narcissism to describe his sense of entitlement, his external cavalier attitude and his arrogance.

28 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Maybe.  But if we are allowed to speak in relative, rather than absolute terms, some loves are more unselfish than others.  

Yes, that's absolutely true.

In this case, I personally feel that Jaime distancing himself from Cersei when she cheated on him was not selfish. Fidelity really mattered to Jaime. He couldn't help Cersei sleeping with robert, but this eroded his trust in her.

[Apoplexy]

13 minutes ago, frenin said:

You should really read what i wrote instead of using just one part, btw Westeros does understand mental illness. 

Modern medicine doesn't completely understand mental illness.

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

Would be?? Jaime is sure he can get Casterly Rock, and  his kids could inherit, how the hell are bastards going to inherit anyway and  that "swords" could keep their Throne, they wouldn't have been passed over the Throne but for Casterly Rock, no one would've given them anything and  both of them would be guilty of so many charges  of treason that there wouldn't be even necessary. They would lose asap Casterly Rock too  and  with that any happy outcome you want to paint.

We disagree here. That's fine.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

Modern medicine doesn't completely understand mental illness.

Again, you should read what i wrote, all of it. Westeros understand the concept  of mental illness, not that should absolve  Aerys anyway.

 

1 hour ago, Apoplexy said:

We disagree here. That's fine.

Is Tyrion getting Casterly Rock once he's  found guilty of kingslaying?? What both Jaime and  Cersei did is treason, they would not get anything but Jaime is too  arrogant to even see that and  because Jaime can't see that you think it's just a half closed door. How are Jaime's kids going to inherit anyway?? 

[Dofs]

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I'm not emotional.  Are you?

The way you started to attack me instead of the argument at hand indicates that you indeed are. Me calling you paranoid later on was only my response to that.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Jaime and Lancel are both members of the Faith of the Seven.   So when Lancel mentions repentance to Jaime (primarily about his OWN repentance), this is in the context of the Faith of the Seven.  So in that sense, you are right. 

But I think you are moving the goalpost.  Jaime and Lancel are not discussing whether it is possible for an Ironborn to repent by praying to the Drowned God, or whether it is possible for a modern progressive to repent by grovelling before a twitter outrage mob.  They are discussing repentance in a specific cultural context:  their own.

This is a cultural context that GRRM is familiar with through his reading of Medieval History and Medieval Romance, a genre that GRRM apparently likes and enjoys and whose flavor he is trying go capture.  I think that, agnostic though he is, he sees some value in the traditions of Christian values of redemption, repentance and forgiveness, that are part of his own Catholic heritage.

Jaime does not say he will not pray to the 7 because he does not believe in the Seven.  He says that he will not pray to the7  because the 7 will not give him a new hand. 

Jaime is not religious, he doesn't much believe in the Seven and we know that from way back from his talk with Catelyn:

"If there are gods, why is the world so full of pain and injustice?"

For Jaime repenting in front of the Seven is pointless as there is on one to repent to and he is sarcastically indicating the pointlessness with the comment about saying that the Seven won't give him a new hand. This is not him rejecting the Seven because they wouldn't restore his hand at all.

Hence what was Lancel suggesting was not a repentance in Jaime's personal context. Jaime simply doesn't believe that that's how you do it and even holds contempt for overly religious people which is obvious from what he thought about Bonifer Hasty, Baelor the Blessed and Lancel's recent development.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

He refuses to bow before the 7 for the same reason he refuses to explain himself to Ned in the throne room and for the same reason he expressed no regrets to Catelyn for the crippling and attempted murder of her son.  That reason is that he is a narcissist who loves only himself and he sees nothing in it for himself.  He will not pray, or repent, because he is too proud and too arrogant.  Whether he believes in these other entities is rather behind the point.

Jaime has thought that he is comparable with the Mountain, blamed himself for rotten state of the Kingsguard and started to mockingly call himself 'Kinglsayer', a nickname he hated before for 15 years. Sure, Jaime is proud, but a person full of self-loathing is definitely not a narcissist. Claiming that he is a narcissist who only loves himself is also completely contradictory to his arc where Jaime actually starts to care about himself and his own opinion and desires instead of being a 'yes-man' who only followed orders and wishes of others. That's even what the whole White Book scene was about:

"Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth.

Whatever he chose . . ."

The time has come for Jaime to take his life into his own hands.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

In fact, Lancel does not directly invite Jaime to repent at all.  He mainly suggests this possibility by his own example, and by his explanations of his own behavior.  Similarly, Ser Bonifer does not directly warn Jaime that he may fall prey to an undead creature if he does not arm himself in his Faith.  But he does make a remark, and it might be foreshadowing.  Is it?  I dunno.  Maybe we'll find out.

Anyhow, I don't agree with the narrow rules you are laying down for foreshadowing.   Foreshadowing is often designed to be recognized as such after the fact.  It is no tragedy if, at first reading, the reader rejects the message because he rejects the messenger.

As I've said before, Jaime doesn't believe in what Lancel and Bonnifer Hasty are doing. If he did, I would actually agree with you.

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Ok.  Now you're calling me paranoid.  You are also threatening me with the contempt of "people".  Maybe, just maybe, you're the one who is being emotional here.

Dude, I'm sorry.  I don't want to invite your disrespect, or the disrespect of others.  But I'm only calling me as I see it.  Convince me I am wrong if you can, or if you care.  But you can spare me the threats that if I don't change my mind, you and others won't like me.  What kind of wuss do you think I am?

And the fact is, I am not convinced that GRRM is as hostile to Roman Catholic traditions and beliefs as your argument seems to assume.  Maybe he is.  Maybe he isn't.  It is perfectly POSSIBLE that you are right.  I'm just not convinced that you are.

And as for your own attitudes, I am of course only guessing, and I can only go by the things you say.  I still don't know why you brought up "preachy" Christians.  How did you get that, for instance, from the Lancel & Jaime chapter?   Maybe you should re-read that chapter, and ask yourself which of the two is being a preachy, arrogant, intrusive, judgmental, condescending busybody.  I'll give you a hint:  It isn't Lancel.

Have a nice day.

I've made my argument and you took from it that I hate Roman Catholicism and that I believe that GRRM hates it too, despite the fact that I've never claimed so. Then I actually did tell you that no, you are mistaken, I don't hate it, nor do I believe that GRRM does, yet you continue to claim that I do and base your arguments against me on this assumption. And now you even ask to 'convince' you that you are wrong? Really? Like, how can I treat all of it seriously? 

[Lord Varys]

Jaime is the very definition of a narcissist. That we don't really see that so much is because his character's voice is so compelling and comes across as that great noble guy because he really has no need to put his cock in any woman but his sweet sister.

But in the end Jaime is only about himself. Brienne and the loss of his hand change his own self-image and he wants to create himself anew. He does not suddenly care more about people in any meaningful way.

The reason why Brienne is a person whose understanding he wants is because she becomes a mirror for his earlier self. Jaime recognizes himself in the young woman, the youth who adored Arthur Dayne, who fought in the Kingswood. Jaime only cares about Brienne insofar as she remins him of himself. And he sends her on a stupid, pointless mission later on because he thinks that's what he should be doing now but cannot - because he also has decided to be a Kingsguard now - the guy who murdered one king and cuckolded another.

And one cannot even fault Jaime for the shitty person that he is. He grew up with a tyrant as a father, lived the most privileged life imaginable as the heir to Casterly Rock, is blessed by Lannister beauty, and an incredible talent to excel at the manly arts in Westeros. Very few people would end up caring about other people if they lived a life in Jaime's shoes. They would be spoiled billionaire brats, basically.

And then comes his time at the court of Aerys II which definitely account of his psychopathic tendencies - i.e. his ability to commit and witness very cruel acts without letting those emotions get to him. He suffered severe traumas there and that marred his psyche - like Sandor's war by Gregor, like Arya's was by the war experiences, etc.

No normal person would act like Jaime does after his father was killed by his own brother or his son was allegedly killed by his own brother. He doesn't really care about any of that - not in a meaningful way.

This is all easily overlooked when one thinks about what kind of a shitty person Tywin and Joffrey were, but Kevan - a pretty normal guy - shows us how family act when one of their loved one die.

[Apoplexy]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is the very definition of a narcissist.

Definition of a narcissist is a person who only cares about themselves and lacks empathy for others.

Jaime cares for other people, even the ones  that don't remind him of himslef. People of KL, smallfolk women (tries to prevent rapes etc), brienne, to some extent Peck, his brother tyrion, etc.

The word narcissism describes Cersei more so than Jaime.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No normal person would act like Jaime does after his father was killed by his own brother or his son was allegedly killed by his own brother. He doesn't really care about any of that - not in a meaningful way.

You're describing a sociopath/psychopath here, not a narcissist. I'm not saying Jaime is a psychopath, btw. He has enough self reflection to realize that his father's death didn't affect him much.

[Platypus Rex]

11 hours ago, Dofs said:

The way you started to attack me instead of the argument at hand indicates that you indeed are.

How did I attack you?

Quote

I've made my argument and you took from it that I hate Roman Catholicism and that I believe that GRRM hates it too, despite the fact that I've never claimed so.

I believe that GRRM is hostile to Roman Catholicism to at least some extent.  Because if he wasn't, he would be Roman Catholic, and he clearly is not.  He has rejected, to at least some extent, the religion of his birth.  Acknowledging this is not an attack on GRRM or anyone else.  It is simply the truth.

I just don't think it is necessarily true that he is AS hostile to Roman Catholicism as your argument seems to assume.

It appeared to me that those attitudes were coming from you rather than GRRM.  But that was not an "attack" either.  Even if I was wrong about that, it was not an "attack".   We are all entitled to our points of view, and if you were not to some extent anti-Catholic, you would be Catholic.

But I really don't think I am wrong in guessing you have even less sympathy for Roman Catholicism than GRRM does.

Be offended if you like.    Bye.

[Castellan]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaime is the very definition of a narcissist. 

When I kept finding references in the forum to narcissism in relation to Cersei and Jaime I eventually looked it up. (I may go back and find the one reference I found useful and link it here if I can find it again.) The reason I looked was that Cersei - once we get to her POV chapters and realise just how disturbed she is - struck me as overwhelmingly paranoid rather than anything else. I wondered if paranoia is an element of narcissism.Jaime does not strike me as narcissistic at all and did not on first reading. Tracing the references to them looking alike, to mirrors, etc, it is clearly Cersei who craves a mirror - when Jaime cuts his hair he thinks 'Cersei will not like that' From reading I concluded that Cersei is a textbook narcissist and Jaime is her "narcissistic supply". The source I liked said that at heart narcissists feel a deep sense of shame. They feel hard done by and have an insatiable need for affirmation while at the same time being full of distrust. So they like to find some one person who is prepared to give them constant support and adoration. I think Taena Marryweather is cunning enough to instinctively read Cersei's need and become another source. Lancel was an unsatisfactory substitute when Jaime was away.

PS absolutely nobody except Cersei seems to feel regret at Joffrey's death and we do get the backstory of jaime expecting to hold him after his birth and having Cersei drive him away (like a mother cat, by the way). In life I have encountered many father's who basically write one or more of their children off at some point. Not very nice but not a personality disorder.

Jaime is deeply shocked by Tywin's death and insists on standing the whole period of vigil, reviews his feelings and tries to work out if he loved Tywin. I think he is also deeply shocked because even though finding his father impossible he has bought the whole 'Lannisters stick together' (well, a bit too much) message of his father and to see the family so riven by Tyrion does really shake his world. These are a normal range of feelings given his family history. Its the history thats weird!

 

 

 

[Apoplexy]

52 minutes ago, Castellan said:

I wondered if paranoia is an element of narcissism

I'm not a psychologist, so take that into consideration when reading my post.

From my understanding, narcissistic people crave adoration and attention so much that it makes them suspicious of anybody who doesn't constantly praise them. They feel such people must dislike them because they don't fawn over them. This can lead to a feeling of 'everybody thinks badly of me and doesn't give me the respect I deserve '. Such negative feelings can lead to depression, and narcissistic people often feel better after being treated for depression. But I haven't read about paranoia being associated with narcissism, just a feeling of 'the world is conspiring against me, hence I have [insert any complaint here]'.

[Castellan]

1 minute ago, Apoplexy said:

I'm not a psychologist, so take that into consideration when reading my post.

From my understanding, narcissistic people crave adoration and attention so much that it makes them suspicious of anybody who doesn't constantly praise them. They feel such people must dislike them because they don't fawn over them. This can lead to a feeling of 'everybody thinks badly of me and doesn't give me the respect I deserve '. Such negative feelings can lead to depression, and narcissistic people often feel better after being treated for depression. But I haven't read about paranoia being associated with narcissism, just a feeling of 'the world is conspiring against me, hence I have [insert any complaint here]'.

feeling the world is conspiring against you sounds like paranoia... some of the stuff you find online implies that the shame and depression came first ... in childhood ... and they have developed a certain type of personality as a coping mechanism. Not a very good mechanism, certainly!

[Apoplexy]

4 minutes ago, Castellan said:

feeling the world is conspiring against you sounds like paranoia... some of the stuff you find online implies that the shame and depression came first ... in childhood ... and they have developed a certain type of personality as a coping mechanism. Not a very good mechanism, certainly!

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word 'conspiring '. A general feeling of 'being undermined because people don't understand my greatness' would be more appropriate. From what I've read, depression doesn't necessarily come first. And even the people who are treated for depression are usually never really satisfied with their lives.

Paranoia is a very specific condition, not the same as it is used in common parlance.

[Platypus Rex]

Narcissist is a label used by clinicians for other people.  But no narcissist is a narcissist in his own POV.

[Platypus Rex]

On 12/8/2019 at 10:47 PM, Apoplexy said:

Paranoia is a very specific condition, not the same as it is used in common parlance.

Common parlance has as much or more authority than anything else.  The labels used by clinicians or other elites are not necessarily any more objectively "true" even when they may be different in meaning.  Language is for communication, and you might want to consider that this is not a conference of clinical psychiatrists.

[Apoplexy]

16 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Common parlance has as much or more authority than anything else.  The labels used by clinicians or other elites are not necessarily any more objectively "true" even when they may be different in meaning.  Language is for communication, and you might want to consider that this is not a conference of clinical psychiatrists.

I agree.

But if you are using a particular word to justify a character having a particular personality disorder, then you had better use it correctly. In this case, I was specifically talking about paranoia and narcissistic personality disorder.

Even if you aren't talking about a personality disorder, even if you are saying a character is paranoid or narcissistic, I would say you would need to know the definition of these words as they are used it common parlance. Otherwise you are just using the word wrong to attribute characteristics to a character that they do not possess.

[Apoplexy]

24 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

But no narcissist is a narcissist in his own POV.

In my opinion, Cersei's pov is chock full of evidence she is a narcissist, while Jaime's pov has almost no evidence of it. I say this based on their behavior, thoughts and actions, not what they think of themselves.

[Platypus Rex]

2 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

I agree.

But if you are using a particular word to justify a character having a particular personality disorder, then you had better use it correctly. In this case, I was specifically talking about paranoia and narcissistic personality disorder.

Even if you aren't talking about a personality disorder, even if you are saying a character is paranoid or narcissistic, I would say you would need to know the definition of these words as they are used it common parlance. Otherwise you are just using the word wrong to attribute characteristics to a character that they do not possess.

So you are saying I do not have to use a word in a specific clinical way.  But in the end, I must use a word in a specific clinical way.  Because otherwise I am wrong.

I say you have no authority to play word police.  Not even if you are an actual clinician.  Which you are probably not.

Me, I have no idea whether Jaime has a clinical personality disorder.  I just think he's a bit of a narcissist.  I'm not even sure Narcissus himself had any kind of clinical personality disorder, and I don't care.  I have no interest in clinical personality disorders and the various ever-changing ways they are defined.

[Apoplexy]

9 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

So you are saying I do not have to use a word in a specific clinical way.  But in the end, I must use a word in a specific clinical way.  Because otherwise I am wrong.

I say you have no authority to play word police.  Not even if you are an actual clinician.  Which you are probably not.

Me, I have no idea whether Jaime has a clinical personality disorder.  I just think he's a bit of a narcissist.  I'm not even sure Narcissus himself had any kind of clinical personality disorder, and I don't care.  I have no interest in clinical personality disorders and the various ever-changing ways they are defined.

Ok, let's start with defining narcissism. If you wouldn't mind, define a narcissist. The we can move on to whether that definition fits Jaime or not.

[Platypus Rex]

7 minutes ago, Apoplexy said:

Ok, let's start with defining narcissism. If you wouldn't mind, define a narcissist. 

Someone who admires himself a bit too much, rather like Narcissus.  And perhaps, by further extension, one who is motivated (a bit too much) by the wish to be admired by others, thereby validating his own opinion of himself.

[Apoplexy]

1 minute ago, Platypus Rex said:

Someone who admires himself a bit too much, rather like Narcissus.  And perhaps, by further extension, one who is motivated (a bit too much) by the wish to be admired by others, thereby validating his own opinion of himself.

Ok, that's part of the definition, in my opinion. But let's go with this part.

what about Jaime's behavior tells you he admires himself too much? He has a sense of entitlement, but that's not the same as thinking too much oneself. Jaime sometimes references 'lions not caring about the opinion of sheep', but that's not because he thinks too much of himself, he just doesn't care what others have to say about him. He is constantly questioning himself, his oaths, his behavior.

What tells you Jaime wants to be admired by others? All of his behavior suggests he doesn't care about what others say. This is arrogance and pride, not narcissism.