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Do we think George passed 1500 manuscript pages?


Quaithe from Asshai

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10 minutes ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Well, off the top of my head, much of what fans expect to happen in the rest of the series is just that....what the collective "we" expect. Dany does not have to do all of the 3-4 books of material fans come up with.

This is true for every other part of the story. For example, fans come up with 3-4 books of material for Euron, making him some sort of uber villain. But if Sam kills him at Oldtown, it will be clear that 2 books will be enough to conclude the series.

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40 minutes ago, Mithras said:

This is true for every other part of the story. For example, fans come up with 3-4 books of material for Euron, making him some sort of uber villain. But if Sam kills him at Oldtown, it will be clear that 2 books will be enough to conclude the series.

It would at least be alot more likely he would finish in 2 books :)

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This reminds me of that "kill a story arc" thread we had a while back. The story could be drastically shortened if Cersei stumbles out of a window one morning in a drunken stupor, Arya is killed failing to assassinate a target, Jon Snow remains dead, or the White Walkers just never show up again. Unsatisfactory, sure, but sometimes it's fun to throw a wrench into the machinery and concentrate on telling the story of its breakdown instead.

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3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Fans say we need to see what happens next in the Vale, KL, etc but George can have the Others descend on Westeros and wreck all those plans in short order. Maybe it can be done. Maybe the TWOW sample chapters are a slow build into the Battle of Fire and the Battle of Ice and a short breather while people make plans then BOOM the Others are laying waste to Westeros while Dany is conquering Essos. 

Imho it would actually work a lot better to have an Essos-centered book with Dany getting shit done, while all the plans and stupid games in Westeros are crumbling into a bit "Oh fuck" and fleeing the Others from the North than having Dany spontaneously deciding to move quickly without even having the proper information at hand and being several weeks away from Mereen alone.

At least the people of Westeros would not act out of character in your scenario.

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On 5/16/2020 at 1:32 PM, Morte said:

The problem is: Westeros and the Others can not wait for six to twelve months till Dany does arrive, the story on the Wall would become ridiculous that way. That's why I think that the Wall will have already fallen, when Dany sets foot on Westeros and that the "Dance" will be after the conflict with the Others.

Dany will arrive in Westeros before the Others breach the Wall.  GRRM confirmed that much almost 20 years ago now when book four (after the five year gap) was going to start with Dany landing on the shores of Westeros.

The pacing of the Others (and Westeros's reaction to their presence) has been a thorn in the side since the first book.  It was GRRM's biggest pacing misstep.

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25 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Dany will arrive in Westeros before the Others breach the Wall.  GRRM confirmed that much almost 20 years ago now when book four (after the five year gap) was going to start with Dany landing on the shores of Westeros.

The pacing of the Others (and Westeros's reaction to their presence) has been a thorn in the side since the first book.  It was GRRM's biggest pacing misstep.

Lots of things have changed since 2000.

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19 hours ago, Morte said:

But Bloodraven also doesn't think of himself as a living god, nor does he mess with the lifes of others (except for Bran, whom he needs, because he himself is dying).

Bloodraven did mess with a lot of people - he seems to be responsible for the omen of the direwolf and the stag, the pups, he shaped Bran's dreams, he invaded Jaime's dreams, and he may have influenced others in a similar manner.

He seems to lack the ability to reach people directly or possess them like Bran does with Hodor, but if Bran were to be able to do such things he would effectively be a living god. If he could talk through the trees he would be seen as a god, and that's the crucial part in all that.

Not to mention that the knowledge beings like Bloodraven and Bran have makes them essentially god-like. They know everything people ever did and you can hide nothing from them, not even your thoughts (since they can invade your dreams as well as possess you while you are awake). Beings who perceive the world in such a manner cannot really care about mundane politics.

If Bran became 'a king' he would effectively the same type of ruler Leto II was in the Dune series. And that guy isn't a king, is he?

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So in my opinion it would be more a guardian role for Bran, a knowledge-keeper so to say, a little more known and prominent than Bloodraven now, but not a living god messing with the lifes outside.

I don't think he would mess with people all that much, either. But he could - and they will know that he could. And he might kill somebody occasionally, to ensure that another Littlefinger or Roose doesn't rise to power again.

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Sure, they thought they did the right thing, but it seems they disturbed the balance with this. I think it is in the Dunk&Egg-stories, there it is stated that winter has become harsher and longer since the last dragon died?

Yeah, I assume the dragons were the big deterrent that prevented the Others from making their great move earlier. I also am inclined to believe that they dabble in plagues and stuff, and the Shivers was a reaction to Alysanne taking Silverwing up to the Wall - which the Others would have seen as a threat to their existence. I don't think it is a coincidence that the winter after that visit was very cruel and the Shivers came down on Westeros during that winter.

The other idea is that the Dance and eventually the death of the last dragon got their whole plan going. That's when they would have started to leave the Land of Always Winter to harass the wildlings and build up their numbers (both in Others and wights).

Before the Targaryens came to Westeros they would have feared Valyria - whose dragonlords could have flown in to save the day in second Long Night easily enough.

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Still: If one thinks the dragons dangerous and (rightly) isn't keen on being ruled by some magic users just because they manage to use that magic, than the same people would be even more horrified with an all-knowing living god in the trees - and rightly so. An ending with Bran in such a position would not be bitter-sweet, but lovecraftian and kafkaesk at the same time, it would be horrible. That's why the original God Emperor Leto II is working on his "Golden Path", to ensure there will never be another being like him, to ensure there will be no more gods. But Bran doesn't have that agenda, nor can I imagine him developing something like that.

Yeah, that would be another reason why Bran shouldn't have any worldly powers nor any intention to exert them. But to end the story on a positive note I think the spectre of this god out in the wild somewhere should be there to help whoever is in charge to push through necessary reforms (possibly Egg's old agenda) to limit the powers of the lords and strengthen the rights of the smallfolk.

They cannot really rebuild exactly the same shitty world and society that allowed the Others to nearly kill everybody.

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All in all I think we will end up with either all magic being alive again, or all magic being dead/diminishing at the end of the series.

I don't like the concept of magic dying very much since that's very much a standard fantasy trope. Some things are dying: Children of the Forest, giants, direwolves, the wildling way of life, and, thankfully, the old way of the Ironborn, too. But the weirwoods don't have to die, nor do the skinchangers and the few greenseers that are out there. Neither do the dragons or any other of the other magical creatures nor magical powers and stuff. Whether those things should be used to rule over people is another question entirely.

12 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Fans say we need to see what happens next in the Vale, KL, etc but George can have the Others descend on Westeros and wreck all those plans in short order. Maybe it can be done. Maybe the TWOW sample chapters are a slow build into the Battle of Fire and the Battle of Ice and a short breather while people make plans then BOOM the Others are laying waste to Westeros while Dany is conquering Essos. 

He could do that, of course. The problem is - there is no intention that he wants to do that. Something like an attack of the Others is going to be build up, too, and if ADwD ignored a plot line completely then it was the Others. Before the Wall falls we are going to get some more information on the Others and some other attempts to attack or cross it.

The Others plot is the one George build up very slowly ... it is not going to be one he is going to rush by, say, having them breach the Wall in the second Mel or Jon chapter in TWoW.

And in general there is the point that building up plots and then use another plot to cut them short is both bad writing and a waste of time. If George wanted to get to the Others soon he would not have introduced all the stuff we got in AFfC/ADwD. Instead those two books would have build up the fall of the Wall - which they did not.

The main reason why we have to expect that the Others will take their time some more is the simple fact that there will be a Second Dance of the Dragons - which strongly suggests another kind of civil war in which Dany and Aegon will be (the) two main pretenders.

Some part of the fighting there can happen while and even after the Others have breached the Wall, but it shouldn't be possible to introduce such a plot while everybody already knows the Others are a thing and on their move down south. Nor does it make sense that such a civil war would be fought after the Others are defeated.

Eventually the Others will cut short any other plot, of course. But that moment isn't right now nor in the foreseeable future.

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We agree on most of the thing about Bran, except this two:

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

He seems to lack the ability to reach people directly or possess them like Bran does with Hodor, but if Bran were to be able to do such things he would effectively be a living god. If he could talk through the trees he would be seen as a god, and that's the crucial part in all that.

I do hope that Bran isn't going this route, he can possess Hodor because Hodor is not very bright, but even Hodor (who knows and likes Bran) is not happy with this. Mindfucking people that way would be a lot worse than actual rape, so I hope that Bran stops this rather sooner then later.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Bran became 'a king' he would effectively the same type of ruler Leto II was in the Dune series. And that guy isn't a king, is he?

But without Leto's agenda, and that's what would make it a horror story. Leto is of course more than a petty king, he is the God Emperor in the end, his rule horrifying even with his agenda and because of the things he has to do to push it forward.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't like the concept of magic dying very much since that's very much a standard fantasy trope. Some things are dying: Children of the Forest, giants, direwolves, the wildling way of life, and, thankfully, the old way of the Ironborn, too. But the weirwoods don't have to die, nor do the skinchangers and the few greenseers that are out there. Neither do the dragons or any other of the other magical creatures nor magical powers and stuff. Whether those things should be used to rule over people is another question entirely.

I have no love for the institution of human sacrifice, so let's hope that at least this part of the Old God's worship stays dead, too.

But yes, I would like it more if he wouldn't go down this standard trope.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The main reason why we have to expect that the Others will take their time some more is the simple fact that there will be a Second Dance of the Dragons - which strongly suggests another kind of civil war in which Dany and Aegon will be (the) two main pretenders.

Some part of the fighting there can happen while and even after the Others have breached the Wall, but it shouldn't be possible to introduce such a plot while everybody already knows the Others are a thing and on their move down south. Nor does it make sense that such a civil war would be fought after the Others are defeated.

Eventually the Others will cut short any other plot, of course. But that moment isn't right now nor in the foreseeable future.

But the Dance could also be after the dealing with the Others, and of course the Dance could also be scraped completely by now, as it doesn't fit the whole scenario that well to begin with - at least not since Martin started to expand on the Essos-plot. Even if Dany doesn't do all the things the readers want her to do, it will imho take her at least six months to a year to get moving, simply because of geography and logistics. Westeros sitting idle, playing silly games (hm... Peter Gabriel!) starts getting ridiculous by now.

We had a Dance with Dragons, might be we don't get a Dance of the Dragons at all. :dunno:

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Bloodraven did mess with a lot of people - he seems to be responsible for the omen of the direwolf and the stag, the pups, he shaped Bran's dreams, he invaded Jaime's dreams, and he may have influenced others in a similar manner.

He seems to lack the ability to reach people directly or possess them like Bran does with Hodor, but if Bran were to be able to do such things he would effectively be a living god. If he could talk through the trees he would be seen as a god, and that's the crucial part in all that.

Not to mention that the knowledge beings like Bloodraven and Bran have makes them essentially god-like. They know everything people ever did and you can hide nothing from them, not even your thoughts (since they can invade your dreams as well as possess you while you are awake). Beings who perceive the world in such a manner cannot really care about mundane politics.

If Bran became 'a king' he would effectively the same type of ruler Leto II was in the Dune series. And that guy isn't a king, is he?

I don't think he would mess with people all that much, either. But he could - and they will know that he could. And he might kill somebody occasionally, to ensure that another Littlefinger or Roose doesn't rise to power again.

Yeah, I assume the dragons were the big deterrent that prevented the Others from making their great move earlier. I also am inclined to believe that they dabble in plagues and stuff, and the Shivers was a reaction to Alysanne taking Silverwing up to the Wall - which the Others would have seen as a threat to their existence. I don't think it is a coincidence that the winter after that visit was very cruel and the Shivers came down on Westeros during that winter.

The other idea is that the Dance and eventually the death of the last dragon got their whole plan going. That's when they would have started to leave the Land of Always Winter to harass the wildlings and build up their numbers (both in Others and wights).

Before the Targaryens came to Westeros they would have feared Valyria - whose dragonlords could have flown in to save the day in second Long Night easily enough.

Yeah, that would be another reason why Bran shouldn't have any worldly powers nor any intention to exert them. But to end the story on a positive note I think the spectre of this god out in the wild somewhere should be there to help whoever is in charge to push through necessary reforms (possibly Egg's old agenda) to limit the powers of the lords and strengthen the rights of the smallfolk.

They cannot really rebuild exactly the same shitty world and society that allowed the Others to nearly kill everybody.

I don't like the concept of magic dying very much since that's very much a standard fantasy trope. Some things are dying: Children of the Forest, giants, direwolves, the wildling way of life, and, thankfully, the old way of the Ironborn, too. But the weirwoods don't have to die, nor do the skinchangers and the few greenseers that are out there. Neither do the dragons or any other of the other magical creatures nor magical powers and stuff. Whether those things should be used to rule over people is another question entirely.

He could do that, of course. The problem is - there is no intention that he wants to do that. Something like an attack of the Others is going to be build up, too, and if ADwD ignored a plot line completely then it was the Others. Before the Wall falls we are going to get some more information on the Others and some other attempts to attack or cross it.

The Others plot is the one George build up very slowly ... it is not going to be one he is going to rush by, say, having them breach the Wall in the second Mel or Jon chapter in TWoW.

And in general there is the point that building up plots and then use another plot to cut them short is both bad writing and a waste of time. If George wanted to get to the Others soon he would not have introduced all the stuff we got in AFfC/ADwD. Instead those two books would have build up the fall of the Wall - which they did not.

The main reason why we have to expect that the Others will take their time some more is the simple fact that there will be a Second Dance of the Dragons - which strongly suggests another kind of civil war in which Dany and Aegon will be (the) two main pretenders.

Some part of the fighting there can happen while and even after the Others have breached the Wall, but it shouldn't be possible to introduce such a plot while everybody already knows the Others are a thing and on their move down south. Nor does it make sense that such a civil war would be fought after the Others are defeated.

Eventually the Others will cut short any other plot, of course. But that moment isn't right now nor in the foreseeable future.

I was attempting to outline a route George can take since @Werthead introduced the idea of George shortening the remainder of what he had planned so that he finishes before he dies.

I personally don't see George finishing in less than 4500 MS pages and 6000 MS pages wouldn't surprise me. He has blown every page count he has ever set for himself with ASOIAF and his writing style allows the story to tell him more stuff needs to be added. 

The point still stands that much of what readers expect to happen...doesn't have to happen. It's GRRM's story, not ours.

 

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7 hours ago, Morte said:

I do hope that Bran isn't going this route, he can possess Hodor because Hodor is not very bright, but even Hodor (who knows and likes Bran) is not happy with this. Mindfucking people that way would be a lot worse than actual rape, so I hope that Bran stops this rather sooner then later.

It might be necessary later on to save people, deliver crucial information, and so forth. I'm not looking forward to this, either, though.

7 hours ago, Morte said:

But without Leto's agenda, and that's what would make it a horror story. Leto is of course more than a petty king, he is the God Emperor in the end, his rule horrifying even with his agenda and because of the things he has to do to push it forward.

Yeah, but with Bran's knowledge he would effectively be the Westerosi equivalent of a preborn abomination, no? A person who knows all about human and non-human history. Mortal people and their problems would look petty and small to him.

7 hours ago, Morte said:

I have no love for the institution of human sacrifice, so let's hope that at least this part of the Old God's worship stays dead, too.

Hopefully they stop that again after the Long Night is over.

7 hours ago, Morte said:

But the Dance could also be after the dealing with the Others, and of course the Dance could also be scraped completely by now, as it doesn't fit the whole scenario that well to begin with - at least not since Martin started to expand on the Essos-plot. Even if Dany doesn't do all the things the readers want her to do, it will imho take her at least six months to a year to get moving, simply because of geography and logistics. Westeros sitting idle, playing silly games (hm... Peter Gabriel!) starts getting ridiculous by now.

We had a Dance with Dragons, might be we don't get a Dance of the Dragons at all. :dunno:

George first talked about the Second Dance when writing ADwD. This is a new plot element, not one of the old ones.

The entire point of getting Aegon to Westeros first is that war. The character would have no point at all if he and Dany wouldn't clash as per the vision in the House of the Undying. And in relation to him and her things are not really out of synch. Aegon has first to win the Iron Throne by himself, consolidate his power to a point, and take another wife (most likely Arianne and possibly also Sansa) so that he and Dany can't get to an (easy) understanding. Then there is potential for conflict there.

But there are more than enough pieces in the air so that a lot of things can happen before the Others breach the Wall - the Brotherhood plot should play out, Euron has to be build up as a proper antagonist and has to start to harm and attack relevant people we care about, Littlefinger and Sansa have to get the Vale plot going, the good guys have to consolidate power in the North and investigate the Others, etc.

None of those plots looks as if the Others are about to crash the party

3 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

I was attempting to outline a route George can take since @Werthead introduced the idea of George shortening the remainder of what he had planned so that he finishes before he dies.

I personally don't see George finishing in less than 4500 MS pages and 6000 MS pages wouldn't surprise me. He has blown every page count he has ever set for himself with ASOIAF and his writing style allows the story to tell him more stuff needs to be added. 

The point still stands that much of what readers expect to happen...doesn't have to happen. It's GRRM's story, not ours.

Well, to be fair, very little of the actual big plots in ADwD surprised me. Aegon beating Dany to Westeros did, but aside from that every plot just continued and branched off in little subplots as they do all the time. And George isn't the kind of author who races to the end of his story by suddenly killing a lot of the characters he just recently introduced.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It might be necessary later on to save people, deliver crucial information, and so forth. I'm not looking forward to this, either, though.

Yeah, but with Bran's knowledge he would effectively be the Westerosi equivalent of a preborn abomination, no? A person who knows all about human and non-human history. Mortal people and their problems would look petty and small to him.

Hopefully they stop that again after the Long Night is over.

George first talked about the Second Dance when writing ADwD. This is a new plot element, not one of the old ones.

The entire point of getting Aegon to Westeros first is that war. The character would have no point at all if he and Dany wouldn't clash as per the vision in the House of the Undying. And in relation to him and her things are not really out of synch. Aegon has first to win the Iron Throne by himself, consolidate his power to a point, and take another wife (most likely Arianne and possibly also Sansa) so that he and Dany can't get to an (easy) understanding. Then there is potential for conflict there.

But there are more than enough pieces in the air so that a lot of things can happen before the Others breach the Wall - the Brotherhood plot should play out, Euron has to be build up as a proper antagonist and has to start to harm and attack relevant people we care about, Littlefinger and Sansa have to get the Vale plot going, the good guys have to consolidate power in the North and investigate the Others, etc.

None of those plots looks as if the Others are about to crash the party

Well, to be fair, very little of the actual big plots in ADwD surprised me. Aegon beating Dany to Westeros did, but aside from that every plot just continued and branched off in little subplots as they do all the time. And George isn't the kind of author who races to the end of his story by suddenly killing a lot of the characters he just recently introduced.

Agreed. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, but with Bran's knowledge he would effectively be the Westerosi equivalent of a preborn abomination, no? A person who knows all about human and non-human history. Mortal people and their problems would look petty and small to him.

Yes, but there is a difference between a preborn abomination using his powers to ensure there will never be something like him again, and humanity will be free of any other gods, and a similar being without that self-conciousness; not showing even glimpses of it, in fact.

The first one is a bitter-sweet ending with much self-sacrifice, the latter is something you want to kill with fire. ;)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The entire point of getting Aegon to Westeros first is that war. The character would have no point at all if he and Dany wouldn't clash as per the vision in the House of the Undying. And in relation to him and her things are not really out of synch. Aegon has first to win the Iron Throne by himself, consolidate his power to a point, and take another wife (most likely Arianne and possibly also Sansa) so that he and Dany can't get to an (easy) understanding. Then there is potential for conflict there.

But there are more than enough pieces in the air so that a lot of things can happen before the Others breach the Wall - the Brotherhood plot should play out, Euron has to be build up as a proper antagonist and has to start to harm and attack relevant people we care about, Littlefinger and Sansa have to get the Vale plot going, the good guys have to consolidate power in the North and investigate the Others, etc.

None of those plots looks as if the Others are about to crash the party

Agree.

But the Dance could still happen after the confrontation with the Other. In fact, it would make Dany and her allies even more unforgiving if they just came down to KL after saving the day, finding a bunch of nut-heads still fighting about some stupid iron chair. It would also fit with, if, while slaying the lie that is Aegon, Dany would decide to go back to Essos, seeing that Westeros is really not worth anyone's time.

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6 minutes ago, Morte said:

Yes, but there is a difference between a preborn abomination using his powers to ensure there will never be something like him again, and humanity will be free of any other gods, and a similar being without that self-conciousness; not showing even glimpses of it, in fact.

The first one is a bitter-sweet ending with much self-sacrifice, the latter is something you want to kill with fire. ;)

Well, Bran's golden path wouldn't be Leto's, of course.

6 minutes ago, Morte said:

Agree.

But the Dance could still happen after the confrontation with the Other. In fact, it would make Dany and her allies even more unforgiving if they just came down to KL after saving the day, finding a bunch of nut-heads still fighting about some stupid iron chair. It would also fit with, if, while slaying the lie that is Aegon, Dany would decide to go back to Essos, seeing that Westeros is really not worth anyone's time.

Not really. This is ASoIaF and not GoT. The great climax will be the great climax. There might be some sort of cleaning up to be done after the Others are dealt with, but no proper war. And regardless how worse Aegon is going to get, I very much doubt he'll not back the good guys against the Others if he lives enough to do so. There could be a betrayal or a murder afterwards, of course, but no proper war. And whoever decided to use the fight against the Others as pretext/opportunity to seize power in the capital is going to be crushed by the wrath of Westeros once the Others are dealt with. Because that will be seen as the ultimate betrayal.

There is also the fact that George chose to tease the Second Dance as something that's goingt to come soon - but he never teased us with the fall of the Wall or the War for the Dawn or anything of that sort - most likely because that's the farthest in the future at this point.

And to be sure - I expect this Second Dance to be more about 'who is the true savior' than 'who should be king'. The Others might not yet have breached the Wall when the war starts, but people have to know they exist by that time and their own beliefs who they think is best suited to defeat them might have more to do with the fighting than the throne stuff.

Stannis is already believing this is his destiny, Aegon will learn his father believed he was the promised prince, Euron will be a powerful sorcerer who has the magics to crush the Others, and Dany has the dragons on her side, etc.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Not really. This is ASoIaF and not GoT. The great climax will be the great climax. There might be some sort of cleaning up to be done after the Others are dealt with, but no proper war. And regardless how worse Aegon is going to get, I very much doubt he'll not back the good guys against the Others if he lives enough to do so. There could be a betrayal or a murder afterwards, of course, but no proper war. And whoever decided to use the fight against the Others as pretext/opportunity to seize power in the capital is going to be crushed by the wrath of Westeros once the Others are dealt with. Because that will be seen as the ultimate betrayal.

This could indeed be the aftermatch, because there is always someone stupid enough to try something like that.

As for the rest: We do agree on this. Just as @QhorinQuarterhand wrote, we were just playing though shortcut scenarios, and if Martin would decide to cut, it could be done more elegantly in Westeros than in Essos.

However: I highly doubt Martin will cut anything - there will be at least three very thick books.

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On 5/19/2020 at 11:03 PM, Ser Gareth said:

Dany will arrive in Westeros before the Others breach the Wall.  GRRM confirmed that much almost 20 years ago now when book four (after the five year gap) was going to start with Dany landing on the shores of Westeros.

The original post-gap Book 4 opened with Dany marrying Hizdahr. I actually thought it opened with Drogon carrying her out of the arena, but I was corrected on that and no, it was the marriage (so there's not actually that many "during the gap" chapters for Dany in ADWD). It certainly didn't open with her landing on the shores of Westeros.

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On 5/21/2020 at 1:56 AM, Werthead said:

The original post-gap Book 4 opened with Dany marrying Hizdahr. I actually thought it opened with Drogon carrying her out of the arena, but I was corrected on that and no, it was the marriage (so there's not actually that many "during the gap" chapters for Dany in ADWD). It certainly didn't open with her landing on the shores of Westeros.

Source?  Certainly not what I read in an interview from GRRM.  Book 4, dealt with Dany's arrival in Westeros.  Book 5, the battle with the others.  Book 6, dealt with the aftermath of the battle with the Others (which we now know what that is about).

 

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3 hours ago, Ser Gareth said:

Source?  Certainly not what I read in an interview from GRRM.  Book 4, dealt with Dany's arrival in Westeros.  Book 5, the battle with the others.  Book 6, dealt with the aftermath of the battle with the Others (which we now know what that is about).

 

Source? I'd like to listen to that interview!

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Here.

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There's a Dany scene in the book which is actually one of the oldest chapters in the book that goes back almost ten years now. When I was contemplating the five year gap [Martin laughs here, with some chagrin], that chapter was supposed to be the first Daenerys chapter in the book. Then it became the second chapter, and then the third chapter, and it kept getting pushed back as I inserted more things into it. I've rewritten that chapter so much that it ended in many different ways.

I believe people first though this was Drogon in the pit but I believe @Ran later clarified it was the marriage (although a Google search can't find confirmation of that now, since this is one of the most debated points in the history of ASoIaF).

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If I had to guess then the chapter that's listed as Daenerys 4 in the old pre-release ADwD forum is the one which, in draft form, goes back to the starting point of the Dany plot in the post-gap scenario.

This was originally the second Dany chapter in the middle of the 2000s until it was pushed back further and further, and it may have culminated with Dany flying away on Drogon (although the reading didn't reach that point if it was indeed already part of that chapter). It describes the opening of the fighting pits, and extends as far as Drogon feeding on Barsena.

Could be that there was a Dany-Hizdahr marriage in the original post-gap scenario, but I'd be surprised if this were the case. It would have made more sense for Dany and Hizdahr to already be married by that time, and start the book immediately with the opening of the fighting pits and Dany's subsequent disappearance.

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7 hours ago, Werthead said:

Here.

I believe people first though this was Drogon in the pit but I believe @Ran later clarified it was the marriage (although a Google search can't find confirmation of that now, since this is one of the most debated points in the history of ASoIaF).

I can't recall anything about discussion back then, but I suspect the chapter in question is indeed Drogon in the pit. That chapter in the form that I have it in the pre-AFfC split partial manuscript, did not contain anything to do with an assassination attempt on Dany, her being married, or Dany riding off on Drogon. 

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