Do we think George passed 1500 manuscript pages?

[Mister Smikes]

20 hours ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

I suspect that GRRM is worried that he wrote way too much and is trying to figure out how to cut it down. Honestly I don't get why he can't have the books have larger pages so he could fit more content.

Okay, but aren't you arguing against your own guess?  If you don't assume his problem is that he wrote way too much, you resolve your own objection.

[LindsayLohan]

I'm willing to bet it's less than 200 pages.

[Werthead]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:34 PM, Rubicante said:

2. Has there ever been a situation where a writer realized they didn’t have it in them to do heavy duty writing anymore, and then teamed up with somebody else to have their series finished? So for example, the main author identified the type of chapters they wanted written, and the other person would do the heavy writing?

I am aware of one author who tried this. Patrick Tilley wrote the first six volumes of his Amtrak Wars series in the 1980s and then stopped, as the series had a natural break point he was going to use to write something else and then come back and write the second half of the series, which would be set 20 years later with a mostly new cast. However, he ran into writer's block, then real-world events sapped his enthusiasm for writing violent fiction. After an aborted effort to wrap the story up in a trilogy in the early 2000s, as he was approaching 80, he turned to another writer and worked with him for a while on the project, but concluded that he'd never be happy with someone else using his ideas and characters.

There was a difference there in that Amtrak Wars had been a reasonable success at the time, but it didn't have a massive fanbase of many millions of fans eagerly awaiting the next book, and in the pre-Internet age the pressure was nowhere near what it is here.

Quote

Statements of actual progress, such as "I have a total of 922 manuscript pages completed" (which he has never said, though he once gave analogous updates on DANCE)

As George noted, he used this system on AFFC (and even, to a lesser and less-necessary degree, on ASoS) and it worked more or less well for him. On ADWD it kept backfiring, because he only gives manuscript page completion numbers for material that he is 100% certain is finished and done. If he is not sure it's done, he punts it off to the "hundreds of pages in drafts," pile, whether it's a very loose draft that still needs hours of work or a 99%-completed chapter which is almost done, but he's not happy with one niggling element that might be fixed quite quickly but he can't think of how to do it just then.

With ADWD, the Meereenese Knot situation saw him report having 900 MS pages completed, but then he realised that those chapters weren't working from a timeline/continuity POV (although they were fine when read individually) so he threw them out and the next month he only had 800 MS pages completed. He considered this a major failure of planning and reporting. Because of that, for TWoW he decided not to report how many MS pages he had completed, because his feeling is that information is no longer relevant because it is no longer a reliable guide to when he may or may not be done.

Quote

The fact that GRRM said "screw you" to fans speculating about his death; in no way counts as evidence that he wishes to screw his heirs out of lucrative intellectual property rights, or that some extraordinary attempt to vest such rights in "nobody at all"  would succeed legally.  And as for his literary heirs (the ones with sequel rights), we do not even know who they will be, much less what their wishes will be, decades hence.

George stated offhand, at WorldCon 2013, that he would ensure an ending to ASoIaF in the event of his passing as long as he had advanced notice (I believe Robert Jordan's name was mentioned as an example), but he would be unhappy (well, he wouldn't care really, but the thought was unhappy) with someone finishing the series after his passing without his permission and without any notes to base things off; it'd just be fanfiction, no matter how professionally or well-handled. This tracks with his oft-repeated statement that we would be "shit out of luck" if he was hit by a bus tomorrow, but if he was given a 5-year warning, say, by a doctor he would take decisive action to ensure the series is done. I do get the impression, especially post-Fire and Blood and his oft-mentioned praise for Christopher Tolkien, that this would be in the form of a detailed outline accompanied by whatever completed chapters he had in progress. Him passing the book off to another writer seems something he is uninterested in, especially since the only writers I can see him even vaguely considering (his friends and Expanse co-authors Ty Franck and Daniel Abraham) recently ruled themselves out from the idea.

GRRM's literary heirs would also continue to benefit financially from sales of the existing books and profits made from the deal with HBO. They would make a fairly substantial amount of money that way without publishing any more books, but if they did, at least in that circumstance a detailed outline would be available to base the fiction around.

[Ninefingers]

I just don't see a non-George ending being written. In my mind, it only happens for one of three reasons:

1. George wants "George's ending" out there. 
2. There is a feeling that fans are owed an ending.
3. His heirs want to cash in. 

These all feel unlikely to me. The fans have an ending of sorts, any ending not written by George won't truly be his, and his heirs will be too stinkin' rich to need to violate his wishes. 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

7 hours ago, Werthead said:

With ADWD, the Meereenese Knot situation saw him report having 900 MS pages completed, but then he realised that those chapters weren't working from a timeline/continuity POV (although they were fine when read individually) so he threw them out and the next month he only had 800 MS pages completed. He considered this a major failure of planning and reporting.

Do you think something similar happened with TWoW, which is why he was so optimistic back in 2015, or do you have a different take?

[Werthead]

59 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Do you think something similar happened with TWoW, which is why he was so optimistic back in 2015, or do you have a different take?

I think that's a viable idea. Not long before that report, he indicated he'd not been doing as much rewriting as normal and he was focusing on running through the book and moving forwards and not continuously rewriting. I suspect what he was trying to do was replicate the system that worked with ASoS, where he wrote the book relatively quickly and that limited his self-admitted tendency to procrastinate and rewrite even when what he had was pretty good (in his ADWD post-mortem he notes his fear that his rewrites sometimes make a chapter worse rather than better, and he's too close to realise).

I suspect that what worked with ASoS did not work with TWoW where the aftereffects of the Meereenese Knot have not been fully resolved and there are still timeline issues in play, and I think he was also keen to ensure that enough things happened to make finishing in one more book after TWoW viable, which might require extensive restructuring or rewrites. I also suspect that with the immense mega-success of GoT, his formerly hard-set page count limit for the book became a moving target, so now if he delivers a 1700 or 2000 manuscript-page book, the publishers can work with that, whilst they couldn't in 2011, and that could be both a blessing (he doesn't have to spend ages tightening chapters up or punting chapters out of TWoW and into ADoS) and a curse (especially if he feels the long wait requires him to deliver a much bigger book to make up for it).

Of course, we don't know any of this for sure. It's also speculation and supposition, and will remain so until he finishes the thing and lets us know what happened.

[Mister Smikes]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:34 PM, Rubicante said:

2. Has there ever been a situation where a writer realized they didn’t have it in them to do heavy duty writing anymore, and then teamed up with somebody else to have their series finished? So for example, the main author identified the type of chapters they wanted written, and the other person would do the heavy writing?

About 5 years before his death, Robert Asprin teamed up with Jody Lynn Nye to co-author his MythAdventure series.  Following his death, she has done solo efforts in the series.  I don't know if you think that counts though, since I don't think there was ever a plan to have the series "finish".  I think the idea was that there would be always room for one more volume.

[Mister Smikes]

@Rubicante

Also, Andre Norton worked with co-authors a fair bit as she aged.  I think some of these were series novels, but I'm not too familiar with them.

Getting back to GRRM, he actually give a shot to the idea of letting a co-author do most of the heavy lifting on an ASOIAF series book ... in a sense.  This was the whole idea behind the World Book project.  But GRRM ended up doing up far more of the "heavy lifting" than he intended.    

[Kyll.Ing.]

13 hours ago, Ninefingers said:

I just don't see a non-George ending being written. In my mind, it only happens for one of three reasons:

1. George wants "George's ending" out there. 
2. There is a feeling that fans are owed an ending.
3. His heirs want to cash in. 

These all feel unlikely to me. The fans have an ending of sorts, any ending not written by George won't truly be his, and his heirs will be too stinkin' rich to need to violate his wishes. 

 

On the contrary, I think the publication of multiple endings would be inevitable if Martin passes away before finishing the series.

ASoIaF is, after all, one of the most popular fantasy series ever. The books have captured the minds of millions, and the TV show was one of the greatest successes in TV history. If Martin doesn't finish the series, it would be the great unfinished tale of a generation. There would be hundreds of authors wanting to take a crack at piecing together an ending from the text of the published novels. Various unofficial continuations of the story would be widely circulated, some probably by quite merited authors.

Something like it has happened many times before. Charles Dickens died halfway through the writing of a murder mystery. Hergé died with an uncompleted Tintin comic on his desk. Jane Austen's last book was never completed. Neither were those of Franz Kafka or Robert L. Stevenson. Wikipedia has a long article listing other examples.

In many cases, even when expressly against the will of the authors, others have come along and published endings to those unfinished tales. Wherever there is a fanbase left hungry for a conclusion to a story (if not an official one, then at least a competently written one), authors will step up to supply it. An unfinished ASoIaF would be way too big a tale to resist such a fate. The heirs, copyright holders, and their lawyers could fight it all they want, but it would happen nonetheless. A century down the line, people would still be arguing which ending is the best one. I'm fairly certain they won't find that of the TV show to be it, even though it may be considered "the original".

[Ninefingers]

Eh, reasonable folks can differ. It's not unfinished in my mind. I know how it ends. I'd be interested in reading the way George gets to that ending. Anything else would just be fanfic. 

Cheers.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

23 hours ago, Werthead said:

Of course, we don't know any of this for sure. It's also speculation and supposition, and will remain so until he finishes the thing and lets us know what happened.

Also, didn't he say at one point that one of his biggest regrets is that he went on a long book tour after finishing ADWD instead of jumping straight into TWoW when he had momentum? My big hope is that he won't make the same mistake when he finishes TWoW, but if history is any indication, he probably won't be able to resist other projects.

[The Bard of Banefort]

This may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but given how long it’s taking to finish the books, I’m concerned that there’s going to be more backlash when TWOW/ADOS are eventually released. Not because of the quality, but because we’re now in the midst of a very moralistic climate where people can’t seem to separate reality from fiction, or the past from the present (and judging by the internet, this is an international phenomenon). The hardcore fans probably won’t care, but I’m sure he’ll get flak from reviewers/columnists. There will be a bunch of garbage articles about how problematic ASOIAF is and how it is “a relic from a different time.”

[CamiloRP]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but given how long it’s taking to finish the books, I’m concerned that there’s going to be more backlash when TWOW/ADOS are eventually released. Not because of the quality, but because we’re now in the midst of a very moralistic climate where people can’t seem to separate reality from fiction, or the past from the present (and judging by the internet, this is an international phenomenon). The hardcore fans probably won’t care, but I’m sure he’ll get flak from reviewers/columnists. There will be a bunch of garbage articles about how problematic ASOIAF is and how it is “a relic from a different time.”

I fear the opposite, I fear diet nazis protesting it because it's SJW propaganda or some other bullshit. There's a lot of diet nazis who like GOT and even ASOIAF, that's because they are unable (or unwilling) to see the themes and meaning GRRM wove into it, but when the ending nears, those themes become much more evident and harder to ignore, and I don't know how George would be able to cope with having a bunch of diet nazis screaming at him.

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I fear the opposite, I fear diet nazis protesting it because it's SJW propaganda or some other bullshit. There's a lot of diet nazis who like GOT and even ASOIAF, that's because they are unable (or unwilling) to see the themes and meaning GRRM wove into it, but when the ending nears, those themes become much more evident and harder to ignore, and I don't know how George would be able to cope with having a bunch of diet nazis screaming at him.

What in ASOIAF would be considered SJW though?

[Jaenara Belarys]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but given how long it’s taking to finish the books, I’m concerned that there’s going to be more backlash when TWOW/ADOS are eventually released. Not because of the quality, but because we’re now in the midst of a very moralistic climate where people can’t seem to separate reality from fiction, or the past from the present (and judging by the internet, this is an international phenomenon). The hardcore fans probably won’t care, but I’m sure he’ll get flak from reviewers/columnists. There will be a bunch of garbage articles about how problematic ASOIAF is and how it is “a relic from a different time.”

Those idiots can stuff their criticism where the sun don't shine. 

13 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I fear the opposite, I fear diet nazis protesting it because it's SJW propaganda or some other bullshit. There's a lot of diet nazis who like GOT and even ASOIAF, that's because they are unable (or unwilling) to see the themes and meaning GRRM wove into it, but when the ending nears, those themes become much more evident and harder to ignore, and I don't know how George would be able to cope with having a bunch of diet nazis screaming at him.

What on Earth's a diet Nazi? 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

26 minutes ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Those idiots can stuff their criticism where the sun don't shine. 

GRRM has said that he always writes "for himself", so I don't think he gets too affected by criticism.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

GRRM has said that he always writes "for himself", so I don't think he gets too affected by criticism.

I hope you’re right. I hope the GOT backlash hasn’t affected him too much either.

That said, it’s going to be really annoying to see people drag this series through the mud for being “problematic.” Just wait until someone finds that clip of George saying that Hitler was nice to dogs. . . 

[CamiloRP]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

What in ASOIAF would be considered SJW though?

The themes about pacifism, social justice, feminism, anti-religion, anti monarchy (yes, there are people online defending monarchy), solidarity, empathy, non discrimination and generally George being a dirty hippie. Bonus point: if the Targaryen master race ends up being fake, that'll be considered SJW for a bunch of eugenicists.

 

5 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

What on Earth's a diet Nazi? 

Nazis that aren't out and proud, people who stan nazis without realizing they are nazis (but supporting their politics and opinions on race, gender, sexuality and such), those who claim oppression by minority groups barely existing, gamergate rejects, you know the type the 'complain way too much on twitter because an LGBT character was portrayed in a cartoon' crowd.

[SeanBeanedMeUp]

On 9/14/2021 at 3:23 PM, Mister Smikes said:

Okay, but aren't you arguing against your own guess?  If you don't assume his problem is that he wrote way too much, you resolve your own objection.

I've been wondering a lot of things.

Honestly he could just make the pages bigger at least so he can stuff in more shit.

[MelisandresBurningPanties]

On 9/22/2021 at 2:55 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

This may seem like a silly thing to worry about, but given how long it’s taking to finish the books, I’m concerned that there’s going to be more backlash when TWOW/ADOS are eventually released. Not because of the quality, but because we’re now in the midst of a very moralistic climate where people can’t seem to separate reality from fiction, or the past from the present (and judging by the internet, this is an international phenomenon). The hardcore fans probably won’t care, but I’m sure he’ll get flak from reviewers/columnists. There will be a bunch of garbage articles about how problematic ASOIAF is and how it is “a relic from a different time.”

In the words of George Martin himself, i say " Fuck you" to these people. 

As should any balanced, minimally intelligent , logical mind. 

 

ps: i iactually meant to reply to this quoted post, MODS, please delete previous post. Tks.