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Quaithe from Asshai

Do we think George passed 1500 manuscript pages?

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2 hours ago, QhorinQuarterhand said:

Thank you. That isn't very long considering he'd have to have delivered it around the middle point of those dates. 2-3 months more work on AFFC before delivering it. That isn't very long at all. 

The decision was made about a month earlier, at the tail end of April or start of May, he only announced it at his next convention appearance. It was before that point because when he announced the split, it had already been completed. He'd already gone in and pulled out the completed chapters, assembled them into the AFFC configuration and sent it off to his editor, who'd gone over the MS and accepted it.

Ha, two of the chapters that got pulled out during that period were "The Prophet" and "Mercy," which ended up getting pushed all the way to TWoW.

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

The decision was made about a month earlier, at the tail end of April or start of May, he only announced it at his next convention appearance. It was before that point because when he announced the split, it had already been completed. He'd already gone in and pulled out the completed chapters, assembled them into the AFFC configuration and sent it off to his editor, who'd gone over the MS and accepted it.

Ha, two of the chapters that got pulled out during that period were "The Prophet" and "Mercy," which ended up getting pushed all the way to TWoW.

The Prophet was in AFFC probably you ment a different chapter

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13 hours ago, Quaithe from Asshai said:

The Prophet was in AFFC probably you ment a different chapter

Oh yeah, I got it mixed up with The Forsaken.

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15 hours ago, Werthead said:

Ha, two of the chapters that got pulled out during that period were "The Prophet" and "Mercy," which ended up getting pushed all the way to TWoW.

Mercy in its present state was finished for publication in AFfC? Do you know that for certain? That could explain why we still have Raff and the guy talk about Cersei as if she were still in charge ... if it had been a part of AFfC it would have taken place, presumably, before Cersei's arrest (or before Harys Swyft and his gang would have known about said arrest).

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55 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Mercy in its present state was finished for publication in AFfC? Do you know that for certain? That could explain why we still have Raff and the guy talk about Cersei as if she were still in charge ... if it had been a part of AFfC it would have taken place, presumably, before Cersei's arrest (or before Harys Swyft and his gang would have known about said arrest).

Not necessarily in "its present state", but "Mercy" was the first Arya chapter written for the post-five-year-gap version of ADWD (i.e. it would have been the first time we saw her after she got on the ship at Saltpans at the end of ASoS). All of Arya's AFFC chapters were written after the September 2001 decision to pull the five-year gap and then "Mercy" was steadily pushed back by new Arya chapter after new chapter until it dropped out of the end of AFFC into ADWD, and then it was pushed out of ADWD into TWoW.

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39 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Not necessarily in "its present state", but "Mercy" was the first Arya chapter written for the post-five-year-gap version of ADWD (i.e. it would have been the first time we saw her after she got on the ship at Saltpans at the end of ASoS). All of Arya's AFFC chapters were written after the September 2001 decision to pull the five-year gap and then "Mercy" was steadily pushed back by new Arya chapter after new chapter until it dropped out of the end of AFFC into ADWD, and then it was pushed out of ADWD into TWoW.

Yeah, that I knew. I just wondered whether you heard whether there was a specific decision made that the Mercy chapter were know was pushed back (possibly along with the other two Arya chapters from ADwD) to the next book.

The way I thought it could/would have been that George actually wrote/finished the two Arya chapters from ADwD after AFfC was published in 2005. After all, the Cat chapter definitely needed at least one other chapter, possibly two (as we got) before the Mercy chapter setting of Arya being with Izembaro made sense.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, that I knew. I just wondered whether you heard whether there was a specific decision made that the Mercy chapter were know was pushed back (possibly along with the other two Arya chapters from ADwD) to the next book.

The way I thought it could/would have been that George actually wrote/finished the two Arya chapters from ADwD after AFfC was published in 2005. After all, the Cat chapter definitely needed at least one other chapter, possibly two (as we got) before the Mercy chapter setting of Arya being with Izembaro made sense.

When AFFC was completed, he did say he had more completed Arya chapters, which I think were taken to mean her chapters from ADWD (maybe all of them), plus we now know "Mercy" as well (and I wonder if any post-Mercy material had been completed by that point as well).

Quote

I definitely think that Areo was created solely  because George doesn’t want us sharing Doran’s head space yet.

George has an informal rule that none of the actual big players themselves should have POVs, and certainly no-one who knows "where the bodies are buried" (which is why we'll never, ever get a Howland Reed, Littlefinger or Varys POV). Ned I think was as close to that as he wanted to get to that. Of course, he has said since that he regretted not making Robb a POV character, but I think that would have been a mistake (and would have added a lot of bulk to the first three books).

I think he also knew that Arianne was going to leave Dorne, so he needed to establish a second POV close to Doran so we can get his input on events (Areo is very much the Davos to Doran's Stannis).

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1 minute ago, Werthead said:

When AFFC was completed, he did say he had more completed Arya chapters, which I think were taken to mean her chapters from ADWD (maybe all of them), plus we now know "Mercy" as well (and I wonder if any post-Mercy material had been completed by that point as well).

I think he went on record years ago stating that he really had to restrain himself from writing more Braavos chapters with Arya. I imagine that indicates he had a pretty clear how to continue after Mercy, but realized how great a story Arya's actual training with the Faceless Men prior to that moment in the training would be. And it is a great story. AFfC would have greatly profited if it had had more Arya chapters.

I actually could see another chapter taking place before 'Mercy' since her arrival at Izembaro's and her first days there could also be not uninteresting. Mercy has her there being long enough to have received considerable acting training.

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

George has an informal rule that none of the actual big players themselves should have POVs, and certainly no-one who knows "where the bodies are buried" (which is why we'll never, ever get a Howland Reed, Littlefinger or Varys POV). Ned I think was as close to that as he wanted to get to that. Of course, he has said since that he regretted not making Robb a POV character, but I think that would have been a mistake (and would have added a lot of bulk to the first three books).

I think that rule is finally starting to break down. Melisandre definitely is a character with a lot of knowledge, as is Barristan Selmy and even Jaime/Cersei, to a lesser degree.

I still don't think Varys or Littlefinger will ever be POVs, but George definitely could make them Prologue/Epilogue or other one-shots without giving everything away.

The old rule to don't have rulers/pretenders as POV, aside from people like Dany who might eventually end up in such a position. Cressen and Davos were specifically created so that George didn't have to write Stannis' POV. Which, to be sure, might also not be that great an idea since Stannis may have been a really great POV in his own right. Certainly more tantalizing as a person as Davos.

1 minute ago, Werthead said:

I think he also knew that Arianne was going to leave Dorne, so he needed to establish a second POV close to Doran so we can get his input on events (Areo is very much the Davos to Doran's Stannis).

As I said, I'm really interested how Areo's story continues. He could return to Doran ... but he could also start his own journey leading him from High Hermitage to Starfall to ... whoever knows, really.

Doran Martell isn't really important anymore as a character. Arianne has given authority to decide whether Dorne joins Aegon or not, and what he thinks and does back home while 20,000 Dornishmen march to war isn't really important, I'd think. If Euron ends up killing him and Trystane, sacking Sunspear and/or the Water Gardens it would be great to see that via a POV, but this could also just be reported.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

if it had been a part of AFfC it would have taken place, presumably, before Cersei's arrest (or before Harys Swyft and his gang would have known about said arrest).

Is it possible Harys' crew simply hadn't heared the news of Cersei's arrest yet? I know news travels fast to Braavos, but still. 

Edited by Jekse

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

When AFFC was completed, he did say he had more completed Arya chapters, which I think were taken to mean her chapters from ADWD (maybe all of them), plus we now know "Mercy" as well (and I wonder if any post-Mercy material had been completed by that point as well).

George has an informal rule that none of the actual big players themselves should have POVs, and certainly no-one who knows "where the bodies are buried" (which is why we'll never, ever get a Howland Reed, Littlefinger or Varys POV). Ned I think was as close to that as he wanted to get to that. Of course, he has said since that he regretted not making Robb a POV character, but I think that would have been a mistake (and would have added a lot of bulk to the first three books).

I think he also knew that Arianne was going to leave Dorne, so he needed to establish a second POV close to Doran so we can get his input on events (Areo is very much the Davos to Doran's Stannis).

Well at some point he is going to need some characters to tell us where the bodies are buried. I think that leaves room for a Varys, Howland etc Prologue or Epilogue. Or any one off chapter where they die at the end.

Then of course George made sure Ned was near death sick from his broken leg and torture when he did get somewhat specific. And still most of that is also in a fevre dream. 

He did the same with Jaime's account to Brienne, now that I think about it.

It's just my opinion but I think George might have only meant he regretted not having Robb as the Red Wedding POV. I think it could have been even more surprising (his words) if it was from Robb's POV. 

I do wonder why more authors don't use the strict 3rd person pov style with rotating characters like George does. Maybe the need to create characters and thus chapters like Areo's to avoid spoilers is a big factor?

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1 hour ago, Jekse said:

Is it possible Harys' crew simply hadn't heared the news of Cersei's arrest yet? I know news travels fast to Braavos, but still. 

I don't think this can be ruled out. Plus the version of Mercy that gets published in TWOW could have at least minor changes from the preview GRRM released.

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3 hours ago, Jekse said:

Is it possible Harys' crew simply hadn't heared the news of Cersei's arrest yet? I know news travels fast to Braavos, but still. 

Swyft was still at the King's Landing during the Epilogue of ADwD, which itself was at least amonth after Cersei's arrest, maybe two.

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Posted (edited)

Honest advice: just stop messing around with the sample chapters and take it as it is, not how you want it to be. It is confirmed that Cersei will return to power soon and she will send Swyft to Braavos. Case closed.

Edited by Mithras

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Quote

I think that rule is finally starting to break down. Melisandre definitely is a character with a lot of knowledge, as is Barristan Selmy and even Jaime/Cersei, to a lesser degree.

The point of Melisandre's POV is to show us that she knows jack shit and her primary skill to date has been badly misinterpreting the information she's been getting from magical means. Melisandre was set up to be an important character with major knowledge but now we know that's not true and she's as much in the dark as anyone else, she just has a greater skillset to be wrong with.

Barristan has a small amount of knowledge about very specific things (Ashara/Brandon most notably) which is useful but not critical to know.

Quote

I do wonder why more authors don't use the strict 3rd person pov style with rotating characters like George does. Maybe the need to create characters and thus chapters like Areo's to avoid spoilers is a big factor?

Stephen Donaldson's Gap Saga uses the same device. It's where George borrowed the idea from.

Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series does as well, but it's a little bit more flexible there. The chapters are not always dedicated to one character apiece, so sometimes if he needs to touch base with another character for five seconds but not a whole chapter, he'll do a little cutaway at the end of the chapter to someone else before doing a POV switch. He also sometimes does several chapters from the same POV in a row, and is a lot happier to use one-off POVs in the middle of a book, or very minor POVs he uses two or three times in the entire series and doesn't need to kill them off. He also has multi-POV, big prologues which GRRM attempted to do for AFFC.

The Expanse uses the same system as George as well.

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On 7/1/2020 at 12:45 AM, Werthead said:

The point of Melisandre's POV is to show us that she knows jack shit and her primary skill to date has been badly misinterpreting the information she's been getting from magical means. Melisandre was set up to be an important character with major knowledge but now we know that's not true and she's as much in the dark as anyone else, she just has a greater skillset to be wrong with.

I'd honestly say Mel knows more about the really interesting things than, say, Littlefinger or Varys (Varys would have a lot of interesting historical knowledge about past plots and certainly very interesting things about things behind the scenes in the first three books, but we wouldn't expect him or Littlefinger to know anything about prophecy and Others stuff).

Melisandre definitely knows who she herself is, why she believes in the prophecies she believes (among that the actual content of said prophecies), why she believes Stannis is the savior, why she went to Dragonstone, etc.

And then she also has a lot of insight into the dynamics of Stannis' court and family - things Davos would and could never know.

Her POV actually shows that George could have a Varys/Littlefinger POV without giving much away - just as he does, so far, with the Jon Connington and Barristan Selmy chapters. Like he did with Ned back in AGoT - he can dance around the elephant in the room, for instance the exact nature of the relationship of Rhaegar and Lyanna, without giving too much away. Even in Jaime's POV the truth about the murder of Aerys came only to light slowly, just as the truth about Tysha was merely hinted at to be then revealed in a Tyrion chapter.

On 7/1/2020 at 12:45 AM, Werthead said:

Barristan has a small amount of knowledge about very specific things (Ashara/Brandon most notably) which is useful but not critical to know.

Next to Jon Connington he is likely our best POV on the reign of Aerys II (and even Jaehaerys II, the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and the last decade of Aegon V's reign - not that the latter is all that important), Robert's Rebellion, and its aftermath.

Barristan Selmy should know nearly everything that is to know about things behind the scenes at the court of the Mad King ... and at Robert's court. He would have witnessed more conversations behind closed as well and heard more court gossip than any other POV.

If there are more things to be revealed about Tywin-Joanna-Aerys he would be a major source, as well as about any revelations between Aerys-Rhaegar after the latter returned from the south (at a time when Connington was already in exile), and so on and so forth.

He (and Connington) would also be main POV sources if George is ever going to drop this novel-spanning background information about Harrenhal on us. They are the two POVs who actually attended and participated in the entire tourney.

They are not Varys/Littlefinger in relation to current plots and schemes, but they are gold mines if we are talking about the past and background information.

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On 6/30/2020 at 3:45 PM, Werthead said:

 

Stephen Donaldson's Gap Saga uses the same device. It's where George borrowed the idea from.

Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series does as well, but it's a little bit more flexible there. The chapters are not always dedicated to one character apiece, so sometimes if he needs to touch base with another character for five seconds but not a whole chapter, he'll do a little cutaway at the end of the chapter to someone else before doing a POV switch. He also sometimes does several chapters from the same POV in a row, and is a lot happier to use one-off POVs in the middle of a book, or very minor POVs he uses two or three times in the entire series and doesn't need to kill them off. He also has multi-POV, big prologues which GRRM attempted to do for AFFC.

The Expanse uses the same system as George as well.

Thank you! Not only recommendations, but one is the guy that inspired George to do it? That's epic! It looks like I'll have to get around to finally reading WOT then. George has broken my ability to read stuff like Malazan where the POV rotates every few paragraphs (I only made it about 100 pages before starting my 6th read of ASOIAF instead). In comparison to ASOIAF, that style feels like I'm reading bullet points instead of a story. 

I'll have to read the Expanse. I've seen 3 seasons of the show and it's awesome. It is written by George's friend Daniel and (former?) assistant Ty, so The Expanse might be as close to an actual George imitation as we'll ever get. Of course I'm saying that without having read a word of the books yet. 

I also have The Prince of Nothing series in my to read pile because from what I've read it also rotates POVs each chapter, between I think 6 characters. 

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He hasn't even passed 500 pages. 200 pages he had allready written during ADWD. From 2011 he could have written max. 300 pages.

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17 hours ago, Dalinar said:

He hasn't even passed 500 pages. 200 pages he had allready written during ADWD. From 2011 he could have written max. 300 pages.

Wow! Great contribution!! 

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