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miyuki

About the grand Tyrell conspiracy

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I read the entire grand Tyrell conspiracy multiple times and I just don't believe it.

Can someone convince me it's believable? Written text doesn't much support it.

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The only version of that I recall is the one that was tossed around prior to the ADwD - it was nonsense then and has effectively died the quiet death nonsense dies after ADwD came out.

Basically it said the Tyrells were somehow behind everything in AFfC.

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Grand conspiracy seems like a bit of a stretch but elements of it might be true.

 

"Let's dispel with this fiction that Mace Tyrell doesn't know what he's doing."

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I never heard of this conspiracy. Then again, I am relatively new to the fandom.

On 12/2/2019 at 11:32 PM, Lord Varys said:

The only version of that I recall is the one that was tossed around prior to the ADwD - it was nonsense then and has effectively died the quiet death nonsense dies after ADwD came out.

Basically it said the Tyrells were somehow behind everything in AFfC.

Everything?

I don't know but I do think they are nowhere near as innocent and humble as they appear to be. The Tyrells are a grasping bunch...

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13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I never heard of this conspiracy. Then again, I am relatively new to the fandom.

Everything?

I don't know but I do think they are nowhere near as innocent and humble as they appear to be. The Tyrells are a grasping bunch...

Well, everything that happened at court in AFfC. They controlled Aurane and nothing ever happened to Loras on Dragonstone. Margaery was conferring with Olenna who was hiding out in the woods somewhere to advise Margaery. The whole arrest of Margaery was a trap for Cersei she went into willingly, etc.

I can't put together the various variants of that, but it was the kind of thing you get when you have to much time between books and look for patterns that are definitely not there. Part of the whole thing also was that without the Aegon plot we were at a complete loss what the point was to have the Lannisters and Tyrells ruin each other? What was the point of them descending into backstabbing and civil war while Dany was still half a world away? Nobody expected Aegon to beat Dany and go to Westeros first and without her or dragons. It was consensus among most serious people that an Aegon would come and the Griff fellow mentioned in a Tyrion sample chapter Connington, but we did not expect what happened in ADwD in that department.

It is quite clear that Tyrells do have plans. And ambitions. Mace showed that very well in the Epilogue and there are other hints back in ASoS at council session where Tyrion observes Mace. He is not subtle in his ambitions at all.

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On 12/3/2019 at 12:46 AM, miyuki said:

I read the entire grand Tyrell conspiracy multiple times and I just don't believe it.

Can someone convince me it's believable? Written text doesn't much support it.

It's not really believable. I think part of the resurgence is due to the TV show, unfortunately, which paints Olenna Tyrell as being the real power of the house and her bumbling son does everything she says, whereas in the novels it's quite clear that Mace runs the show and Olenna just tries to mitigate things, often without his knowledge or approval.

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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, everything that happened at court in AFfC. [snip] nothing ever happened to Loras on Dragonstone.

:D

Oh well, I knew that. Or I rather, I used to think Loras was injured but the Tyrells played it up as if Loras is on the verge of death. I think Loras is actually going to be the key to the Targaryen-Tyrell alliance in A Dream of Spring.

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Margaery was conferring with Olenna who was hiding out in the woods somewhere to advise Margaery.

This, I believe. Well, not the hiding out in the woods part.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I can't put together the various variants of that, but it was the kind of thing you get when you have to much time between books and look for patterns that are definitely not there. Part of the whole thing also was that without the Aegon plot we were at a complete loss what the point was to have the Lannisters and Tyrells ruin each other? What was the point of them descending into backstabbing and civil war while Dany was still half a world away? Nobody expected Aegon to beat Dany and go to Westeros first and without her or dragons. It was consensus among most serious people that an Aegon would come and the Griff fellow mentioned in a Tyrion sample chapter Connington, but we did not expect what happened in ADwD in that department.

It is quite clear that Tyrells do have plans. And ambitions. Mace showed that very well in the Epilogue and there are other hints back in ASoS at council session where Tyrion observes Mace. He is not subtle in his ambitions at all.

Exactly. The Tyrells are basically the Lannisters 2.0

Just a stronger, more loving family.

For me, I just thought that the whole point of the Lannister-Tyrell feud was to show how Tywin Lannister was literally holding the nation together by sheer force of will and that his children are worse than he is and will destroy his legacy and the nation.

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3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

:D

Oh well, I knew that. Or I rather, I used to think Loras was injured but the Tyrells played it up as if Loras is on the verge of death. I think Loras is actually going to be the key to the Targaryen-Tyrell alliance in A Dream of Spring.

Oh, if something like that happens it will be Willas and Garlan who are both going to be more prominent in the future, especially Willas (although I think George has already revealed Garlan is going to show up in TWoW).

The Epilogue effectively confirms that Loras did take Dragonstone, and thus we can also assume he has been injured, although Mace doesn't show any visible concern at the council meeting about his health, so I guess he is likely to live and be disfigured in some fashion rather than crippled or dying.

In fact, I've wanted a Tyrell POV for a long time and still hope we'll get at least one of those. A Loras POV on Dragonstone could be nice just to see Pylos again (who I assume is still there) and get more of a feeling for the place but it might be actually much better to give as Willas's POV at whatever point he is going to start influencing the policies of Westeros (which likely is going to happen on a grand scale as soon as Mace dies - which is not all that unlikely considering the fact that he overestimates his abilities as a politician and - which is worse - as a general).

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

This, I believe. Well, not the hiding out in the woods part.

Ah, no, that's just nonsense.

There are some things there - obviously the Senelle thing was a means by Margaery-Taena to get Cersei to trust Taena - but it is just as obvious that Taena is playing the Tyrells and Lannisters against each other (possibly because Orton and she, who was an exile in Essos for some years, have ties to the Golden Company). The giveaway is the fact that Taena repeatedly refuses/postpones to bring her son Russell to court - which is something a noble lady truly looking for advancement at court would do, especially if the Queen Regent asked her to make her son a playmate and companion of the king himself. That would ensure House Merryweather's well-being and rise to the top of the food chain for a generations to come!

The other is the fact that Orton/Taena flee the city after Cersei's arrest - if they had been working with the Tyrells or had been loyal to Cersei they would have freed at least one of the queens using the strength left in the city (or there would have been no need to do that because the Faith had been in on the plan). Them fleeing indicates to the observant reader that they feared repercussions from both sides - but of course especially the Tyrells.

But Cersei does outmaneuver the Tyrells. She manipulates Loras into leading the attack on Dragonstone and she gets Margaery arrested.

And even although I cannot see the Faith actually executing Margaery Tyrell (that would be suicide) the whole affair likely will destroy the Tyrell-Lannister alliance and put an end to the Tommen-Margaery marriage.

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Exactly. The Tyrells are basically the Lannisters 2.0

Just a stronger, more loving family.

They are nicer and their ambitions are, well, somewhat more motivated by an inferiority complex. The Tyrells still had to win the respect of their own bannermen during the reign of Jaehaerys I (remember Lord Manfryd Redwyne calling them 'dolts' at a Small Council meeting in front of the king). And while they do have accomplished this in the 3rd century and are very well-connected to most of the major houses in the Reach, Mace's ambition - sort of like Tywin's goes back to his days at Egg's court with young Prince Aerys - seems to be based on the marriage contracts his parents were involved with. Olenna seems to have gotten over the fact that she did not have to marry her gay prince (and may even have done everything she could to undermine those marriage plans once she realized her betrothed might never even consummate their marriage) we don't know at this point how Lord Luthor Tyrell felt about being spurned Princess Shaera.

If I had to guess Mace's desire definitely goes back to the humiliation his own parents had suffered in their youth, which might be things young Mace did hear from both his parents not just once or twice.

But then - we don't know. Mace is very ambitious in other fields as well. He also wanted to make all his sons great knights and pushed Willas too far too early in that department.

3 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

For me, I just thought that the whole point of the Lannister-Tyrell feud was to show how Tywin Lannister was literally holding the nation together by sheer force of will and that his children are worse than he is and will destroy his legacy and the nation.

Oh, one can make sense of that and this is certainly something that is also an aspect there. But my point is that insofar as the great narrative is concerned it really felt like a weird thing to have Westeros descend into another civil war and not build up some sort of united front against the Dany threat. At that point it felt like weirdo filler - but now we know why the Tyrells and Lannisters had to be a position where it would be very difficult/impossible for them to unite their forces. Because Aegon needs a chance to take the throne.

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