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Mel & Shireen


Coffeewiththegods

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3 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

This might be a controversial statement, but why do people assume Stannis wouldn't be part of Shireen's burning? I mean we were introduced to Stannis setting his family members on fire in ACOK. I actually believe he would do it when push comes to shove. 

I think he is too far away and too caught up in Winterfell, it would take him weeks at least to get back to the wall. If Shireen needs to burn for Jon to awaken then it will happen sooner than later in my opinion.

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1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

This might be a controversial statement, but why do people assume Stannis wouldn't be part of Shireen's burning? I mean we were introduced to Stannis setting his family members on fire in ACOK. I actually believe he would do it when push comes to shove. 

We were introduced to Stannis first through Cressen’s prologue, and then we see the burning of the idols of the 7.

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19 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire George also said he didn't like it when his original outline was leaked. Sure a couple of things did change, but that doesn't mean everything was thrown out in the current outline.

He didn't like it was released, because it was meant to be some memoribilia to be released after he finished the series, so that people could see "oh wow, it's very different from the books". And that makes perfect sense.

Such memoribilia are funny and interesting after the product is finished, when the author is satisfied with the finished product. It's a cheek-glowing bane to the author to even hear it be referenced by people speculating about the plot you're writing.

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

He didn't like it was released, because it was meant to be some memoribilia to be released after he finished the series, so that people could see "oh wow, it's very different from the books". And that makes perfect sense.

Such memoribilia are funny and interesting after the product is finished, when the author is satisfied with the finished product. It's a cheek-glowing bane to even hear it be referenced by people speculating about the plot you're writing.

Was struggling to keep my big mouth shut and not wander OT any further. :D

 

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26 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

I mean we were introduced to Stannis setting his family members on fire in ACOK.

He was? He was introduced as far as I can recall in Cressen's POV, and nobody was burned in that. Cressen poisoned himself. Then Davos I introduces us to Stannis and Mel burning the statues of the Faith of the Seven, from which he retrieves his burning sword. There are no burnings on Dragonstone while Davos and Stannis are there. People got put into prison, yes, but not burned. The first burnings are done while Stannis campaigns against KL. This was Selyse's and Mel's doing. Stannis only took their side of it afterwards, same way like Ned said Cat arrested Tyrion on his orders. The first man that Stannis burns alive himself is indeed Selyse's uncle. That happens in aSoS, and we learn through Davos what treason that man had done. He was scheming behind Stannis's back to wed Shyreen to Stannis' enemy and offering a surrender. Davos may not like the execution method, but he does not defend the man's crime whatsoever.

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23 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

I think he is too far away and too caught up in Winterfell, it would take him weeks at least to get back to the wall. If Shireen needs to burn for Jon to awaken then it will happen sooner than later in my opinion.

If his battle at Winterfell happens early on in the upcoming book and things go wrong he might be just in time back before Jon's resurrection and burn Shireen in a desperate attempt to win the war against Ramsay. I am not of opinion he will win back Winterfell. The fact that he wants to burn the Weirwood should tell us that he doesn't deserve to reclaim Winterfell. 

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I like how many different opinions there are on all of this, shows how complex it all is.

2 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

If his battle at Winterfell happens early on in the books and things go wrong he might be just in time back before Jon's resurrection and burn Shireen in a desperate attempt to win the war against Ramsay.


LSH is really messed up after being dead for 3 days, if it's left too long what will Jon be when he awakens? 

 

1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

The fact that he wants to burn the Weirwood should tell us that he doesn't deserve to reclaim Winterfell. 

He would be stupid doing that, the Northmen outnumber his. 

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1 minute ago, Elegant Woes said:

If his battle at Winterfell happens early on in the upcoming book and things go wrong he might be just in time back before Jon's resurrection and burn Shireen in a desperate attempt to win the war against Ramsay. I am not of opinion he will win back Winterfell. The fact that he wants to burn the Weirwood should tell us that he doesn't deserve to reclaim Winterfell. 

Stannis won’t burn his daughter and heir to win against Ramsay. If he does it, the stakes will have to be much, much higher. Also, he doesn’t want to burn the heart trees, Mel does. Mel is a zealot, Stannis isn’t even into Red Rahloo at all; he merely acknowledges Mel has power, and he uses it. 

And yes, the battle at the CV will happen very early on in TWoW, the Freys and Manderlys have already left Winterfell. 

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@Jon The Dragon Jon will probably be put in an ice cell. That could keep his body 'fresh' for weeks - if not months. His mind, though, will be in a different state, especially if he stays in Ghost for quite a while. Jon will be most likely be pissed, animalistic, darker and most importantly yearning for his siblings once he's back. 

@kissdbyfire Perhaps I am wrong in what will motivate Stannis to burn Shireen, but I still see him doing it. I don't see how a tertiary character like Stannis will accomplish something big as reclaiming Winterfell. I mean where is the emotional payoff in that. It would be so much more moving if an actual Stark does it. Jon (and Sansa) taking back Winterfell would be so much better. Not only because of the emotional payoff, but it would also be compelling. I am so here for a battle between Bastards. :D

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6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

Perhaps I am wrong in what will motivate Stannis to burn Shireen, but I still see him doing it. I don't see how a tertiary character like Stannis will accomplish something big as reclaiming Winterfell. I mean where is the emotional payoff in that. It would be so much more moving if an actual Stark does it. Jon (and Sansa) taking back Winterfell would be so much better. Not only because of the emotional payoff, but it would also be compelling. I am so here for a battle between Bastards

He may do it, but not to beat Ramsay, and you can take that to the bank. As to the rest, well, it all seems awfully similar to what happened in the abomination, so you may have to be content with what they did. I feel quite confident the actual story, Martin’s story, will play out quite differently. 

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I really hope Jon isn't actually dead. Just grievously wounded and warging into Ghost. But if he is dead, fuck him, hope he stays that way. We've already had two characters return from death, one multiple times and the other had already started to decay. A third would be a bit ridiculous and kinda ruin Martin's narrative where character death's are supposed to have an impact. 

Plus we've already seen the extent of what human sacrifice brings. Mirra Maz Durr killed Dany's son, just so Drogo could stay alive in an unresponsive, feeble, and pathetic state. Beric gave up what was left of his life to revive Catylen. And she rose to be a hateful creature who only want vengeance, even against the innocent and doesn't care how many lives it cost to get it. Can't imagine Mel sacrificing Shireen would have a much different outcome. Maybe Jon's soul being preserved in ghost would let him keep his strength, rationale, and personality when he returns, as opposed to Beric forgetting almost everything and everyone to do with his life before he died. Or Drogo being defenseless and Stoneheart being cruel. But the idea of a main character dying and then no being dead just doesn't sit well with me. Plus it seems so un-Martin. maybe he'll live on as Ghost and play somewhat of a role in taking down the Great Other if the human Jon Snow is destined to be dead.

on to Shireen though. probably doesn't live to the end of the next book. doubt Stannis would consent to this, but Mel/Selsye probably wouldn't object to her sacrifice. doesn't have to have anything to do with Jon either. She left the Shieldhall before his speech was done. Hopefully to set Ghost free, but I doubt she thinks much of Jon at this point, ignoring all her warnings. 

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6 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire Don't get me wrong I hate the abomination too, but it's silly to assume that they are wrong about something that hasn't come out yet. We can't automatically scream '95% is fanfiction.' The execution may be horribly off, but I am willing to believe that they hit the broad strokes. 

Do you really think it’s silly to assume they got most of it wrong? Oh well, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree again. :)

 

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21 minutes ago, Mooncalf said:

I really hope Jon isn't actually dead. Just grievously wounded and warging into Ghost.

I don't think he's dead dead. I think his body could possibly be dying, his mind has warged into Ghost. I think he's more comatose than dead. 

I'm fully prepared to see Mel doing something similar to what MMD did with Drogo, but with different motivations and different results.

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@kissdbyfire No I think it's silly to assume they are wrong about something that we ourselves know nothing about. There's a reason why GRRM said that the abomination isn't that far off from his own ending. 

@Alexis-something-Rose I agree. Jon will most likely be ressurected with the same magic that was used to bring back Drogo. The difference is that Jon's soul will be left in tact. 

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2 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

No, there aren’t. :)

And thank goodness for that because if Jonsa was a thing I would vomit. :ack:

 

1 hour ago, Elegant Woes said:

This might be a controversial statement, but why do people assume Stannis wouldn't be part of Shireen's burning? I mean we were introduced to Stannis setting his family members on fire in ACOK. He was, again, ready to do the same in ASOS to Edric Storm. This time, however, there won't be a Davos to talk him out of it. He's away to Skagos and things are looking too well for Stannis in that Theon chapter sample. If things come crashing down he might be desperate enough to burn Shireen. 

I'm not 100% positive he would be against but the reasons I think he may be are that setting other members on fire (ones you don't particularly care for or know) & setting your daughter on fire are 2 different things. Also, Shireen is his heir & very likely going to be the only heir he ever has. I don't think he loves Shireen too much to do it or that the horror of doing something like that to anyone, let alone your own daughter, would affect him greatly but I think he is a man of duty & understands he needs an heir if he is going to be King. I think a second thing that would potentially make him against it is if he wasn't present when it happened. Like if Mel burns Shireen without Stannis knowledge that will piss Stannis off in a "you betrayed your king & heir" sort of way more than a "you killed my daughter" sort of way. 

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13 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@Alexis-something-Rose I agree. Jon will most likely be ressurected with the same magic that was used to bring back Drogo. The difference is that Jon's soul will be left in tact. 

This is what I'm saying, though. Drogo was not dead. He was dying. That's when Dany asked MMD to use her blood magic to preserve his life. But he stays catatonic and Dany ends his life.

It was a trade Dany was doing. It's a trade Mel will be doing.

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