Mel & Shireen

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire No I think it's silly to assume they are wrong about something that we ourselves know nothing about. There's a reason why GRRM said that the abomination isn't that far off from his own ending. 

@Alexis-something-Rose I agree. Jon will most likely be ressurected with the same magic that was used to bring back Drogo. The difference is that Jon's soul will be left in tact. 

Sure, but what does "not that far off from my own ending" mean? He said the abomination knew the "broad strokes" that doesn't necessarily mean they used them, only that they knew them. I really wouldn't be surprised at all if the abomination got the majority of it wrong. 

[kissdbyfire]

35 minutes ago, Elegant Woes said:

@kissdbyfire No I think it's silly to assume they are wrong about something that we ourselves know nothing about. There's a reason why GRRM said that the abomination isn't that far off from his own ending. 

Again, disagree respectfully. Because we do actually know a lot. We do know everything Martin has given us through clues, hints, pieces of different puzzles, etc. And Martin is nothing if not an extremely deliberate writer, on top of being extremely talented. And I will leave it at that because this not only isn’t the right thread, it isn’t even the right forum, since there’s no talk of the abomination n the book side of the board. 

And just to keep it OT, I will repeat myself and state again that Stannis, who is maybe 30 days away (but likely more than that given the weather) from the Wall as of the end of ADwD, will not be able to burn his sole daughter and heir to defeat the bastard of Bolton, even if he wanted to. Which he wouldn’t, btw. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

And just to keep it OT, I will repeat myself and state again that Stannis, who is maybe 30 days away (but likely more than that given the weather) from the Wall as of the end of ADwD, will not be able to burn his sole daughter and heir to defeat the bastard of Bolton, even if he wanted to. Which he wouldn’t, btw. 

I agree. I could see him possibly making this decision if he thought it was going to save humanity from the Long Night or something of that nature but not only can he not return in time to do it even if he wanted to but also he wouldn't burn his daughter for this. 

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. I could see him possibly making this decision if he thought it was going to save humanity from the Long Night or something of that nature but not only can he not return in time to do it even if he wanted to but also he wouldn't burn his daughter for this. 

Yeah. As I’ve said before, I think it’s possible that Stannis reaches the conclusion that Shireen’s death is necessary, but the stakes are surely going to be much, much higher than that psycho moron Ramsay. In fact, I think Ramsay is as good as defeated, given the end of Dance and the Theon I chapter from TWoW. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Yeah. As I’ve said before, I think it’s possible that Stannis reaches the conclusion that Shireen’s death is necessary, but the stakes are surely going to be much, much higher than that psycho moron Ramsay. In fact, I think Ramsay is as good as defeated, given the end of Dance and the Theon I chapter from TWoW. 

I agree. I think the biggest mystery in that situation is who wrote the PL & why. I don't believe Ramsay defeated Stannis or that Stannis is dead. 

[kissdbyfire]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I agree. I think the biggest mystery in that situation is who wrote the PL & why. I don't believe Ramsay defeated Stannis or that Stannis is dead. 

I am firmly on the camp that believes Ramsay wrote the PL. 

And no, I don’t believe for a second Ramsay has defeated Stannis, nor that Stannis is dead. But I think Ramsay does believe both claims [he made] are true. 

[Coffeewiththegods]

3 hours ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Would Wun Wun try to protect Shireen? They seem to like eachother.

I had posted a theory on here before asking if maybe patchface would try to protect her 

[Coffeewiththegods]

17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I am firmly on the camp that believes Ramsay wrote the PL. 

And no, I don’t believe for a second Ramsay has defeated Stannis, nor that Stannis is dead. But I think Ramsay does believe both claims [he made] are true. 

I also believe Ramsay wrote it. Elio & Linda Have a video where they lay out the evidence pretty convincingly.

[kissdbyfire]

7 minutes ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

I also believe Ramsay wrote it. Elio & Linda Have a video where they lay out the evidence pretty convincingly.

Nice, I haven’t watched that one yet. Will defo look for it, cheers.

[sweetsunray]

28 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I'm not 100% positive he would be against but the reasons I think he may be are that setting other members on fire (ones you don't particularly care for or know) & setting your daughter on fire are 2 different things. Also, Shireen is his heir & very likely going to be the only heir he ever has. I don't think he loves Shireen too much to do it or that the horror of doing something like that to anyone, let alone your own daughter, would affect him greatly but I think he is a man of duty & understands he needs an heir if he is going to be King. I think a second thing that would potentially make him against it is if he wasn't present when it happened. Like if Mel burns Shireen without Stannis knowledge that will piss Stannis off in a "you betrayed your king & heir" sort of way more than a "you killed my daughter" sort of way. 

This. It actually fits with how Stannis allowed burnings to happen.

First it's only the Seven, statues. Stannis does not believe in either the 7 or R'hlorr. And he knows his sword is fake. But he goes along in Mel's theatricals, because she made him see stuff. His stance is machiavellan. He can wash his hands of Cressen's fate, because Cressen attempted to poison Mel, just for being Mel, and died by it himself in the failed attempt.

Him taking down the sept at Dragonstone was met with resistance by people who had sworn fealty first. So he puts them in prison cells as traitors. He leaves for Renly and eventually KL, sending Mel back to DS. Mel and Selyse take it on themselves to burn Stannis' traitors to help Stannis gain his victory (no help there). He returns defeated and learns what his wife and Mel did. Once Davos learns and attacks Mel over it, Stannis claims she did it on his orders. I don't believe Stannis ever gave such an order or agreed to this beforehand. But what was done was done. Those men were traitors anyway in his eyes, and ultimately they were to die - sword, noose, burned alive at the stake: the end result is the same. And Mel was showing him stuff in Dragonstone, while he was licking his wounds.

However, by taking responsibility over the decisions that Selyse and Mel made, Stannis inherently showed to others that he approves of not just the method of execution, but also the magical purpose. He never berated Selyse and Mel over this as far as we know. And so this empowers both women that their methods are something that Stannis will back. And it's here that lies the danger.

He then adds to this approval, by having Alester Florent burned for his treason and to use it for favourable winds for his fleet towards Eastwatch to save the NW from the wildling attack.

That Stannis still has moral views on who and when such burnings are allowed is made clear in Asha's POV. When the Queen's Men want people burned to make the weather favourable as they march for WF, he refuses this outright. He only allows it when some men are caught at cannibalism. To Stannis this is mostly an execution method that pleases his men who believe it has magical advantages. He himself seems much less inclined to believe this. Nor does he ultimately allow an innocent to be dealt in such a way. He may have been swayed by Mel once to do it with Edric Storm, but Davos did manage to pierce through this. Hell, even Mel has started to use it more for show. Hence the Rattleshirt-Mance switch. There's just no way the man in Theon's first chapter of tWoW will approve to having his daughter burned for magical aid.

However, Mel also feels the amount of magic connected to the Wall and believes she can do great things with it (that she might end up weakening the magical protection of the Wall is of course something she does not ever consider). Mel tends to make her biggest mistakes when she feels she must use magic and when she believes Stannis requires help. And she will believe that either Stannis would automatically approve (because he never berated her for any of the burnings she did, whether he actually approved or not) OR that she can sway him to believe it was necessary.

When Stannis learns of it though, he will not approve as well as see the madness of it, but it would likely also burden him. He never stopped her before, always went along with it. And in that way, he does carry a responsibility in the slippery slope that leads to the death of his own daughter and heir.

(And yes, that would be too subtle a plot for the abomination, since D&D misremember their own show-facts, such as calling statues of a sept the burning of people).

To the OP: yes, I think that Shyreen's burning will have an impact on Jon. I don't think he's dead dead and becomes a fire wight, but I think Jon will seem dead (because he's in Ghost) and his body will be healed. George made Jon and the Wall to be one and the same. He's been building up to this image since the chapter that Jon climbs the Wall with the wildlings. The Wall started to do his bidding in a way. He thinks and wishes for things to happen, and it happens. It is since this chapter that the word "reflection" or "reflect" appears in relation to the Wall, and only in Jon POVs. Yes, the Wall has been described to be shimmering, etc... but the word reflect itself only is used for the Wall in Jon POVs after Jeor's death. By the time Alys Karstark is wed, Jon's image is reflected in the ice of the Wall. Later he has the dream of standing atop the Wall all by himself, armored in black ice, fighting the foe. The Wall (a mirror) and Jon have become fully one. Hence to me, any magic used from the Wall to channel it into another goal will automatically bend itself and seek out Jon's body. For the same reason, I am convinced that the assassination attempt on Jon, and making him bleed, also directly pierces/harms the Wall enough for the Others at the north side of the Wall to use their resurrection magic onto the dead in the lichyard and the fallen ones south of the Wall.

When Wick cut Jon and his blood fell on the ice, Wick did not just dealt a blow to Jon but the Wall as well. And when Mel burns Shyreen to get her hands on the Wall's magic to save Stannis (who isn't there), the Wall's released magic will seek refuge into Jon's body, healing him, and likely make him into a physically powerful superhuman who won't die easy or who won't be wounded that easily.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

33 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I am firmly on the camp that believes Ramsay wrote the PL. 

And no, I don’t believe for a second Ramsay has defeated Stannis, nor that Stannis is dead. But I think Ramsay does believe both claims [he made] are true. 

In your opinion what is his motive? Just to antagonize? & who tricked Ramsay into believing Stan is dead?

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

I also believe Ramsay wrote it. Elio & Linda Have a video where they lay out the evidence pretty convincingly.

any links for that? I would love to watch it

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

To the OP: yes, I think that Shyreen's burning will have an impact on Jon. I don't think he's dead dead and becomes a fire wight, but I think Jon will seem dead (because he's in Ghost) and his body will be healed. George made Jon and the Wall to be one and the same. He's been building up to this image since the chapter that Jon climbs the Wall with the wildlings. The Wall started to do his bidding in a way. He thinks and wishes for things to happen, and it happens. It is since this chapter that the word "reflection" or "reflect" appears in relation to the Wall, and only in Jon POVs. Yes, the Wall has been described to be shimmering, etc... but the word reflect itself only is used for the Wall in Jon POVs after Jeor's death. By the time Alys Karstark is wed, Jon's image is reflected in the ice of the Wall. Later he has the dream of standing atop the Wall all by himself, armored in black ice, fighting the foe. The Wall (a mirror) and Jon have become fully one. Hence to me, any magic used from the Wall to channel it into another goal will automatically bend itself and seek out Jon's body. For the same reason, I am convinced that the assassination attempt on Jon, and making him bleed, also directly pierces/harms the Wall enough for the Others at the north side of the Wall to use their resurrection magic onto the dead in the lichyard and the fallen ones south of the Wall.

When Wick cut Jon and his blood fell on the ice, Wick did not just dealt a blow to Jon but the Wall as well. And when Mel burns Shyreen to get her hands on the Wall's magic to save Stannis (who isn't there), the Wall's released magic will seek refuge into Jon's body, healing him, and likely make him into a physically powerful superhuman who won't die easy or who won't be wounded that easily.

This is quite interesting. I'd never put Jon & the wall together like that. I wouldn't mind a superhuman Jon at all. Not like a "Superman" Jon but like a trumped up "Targ" Jon. Someone who doesn't get sick, (does he anyway?), maybe is immune to the cold - much like the fire didn't burn Daenerys. 

 

[sweetsunray]

Without discussing all the details, I'm in the Stannis-Theon wrote it camp for the PL. It would actually fuel the long distance responsibility that Stannis bears to the to him unforeseen consequence of the death of his daughter. Not only did he signal tacit approval of Mel and his wife burning people long ago on Dragonstone, he would be the man who sent the letter to Jon that ended up sparking an assassination attempt on Jon's life. 

[kissdbyfire]

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In your opinion what is his motive? Just to antagonize? & who tricked Ramsay into believing Stan is dead?

Above all else he wants his bride back, and he wants his Reek back, just as he says. The way he finds to try and get both back - remember, fArya is what makes him “lord of Winterfell”, and Theon was the witness he used to prove Jeyne is Arya. If either reach CB or some other place and spill the beans, the jig is up, and he knows it.  So he makes demands and tries to put Jon in a defensive position. He wants Shireen, Mel, Selyse, Val, Monster, etc, and he’s coming to get them and eat Jon’s heart if Jon doesn’t comply. Thing is, I think the PL is a hell of a lot more straightforward than people think. 

As to who tricked him into thinking Stannis is dead, well, Stannis himself. 

[kissdbyfire]

10 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Not only did he signal tacit approval of Mel and his wife burning people long ago

But now he says, pray harder, no more burnings. 

I think Stannis may become less of an agnostic once Bran starts talking to him through Theon.

ETA: and I don’t see Stannis being in a forgiving mood if either Mel or Selyse or both do it w/o his express and direct command. 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is quite interesting. I'd never put Jon & the wall together like that. I wouldn't mind a superhuman Jon at all. Not like a "Superman" Jon but like a trumped up "Targ" Jon. Someone who doesn't get sick, (does he anyway?), maybe is immune to the cold - much like the fire didn't burn Daenerys. 

 

It's subtle if you're just reading, but not so subtle anymore upon rereading and having Serwyn of the Mirror Shield in the back of your mind.

The image or comparison of the Wall to a serpent west of CB (from CB to Shadow Tower) and a sword east of CB (from eastwatch to CB) appear in the same chapter of Jon arriving at the Wall with the wildlings as they prepare to climb it, as well as the word "reflect". So, it ties to the image of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield who killed a dragon by having it stare in the mirror and therefore not seeing the lance/sword he held behid it.

I did a search for it in any of the Wall POVs (including Tyrion's), and the mirror related word "reflect" or "reflection" only starts to be used then, which is odd since it's not an uncommon word and we tend to think of ice as reflective anyway, so we would expect the word to be used in relation to the Wall far earlier than that.

That's also when we get Jon's thoughts on how even one man of the NW atop the Wall could hold off the wildlings from climbing it. He just forgets he's that one man of the NW present, just not on top of the Wall. Then he wishes for the Wall to shake off the wildlings, which happens. We even have Ygritte saying later on that she felt as if the Wall wanted to shake her off. In other words, it might be more than just "metaphorical writing", but the Wall did as Jon commanded it to do. He was Jeor's trainee for command, and after Jeor's death, the Wall starts to act as if it is already Jon's, way before anyone tells him "The Wall is yours" during the attack of the wildlings, long before he was elected LC of the Wall.

So, after this sudden insertion of the reflect words, we get the "the Wall is yours" mention, several times. Jon starts to think of it more and more, and he himself begins to identify with the Wall itself. And eventually we get the one time he sees his own reflection in the ice, and then the dream.

This imagery may serve several purposes simultaneously, but Jon == Wall is certainly one of them imo.

[kissdbyfire]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is quite interesting. I'd never put Jon & the wall together like that. I wouldn't mind a superhuman Jon at all. Not like a "Superman" Jon but like a trumped up "Targ" Jon. Someone who doesn't get sick, (does he anyway?), maybe is immune to the cold - much like the fire didn't burn Daenerys. 

Remember what Jon tells Sam in Dance? 

“We all shed our blood for the Watch.” 

 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

But now he says, pray harder, no more burnings. 

Indeed he says this. But Mel and Selyse aren't around to overhear it.

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I think Stannis may become less of an agnostic once Bran starts talking to him through Theon.

Been on my mind too.

4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

ETA: and I don’t see Stannis being in a forgiving mood if either Mel or Selyse or both do it w/o his express and direct command. 

Me neither. But the man is also able to see his own mistakes leading to consequences. So, even if Mel and Selyse are the culprits, I can also see him blame himself.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is quite interesting. I'd never put Jon & the wall together like that. I wouldn't mind a superhuman Jon at all. Not like a "Superman" Jon but like a trumped up "Targ" Jon. Someone who doesn't get sick, (does he anyway?), maybe is immune to the cold - much like the fire didn't burn Daenerys. 

He never mentions being sick. He's not immune to the cold and Dany is not immune to not being burned. There are several times when Jon says it's cold. He even has a conversation about it with Val and she laughs at him and tells him that this cold is nothing. The real cold is when the Others come and it becomes hard to breathe.