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Coffeewiththegods

Mel & Shireen

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Is it possible that upon hearing of Stannis’s “Death” in the pink letter, Mel Desperately burns shireen asking to bring back azor ahai and Jon rises instead? And this becomes the catalyst for Mel following jon...I do believe that Jon will spend some time in ghost, but maybe somehow the death of shireen brings him back to his body somehow. I have another theory(based on absolutely nothing lol)that Mel knows about Jon switching the babies and that is why she will jump straight to burning shireen.

Edited by Coffeewiththegods
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I think this is exactly how Mel will bring Jon back to life (by burning Shireen) I had never thought of it being an accident but this fits nicely. 

And if Stannis is not dead & returns to find Melisandre has burned his daughter I imagine he will not be happy. Jon, who will then owe his life to Mel, may be inclined to defend her. 

So much potential drama here. 

You think Selyse will allow it or will she have to be restrained or locked up or something? 

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13 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Would burning Shireen be classed as waking a dragon from stone? Val doesn't like Shireen too much, she could have a part to play in it.

I think so. Especially if Jon gets some knowledge as to his heritage while he is out - he will be waking up a dragon. 

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16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think this is exactly how Mel will bring Jon back to life (by burning Shireen) I had never thought of it being an accident but this fits nicely. 

And if Stannis is not dead & returns to find Melisandre has burned his daughter I imagine he will not be happy. Jon, who will then owe his life to Mel, may be inclined to defend her. 

So much potential drama here. 

You think Selyse will allow it or will she have to be restrained or locked up or something? 

I could definitely see selyse going along with it if she thinks Stannis is dead and this will bring him back. 

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1 minute ago, Coffeewiththegods said:

I could definitely see selyse going along with it if she thinks Stannis is dead and this will bring him back. 

Me too. Stannis will want both of their heads. I don't think he is particularly sentimental about his daughter but it will be seen as treason & he will feel it's his duty to execute them. (I think)

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1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Me too. Stannis will want both of their heads. I don't think he is particularly sentimental about his daughter but it will be seen as treason & he will feel it's his duty to execute them. (I think)

Stannis wants his daughter to be crowned upon his death, and 20 thousand sellswords to fight for her if he dies. I'd say that's pretty sentimental

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16 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

Stannis wants his daughter to be crowned upon his death, and 20 thousand sellswords to fight for her if he dies. I'd say that's pretty sentimental

Yeah, I guess I just mean he doesn't seem very emotionally attached to her or anyone for that matter. He is just a hard man. 

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7 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think so. Especially if Jon gets some knowledge as to his heritage while he is out - he will be waking up a dragon. 

That side of him was starting to come through a bit with all the talk of dragons around him at the Wall. It's like the talk seems to incite that side of him that's buried to start emerging. There was that instance after a conversation with Val about what Mel sees in her fires when he thinks that he could almost see them (dragons), coiling in the night their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. It's pretty reminiscent of Maester Aemon's own dream that he mentions to Sam in AFfC. 

That said, I don't know that whatever happens with Jon will be as straight forward as that. Shireen has a dream all the way in ACoK about dragons devouring her;

"I had a bad dream," Shireen told him. "About the dragons. They were coming to eat me." (Prologue, ACoK, p. 4)

I think there was foreshadowing all the way back in Dany VIII, AGoT 64, when MMD is in the tent performing that ritual.

"No," Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wait of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. (Dany VIII, AGoT 64)

It's not a wolf that Dany sees. It's a great wolf. And if the body is being burned, then it corresponds with what looks like a man wreathed in flames.

And this is very reminiscent of Mel's vision of Jon in the flames;

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. (Melisandre I, ADwD 31)

I've been fairly certain for a while that Jon will have his magical, unburned moment in Winds. What more is that whatever Mel will do, her fire magic is powered by the magic of the Wall. That's the magic of the children and the old gods. 

Jon is important to Mel for some reason and if she burns Shireen, Selyse will not stop her. But I am more inclined to believe that the Shireen burning will be Stannis's decision because of his talk with Davos of sacrifice. Shireen is his only child. She is his heir, so him sacrificing her would be more meaningful.

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Tell him, my lady." (Davos VI, ASoS 63)

And then Mel has this to add about sacrifice;

Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."
"She talks of cows," Davos told the king. "I am speaking of a boy, your daughter's friend, your brother's son."
"A king's son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins." Melisandre's ruby glowed a red star at her throw. "Do you think you've saved this boy, Onion Knight? When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest, wherever he is hidden. Your own sons as well. Darkness and cold will cover the earth. You meddle in matters you do not understand." (Davos VI, ASoS 63)

I think this is what we are looking at with poor Shireen. This is going to sound terrible, but she is the only "cow" Stannis owns, so her sacrifice will be even more meaningful than if Stannis had given Edric Storm over to the flames. Edric was of his blood, but not his son. 

BTW, there are other people who claim king's blood who are presently at the Wall. Gerrick Kingsblood who says he is a descendant of Raymund Redbeard has 3 daughters who are now promised to queen's men and a son who was taken as a hostage by Jon.

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1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

That side of him was starting to come through a bit with all the talk of dragons around him at the Wall. It's like the talk seems to incite that side of him that's buried to start emerging. There was that instance after a conversation with Val about what Mel sees in her fires when he thinks that he could almost see them (dragons), coiling in the night their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. It's pretty reminiscent of Maester Aemon's own dream that he mentions to Sam in AFfC. 

That said, I don't know that whatever happens with Jon will be as straight forward as that. Shireen has a dream all the way in ACoK about dragons devouring her;

"I had a bad dream," Shireen told him. "About the dragons. They were coming to eat me." (Prologue, ACoK, p. 4)

I think there was foreshadowing all the way back in Dany VIII, AGoT 64, when MMD is in the tent performing that ritual.

"No," Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn't, but when she opened her mouth, a long wait of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn't they see? Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames. (Dany VIII, AGoT 64)

It's not a wolf that Dany sees. It's a great wolf. And if the body is being burned, then it corresponds with what looks like a man wreathed in flames.

And this is very reminiscent of Mel's vision of Jon in the flames;

The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. (Melisandre I, ADwD 31)

I've been fairly certain for a while that Jon will have his magical, unburned moment in Winds. What more is that whatever Mel will do, her fire magic is powered by the magic of the Wall. That's the magic of the children and the old gods. 

Jon is important to Mel for some reason and if she burns Shireen, Selyse will not stop her. But I am more inclined to believe that the Shireen burning will be Stannis's decision because of his talk with Davos of sacrifice. Shireen is his only child. She is his heir, so him sacrificing her would be more meaningful.

Stannis ground his teeth again. "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty . . . If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark . . . Sacrifice . . . is never easy, Davos. Tell him, my lady." (Davos VI, ASoS 63)

And then Mel has this to add about sacrifice;

Melisandre said, "Azor Ahai tempered Lightbringer with the heart's blood of his own beloved wife. If a man with a thousand cows gives one to god, that is nothing. But a man who offers the only cow he owns . . ."
"She talks of cows," Davos told the king. "I am speaking of a boy, your daughter's friend, your brother's son."
"A king's son, with the power of kingsblood in his veins." Melisandre's ruby glowed a red star at her throw. "Do you think you've saved this boy, Onion Knight? When the long night falls, Edric Storm shall die with the rest, wherever he is hidden. Your own sons as well. Darkness and cold will cover the earth. You meddle in matters you do not understand." (Davos VI, ASoS 63)

I think this is what we are looking at with poor Shireen. This is going to sound terrible, but she is the only "cow" Stannis owns, so her sacrifice will be even more meaningful than if Stannis had given Edric Storm over to the flames. Edric was of his blood, but not his son. 

BTW, there are other people who claim king's blood who are presently at the Wall. Gerrick Kingsblood who says he is a descendant of Raymund Redbeard has 3 daughters who are now promised to queen's men and a son who was taken as a hostage by Jon.

Nice. Yeah I think poor Shireen's fate is settled whether or not Stannis takes part. 

I always read the parts about Stannis wanting to sacrifice Edric as an irony to come because he won't agree when it's his own child. Maybe he will though. If he believes it's his duty. Gosh that's horrible. 

There was discussion a while back in one of the threads about what King's blood truly is. For instance, is it enough to call yourself a King? Does it only matter that Mel (or the person doing the magic) believes you are King? Because Stannis has never truly been the King of the realm. He is the rightful King but he has never sat the IT, had the realm heed his command, etc. 

Maybe it only matters that he is the rightful King but then wouldn't the Targ's still be the rightful King's? Or was Robert rightful because he took the throne by conquest? What about all the succession questions throughout Targ history. Idk it just a deep rabbit hole to go down. 

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7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

There was discussion a while back in one of the threads about what King's blood truly is. For instance, is it enough to call yourself a King? Does it only matter that Mel (or the person doing the magic) believes you are King? Because Stannis has never truly been the King of the realm. He is the rightful King but he has never sat the IT, had the realm heed his command, etc. 

Maybe it only matters that he is the rightful King but then wouldn't the Targ's still be the rightful King's? Or was Robert rightful because he took the throne by conquest? What about all the succession questions throughout Targ history. Idk it just a deep rabbit hole to go down.

The Baratheons and their bastards have Targaryen / Valyrian blood in them. Lot's of Dragonseed about.

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51 minutes ago, Jon The Dragon said:

The Baratheons and their bastards have Targaryen / Valyrian blood in them. Lot's of Dragonseed about.

Yeah for sure. So you think that's the prerequisite for having King's Blood? Targ/Valyrian blood? 

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8 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. So you think that's the prerequisite for having King's Blood? Targ/Valyrian blood?

I think there will be more kings blood than that, Garth Greenhand's descendants might have kings blood too. Maybe he had some Valyrian blood. In this situation though there is definitely kings blood in the Baratheons.

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah for sure. So you think that's the prerequisite for having King's Blood? Targ/Valyrian blood? 

If she was considering to burn Mance's son, apparently it's enough that someone is named a king, even though their blood is that of a "mudblood". I don't think the genetics is important here. It could be anyone's blood, but there is power in the belief of many in one man or woman to lead them as a nation. The sacrifice of that blood or his or her descendants has an impact on the people for whom the burning is performed. We know Mel uses "effects" even though they're silly powder color tricks. She wants people to believe or fuel their belief. And maybe Mel herself believes it. She's very tropey in her beliefs: Azor Ahai, the hero, must be a king for example.

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1 hour ago, Jon The Dragon said:

think there will be more kings blood than that, Garth Greenhand's descendants might have kings blood too. Maybe he had some Valyrian blood. In this situation though there is definitely kings blood in the Baratheons.

Garth Greenhand lived in the Dawn Age, n Westeros. There were no Valyrians or Valyria back then. 

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4 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Garth Greenhand lived in the Dawn Age, n Westeros. There were no Valyrians or Valyria back then. 

Which reminds me of Axel Florent boasting to Jon how the Florents are descendants of the Gardeners (plenty houses are), but Florents are supposed to be one of the houses formed by one of the trueborn children of Florys the Fox (daughter of Garth). She had many children, trueborn (to 3 husbands who were kept ignorant of each other) and bastardborn (Lann the Clever may descend from a bastard of Florys). Anyhow, house Florent married often into the royal line of the Gardeners.

Anyway, Axel should watch out of referring to his royal blood within earshot of Mel. ;)

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11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Garth Greenhand lived in the Dawn Age, n Westeros. There were no Valyrians or Valyria back then. 

That we know of. It might be a possibility that dragons came to Westeros before the first men, and made the foundation of Battle Isle and the Seastone chair. They might be the same people as the Valyrians but before Valyria got settled so they wouldn't technically be Valyrians. Would be good to find out their origins.

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