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norwaywolf123

Will some POV Characters stop being POV?

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Hitherto, pov characters have been continued since they started untill they got a final ending (death). Looking foreward will GRRM stop writing pov chapters of characters that are still alive?

 

Daenerys in one such charcter i think. She will more and more, more than she have already, begin to change the political landscape of Planetos. Perhaps she will become so omipresent that her chapters will be dropped?

 

Also Jon because he has been killed and if he is ressurected he will become another person, namely unJon. Beric tells us that every time he dies, and is ressurected he loses a part of himself. This would be similar to how Catelyn have been dropped as a pov character, now as she has become Lady Stoneheart.

Edited by norwaywolf123

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I actually would find that super interesting. Especially for Jon. That he could be a non pov for a bit. We would first meet him again through someone else's eyes and than he would eventually come back as a pov. 

But for the others I can't really see it happening. I think if we lose a pov completely it will be through death. And that is actually exactly what happened to Cat. Jon on the other hand won't really die I believe.

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5 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Hitherto, pov characters have been continued since they started untill they got a final ending (death). Looking foreward will GRRM stop writing pov chapters of characters that are still alive?

 

Daenerys in one such charcter i think. She will more and more, more than she have already, begin to change the political landscape of Planetos. Perhaps she will become so omipresent that her chapters will be dropped?

 

Also Jon because he has been killed and if he is ressurected he will become another person, namely unJon. Beric tells us that every time he dies, and is ressurected he loses a part of himself. This would be similar to how Catelyn have been dropped as a pov character, now as she has become Lady Stoneheart.

I would not put that past George Martin.  Those two have been the main characters from the beginning. He might remove their povs in order to hide their thoughts from us.  In exchange, he could give povs to Marwyn and Varys.

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On 12/6/2019 at 6:38 PM, Nagini's Neville said:

I actually would find that super interesting. Especially for Jon. That he could be a non pov for a bit. We would first meet him again through someone else's eyes and than he would eventually come back as a pov. 

But for the others I can't really see it happening. I think if we lose a pov completely it will be through death. And that is actually exactly what happened to Cat. Jon on the other hand won't really die I believe.

Maybe Melisandre will become our eyes on the wall, if Jon loses his status as a pov character?

On 12/6/2019 at 7:57 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I would not put that past George Martin.  Those two have been the main characters from the beginning. He might remove their povs in order to hide their thoughts from us.  In exchange, he could give povs to Marwyn and Varys.

It is doubtfull that either Marwyn or Varys will be given pov's. They are just too mysterious.

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On 12/6/2019 at 8:25 AM, norwaywolf123 said:

Hitherto, pov characters have been continued since they started untill they got a final ending (death). Looking foreward will GRRM stop writing pov chapters of characters that are still alive?

Yes, this may happen.

Additionally, characters who superficially appear to be alive may have their POVs dropped because they have been replaced by an undead monster.  This has already happened to Catelyn, as you note.  I suspect has happened, or will happen, to others as well.

Additionally, characters who superficially appear to be alive may have their POVs dropped because they have been killed replaced by a faceless man.  I suspect this has already happened to Sam.

Also, characters who are genuinely still alive, but who the reader thinks are dead, may have their POVs dropped (for a while) to camoflage the fact that they are in fact alive.  GRRM already did this (for a little while) with Bran.

Nor would I rule out GRRM ceasing to use certain minor POVs simply because he does not need them any more.

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If Jon is going to lose his POV, or at least for a while, then it's in ADOS not TWOW. He will keep his POV even when he's 'unJon' so to speak. We should even expect him to have one or two, perhaps even three, chapters while he's in Ghost. 

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I think the author will continue to have POVs not interacting with Dany in real time in their POV. Probably to block out some things the author wants to obscure about Dany, until we do have their thoughts in real time for a reveal/twist of some sort. 

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4 or 5 million years ago we had a long discussion about Martin reducing POVs in TWOW.   There was some statement in some foreign mag wherein he seemed to indicate he would go with 13 POVs hence forth.   We determined 13 POVs is enough to tell the tale and that even reduced by nearly half, there are adequate eyes where story needs to be told and we know characters have to get moving in other directions.  We sorta need Dany's thoughts to keep us in her mind--there is no one else yonder to say what happens until she returns to to Mereen.   Jon however, dead, asleep or alive, is not the only POV at the Wall.   Personally I would love to peek inside Mel's head a whole lot more.   I'd like to see what she sees and what she thinks and what lies she can dream up to explain what she doesn't understand.  Bran could also find himself right there at the Wall fairly early on in TWOW so I can watch Mel's thoughts as she burns to death.  I would further love to see Cersei sent to the Wall (yah, I know it's a guy thing, but humor me) if for no other reason than to hear her thoughts as Ghost and Summer eat her.  Yah, I've thought about this.  Pull up a chair to the table map at Dragonstone and take a look at where the moving parts are...Arya is alone in Bravos.   She stays.  Jon and Mel are at the Wall with Bran a bit north of the Wall in BR's cave.  We don't need all 3.  I'm going with Mel and Bran here.  Though I expect Bran to have very few chapters.   Arianne is headed to Storms End where Jon Connington is going to die of greyscale anyway.  We go with Arianne and won't that be fun!  Aeron is with Euron and Euron seems to be looming large in TWOW.  He stays.  Theon and Asha are in the same place.  I say Asha goes back to the Iron Islands.  Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan are all in Mereen.  I'm thinking Vic may already be dead anyway and Selmy is the next most disposable so it's all team Tyrion in Mereen.  Sam's in Old Town.   We need to be in Sam's head no matter where he goes.   Jamie and Brienne are together--toughest choice to make but I'm going with Jaime as Brienne may be much like Vic and mostly dead anyway.  Areo Hotah is our door to Dawn so he will be around for a bit yet, but won't survive the book.  Cersei is too much fun to read.  She stays.   Davos is the only POV in his place so until he gets back to the mainland he stays.  No I won't bore you with anymore of my predictions and they aren't really even mine as most of this thinking stems from that old conversation.  See who's where and whittle it down.  The story can be told with far fewer POVs.   

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1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

4 or 5 million years ago we had a long discussion about Martin reducing POVs in TWOW.   There was some statement in some foreign mag wherein he seemed to indicate he would go with 13 POVs hence forth.   We determined 13 POVs is enough to tell the tale and that even reduced by nearly half, there are adequate eyes where story needs to be told and we know characters have to get moving in other directions.  We sorta need Dany's thoughts to keep us in her mind--there is no one else yonder to say what happens until she returns to to Mereen.   Jon however, dead, asleep or alive, is not the only POV at the Wall.   Personally I would love to peek inside Mel's head a whole lot more.   I'd like to see what she sees and what she thinks and what lies she can dream up to explain what she doesn't understand.  Bran could also find himself right there at the Wall fairly early on in TWOW so I can watch Mel's thoughts as she burns to death.  I would further love to see Cersei sent to the Wall (yah, I know it's a guy thing, but humor me) if for no other reason than to hear her thoughts as Ghost and Summer eat her.  Yah, I've thought about this.  Pull up a chair to the table map at Dragonstone and take a look at where the moving parts are...Arya is alone in Bravos.   She stays.  Jon and Mel are at the Wall with Bran a bit north of the Wall in BR's cave.  We don't need all 3.  I'm going with Mel and Bran here.  Though I expect Bran to have very few chapters.   Arianne is headed to Storms End where Jon Connington is going to die of greyscale anyway.  We go with Arianne and won't that be fun!  Aeron is with Euron and Euron seems to be looming large in TWOW.  He stays.  Theon and Asha are in the same place.  I say Asha goes back to the Iron Islands.  Tyrion, Victarion and Barristan are all in Mereen.  I'm thinking Vic may already be dead anyway and Selmy is the next most disposable so it's all team Tyrion in Mereen.  Sam's in Old Town.   We need to be in Sam's head no matter where he goes.   Jamie and Brienne are together--toughest choice to make but I'm going with Jaime as Brienne may be much like Vic and mostly dead anyway.  Areo Hotah is our door to Dawn so he will be around for a bit yet, but won't survive the book.  Cersei is too much fun to read.  She stays.   Davos is the only POV in his place so until he gets back to the mainland he stays.  No I won't bore you with anymore of my predictions and they aren't really even mine as most of this thinking stems from that old conversation.  See who's where and whittle it down.  The story can be told with far fewer POVs.   

Just to point  that we already have theon, barristan, victarion, arianne, sansa, arya, asha, aeron and tyrion confirmed. 

Unless you mean that there will only be 13 pov's by the end of twow I don t see this book only having 13 povs...

And by the end of the book characters like mel and theon will have probably ended their journey. Mel because I think stannis story will end in this book and she is too tied to him. Theon because the only thing missing in his story is dying with a bang.

In regards to bran I think he will become the 3er. Which means bran will kind of die and therefore lose his pov status. I think it will be much more interesting to know about bran through dreams of other characters and later when someone meets meera than we seeing bran beacome some all knowning being.

Barristan is an interesting character to give dany information about westeros and is someone danny can send on a mission. I think  he will be important to give us information about danny's conquest of westeros. Tyrion on the other hand seems much more useless. I have no idea what is the point of keeping him as a pov if he going to stay near danny for the foreseeable future.

I don t see Jaime and brienne staying together because brienne is proving her worth to LSH and Jaime is going to be punished. So either he dies or goes some other place. This leaves brienne as the pov of the riverlands unfortunatelly...

In the north I think we still have too many pov's with jon, asha and davos. And asha and davos even have several skills that overlap. As I think asha is more useful than davos I think he might die or be sent away from the north

Cersei will have to die. I mean the story has to move along… she did her bit and now her time has come.

With arianne near Aegon jon con will become redundant after a while.

Then we have the stark sisters.

Sam is one of those characters than if you want to reduce pov's should be killed. He is literally a story device instead of a character. We need eyes in the NW? use sam. We need x character to learn something? use sam. We need eyes in the citadel? use sam. We need x character to learn something from the citadel? use sam. I imagine the horror that would be to read aeron describing the terrible death euron is giving the fat NW maester. 

We also need the guy from dorne...

How many pov characters do I have? I think around 13! wow. I am amazed.

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I can easily see 5 POVs (Hotah, Barristan, Asha, Mel, Victarion) dying in TWoW. Or in the case of Mel, she might continue her existence in a different form but still lose her POV status.

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11 hours ago, Mithras said:

I can easily see 5 POVs (Hotah, Barristan, Asha, Mel, Victarion) dying in TWoW. Or in the case of Mel, she might continue her existence in a different form but still lose her POV status.

Yah it is these potentially changing forms that influences my thinking Jon, Bran, Brienne maybe Jamie and Mel POVs may be eliminated.   Death is absolutely possible for many characters and I note you did not list Jamie or Brienne among your dead.  There are so many ways Martin could take this story and the vehicles he uses to tell it.   

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Almost certainly Bran. Given that he will likely become the next 3 eyed crow (or the 3 eyed crow will absorb and posses him, who knows), this mean he will have the possibility to see all past and present (maybe even some future). So yeah I think his POV will be cut when he leaves the cave and we will only see him again when he reaches the Wall, and from then on we will only see Bran through other people's POV.

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19 hours ago, divica said:

Just to point  that we already have theon, barristan, victarion, arianne, sansa, arya, asha, aeron and tyrion confirmed. 

I would not count Asha as confirmed.  GRRM is not bound by what fans imagine they learn by espionage.  I believe we have 8 solid confirmations.  So to stay at 13 you have to pick only 5 of the remaining POVs.   Which I think is doable, but most find it rather hard.

19 hours ago, divica said:

Unless you mean that there will only be 13 pov's by the end of twow I don t see this book only having 13 povs...

GRRM told the Nouvel Observateur that there would be 13 ("13, I think") --  which he then qualified by saying it would be 13 at first, but fewer at the end.  I read that as saying that there would be a total of 13, but that some would be killed off.  I see that as the most natural reading.  You can read it in other ways though, if you don't want to accept 13 as  a total.

I think 13 is perfectly possible.  But it is difficult in the sense that it goes against the assumptions and expectations of most readers.  I would do it by guessing that GRRM will include Cersei and Dany as POVs, and also 3 of the following 7:  Asha, Davos, Mel, Jon Snow, Bran, Hotah, Jon Con (I have no strong opinions as to which 3, but it seems to me that none are essential).  I would guess that Sam, Jaime, and Brienne will not appear.

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9 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I would not count Asha as confirmed.  GRRM is not bound by what fans imagine they learn by espionage. 

The fact remains that she is almost certain... And we will have to see some of theon's trial through her pov so that it is believable he will die... 

9 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

think 13 is perfectly possible.  But it is difficult in the sense that it goes against the assumptions and expectations of most readers.  I would do it by guessing that GRRM will include Cersei and Dany as POVs, and also 3 of the following 7:  Asha, Davos, Mel, Jon Snow, Bran, Hotah, Jon Con (I have no strong opinions as to which 3, but it seems to me that none are essential).  I would guess that Sam, Jaime, and Brienne will not appear.

I think hotah is a must because he is the pov about what is happening in dorne. We definetly need to know doran's plan and what is going on with the Darkstar. 

Mel didn t become a pov character for 1 chapter.. 

And 1 pov just isn t enough for all the rest... 

And if the objective is to have few POVs I Don t think Danny will have any pov chapters. Her adventures with the dothriaki are the less interesting thing I can imagine and there are enough POVs in meereen. We Don t really need her... 

I can see him finishing the book with 13 POVs, but starting? Hell no. 

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11 hours ago, divica said:

The fact remains that she is almost certain... And we will have to see some of theon's trial through her pov so that it is believable he will die... 

Theon is not dead yet.  I'm not sure what exactly we will need to see, in his location, before other POVs find out.  But whatever it is, Theon can see it.  But again, I'm not ruling out Asha.  I just don't know enough to know she is essential, and I think neither do you.

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I think hotah is a must because he is the pov about what is happening in dorne. We definetly need to know doran's plan and what is going on with the Darkstar. 

Are not Arya and Tyrion and Dany going to be returning to Westeros at any point?  If we need a POV in Dorne, why cannot one of these 3 provide one?  And if not them maybe Barristan (if he does not die) can be sent on a Dorne mission.

But why do we need more Dorne POV?  The purpose of Hotah is to give us a few vague clues as to what Doran is planning (and perhaps some other things) without actually telling us what Doran is planning.  Maybe GRRM thinks he has now given us enough clues.  Maybe we will not get more clues until Doran springs his suprises upon the world.  We will find out when Cersei and Dany, and maybe certain other people interested in Westerosi politics find out. 

When the shit hits the fan, and Dany and Cersei find out about the surprises Doran has sprung upon the world, Hotah's chapters will have already done their job, by showing that GRRM has been building up to these things and not just pulling them out of his backside at the last minute.

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Mel didn t become a pov character for 1 chapter.. 

So far, that is exactly what she has done.  GRRM has some hidden clue he wanted to give us, and used Mel's POV to give it to us.  Does he need her for more stuff?  I don't know.  But his original plan was not to use her at all.  He may be done already with her for all I know.

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And 1 pov just isn t enough for all the rest... 

I'm unconvinced.  If the threads of the story are really going to start coming together, then GRRM can have fewer POVs and still have lots of characters.  Believe it or not, some authors have managed to write entire complex multi-character novels from a single POV.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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