If Ned+Ashara= Jon, was Jon unwanted in Dorne?

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

A  13 yr old being taller than a 15 yr old is completely different than a 9 mo baby being passed off as a 3 mo old. 

First of all, the text is not that specific. Secondly Catelyn has two conflicting ideas about when Jon was conceived. Her first suspicion was that Ashara was his mother. When do you propose Catelyn thought Ned would come across Ashara other than the tourney? Her second suspicion was that he was conceived on campaign. Was Ned on campaign as soon as he left the Eyrie, or are you assuming she meant after they were married?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

55 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Why are you unnecessarily sarcastic? We were discussing size. You asserted that anybody that spent a lot of time with infants would recognize a three month old versus a nine month old and I was disputing that. Joffrey was noted to be taller than either Jon or Robb even though he was two years younger.

Well, he's a bastard, so you know, bastards grow up faster. 

I'll see myself out.

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

In Gaelic, several words beginning with "slio" or "slo#1"  "slo#2" mean genealogy / to trace your genealogy / to get a surname / offspring / and to remove a stain

[kissdbyfire]

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

First of all, the text is not that specific. Secondly Catelyn has two conflicting ideas about when Jon was conceived. Her first suspicion was that Ashara was his mother.

Nope. Cat thinks about Ned fathering Jon “on some girl chance met on campaign” first, and in the next paragraph she thinks about the rumours she’d heard about Ashara Dayne. That’s in AGoT Catelyn II. 

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

When do you propose Catelyn thought Ned would come across Ashara other than the tourney? 

Well, as Martin said, Ashara wasn’t nailed to the floor in Starfall. But that’s irrelevant, b/c we know Cat thinks about Ashara in connection to the rumours she’d heard, which said Ned returned Dawn to Ashara in Starfall.

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Her second suspicion was that he was conceived on campaign.

That’s what she thinks about first, as I said above. And actually, it’s quite interesting that within two paragraphs, Cat thinks how Jon was conceived on a random girl while Ned was on campaign, and shortly afterwards she thinks about the Ashara gossip. 

30 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Was Ned on campaign as soon as he left the Eyrie, or are you assuming she meant after they were married?

Both Cat and Ned think about it was dishonourable of Ned to father a child after he was married to Cat, so, there you go. 

[Melifeather]

16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Nope. Cat thinks about Ned fathering Jon “on some girl chance met on campaign” first, and in the next paragraph she thinks about the rumours she’d heard about Ashara Dayne. That’s in AGoT Catelyn II. 

Well, as Martin said, Ashara wasn’t nailed to the floor in Starfall. But that’s irrelevant, b/c we know Cat thinks about Ashara in connection to the rumours she’d heard, which said Ned returned Dawn to Ashara in Starfall.

That’s what she thinks about first, as I said above. And actually, it’s quite interesting that within two paragraphs, Cat thinks how Jon was conceived on a random girl while Ned was on campaign, and shortly afterwards she thinks about the Ashara gossip. 

Both Cat and Ned think about it was dishonourable of Ned to father a child after he was married to Cat, so, there you go. 

Fathering Jon on Ashara after the Rebellion would make Jon too young. Catelyn really has no idea how he came to be and is trying to make sense of it. The only one of the two choices that she confronted Ned about was Ashara, so it must have been the most likely in her mind.

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Fathering Jon on Ashara after the Rebellion would make Jon too young. Catelyn really has no idea how he came to be and is trying to make sense of it. The only one of the two choices that she confronted Ned about was Ashara, so it must have been the most likely in her mind.

On the contrary. The fact that Cat thinks, as if thinking of a fact, that Ned fathered Jon on some random girl during the war, and immediately after that thinks about the whispers she’d heard about Ashara suggests that she doesn’t really think Ashara is the mother. Because Cat is thinking all of this ~ 14 years after it happened. So, all this drama happened when she arrived w/ Robb, she learns Ned has a bastard son who looks roughly the same age as Robb, and a couple of weeks after hearing the rumours about AD, Dawn, and Ashara, she asks Ned about it. Ned tells her, “don’t ever ask me about Jon” - Jon, not Ashara - and that's it. And then, some 14 yrs later, when thinking about Jon, her thoughts are, in this order:

1 - the woman Ned would not name, the woman who’d borne him a bastard son.

2 - that Ned had a man’s needs and fathered a bastard son on a girl chance met on campaign.

3 - of the rumours she’d heard about Arthur Dayne and Dawn, and how Ned returned the sword to the beautiful Ashara Dayne in Starfall. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

For me, N+A=J boggles the mind because there is no need for secrecy. And if Ned had a baby with Ashara? Who cares? If there was a romance, and I mean big IF here, it started before the rebellion. Whatever promises Ned may have made her, he had to break because his life and duties suddenly changed with his father and brother's deaths. He had to step into a different role and to preserve Winterfell and his House, he had to go to war against the king. 

But then, he goes to Starfall, takes the baby away from its mother, who then turns around and kills herself, doesn't give this woman he allegedly loved a second thought in his POV, refuses to speak of her to their alleged son, imposes him on his wife, when he sees that she doesn't want him there. And when he has to go to King's Landing, Neddy can't take Jon with him to King's Landing because he's a bastard and will be treated badly. And when Catelyn doesn't want him at Winterfell, he calls her cruel, laments that Jon is too young for the Night's Watch, that he's just a boy. So instead of having a light bulb moment where he's like, oh, let me send a letter to Starfall and see if they will take him in and I will tell him that he has another option, that his mother comes from a storied House, with an super duper sword, and his uncle was a Kingsguard, instead, Ned decides that he will pack off Jon to the Night's Watch after all, without even telling him that the order is nothing like that romantic notion he has in his mind.

And when he thinks of the children after he's been imprisoned, Jon doesn't even make the cut.

That Ned is an asshole of the highest order. 

36 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Fathering Jon on Ashara after the Rebellion would make Jon too young. Catelyn really has no idea how he came to be and is trying to make sense of it. The only one of the two choices that she confronted Ned about was Ashara, so it must have been the most likely in her mind.

I will persist in saying that it's because Catelyn saw something that made her think he was Ashara's. The single one description we get about Ashara in the passage is her eye color. The eye color is a trait that the Daynes happen to share with the Targaryens.

That whole passage with Catelyn's thoughts is a really interesting read, because it doesn't sound like Jon was all that Stark-ish looking when he was a baby. Catelyn says that "Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she had given him." 

[Frey family reunion]

13 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

On the contrary. The fact that Cat thinks, as if thinking of a fact, that Ned fathered Jon on some random girl during the war, and immediately after that thinks about the whispers she’d heard about Ashara suggests that she doesn’t really think Ashara is the mother.

No Cat has no clue as to whether Ashara is or is not Jon’s mother:

Quote

Her own children had more Tully about them than Stark. Arya was the only one to show much of Ned in her features. And Jon Snow, but he was never mine. She found herself thinking of Jon’s mother, that shadowy secret love her husband would never speak of. Does she grieve for Ned as I do? Or did she hate him for leaving her bed for mine? Does she pray for her son as I have prayed for mine?

They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.

That’s why trying to guess Jon’s age based on any assumptions Cat makes is futile. Cat is not a reliable narrator when it comes to Jon.  You can’t disregard the fact that it’s in Cat’s best interest for Jon to be younger than Robb.  Cat’s problem with Jon has always been the inherent threat he is to her children’s inheritance.  

I know everyone pretty much ignores this, but Harwin makes it clear that the rumor around Winterfell, isn’t just that Ashara is Jon’s mom, but Ashara and Ned’s affair took place around the time of Harrenhal.  Which very well mean that the servants around Winterfell, who probably spent more time with Ned’s bastard than Cat ever did, think that Jon may have been born well before Robb.

Regardless, if we take these So Spake Martin’s seriously, than we probably have to conclude that Jon has to be a good bit older than Robb.  GRRM puts Jon’s birth 8 to 9 months before Dany’s.  Which means that Jon could have been born around the time that Dany conceived which happened before the Battle of the Trident.  And the Battle of the Trident is less than a year after the war started, by Ned’s recollection.

So the question you have to ask yourself is, how much time do you legitimately think elapsed between Robb’s conception and the Battle of the Trident?

[Melifeather]

7 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

For me, N+A=J boggles the mind because there is no need for secrecy. And if Ned had a baby with Ashara? Who cares? If there was a romance, and I mean big IF here, it started before the rebellion. Whatever promises Ned may have made her, he had to break because his life and duties suddenly changed with his father and brother's deaths. He had to step into a different role and to preserve Winterfell and his House, he had to go to war against the king. 

 

It's a sore subject for Ned. He loved Ashara, but married Catelyn out of necessity. That's not to say that he never developed affection for Catelyn over time. He took responsibility for his bastard, but the reason why he doesn't come right out and say Jon's mother was Ashara is because he was protecting her. She wants everyone to believe she's dead and it would have been necessary to erase any trail that would place her at Winterfell. The excuse that she jumped from the Palestone tower over the death of her brother and stillborn daughter is a ruse, but at least it confirms that she was indeed pregnant at one time. Ned told Robert that Jon's mother was named Wylla, and if Ashara is indeed disguised as Wylla, then Ned wasn't technically lying.

I don't believe the promise or promises he made to Lyanna had anything to do with Jon at all. I have two suspected promises, 1) that Rhaegar never kidnapped her, and 2) that she made Ned promise to give her the gift of mercy. When Ned came upon Lyanna she was dying and in great pain. I think she was raped multiple times and had a festering sword injury. When Ned killed Lady in order to spare her, I think it was an echo of what he did for Lyanna.

22 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

But then, he goes to Starfall, takes the baby away from its mother, who then turns around and kills herself, doesn't give this woman he allegedly loved a second thought in his POV, refuses to speak of her to their alleged son, imposes him on his wife, when he sees that she doesn't want him there. And when he has to go to King's Landing, Neddy can't take Jon with him to King's Landing because he's a bastard and will be treated badly. And when Catelyn doesn't want him at Winterfell, he calls her cruel, laments that Jon is too young for the Night's Watch, that he's just a boy. So instead of having a light bulb moment where he's like, oh, let me send a letter to Starfall and see if they will take him in and I will tell him that he has another option, that his mother comes from a storied House, with an super duper sword, and his uncle was a Kingsguard, instead, Ned decides that he will pack off Jon to the Night's Watch after all, without even telling him that the order is nothing like that romantic notion he has in his mind.

I find it hard to believe that Ned brought an infant all the way from Starfall to Winterfell. Such a journey would be really hard on an infant. When Catelyn left Riverrun with Robb, she hints in the text that Ned was with her:

Quote

 

"Gods have mercy," Ser Brynden exclaimed when he saw what lay before them. "This is Moat Cailin? It's no more than a—"

"—death trap," Catelyn finished. "I know how it looks, Uncle. I thought the same the first time I saw it, but Ned assured me that this ruin is more formidable than it seems. 

 

It's not unreasonable to think that Ned escorted Catelyn, Robb, and Maester Luwin from Riverrun to Winterfell on his way back from Starfall, but Jon was already at Winterfell when they arrived.

 

[Melifeather]

56 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Ned told Robert that Jon's mother was named Wylla, and if Ashara is indeed disguised as Wylla, then Ned wasn't technically lying.

And here's the thing about Wylla. Why choose to name the Dayne's wetnurse as the mother when Jon is obviously older than Ned's visit to Starfall? Ned Dayne was very matter of fact about naming her as Jon's mother and that she has been employed at Starfall for many years. Another strange thing is how the name Wylla echoes the Manderly family. Wyman has a son Wylis, and two granddaughters named Wynafryd and Wylla. I think Ashara gained her new identity from staying with the Manderlys after she and Ned crossed the Bite.

And speaking of the fisherman's daughter. Do you think GRRM included this tale as something superfluous and without significance?

[kissdbyfire]

40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know everyone pretty much ignores this, but Harwin makes it clear that the rumor around Winterfell, isn’t just that Ashara is Jon’s mom, but Ashara and Ned’s affair took place around the time of Harrenhal.  Which very well mean that the servants around Winterfell, who probably spent more time with Ned’s bastard than Cat ever did, think that Jon may have been born well before Robb.

I’m not at all ignoring what Harwin says, and what he says is not that Ashara is Jon’s mum, only that there were rumours about Ned and Ashara in Winterfell when he was a boy, and that he doesn’t even believe the rumours are true. 

ASoS, Arya VIII

“It was Harwin who rode up beside her, in the end. “Where do you think you’re going, milady? You shouldn’t run off. There are wolves in these woods, and worse things.”
“I’m not afraid,” she said. “That boy Ned said . . . ”
“Aye, he told me. Lady Ashara Dayne. It’s an old tale, that one. I heard it once at Winterfell, when I was no older than you are now.” He took hold of her bridle firmly and turned her horse around. “I doubt there’s any truth to it. But if there is, what of it? When Ned met this Dornish lady, his brother Brandon was still alive, and it was him betrothed to Lady Catelyn, so there’s no stain on your father’s honor. There’s nought like a tourney to make the blood run hot, so maybe some words were whispered in a tent of a night, who can say? Words or kisses, maybe more, but where’s the harm in that? Spring had come, or so they thought, and neither one of them was pledged.”

 

40 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Regardless, if we take these So Spake Martin’s seriously, than we probably have to conclude that Jon has to be a good bit older than Robb.  GRRM puts Jon’s birth 8 to 9 months before Dany’s.  Which means that Jon could have been born around the time that Dany conceived which happened before the Battle of the Trident.  And the Battle of the Trident is less than a year after the war started, by Ned’s recollection.

So the question you have to ask yourself is, how much time do you legitimately think elapsed between Robb’s conception and the Battle of the Trident?

Why? Martin makes it very clear that the timeline is left vague on purpose - put down the ruler and stopwatch and enjoy the story”. But I don’t recall anything there that would make me reach the conclusion that Jon has to be quite a bit older than Robb. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

When Catelyn left Riverrun with Robb, she hints in the text that Ned was with her:

 

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

It's not unreasonable to think that Ned escorted Catelyn, Robb, and Maester Luwin from Riverrun to Winterfell on his way back from Starfall, but Jon was already at Winterfell when they arrived.

The text suggests otherwise. 

AGoT, Catelyn II

”He [Ned] did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the North to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse  had already taken up residence.”

[kissdbyfire]

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

And here's the thing about Wylla. Why choose to name the Dayne's wetnurse as the mother when Jon is obviously older than Ned's visit to Starfall?

I don’t know why Ned told Robert that Jon’s mother was called Wylla. Maybe because back then, when he told Robert, Wylla was very much on his mind, given the whole thing at the ToJ etc. But that probably happened close to 14 years prior to the convo Robert and Ned have on their way to King’s Landing. 

AGoT, Eddard II

”You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time ... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black eyes and these sweet black eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

”Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Ned Dayne was very matter of fact about naming her as Jon's mother and that she has been employed at Starfall for many years. Another strange thing is how the name Wylla echoes the Manderly family. Wyman has a son Wylis, and two granddaughters named Wynafryd and Wylla. I think Ashara gained her new identity from staying with the Manderlys after she and Ned crossed the Bite.

Let me see if I understand correctly... Ashara travels w/ Ned and stays w/ the Manderlys; she assumes the name Wylla. And at some point she returns home, and remains hidden as a servant in her family’s castle? And is the wet nurse for her own nephew later on, and the boy has no idea that his wet nurse is his auntie? 

32 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

And speaking of the fisherman's daughter. Do you think GRRM included this tale as something superfluous and without significance?

I wouldn’t say it’s superfluous and insignificant, but rather deliberate  obfuscation.  

[Fun Guy from Yuggoth]

2 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

Holy crap "merryl" is an anagram of "Lemore"

[The Jingo]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know everyone pretty much ignores this, but Harwin makes it clear that the rumor around Winterfell, isn’t just that Ashara is Jon’s mom, but Ashara and Ned’s affair took place around the time of Harrenhal.  Which very well mean that the servants around Winterfell, who probably spent more time with Ned’s bastard than Cat ever did, think that Jon may have been born well before Robb. [/quote]

So the question you have to ask yourself is, how much time do you legitimately think elapsed between Robb’s conception and the Battle of the Trident?

There is nothing that says that Ned and Ashara could not have conducted an affair while on campaign. In fact, Ashara coming to meet him while he's on the march and being impregnated after he took vows to Cat would go a long with to explain the commentary on his betraying his vows.

Harrenhal cannot be accepted as proof in and of itself of Jon being older than Robb if Ashara is his mother, and nor can we conclude that she's not his mother if he is younger than Robb is.

Quote

So the question you have to ask yourself is, how much time do you legitimately think elapsed between Robb’s conception and the Battle of the Trident?

Nine months give or take a few days. Robb is explicitly a wedding night baby, as it's stated outright when he was conceived and that Ned left the day after the wedding. It's also noted that Robb was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident.

So unless the argument is that Robb is secretly a bastard with a different father or that he was born early, and the battle was less than nine months after Ned and Cat's wedding then it is indeed nine months between his conception and the Trident.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

 

The text suggests otherwise. 

AGoT, Catelyn II

”He [Ned] did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the North to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse  had already taken up residence.”

The context of that quote had to do with seeing to his bastard's needs. Catelyn was basically saying she could understand Ned taking solace during the war, that a lot of men did the same, and she expected that he'd see to his needs, but Ned did more. He shared his home with his bastard. Bringing him home, in this instance, doesn't necessarily mean nor does it confirm that Ned physically brought Jon home from the battlefield.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

I don’t know why Ned told Robert that Jon’s mother was called Wylla. Maybe because back then, when he told Robert, Wylla was very much on his mind, given the whole thing at the ToJ etc. But that probably happened close to 14 years prior to the convo Robert and Ned have on their way to King’s Landing. 

AGoT, Eddard II

”You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time ... what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black eyes and these sweet black eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was ... Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

”Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

Let me see if I understand correctly... Ashara travels w/ Ned and stays w/ the Manderlys; she assumes the name Wylla. And at some point she returns home, and remains hidden as a servant in her family’s castle? And is the wet nurse for her own nephew later on, and the boy has no idea that his wet nurse is his auntie? 

I wouldn’t say it’s superfluous and insignificant, but rather deliberate  obfuscation.  

I posit that Ned and Ashara crossed the Bite together to White Harbor before continuing on to Winterfell. I don't know if Wyman knew who she was or not, but I think she took inspiration for her pseudonym from the Manderly's naming "system". After leaving Jon at Winterfell she returned home. She doesn't fake her own death until after the Rebellion is over, so I wouldn't think she'd take up the name Wylla until then. And yes, I think she chose to keep her true identity hidden and live as a servant in her own household rather than be forced to marry beneath her station. Her father is dead. Her brother Arthur is dead. Her older brother is also dead. There are no male heirs left to force her into marriage other than Ned Dayne, who would have been born after she already assumed the identity. We've got Sansa Stark doing the very same thing. She's living with Peter pretending to be his daughter Alayne. After Lysa married Peter and after the Marillion accosted Sansa, Lysa tells Sansa that she knows who she is. Later on Lysa tries to push Sansa out the Moondoor, but Petyr pushes Lysa out instead. I theorize that there was a Dayne at home that knew Wylla wasn't Ashara, but she or he died, and then Ned and Ashara pushed the body off the Palestone Tower so that Ashara could remain at Starfall as Wylla. She's committed to the new identity so Ned Dayne doesn't know. Since all of the male heirs are dead and Ashara's elder brother is credited with being Ned's father, the fact that he had a wetnurse suggests that his mother is dead too. But I suspect Ashara is his true mother, named him after her lost love, and to continue to keep her identity secret she was forced to lie to Ned about his own true parentage. Who else lives at Starfall to contradict her?

46 minutes ago, The Jingo said:

There is nothing that says that Ned and Ashara could not have conducted an affair while on campaign. In fact, Ashara coming to meet him while he's on the march and being impregnated after he took vows to Cat would go a long with to explain the commentary on his betraying his vows.

Harrenhal cannot be accepted as proof in and of itself of Jon being older than Robb if Ashara is his mother, and nor can we conclude that she's not his mother if he is younger than Robb is.

Nine months give or take a few days. Robb is explicitly a wedding night baby, as it's stated outright when he was conceived and that Ned left the day after the wedding. It's also noted that Robb was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident.

So unless the argument is that Robb is secretly a bastard with a different father or that he was born early, and the battle was less than nine months after Ned and Cat's wedding then it is indeed nine months between his conception and the Trident.

I find it hard to believe that Ashara would hunt Ned down during the war for a bootie call. Ashara was Elia's handmaiden. If she left Elia's side it wouldn't have been for something as frivolous as a sexual relationship. It would be very dangerous to travel for no particular reason other than to try and find Ned.

With regards to Robb's conception - Catelyn said she and Ned were together for two weeks before he returned to the war. 

Quote

Ned had lingered scarcely a fortnight with his new bride before he too had ridden off to war with promises on his lips. At least he had left her with more than words; he had given her a son. Nine moons had waxed and waned, and Robb had been born in Riverrun while his father still warred in the south. She had brought him forth in blood and pain, not knowing whether Ned would ever see him. Her son. He had been so small …

Ned and Jon Arryn approached Hoster Tully to request men to help save Robert at Stoney Sept. The marriages sealed the contract, and I think the two weeks (fortnight) was the time it took for Hoster to muster his men. Two weeks is also long enough to hold a wedding, so I think they were married before Stoney Sept. Jon Arryn isn't credited with helping save Robert, so it would make sense that after he married Lysa he returned to whatever battlefront he was warring while Ned and Hoster saved Robert.

Robb could have been born during the Sack or even when Ned went to lift the siege at Storms End. This helps place Robb's birthday, but not Jon's. The period from when Jon Arryn called his banners until the Sack is said to be about one year, and the period from the beginning of the siege of Storms End until it was lifted was also said to be about a year. If Ned was still warring, the latest Robb was born was when the siege was lifted. Nine months prior would be Robb's conception with the Battle of the Bells two weeks later.

Sorry. I didn't mean to get into a timeline discussion. Lets get back to the main topic of the OP which is Ashara as Jon's mother...has anyone theorized why Jon was "unwanted" in Dorne? I mean, I don't think he was ever there, but...

[kissdbyfire]

26 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The context of that quote had to do with seeing to his bastard's needs. Catelyn was basically saying she could understand Ned taking solace during the war, that a lot of men did the same, and she expected that he'd see to his needs, but Ned did more. He shared his home with his bastard. Bringing him home, in this instance, doesn't necessarily mean nor does it confirm that Ned physically brought Jon home from the battlefield.

Just to be clear, I never said Ned brought Jon home directly from the battlefield; no idea where that came from. But you ignored the point I made, and the quote I provided makes it very clear. It’s not that Ned “brought Jon home”, but that he brought Jon home with him. So, it’s two things: a) you don’t say person A “brought” person B if person A had actually sent person B. And b) the text is quite clear, as I said before: Ned brought Jon home with him.

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I posit that Ned and Ashara crossed the Bite together to White Harbor before continuing on to Winterfell. I don't know if Wyman knew who she was or not, but I think she took inspiration for her pseudonym from the Manderly's naming "system". After leaving Jon at Winterfell she returned home. She doesn't fake her own death until after the Rebellion is over, so I wouldn't think she'd take up the name Wylla until then. And yes, I think she chose to keep her true identity hidden and live as a servant in her own household rather than be forced to marry beneath her station.

Why would she be forced to marry beneath her station? 

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Her father is dead. Her brother Arthur is also dead. Her older brother is also dead. There are no male heirs left to force her into marriage other than Ned Dayne, who would have been born after she already assumed the identity.

Wait... before you said she decided to live as a servant in her own castle to avoid being forced to marry beneath her station. But now you’re saying there was no one left to force her to marry. Which one is it?

Quote

We've got Sansa Stark doing the very same thing. She's living with Peter pretending to be his daughter Alayne. After Lysa married Peter and after the Marillion accosted Sansa, Lysa tells Sansa that she knows who she is. Later on Lysa tries to push Sansa out the Moondoor, but Petyr pushes Lysa out instead. I theorize that there was a Dayne at home that knew Wylla wasn't Ashara, but she or he died,

But you had said there were no male Daynes left. So the Dayne in question here is a female? Also, you said Ashara was hiding as Wylla, but now this Dayne knows Wylla isn’t Ashara? Colour me confused. 

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and then Ned and Ashara pushed the body off the Palestone Tower so that Ashara could remain at Starfall as Wylla. She's committed to the new identity so Ned Dayne doesn't know.

Erhm... if Ned and Ashara push a body off the tower so that Ashara can remain there as Wylla, how can Ned not know any of this? Or are you saying Ned Stark helped her push the body, and Ned Dayne doesn’t know anything about that? 

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Since all of the male heirs are dead and Ashara's elder brother is credited with being Ned's father, the fact that he had a wetnurse suggests that his mother is dead too. But I suspect Ashara is his true mother, named him after her lost love, and to continue to keep her identity secret she was forced to lie to Ned about his own true parentage. Who else lives at Starfall to contradict her?

Not necessarily, she may just not have enough milk, or she didn’t want to breastfeed him. And now Ashara is Edric Dayne’s mother? And Jon’s? Also, there’s at least one Dayne left, Allyria Dayne, who was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion. 

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

t's also noted that Robb was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident.

Where is it noted that Robb was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident?

ETA: let me help you it’s not.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, The Jingo said:

Nine months give or take a few days. Robb is explicitly a wedding night baby, as it's stated outright when he was conceived and that Ned left the day after the wedding. It's also noted that Robb was born around the time of the Battle of the Trident.

So unless the argument is that Robb is secretly a bastard with a different father or that he was born early, and the battle was less than nine months after Ned and Cat's wedding then it is indeed nine months between his conception and the Trident.

So you’re saying that in less than three months the following happened:

1. Arryn calls his banners and the Battle of Gulltown is fought.

2. Ned Stark makes his trip through the Fingers, Sisterton and to White Harbor to make his way to Winterfell.

3.  Robert Baratheon sails to Storm’s End where he calls his banners.  Other lords gather to oppose him.  Than the Battles at Summerhall.

4.  Robert marches from Storm’s End where he encounters Randall’s forces at the Battle of Ashford.

5.  Eddard calls his Banners and than marches south where he ultimately meets up with Arryn and his forces.

6.  Eddard and Arryn negotiate with Lord Hoster Tully to gain his support.

7.  Connington chases Robert’s army to the Stoney Sept.  Robert hides out in the Stoney Sept.  

8.  Stark and Tully arrive at Stoney Sept and the Battle of the Bells occurs.

9.  The marriages of Jon Arryn and Eddard Stark are than arranged.

While in your timeline after Robb is conceived nine months elapse before any other battle of significance happens??

Cat says that Robb was born nine months after their honeymoon.  She states that Eddard is still fighting battles in the south.  The battles in the south did not end after the Battle of the Trident or the Sack of King’s Landing.

In fact we know that Eddard rode out after the Sack to continue fighting battles in the South.

We know that the Seige of Storm’s End lasted a good bit after the Sack of King’s Landing.  We know this because we’re told that the war raged for almost a year before the Sack, while the Siege of Storm’s End only began after the Battle of Ashford and it also lasts almost a year.

We have no idea when the Battle at the tower of joy occurs only that it had to have occurred after the Siege of Storm’s End was lifted and within a year of Cat’s marriage to Eddard.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Just to be clear, I never said Ned brought Jon home directly from the battlefield; no idea where that came from. But you ignored the point I made, and the quote I provided makes it very clear. It’s not that Ned “brought Jon home”, but that he brought Jon home with him. So, it’s two things: a) you don’t say person A “brought” person B if person A had actually sent person B. And b) the text is quite clear, as I said before: Ned brought Jon home with him.

I think the interpretation is more open than that. Jon was at Winterfell when Catelyn arrived, and the text implies that Ned escorted Catelyn home from Riverrun. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Why would she be forced to marry beneath her station? 

Because Westeros places high value on a girl's maidenhead. An unwed mother has poor prospects. Even though Hoster forced an abortion on Lysa, the only man he could get to marry her was a desperate old man. Jon Arryn didn't have a son. His heirs were distant nephews, cousins, etc, and he needed men for war. Hoster had Jon over a barrel. Lollys Stokeworth was raped coming back from the procession to see Myrcella off when the crowd rioted. When Tywin told Tyrion that he must be wed to a noblewoman and he suggested Lollys, Tyrion was horrified. She ends up with Bronn, but Bronn is an up-jumped sellsword that accepted the marriage, because it came with a lordship. It was the lordship that got him to agree to marry her. No man that already had land would ever accept a marriage proposal to Lollys. 

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Wait... before you said she decided to live as a servant in her own castle to avoid being forced to marry beneath her station. But now you’re saying there was no one left to force her to marry. Which one is it?

OK, so I didn't phrase that very well. I'm sure there are other male relatives that would want to make a match for Ashara - if they could. Edric Dayne is the current Lord of Starfall, but he was away from home, squiring for Beric Dondarrion. Now that Beric is dead, he may have returned home. Somebody is holding down the fort for Edric, but it's not his father. Perhaps a man-at-arms? Whoever is left is going along with Ashara's wishes.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

But you had said there were no male Daynes left. So the Dayne in question here is a female? Also, you said Ashara was hiding as Wylla, but now this Dayne knows Wylla isn’t Ashara? Colour me confused. 

The parallel to Sansa suggests that Ashara has an aunt or at least a female relative left at Starfall.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Erhm... if Ned and Ashara push a body off the tower so that Ashara can remain there as Wylla, how can Ned not know any of this? Or are you saying Ned Stark helped her push the body, and Ned Dayne doesn’t know anything about that? 

Ned Stark knows Ashara isn't dead, but Edric "Ned" Dayne" doesn't know Wylla is Ashara.

1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Not necessarily, she may just not have enough milk, or she didn’t want to breastfeed him. And now Ashara is Edric Dayne’s mother? And Jon’s? Also, there’s at least one Dayne left, Allyria Dayne, who was betrothed to Beric Dondarrion. 

It just seems like any child named after Ned Stark feels sentimental. Ned killed Arthur. I don't think returning his sword would be enough to want to name a future heir of Starfall after the man that killed one it's greatest knights. But it does feel like something a woman with feelings for an old love would do.