If Ned+Ashara= Jon, was Jon unwanted in Dorne?

[corbon]

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I don’t subscribe to the theory that Jon is Ashara’s child, it’s clear that there may be some shroud of secrecy involving Ashara, and what she was up to during the events surrounding Robert’s rebellion.  At least if you subscribe to the theory that Ashara’s death was faked.  

Couple that with the fact that Eddard allegedly refuses to allow Ashara’s name to be spoken at Winterfell,

More accurately, Ned shuts down the source of whispers about Jon's mother, where he can. So none of them reach Cat any more.

Quote

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne's name was never heard in Winterfell again.

...and nor was any other, in connection with Jon.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

and the odd fact that Edric Dayne was apparently named after Ned,

You mean supposedly. There's no actual indication Edric was named after Eddard, only supposition from fans.

But even if he was, its not exactly odd.
Eddard Stark gave House Dayne their entire identity back.
What is House Dayne, without Dawn? Its their sigil, their history, their honour, their legends, their reknown. 
Ned Stark took it in battle with their greatest. He didn't have to give it back. He could have kept it, ransomed it, melted it done, done anything he wanted with it.
Instead, he made a difficult journey in the opposite direction to home, just to give it back.

The magnitude of what the Dayne owe Ned Stark is beyond comprehension for us, with our modern lives and sensibilities.

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

there may be something going on beneath the surface with Ashara that Eddard does wish to keep a secret.

There is no indication of such.

 

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

He thinks of Lyanna quite often, Rhaegar not so much. 

Infinitely more of Rhaegar than Ashara. He never even says her name once, with his tongue or with his mind, that we can observe.

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I suppose you could connect the two thoughts together by coming to the conclusion that Ned thinks that Rhaegar satisfies his lusts with high born maidens like his sister as opposed to common prostitutes.  Yet somehow it doesn’t really fit smoothly.

Of course it doesn't. The two thoughts are connected by Jon Snow's bastardry, not by brothel-lust.

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Rhaegar was never one known for his lustful disposition.

Indeed. Bastards can be born of love between lovers, as well as lust in a brothel.

[corbon]

36 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

The evidence that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna is hearsay also,

Its more than hearsay. Its official history. Right or wrong.
And real-world significant actions and results and interactions flowed from it (true or false, again). With massive consequences for virtually everyone.

Something actually happened there. We may or may not have the 'right' story exactly yet, but there definitely is a story there.

None of those things can be said about N+A

Quote

 and nobody, not one single character, ever suggests or hints that Rhaegar might be Jon’s father or Lyanna his mother, even though most everyone believes that he kidnapped her and Ned ended up with a bastard child during the Rebellion. Surely there would have been rumors. 

There are rumours. Satisfying, salacious rumours. Just wrong rumours.
N+A. Fishermans Daughter. Wylla. 1000 rapes. These are all rumours. And none of them fit all the actual data points, though each fits a limited set of data points relevant to the people who promulgate them.

[Frey family reunion]

18 minutes ago, corbon said:

Indeed. Bastards can be born of love between lovers, as well as lust in a brothel.

You seem to be missing the point.  Eddard distinctly makes a connection between Jon Snow and the lusts in the hearts of men.  It’s Jon Snow that Ned pictures when he makes this lament.  Thus, the reasonable conclusion, is that Ned seems to believe that Jon was born out of lust.  

Not saying that this necessary excludes Rhaegar as being someone who Eddard believes is Jon’s father.  But it is an odd juxtaposition.

[frenin]

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, he's not. He's a man with a deadly secret talking to the very man from whence that danger exists. But he doesn't need to sophistry in this case. Thanks to GRRM, the conversation flows naturally without it.

Every name but Lyanna is going to satisfy Robert as long  as Ned tells him how big the boobs of the girl he banged were, there is no need for secrecy, nor there is for sophisms, Martin and Robert made a pretty straight question and receive a pretty straight answer.

 

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

Except thats an inaccurate rendering of the conversation. I don't believe people are being actively dishonest here, but thats a description of a whole different conversation. Its right there in black and white.
I don't understand why people can't just go back and read it with a blank slate and see whats actually there, rather than cling to the inaccurate idea that the conversation was about "Jon's mother".

Robert is reminiscing about old times and freedom, segues to grumbling about Ned never being that free and easy anyway (never the boy you were) and from there to "yet, there was that one time...' and asking for the name of "that common girl of yours".
The whole time, even after Ned gives him the name Wylla again, Robert is thinking about free, fun, times with pretty girls. 

Robert is not asking about Jon's mother. He's asking/thinking about that rare wench that made Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor one time.

The whole Jon's mother thing is nothing more than Robert trying to clarify to Ned who he's think of, to jog Ned's response.

Ned answered the question Robert asked, both literally and in general terms of the conversation. Its not a 'weasel out' from Ned being super careful here and sophist-ing past Robert's question. 
Ned's good fortune about how this conversation ran is due to GRRM, not anything Ned did.

I did and it's an straight forward as you can get.

 

Quote

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"
"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."
"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Robert is asking for the name of Jon's mother, name Robert had already heard before from Ned but he simply had forgotten, there is nothing complicated there, there is nothing cryptic, it's a straight forward question from someone who don't remeber well a name and it's rambling.

 

 

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

Yes there is. Its inconsistent for Ned because we consistently see him shutting down, coldly and angrily, any conversation about Jon's origins. And we even see it in this conversation. But there's no point in shutting down the conversation about Jon's mother when you've outright told the other participant who the mother is.

 

We're told why he shuts down any conversation about her, Ned is ashamed of it. But Robert himself states that while Ned did told him the name he never got to tell him how she was. Robert is just rubbing salt on something that deeply ashames Ned, but that's not the reason why he would not tell him a name, especially if as Bobby B believes, it's a common girl.

 

 

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

 Its out of character for Ned because Ned lies rarely and only out of necessity and never casually. This would have been an unnecessary and stupid lie. If it was done, it must have been done casually without much thought, because it isn't controllable. Its nearly impossible that Ned can know that no one can prove Wylla wasn't anywhere near him in the early war - because she wasn't near him, and she wasn't under his control, nor were the peope around her.
Unless we somehow get new information, that Wylla was a camp follower or similar near him around the time of Jon's conception - something that is currently contra-indicated by her placement at Starfall for over a decade and likely appearance at ToJ. If we get such information, then that changes what is reasonable and relevant for Ned to say.

It's neither out of character, because as he himself says there a times that there is honor in a lie. nor would've been  stupid, if Ned tells Robert/Robert is told he has a bastard, Robert is going to ask him wtf happened there and Robert knows Ned, so he must have a name around.

Ned doesn't need any of that because as far as we know, only he and Robert (maybe old Jon) know about Wylla per Ned's mouth, as far as we know Robert and only Robert is the only one outside Starfall who knows the name of Jon's mother, knowing this there rest falls apart, Robert is not going to lead a thorough research for a common girl, no one will. Robert is content enough with a name and since it's a common girl, Robert os going to forget the name at the end of the week.  This is a lie told to his best pal in confidence, Robert asked, Ned said Wylla and that was that, there is really no reason for more.

Besides, how would no one going to get nothing from a single common name Wylla?? It's not like it's something exotic like Ashara, Ned could've banged an infinite and faceless Wyllas during the war. Good luck trying to find something.

 

 

48 minutes ago, corbon said:

We agree.
I'm just also saying its incredibly unlikely King Robert didn't get a report from his Master of Whispers about Ned's visit to Starfall to return Dawn.
So I think Robert came into that earlier conversation with Ned with pre-formed ideas, likely about Wylla being Jon's mum. And in a parallel (why, with all the emphasis in parallel and similarities, does no one else see this?) to what we see, the old conversation showed much the form of the one we witnessed - Robert with assumptions, Ned saying as little as possible but not denying Robert's useful assumptions.

Why would King Robert need or care about a report from his master of whispers from Ned's whereabouts??  Whatever happened in Dorne, Robert is going to hear it from Ned himself, also how is that Varys has spies in Starfall of all places??  

[Frey family reunion]

21 minutes ago, corbon said:

More accurately, Ned shuts down the source of whispers about Jon's mother, where he can. So none of them reach Cat any more.

No, Eddard specifically demands to know where Cat heard the name Ashara Dayne from, and after that exchange, Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard again.

If Ashara Dayne is not Jon’s mother (and I don’t believe she was) than why would Eddard care whether or not her name is bandied about if his only concern is that Jon’s secret remain safe?  In fact, the opposite should be true, Ned shouldn’t care whether Ashara’s name is brought up or Wylla’s name is brought up as long as no one is making a connection that Lyanna was Jon’s mother.  

It makes me think that Eddard may be guarding more than one secret dating back to the Rebellion.

[lehutin]

43 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

He thinks of Lyanna quite often, Rhaegar not so much. 

Come now, you aren't making that error, are you? In the previous Ned POV chapter (Eddard VIII), Ned thought to himself, 

Quote

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen. Fifteen years dead, yet Robert hates him as much as ever.

So that's back-to-back chapters where Ned "thinks" of Rhaegar. But it's more than that. By my count, excluding Robert's mentions of Rhaegar in Ned's chapters, Ned thinks of Rhaegar 10 times in his POV chapters. (There's actually an 11th instance I can remember, as Ned brings up "Rhaegar's children" to Cersei in Eddard XII).

 

In comparison, Ashara Dayne is mentioned 10 times total from AGOT through ADWD (and not a single time from Ned himself!)

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, lehutin said:

Come now, you aren't making that error, are you? In the previous Ned POV chapter (Eddard VIII), Ned thought to himself, 

So that's back-to-back chapters where Ned "thinks" of Rhaegar. But it's more than that. By my count, excluding Robert's mentions of Rhaegar in Ned's chapters, Ned thinks of Rhaegar 10 times in his POV chapters. (There's actually an 11th instance I can remember, as Ned brings up "Rhaegar's children" to Cersei in Eddard XII).

 

In comparison, Ashara Dayne is mentioned 10 times total from AGOT through ADWD (and not a single time from Ned himself!)

The point being is that Eddard specifically says that he hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years.  Which seems odd, if in fact Eddard was raising Rhaegar’s son.

But of course Rhaegar gets mentioned in Eddard’s chapters, because Eddard has been reunited with Robert, and it’s Robert who consistently brings Rhaegar’s name up.  Which in turn makes Eddard think about Rhaegar’s children.  

But interestingly enough, it’s only after Robert’s tirades that brings Eddard’s thoughts back to the incident in King’s Landing.  When if the entire premise of the R + L = J theory is correct, Eddard has to be living with the fear of Robert’s threat to Jon, all the time.  Yet that doesn’t appear to be the case:

Quote

“Would that I could,” Catelyn said.  “The letter had other tidings.  The king is riding to Winterfell to seek you out.”

It took Ned a moment to comprehend her words, but when the understanding came, the darkness left his eyes.  “Robert is coming here?” When she nodded, a smile broke across his face.

If Eddard believes that Robert poses this huge threat to Jon, Eddard first hearing of Robert coming to Winterfell, where he would come in contact with Jon should have brought fear or dread to Eddard, no matter his prior friendship with Robert.  But it doesn’t.  In fact he specifically seems to believe that Robert is no threat to him or his family, and by family I would have to include Jon:

Quote

Ned shook his head, refusing to believe.  “Robert would never harm me or any of mine.”

 

[corbon]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

You seem to be missing the point.  Eddard distinctly makes a connection between Jon Snow and the lusts in the hearts of men.  It’s Jon Snow that Ned pictures when he makes this lament.  Thus, the reasonable conclusion, is that Ned seems to believe that Jon was born out of lust.  

Not saying that this necessary excludes Rhaegar as being someone who Eddard believes is Jon’s father.  But it is an odd juxtaposition.

I think your connection is wrong.
Ned has just in the brothel talking with Barra's mother. He is thinking about their conversation
She asked him to make sure Barra, the bastard, is cared for, has a life.

Quote

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

The thing Ned is recollecting then, matching/leading to Jon's face, is his promise to care for another's bastard, which he literally gave in the preceding paragraph. 
Jon Snow is brought up, not because of men's lusts, but because of Ned's promises.
Jon is a bastard, and that leads to the treatment of bastards.
The treatment of bastards is what brings up the thought of men's lusts, not Jon directly.
 

[Frey family reunion]

7 minutes ago, corbon said:

I think your connection is wrong.
Ned has just in the brothel talking with Barra's mother. He is thinking about their conversation
She asked him to make sure Barra, the bastard, is cared for, has a life.

The thing Ned is recollecting then, matching/leading to Jon's face, is his promise to care for another's bastard, which he literally gave in the preceding paragraph. 
Jon Snow is brought up, not because of men's lusts, but because of Ned's promises.
Jon is a bastard, and that leads to the treatment of bastards.
The treatment of bastards is what brings up the thought of men's lusts, not Jon directly.
 

He’s literally picturing Jon Snow when he thinks about the lusts of men.  If Jon’s the exception to this rule,  then Ned shouldn’t be picturing Jon.  

That’s the basic problem with the theory of Rhaegar being Jon’s father, it’s not treated as a theory, it’s treated as canon.  And any discrepancies to this theory are willfully ignored even if it leads to an absurd interpretation of a very clear text.

[corbon]

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Every name but Lyanna is going to satisfy Robert as long  as Ned tells him how big the boobs of the girl he banged were, there is no need for secrecy, nor there is for sophisms, Martin and Robert made a pretty straight question and receive a pretty straight answer.

There is need for secrecy because if he is caught in a lie the life of his family is at risk.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

I did and it's an straight forward as you can get.

Well, you don;t seem to be reading what I wrote, because you ignored every point and just repeated the same thing without making any counterpoints or explanation.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Robert is asking for the name of Jon's mother, name Robert had already heard before from Ned but he simply had forgotten, there is nothing complicated there, there is nothing cryptic, it's a straight forward question from someone who don't remeber well a name and it's rambling.

Indeed. It is a straightforward question from someone making saucy recollections who can't remember a name and asks for it. It is utterly rambling, and messy - it includes 3 failed self-attempts to answer and a sidetrack to a saucy memory of Robert's own.
But you mis-represent the subject. The subject is not "Jon's mother", the subject is the woman Robert believes to be "that one time", "your common girl", that "rare wench who could make Lord Stark forget his honour even for an hour".
Robert believes that individual to be Jon's mother, and states so to Ned in order to help Ned get the name, but he does not ask 'if' she was Jon's mother, he tells Ned she was. Ned answers the question,, the name, not the statement about the mother.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

We're told why he shuts down any conversation about her, Ned is ashamed of it. But Robert himself states that while Ned did told him the name he never got to tell him how she was. Robert is just rubbing salt on something that deeply ashames Ned, but that's not the reason why he would not tell him a name, especially if as Bobby B believes, it's a common girl.

Right. Its just a name of some common girl - so long as Ned never claims her as Jon's mother. The moment he does that, he's a liar who could be found out, and if he's caught lying then he must be hiding something - which is not just an affair that shamed Catelyn, since he's already admitted to that!
 

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's neither out of character, because as he himself says there a times that there is honor in a lie.

Indeed.
Where's the honor in this lie? To protect Jon? But this lie puts Jon at risk as it risks him being exposed hiding something.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

nor would've been  stupid,

I believe I have adequately shown how very stupid it would be.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

if Ned tells Robert/Robert is told he has a bastard, Robert is going to ask him wtf happened there and Robert knows Ned, so he must have a name around.

And Ned is very able to put Robert off, as he does here. 
Robert doesn't have to have a name. Robert only needs an idea of what happened. the name is a bonus and we see Robert isn't really pushing Ned on the name for the sake of the name he's just expecting it answered because it was before. Robert's only interested in the salacious dreaming.
And Ned is not protective of the name. The name isn;t important. He's given that before and does again. Because the name is just that of a wetnurse. Robert can happily (from Ned's pov) think she is the mum as long as Ned is not found to be lying about it. 

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned doesn't need any of that because as far as we know, only he and Robert (maybe old Jon) know about Wylla per Ned's mouth,

But others know about Wylla. Starfall knows, or thinks it does. Ned clearly doesn't have control over the Wylla story. If Robert were the only one in the world to think this, then you'd have a point. It would just be Ned and Robert, two friends in private. But its not. Which indicates that Its not just a story Ned made up and told Robert and Robert alone. It has other origins.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

as far as we know Robert and only Robert is the only one outside Starfall who knows the name of Jon's mother,

And here your ideas fall apart, because this isn't enough. If Starfall knows this story then its not a private story Ned told Robert.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Besides, how would no one going to get nothing from a single common name Wylla?? It's not like it's something exotic like Ashara, Ned could've banged an infinite and faceless Wyllas during the war. Good luck trying to find something.

Ned didn't bang infinite faceless Wyllas. He supposedly banged a single Wylla who is was wetnurse to his bastard and is now residing at Starfall where she has long been wetnurse to the Daynes. 
Wylla is not difficult to track or find should someone try.

27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would King Robert need or care about a report from his master of whispers from Ned's whereabouts??  Whatever happened in Dorne, Robert is going to hear it from Ned himself, also how is that Varys has spies in Starfall of all places??  

So your contention then is that Ned, after leaving Robert in a rage to go south and finish off the war, disappeared after Storms End, reappeared at Starfall with the Sword of Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar's closest companion and the most legendary knight on the royalist side who mysteriously was never seen during the Rebellion, and not only does Robert not give a shit, but nor does anyone else at court? No one? About Arthur Dayne. 
Well... you are free to think what you think, the arguments are here for all to see.

Why wouldn't Varys have spies and contacts and information streaming in from all around Westeros? Thats his job. And he's trying to keep it (and his head) after a regime change.
Its not like Ned returning Dawn to the Dayne is a deep dirty secret that happened in private.
Varys could have reports from travelling merchants at Starfall at the time, a minor spy in the household, an even more minor spy outside the gates of the castle in the town, who knows. Who cares. 
 

[corbon]

18 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

He’s literally picturing Jon Snow when he thinks about the lusts of men.  If Jon’s the exception to this rule,  then Ned shouldn’t be picturing Jon.  

That’s the basic problem with the theory of Rhaegar being Jon’s father, it’s not treated as a theory, it’s treated as canon.  And any discrepancies to this theory are willfully ignored even if it leads to an absurd interpretation of a very clear text.

You literally cut out the part of the quote I underlined to bring to your attention.
Promises to care for another's bastard -> Jon Snow -> gods frowning on bastards -> gods giving men lusts.

Thats not at all the same as Jon Snow-> mens lusts.

Its not me ignoring discrepancies with their ideas.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

You literally cut out the part of the quote I underlined to bring to your attention.
Promises to care for another's bastard -> Jon Snow -> gods frowning on bastards -> gods giving men lusts.

Thats not at all the same as Jon Snow-> mens lusts.

Its not me ignoring discrepancies with their ideas.

I know you have to go into contortions to try and explain this away, but please just stop, it’s unseemly.  It’s ok if Ned thinks that Rhaegar sired Jon out of lust.  Because clearly that’s the takeaway from the passage.  Ned is left caring for bastards which were created from the lusts of men.  Now perhaps Ned believes that he has to take care of the product of both Robert’s lusts and Rhaegar’s lust.   Or perhaps Ned is thinking of someone else as having conceived Jon through lust.  But regardless that’s the only clear reading of this passage.  

[corbon]

59 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

No, Eddard specifically demands to know where Cat heard the name Ashara Dayne from, and after that exchange, Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard again.

Context. I made this clear but you are choosing to ignore it.

Quote

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon¹," he said, cold as ice. "He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where² you heard that name, my lady." She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped³, and Ashara Dayne's⁴ name was never heard in Winterfell again.

1. Ned supplies his context to the conversation. Catelyn's context is Ashara, but she's not the important one here.
2. the critical thing Ned wants to know is where she heard the name, not any details about the name. And we see why in 3.
3. The whispering stopped. The whispering. Not 'the whispering about Ashara', but the whispering about Jon's mother. At least where Cat or Ned could hear it. Thats was Ned's aim, as per 1, and that was the effect. Cat has no better or other idea about Jon's mother because there's been no other whispering either, in her or Ned's presence.
4. This is Cat's context. But we can tell from Ned's context and from Cat's lack of other ideas that all the whispering (where they could hear it at least) stopped. Ashara's name was never heard by Cat in Winterfell again, neither was any other purported "Jon's mother".

59 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Ashara Dayne is not Jon’s mother (and I don’t believe she was) than why would Eddard care whether or not her name is bandied about if his only concern is that Jon’s secret remain safe?  

Because if Ashara wasn't the mother then thats a rumour than can be disproven, leading gossipers to find new options. 
Better the gossip stops entirely.

59 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

In fact, the opposite should be true, Ned shouldn’t care whether Ashara’s name is brought up or Wylla’s name is brought up as long as no one is making a connection that Lyanna was Jon’s mother.  

Indeed. But he does. 
There is only one explanation, and funnily enough that fits with all the observed data. Ned tries to kill all gossip about Jon;s mum becasue its all wrong and the nature of gossip is that it stays alive and will shift with new information. Better it dies.

 

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I know you have to go into contortions to try and explain this away, but please just stop, it’s unseemly. 

Reading the text exactly as it is, not as I desire it, is not contortions.
Its not me literally skipping passages.

Lets break it down again for you.
 

Quote

Good to you, Ned thought hollowly. "I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting."

Ned promises to care for another's bastard in a brothel

Quote

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own.

Jon Snow is the previous another's bastard he promised to care for
... other's bastard he promised

Quote

If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully,

the gods frown on bastards. They've certainly frowned on Jon Snow, with the familial difficulties he's had to grow up with within Ned's household.

Quote

why did they fill men with such lusts?

and brothel-bastards (which Ned's just been dealing with) come from the gods filling men with lusts

 

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, corbon said:

Indeed. But he does. 
There is only one explanation, and funnily enough that fits with all the observed data. Ned tries to kill all gossip about Jon;s mum becasue its all wrong and the nature of gossip is that it stays alive and will shift with new information. Better it dies.

I’m not sure that this is the only explanation, but I agree that this is a possibility.  A more interesting possibility ( in my mind because I like the idea of characters not being completely honest even within themselves) is that Cat may be shifting the entirety of the blame unto Eddard.  That only Eddard was upset when she brought Ashara’s name up.  In fact, it may be that Cat gave as good as she got when they got into this argument, and Cat may have been the real reason that Ashara’s name was never brought up again.  

[frenin]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

There is need for secrecy because if he is caught in a lie the life of his family is at risk.

Hence he gave the most likeliest and simpliest explanation to Robert.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Well, you don;t seem to be reading what I wrote, because you ignored every point and just repeated the same thing without making any counterpoints or explanation.

I did read it again, and again, Robert is indeed thinking of Jon's mother because as far as Robert know, she's the only one Ned have been after marry, or let alone in his life. We're talking about Ned, the pool is not very big. Conversations simply don't work that way.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Indeed. It is a straightforward question from someone making saucy recollections who can't remember a name and asks for it. It is utterly rambling, and messy - it includes 3 failed self-attempts to answer and a sidetrack to a saucy memory of Robert's own.
But you mis-represent the subject. The subject is not "Jon's mother", the subject is the woman Robert believes to be "that one time", "your common girl", that "rare wench who could make Lord Stark forget his honour even for an hour".
Robert believes that individual to be Jon's mother, and states so to Ned in order to help Ned get the name, but he does not ask 'if' she was Jon's mother, he tells Ned she was. Ned answers the question,, the name, not the statement about the mother.

Because Robert himself states that Ned told him once her name. therefore every name Robert is rambling are the same, Jon's mother. Why would Robert ask for something he already know?? He knowsthe girl he's talking about is Jon's mother, he just forgot her name.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Right. Its just a name of some common girl - so long as Ned never claims her as Jon's mother. The moment he does that, he's a liar who could be found out, and if he's caught lying then he must be hiding something - which is not just an affair that shamed Catelyn, since he's already admitted to that!

Why would he ever could be find out?? Why would no one care about it??  What are the odds that someone is going to look from a Wylla in Dorne, the Vale, the Riverlands and so, It's like trying to find a John across USA and Europe  without having a reason to do so. He would 've also had given Robert a name, since Robert would def ask for Jon.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Indeed.
Where's the honor in this lie? To protect Jon? But this lie puts Jon at risk as it risks him being exposed hiding something.

To protect Jon, Lyanna's memory and Robert. All in once. It really doesn't put him at risk, the only people who have talked about Wylla are Robert, Ned and Edric. Why would Robert care.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

I believe I have adequately shown how very stupid it would be.

Disagree.

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

And Ned is very able to put Robert off, as he does here. 
Robert doesn't have to have a name. Robert only needs an idea of what happened. the name is a bonus and we see Robert isn't really pushing Ned on the name for the sake of the name he's just expecting it answered because it was before. Robert's only interested in the salacious dreaming.
And Ned is not protective of the name. The name isn;t important. He's given that before and does again. Because the name is just that of a wetnurse. Robert can happily (from Ned's pov) think she is the mum as long as Ned is not found to be lying about it. 

If Robert ask for the woman and the only info he gets is the name and she's a baseborn is likely what he asked or what Ned thought it would satisty him. Saying that Ned's not protective of the name goes against anything we know, Wylla is only mentioned twice.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

But others know about Wylla. Starfall knows, or thinks it does. Ned clearly doesn't have control over the Wylla story. If Robert were the only one in the world to think this, then you'd have a point. It would just be Ned and Robert, two friends in private. But its not. Which indicates that Its not just a story Ned made up and told Robert and Robert alone. It has other origins.

Starfall knows and Starfall is  confined enough to not really matter, Starfall also knows a story about a Wylla, which may or may not be true, if someone goes to snuff there, what they would get is that Starfall is lying, not that Ned is lying since as far as we know, Ned never told Robert nothing but her name.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

And here your ideas fall apart, because this isn't enough. If Starfall knows this story then its not a private story Ned told Robert.

Starfall story about Wylla is as credible as the Fisherman's daughter. Ned never said Robert, I banged Wylla a wetnurse from Starfall, he just said Wylla. There are enough Wyllas and enough stories surrounding Jon's parentage to not matter. Starfall also knows Ned and Ashara were a thing. There a simply too many rumours to believe one, even more when with whom Ned had Jon is not that relevant, no more than with whom Roose had Ramsay or with whom Robert had Mya or Bella, oe with which commoner any noble had a bastard, that only starts to matter when the bastard is from a noblewoman too.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Ned didn't bang infinite faceless Wyllas. He supposedly banged a single Wylla who is was wetnurse to his bastard and is now residing at Starfall where she has long been wetnurse to the Daynes. 
 Wylla is not difficult to track or find should someone try.

This we don't know nor that is what Ned tells Robert, that's what Edric tells Arya. That's the story repeated at Starfall, but that's not what Ned told Robert, he told her, as far as we know, that the name of Jon's mother was Wylla and she was baseborn, nothing  else nothing more.

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

So your contention then is that Ned, after leaving Robert in a rage to go south and finish off the war, disappeared after Storms End, reappeared at Starfall with the Sword of Arthur Dayne, Rhaegar's closest companion and the most legendary knight on the royalist side who mysteriously was never seen during the Rebellion, and not only does Robert not give a shit, but nor does anyone else at court? No one? About Arthur Dayne. 
Well... you are free to think what you think, the arguments are here for all to see.

Hmm, no, that's not my argument.

My argument is that Robert doesn't need or care about Varys' whisper for nothing relating Ned's wanderings through Dorne. Everything you said, Ned can report,and likely did, when he came from Dorne. Dayne's death and whatever happened in Dorne. 

 

 

1 hour ago, corbon said:

Why wouldn't Varys have spies and contacts and information streaming in from all around Westeros? Thats his job. And he's trying to keep it (and his head) after a regime change.
Its not like Ned returning Dawn to the Dayne is a deep dirty secret that happened in private.
Varys could have reports from travelling merchants at Starfall at the time, a minor spy in the household, an even more minor spy outside the gates of the castle in the town, who knows. Who cares. 

By that infallible logic, Varys has spies in White Harbor, the Watch, Pyke and Tarth, Winterfell and the Wall. Since you yourself says, who knows who cares, it's unlikely and far fetched.  The most likely answer again is that Ned and Robert had a private chat after he came from Dorne, grieved together over Lyanna's death and Ned brieffed him over Jon.

[kissdbyfire]

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

While I don’t subscribe to the theory that Jon is Ashara’s child, it’s clear that there may be some shroud of secrecy involving Ashara, and what she was up to during the events surrounding Robert’s rebellion.  At least if you subscribe to the theory that Ashara’s death was faked.  

I think that’s very likely, but not married to the idea.

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Couple that with the fact that Eddard allegedly refuses to allow Ashara’s name to be spoken at Winterfell,

Ned never did that though. His convo w/ Cat started w/ Cat asking about Ashara because of the rumours she’d heard, but what Ned tells her in reply is, “Never ask me about Jon”, he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”

So, not only he doesn’t say anything at all about Ashara, he also never ever thinks about her. Not once. And that is very telling as well. IMO.

8 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

and the odd fact that Edric Dayne was apparently named after Ned, there may be something going on beneath the surface with Ashara that Eddard does wish to keep a secret.

Why? Because they have the same nickname? 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

The point being is that Eddard specifically says that he hadn’t thought of Rhaegar in years.  

Which is also literally wrong, as he'd thought of him in Eddard I, spoken of him with Robert in Eddard II, remembered Robert smashing him in Eddard VII, discussed him with Robert earlier in Eddard VIII then though of him away from Robert in later Eddard VIII.
Then suddenly, Eddard IX, Ned thinks for the first time in years he remembers Rhaegar.

Its clear that he must be thinking of Rhaegar the man, the personality, the character, the individual, the memory, not Rhaegar the Prince.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Which seems odd, if in fact Eddard was raising Rhaegar’s son.

Not at all. All of Jon's nurture has come from Ned. When you are careful to not think about the relationship between Jon and Rhaegar (because of the risk of letting something slip) for years, its no surprise that it becomes more natural as life moves on and habits and routines and family life forms.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But of course Rhaegar gets mentioned in Eddard’s chapters, because Eddard has been reunited with Robert, and it’s Robert who consistently brings Rhaegar’s name up.  

True for the first times. Not that Robert always brought it up first, but Rhaegar was their shared history and part of the ties that bind. He comes up around Robert.
But the early part of Eddard VIII Ned is not with Robert, though he is thinking of him in relation to Robert.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

But interestingly enough, it’s only after Robert’s tirades that brings Eddard’s thoughts back to the incident in King’s Landing.  When if the entire premise of the R + L = J theory is correct, Eddard has to be living with the fear of Robert’s threat to Jon, all the time.  Yet that doesn’t appear to be the case:

I think it does. As evidenced by Ned shutting down hard any conversation alluding to Jon's origins. 
But at the same time, a permanent threat you've lived with for 14 years starts to get a bit blase during 'normal' life'. Thats no surprise. Its effectively a threat contained almost all the time, that only needs addressing on rare occasions. 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Eddard believes that Robert poses this huge threat to Jon, Eddard first hearing of Robert coming to Winterfell, where he would come in contact with Jon

Would he? He doesn't appear to. Jon-the-bastard is kept well clear of Robert-the-King as far as we can tell.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

should have brought fear or dread to Eddard, no matter his prior friendship with Robert.  But it doesn’t.  In fact he specifically seems to believe that Robert is no threat to him or his family, and by family I would have to include Jon:

Ned's joy and soft memories of his friend are his immediate reaction. That doesn't mean Robert is no threat.

Quote

"We may not have a fortnight. We may not have a day. The king mentioned something about seeing my head on a spike." Ned frowned. He did not truly believe the king would harm him, not Robert. He was angry now, but once Ned was safely out of sight, his rage would cool as it always did.

Ned thinks that Robert wouldn't really harm him, but he's not sure. And this is relevant to something relatively minor.
Its noticeable that Ned needs to get out of sight so that Robert's rage can cool - because Robert in his rage could do very bad things.
I'm not sure even Ned would expect that Robert's rage would cool if Ned was found to be hiding dragonspawn from him and lying to him about it.

[corbon]

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hence he gave the most likeliest and simpliest explanation to Robert.

Except its not true. The secret to successful lying is to tell lies that can be controlled, that you understand completely. This is not a controllable lie.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

I did read it again, and again, Robert is indeed thinking of Jon's mother because as far as Robert know, she's the only one Ned have been after marry, or let alone in his life. We're talking about Ned, the pool is not very big. Conversations simply don't work that way.

Its clear you didn't read what I wrote, only the passage again with your own pre-formed conclusions. 
Because you didn't even start addressing a single element of the argument, just repeated your conclusions.

Robert is not thinking of the identity "Jon's mother". He is thinking of a person (whom he believes holds that identity, among many others) Robert is thinking of the identity 'that saucy wench that was so hot she cause Ned frikken Stark's honour to slip'. Thats who he asked about. He told Ned, not asked him, that that identity was Jon's mother.

Ned answered only with the name of the woman Robert is thinking of, which is the precise information he's told Robert before.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Because Robert himself states that Ned told him once her name. therefore every name Robert is rambling are the same, Jon's mother. Why would Robert ask for something he already know?? He knowsthe girl he's talking about is Jon's mother, he just forgot her name.

Indeed. Thats part of my point, Robert already knows this womans name. He's just forgotten. He already "knows" she's Jon's mother. He never asks that part, he tells it. The only thing he's asking is the thing he's forgotten, the name.
Which oddly enough, is the only thing Ned answers. "Her name was Wylla. And I would sooner not talk of her".

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would he ever could be find out?? Why would no one care about it?? 

Who knows. Its not a risk Ned can take. There is a lot at stake here.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

What are the odds that someone is going to look from a Wylla in Dorne, the Vale, the Riverlands and so, It's like trying to find a John across USA and Europe  without having a reason to do so. He would 've also had given Robert a name, since Robert would def ask for Jon.

 

Its not like finding a John across USA and Europe at all. Wylla is a known person, not in hiding, with a partially known history. She's actually currently in a location of interest thats relevant, openly.
If anyone was interested, for any reason, or just connected some dots, its very very easy to track this down.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

To protect Jon, Lyanna's memory and Robert. All in once. It really doesn't put him at risk, the only people who have talked about Wylla are Robert, Ned and Edric.

The only people we've seen discuss it are Ned, Robert and Edric. 
And Arya. And Harwin most like (he overheard other parts of the conversation). Probably Allyria Dayne. Possibly others around Wylla or Edric. Who knows how many people in or around Starfall or who actually saw Wylla nursing Jon - at Starfall or elsewhere travelling or even at Winterfell. And anyone any of those people talked to. And...
Jeez. Its a big crowd all of a sudden...

Its mind-bogglig that anyone could deny this is a dangerously unstable lie if Ned makes it.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would Robert care.

Because its the only man (or one of two - Jon Arryn) he truly trusts entirely in the world lying to him.
Because if Ned is lying about this, whats he hiding?
Because Ned came back from his southern trip with a bastard whom he's lying about, and found Lyanna on that trip...

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Disagree.

Thats ok. My purpose is to show the evidence as it is, without distortion from old preconceptions so people can make their own minds up. Some won't move from old positions, thats their own prerogative. I may be flawed in my own preconceptions too. THats for people to judge themselves on the evidence

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

If Robert ask for the woman and the only info he gets is the name and she's a baseborn is likely what he asked or what Ned thought it would satisty him.

Ned doesn't 'satisfy' Robert when we see. He shuts him down hard, angrily, despite Robert not taking the first hint.

I'm supplying a scenario that fits with all the facts and makes everything work - Robert came to that first conversation with pre-formed ideas from a report about Ned's trip to Starfall, and in a parallel to the conversation we saw he jumped to his own conclusion while Ned said as little as possible and didn't lie.
Heck, as I've said before, should Robert have had such a preconceived idea, Ned could actually deny it outright (I wouldn't expect him to) and it would only act as confirmation for Robert!

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Saying that Ned's not protective of the name goes against anything we know, Wylla is only mentioned twice.

When do we ever see Ned being protective of the name Wylla? When it comes up relevently Ned gives it freely, even as we see him shut down the conversation. In no other conversation with Ned does Wylla come up. So yes, he's not protective of the name, 100% of the times it comes up he has no problem saying the woman's name. 
Jon;'s mother though... He huts down those conversations hard every time, very protective of relevant details.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Starfall knows and Starfall is  confined enough to not really matter, 

Starfall is not confined. Starfall has people, which travel. They are not nailed down there. Starfall is at Blackhaven and who knows where else?
And its not just Starfall. What about wherever Wylla was around Jon's conception? What if she was at Godsgrace, or Nightsong, or Harvest Hall?

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Starfall also knows a story about a Wylla,

Thats not 'a' Wylla, its 'the' Wylla, Jon Snow's wetnurse, the woman Robert thinks is Ned's bastard's mother.
This is not a random nameless nobody who can't be found. This is a specific person with a specific history who isn't hiding and is still 'at the scene' openly, so to speak.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

which may or may not be true, if someone goes to snuff there, what they would get is that Starfall is lying, not that Ned is lying since as far as we know, Ned never told Robert nothing but her name.

Ahh, thats my point. 
You're arguing that Ned told Robert she was Jon's mother. So if someone goes to sniff there they'll find that Ned lied to Robert. And wonder why.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Starfall story about Wylla is as credible as the Fisherman's daughter.

The story about Ned being in love with Ashara but banging Wylla? Yes, thats less than credible.
But the story about Wylla being Jon's mother? Thats superficially credible at first. It fits with the known data points they have until someone digs into Wylla's past and finds out what she was (or was not, or where she was not) doing in the early months of the war.

We know its not credible because we have mountains of evidence from inside people's heads.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ned never said Robert, I banged Wylla a wetnurse from Starfall, he just said Wylla. There are enough Wyllas and enough stories surrounding Jon's parentage to not matter.

I don;t think thats remotely credible. There are very few credible stories about Jon's mother. There are very few Wylla's that are intimately connected to Jon Snows early infancy.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Starfall also knows Ned and Ashara were a thing.

Yeah, right. And Ned was banging Wylla while he was a thing with Ashara. Ned the never-the-boy-you-were, the that-one-time man, the didn't-take-his-pleasures man.
Starfall knows a few small details about Ned's visit there and gossips about more. 

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

There a simply too many rumours to believe one, even more when with whom Ned had Jon is not that relevant,

Its very relevant if Ned is lying to Robert about it.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

no more than with whom Roose had Ramsay or with whom Robert had Mya or Bella, oe with which commoner any noble had a bastard, that only starts to matter when the bastard is from a noblewoman too.

So it doesn't need to be lied about. Especially to Robert, who of all people would (does!) understand and even delight in a Ned slip-up with a commoner
Unless it really was a noblewoman... Two nobles, one of whom is a Stark. Neds blood.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

This we don't know nor that is what Ned tells Robert, that's what Edric tells Arya. That's the story repeated at Starfall, but that's not what Ned told Robert, he told her, as far as we know, that the name of Jon's mother was Wylla and she was baseborn, nothing  else nothing more.

Ahh. So there are multiple Wylla's? Coincidentally both Starfall and Robert independently think a Wylla is Jon' mother but its not actually the same Wylla?
I'll just leave that lying there for people to judge themselves.

All we know that Ned told Robert is the name Wylla.
We also know that somehow Robert thinks Wylla is a commoner and Jon's mother.
Somehow Starfall also thinks Wylla is a commoner and Jon's mother. <s>But Starfall and Robert's information in not nohow anyway related. Its not even the same Wylla! </s>
And Robert would not, nohow, anyway, ever hear a report about Ned's visit at Starfall where he return the sword of the mysteriously missing Arthur Dayne.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Hmm, no, that's not my argument.

Its the only conclusion available from the argument you are making.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

My argument is that Robert doesn't need or care about Varys' whisper for nothing relating Ned's wanderings through Dorne. Everything you said, Ned can report,and likely did, when he came from Dorne. Dayne's death and whatever happened in Dorne. 

That doesn't mean there wouldn't be such a report. Nor would Robert be the only one hearing about it.

Heck, don't forget, this is the Ned that left in a rage with Robert. They aren't friends at this time. Ned's left Robert in a rage, estranged. It isn't until after Ned comes back, after Starfall and makes up with Robert over Lyanna's death, that they are truly friends again. 

I don't rely on it, but I expect Robert was extremely interested in any report about what Ned was doing in the south at this time.

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

By that infallible logic, Varys has spies in White Harbor, the Watch, Pyke and Tarth, Winterfell and the Wall.

No it does not. It means that Varys gathers information from those places, among others. That he gathers reports from such places from people passing through them, from low level and high level (as he can) people who are in those places. Probably also when he can from other networks who do have people in those places. 
This is precisely his job. Which (with his head) is precarious at this time and needs to be performed in exemplary fashion. 

46 minutes ago, frenin said:

Since you yourself says, who knows who cares, it's unlikely and far fetched.  The most likely answer again is that Ned and Robert had a private chat after he came from Dorne, grieved together over Lyanna's death and Ned brieffed him over Jon.

Except that there are major problems with that scenario. And none at all with mine.
Either remain possible at this stage. But one has huge issues and doesn't fit with the things we see. The other has no issues and fist perfectly.  Wit the current information we have, I'm running with the one that fits.

[corbon]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I’m not sure that this is the only explanation, but I agree that this is a possibility.  A more interesting possibility ( in my mind because I like the idea of characters not being completely honest even within themselves) is that Cat may be shifting the entirety of the blame unto Eddard.  That only Eddard was upset when she brought Ashara’s name up.  

I think only Eddard was upset when Cat bought Ashara's name up. It still reads to me that she was awkwardly, uncertainly, genuinely, questing for understanding not being upset or accusatory about it. His response literally frightened her.

Quote

In fact, it may be that Cat gave as good as she got when they got into this argument, and Cat may have been the real reason that Ashara’s name was never brought up again.  

Well, thats explicitly against the literal recollection she has.
I know that people can be unreliable witnesses, even inside their own heads (eg the unkiss). But we need more (outside) evidence to actually go against someones internal thoughts (eg another witness or seeing it for ourselves).